Sat Aug 25, 2012, 01:28 AM

rDigital (2,239 posts)

NYC: Empire State Shooting: ALL bystanders were shot by police

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/08/just-how-many-bystanders-did-new-york-police-shoot/56187/

Update: The Guardian is reporting that the nine bystanders who were shot (that didn't include the shooter's target) were all shot by police, and that Jeffrey Johnson never fired on police.

The most disturbing detail about Friday's fatal shooting in Midtown Manhattan is the fact that the wounded included bystanders shot by police, and the latest news suggests stray police bullets may account for "most or all" of those wounded. Police Commissioner Ray Kelly confirmed that at least some of the injuries came from stray police bullets as cops opened fire on the gunman who aimed at them, but the police haven't said how many. Rather, that detail comes from the math reporters are doing with the number of rounds police have confirmed were fired.

Fortunately, most of the injuries were minor. As one victim who as hit in the arm told The New York Times: "I guess, you know, stuff happens."

The Times' James Barron and David Halbfinger and William K. Rashbaum introduced the arithmetic reporting: "Some of those injured might have been shot by the two police officers, who fired 16 rounds at the gunman, Jeffrey Johnson 58, said Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly — based on the number of people shot and the fact that Mr. Johnson’s gun held only eight rounds." The New York Times Metro twitter account followed up with this accounting: "Johnson had 8 bullets max. Shot 5 at [victim Steve] Ercolino, 2 left in gun, 1 unfired on ground," suggesting that the only ones Johnson fired were at his intended victim -- although that doesn't necessarily mean all of them found their mark.

The killer didn't shoot at police, but the police shot him and 9 other people. The shooter murdered his old boss and didn't fire at anyone else. It sounds like Bloomberg and the other people running NYC hate guns SO much that they don't even want their officers adequately trained.

The NYPD's handguns have triggers on their guns that are OVER 12 pounds to fire. The most important item for accuracy, after proper grip/purchase, is trigger control. It's very hard to control a sub 2 pound gun with a 13 pound trigger. The hoplophobia rampant in NYC has now almost cost 9 people their lives at the hands of New York's Finest.

I am a certified pistol instructor, and I know poor training when I see it. I've taught 70 year olds how to shoot fist sized groups rapid fire at 20 feet. This is without advanced training, just the fundamentals.

Every article I've read on the subject seems to point to a systemic problem within the NYPD with regards to firearms training. NYC has the seventh largest standing army in the world and quite possibly the poorest firearms curriculum as well.

Here's an exerpt from one such article:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2012/02/16/the-nypd-and-the-kahr-k-9-no-substitute-for-training/

The NYPD is apparently incapable of training its officers to keep their finger off the trigger, so instead of increasing or improving their training (which would cost the department money, as well as be an acknowledgement that the training was the problem), they mandate that the gun companies provide them modified weapons.

I don’t dislike Glocks, I love Glocks. I carry a Glock every day, and am in fact wearing one right now as I write this. However, Glocks equipped with the 12-lb New York Plus trigger are an abomination. A few years ago at an editorial roundtable, the InterMedia Outdoors staff had a friendly competition involving a Glock with such a trigger. Everyone involved reported that the pistol was nearly impossible to shoot. G&A’s Handgun Editor Pat Sweeney (a veteran pistol competitor and Master-Class USPSA shooter) won the contest, but to do so, he used a technique he wouldn’t recommend anyone use—he was pulling the trigger with both his index fingers. A 12-lb trigger on a Glock only makes it harder to shoot fast and accurately, thereby increasing the chances that an officer’s bullet won’t end up where he or she intended.

One of the most important steps in firearms training is trigger control. The NYPD couldn't keep their recruits fingers off the trigger until ready to fire. If they can't follow basic firearms discipline, how can they be trusted to possess firearms in public? My students master the 4 rules of firearms safety within hours, why can't the NYPD do it? The only mass shooting in NYC yesterday was carried out by those hired to protect it.

