If the Seattle Shootings prove that CCW permitees shouldn't carry guns in public...

[TPaine7]

What do these incidents prove?

http://sierraleonet.com/acc-staff-kills-police-officer/

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20030426&slug=webchief

http://www.kgw.com/home/WA-deputy-who-killed-in-laws-found-dead-93849369.html

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2011/09/birmingham_officer_kills_wife.html

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2009/09/report_detroit_police_officers.html

http://blog.oregonlive.com/nwheadlines/2010/02/todays_headlines_87.html

http://www.lanejudson.com/OFFICER_INVOLVED_FATALITIES.htm

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Veteran-of-SJPD-Kills-Wife-Self-Cops-134632498.html

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/news/duty-franklin-county-deputy-ki

9 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	Just like the Seattle shooting shows CCW permittees shouldn't carry in public, these incidents show police shouldn't carry in public.
	0 (0%)
	Murders by police don't prove anything, but murder by a CCW holder is conclusive.
	0 (0%)
	Neither rare police murders nor rare CCW murders prove anything.
	9 (100%)
	I resent the imposition of logic into this emotional subject. Facts don't matter; I like armed police and unarmed residents, so leave me alone!
	0 (0%)
	Other (please explain below)
	0 (0%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
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[pnwmom]

1. I think what the Seattle shootings prove

is that we need to find better ways to reduce the chances that a crazy person will obtain and use a gun.

[Scuba]

2. +1

[TPaine7]

3. I agree wholeheartedly...

I agree that we need to find better (legitimate, constitutional) ways to reduce the chances that a crazy person will obtain and use a gun.

Edited to clarify: I agree that we need to find better ways to reduce guns in the hands of the insane, but disagree that a single incident can prove that a policy change is needed.

[pnwmom]

4. But this isn't just a single incident, as you know. Just the latest. n/t

[TPaine7]

5. As far as I know, there was only one CCW permittee involved in Seattle shooting(s).

If I am mistaken on that, I yield the point.

If your point is that there have been other CCW permittees who have murdered, I also concede that point. I just didn't want to be on the record saying that a single event like this can prove a need for a policy change, since no human system can be perfect.

In any case, we appear to agree at least 99+ percent on this point.

[pnwmom]

7. You're right on the facts, and yes, I was referring to other permittees in the past.

And I have a question, if you don't mind.

What do you think about people like Zimmerman, another CCW permittee. He seems unbalanced to me, if not out and out crazy like the Seattle guy. With his record, should he have been allowed to own and carry? Is there any way to stop guys like this without infringing on the 2nd amendment?

[TPaine7]

10. As I understand it, charges were dropped against Zimmerman for assault on a police officer

and he was also accused of violence against a woman but never convicted.

Our culture must change. The fact that someone is related to a judge or police officer shouldn't mean that they can get a pass, but often it does. The simple constitutional reality is that if we drop charges and there is no "due process of law" we cannot later bring up the dropped case (after the statute of limitations has run out, no doubt) and use it to deny a CCW permit.

This is similar to the Laughner(sp?) case. We cannot all sit in class and snicker at the breathtaking mental issues of our classmate and then be shocked when he can legally buy a gun and then use it for mass murder. We have to take (legal, appropriate) action to ensure that he gets the care that he needs.

The closer we approach equal treatment under the law (read "equal prosecution&quot , the less likely a Zimmerman is to get a CCW permit. The more caring and active we are in helping the mentally ill (and the better our system is for reporting problems) the less likely people like the Seattle guy are to get CCW permits.

This is intolerable:

Walt Stawicki, the father of accused killer Ian Stawicki, says he knew his son was troubled, but there was nothing the family could do to get the concealed carry permit revoked.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Family-Seattle-killer-had-a-concealed-weapon-permit-155978205.html

It's not only intolerable; it is not justified by the Second Amendment. There could be emergency hearings (due process of law) to rapidly assess whether a reported person has a mental defect. (With stiff penalties for abusing the system to harass the innocent.)

[pnwmom]

11. Yeah, the father said the only way to get help would have been for them to lie

and say he had threatened them.

I'm sure they're wishing now they had done that. What a tragedy.

[gejohnston]

12. If I were his dad

I would be wishing I had lied.

[PavePusher]

18. Some licenced drivers are "unbalanced" and sometimes kill people deliberately.

What should we do about that? Should we impose rules/laws that restrict the sane and competent drivers?

For the record, Z had not been judged guilty of a disqualifying felony or adjudicated to be mentally incompetent. What other standard would you have that will pass Constitutional review?

[pnwmom]

20. There are provisions in many states to report people who shouldn't have driver's licenses.

For example, elderly people who are losing their abilities.

The reports can be made confidentially and the state then follows up. Of course, all states require drivers to pass tests before they are permitted to drive cars.

http://www.asyouage.com/State_Drivers_License_Renewal_Information.html

[gejohnston]

6. but rare

maybe more rare than cops doing just that.

[pnwmom]

8. That's no comfort to the community reeling from six deaths. n/t

[SGMRTDARMY]

9. I can get on board with this

definitely need better funding for mental health care, certain states need to do a better job reporting prohibited persons to the NICS.

[Hoyt]

13. But the gun obsessed won't do anything if there is the slightest chance their pipeline to guns or

use of guns in public will be restricted.

Is the OP suggesting we should carry guns so that we can shoot the police if the stop us for something we don't think is right? Seems extreme, but not uncommon among the gun culture.

[TPaine7]

17. "Is the OP suggesting we should carry guns so that we can shoot the police...?"

Only you, Hoyt, only you could get that from the OP. The actual point, on the other hand, eludes you.

Why am I not surprised?

[PavePusher]

19. Hoyt is the only entity in the known Universe....

who can extrapolate from Zero to Infinity with no data.

It's a friggin' miracle.

[ileus]

14. I voted to keep the LEO's armed and to disarm rude civilians.

[Simo 1939_1940]

15. How did I (or should I say *we*) guess that?

[ileus]

16. I can't believe no one else will be honest around this dump.

I'd rather have had a "Gunz kill people! Nuff said." option but alas, the OP doesn't love me.