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215 replies	Author	Time	Post
NYC: Empire State Shooting: ALL bystanders were shot by police (Original post)	rDigital	Aug 2012	OP
12+ pound trigger pull?!	Simo 1939_1940	Aug 2012	#1
The 12 pound Glock triggers	ManiacJoe	Aug 2012	#2
I think there's the "NY-1" and the "NY-2" trigger	Euromutt	Aug 2012	#101
It's due to outdated training	Reasonable_Argument	Aug 2012	#108
Glocks have a little slack in their triggers as well before the break.	Ashgrey77	Aug 2012	#134
i'm not a gun user, or any manner of expert; but, i agree with your comments.	marasinghe	Aug 2012	#3
There is a certain tendency in these situations	LuvNewcastle	Aug 2012	#5
If all those bystanders had guns, this wouldn't have happened!	Fuddnik	Aug 2012	#4
Surely you can cite to a Citizen hitting nine bystanders in a self-defense shooting.	PavePusher	Aug 2012	#115
"Professional Police Officers" is now an oxymoron...	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#6
You can't really blame them	Reasonable_Argument	Aug 2012	#8
No, they are 100% to blame. They should know their firearm's capabilities and limitations...	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#9
I understand your anger	Reasonable_Argument	Aug 2012	#10
Go to the range and get fully acclimated to the firearm.	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#11
So you're saying CCW holders who go to the range once a month or more	shadowrider	Aug 2012	#12
Are all CCW holders being paid by tax dollars to protect the public?	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#14
That wasn't in your statement. It's called moving the goalposts. n/t	shadowrider	Aug 2012	#17
Cops are, by definition, police officers. "Police officer" is a profession.	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#18
Significant goalpost movement	shadowrider	Aug 2012	#21
Oy vey. Let me find the crayons...	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#22
Crayons not needed.	shadowrider	Aug 2012	#26
Perhaps those 9 victims should ask for a refund from their paid protectors.	4th law of robotics	Aug 2012	#61
They should certainly be compensated...	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#64
CCW holders who go to the range once a month or more...	atreides1	Aug 2012	#177
I agree on both counts	Reasonable_Argument	Aug 2012	#13
Then, most cops shouldn't be in the job to begin with.	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#15
Most of the posters here	Reasonable_Argument	Aug 2012	#16
I am in favor of preservation of the 2nd amendment.	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#19
Well not to get too far afield	Reasonable_Argument	Aug 2012	#20
Effective: close gun show loopholes nationally.	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#23
Three questions for you.	hack89	Aug 2012	#25
1. Make it federal law.	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#30
the commerce clause could prevent number one	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#38
Most gun shows are put on by vendors from multiple states...	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#41
And those vendors are required to obey all existing gun laws.	hack89	Aug 2012	#44
1. They can't make it federal law - the Constitution gets in the way	hack89	Aug 2012	#42
And you've forgotten about Virginia Tech, where the killer used "normal sized" clips...	friendly_iconoclast	Aug 2012	#91
Would these restrictions apply to police as well? n/t	PavePusher	Aug 2012	#116
A .45 with a clip	AnJo1	Aug 2012	#168
Your answers are NOT effective. Here is why:	GreenStormCloud	Aug 2012	#50
Got it. You're an absolutist regarding the 2nd amendment...	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#51
You ducked the specific reasons I gave.	GreenStormCloud	Aug 2012	#56
My answers were as elementary as can be...	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#63
You made no attempt to rebut my statements. N/T	GreenStormCloud	Aug 2012	#68
...because they didn't merit rebuttal?	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#69
Like I said, That is why my side is winning the national debate on this issue.	GreenStormCloud	Aug 2012	#98
Merit.	Straw Man	Aug 2012	#191
Looks like he's doing this:	shadowrider	Aug 2012	#71
You seem to have cotton in your ears...er..eyes as it were..	pipoman	Aug 2012	#129
Another NRA talking point...	DanTex	Aug 2012	#211
That is not an NRA talking point	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#212
Tell it to the House Judiciary Committee	pipoman	Aug 2012	#213
"I personally find the sport of murdering mammals distasteful,"	rl6214	Aug 2012	#210
It take 3/4 of the states to ratify an amendment.	GreenStormCloud	Aug 2012	#32
Good. Let's get started.	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#33
Shouldn't that be "I'll get started"? Let us know how it goes...	friendly_iconoclast	Aug 2012	#92
You do know that	Jenoch	Aug 2012	#180
This post would appear to be in conflict with your post number 19	jbgood1977	Dec 2012	#215
A NYC Detective told me a story	formercia	Aug 2012	#47
I would have just thrown the whole damn gun away NT	Trunk Monkey	Aug 2012	#49
Sounds like he was either A) professional enough to realize his gun wasn't the answer...	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#52
A real professional would keep all his equipment in top shape.	GreenStormCloud	Aug 2012	#58
He should check EVERY possible aspect of his weapon just as I check every possible aspect...	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#65
Do you fly a Cessna or a 757?	shadowrider	Aug 2012	#73
Do you fire a .22 or a Howitzer?	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#75
I was just curious. for the record, I fire a .40. A .22 is too small and a howitzer is too expensive	shadowrider	Aug 2012	#78
In the spirit of disclosure, and because I respet your candor...	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#79
You too	shadowrider	Aug 2012	#80
Or too damned lazy to clean his gun NT	Trunk Monkey	Aug 2012	#72
Agree to a point	bakpakr	Aug 2012	#89
I don't think you've really thought out your proposals very well.	PavePusher	Aug 2012	#117
Tend to agree with you a bit but	bakpakr	Aug 2012	#122
I disagree, but I do appreciate your reasoned response without insults or slurs n/t	shadowrider	Aug 2012	#125
Have you ever been in a gun fight?	Trunk Monkey	Aug 2012	#34
Well, pilots are trained to NOT lose their heads during an emergency...	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#36
Bet they'd lose their heads if someone was shooting at them while they're trying	shadowrider	Aug 2012	#37
Yes, we are trained to do one thing, first and foremost, in ANY emergency...	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#40
I see your point but I want to ask a couple of questions.	Trunk Monkey	Aug 2012	#48
1) Yes, a choking-smoke-filled cabin.	Cooley Hurd	Aug 2012	#66
Generally speaking, in-flight emergencies	HALO141	Aug 2012	#173
Yes you can. They made a bad decision and should have to stand behind it.	Ashgrey77	Aug 2012	#139
From the videos I've seen,	HALO141	Aug 2012	#174
I wouldn't let ...	holdencaufield	Aug 2012	#7
And these are professionals. Imagine the carnage if some concealed-carry yahoo started shooting.	DanTex	Aug 2012	#24
Please show where a CCWer has mowed down 9 people with missed shots.	GreenStormCloud	Aug 2012	#28
He can't.	friendly_iconoclast	Aug 2012	#94
because the average "yahoo" actually goes the range	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#29
LOL. Yeah, the average yahoo gun nut is better trained than the NYPD. Now that was funny!	DanTex	Aug 2012	#31
Please feel free to cite an instance in which a permit holder hit 9 innocent people NT	Trunk Monkey	Aug 2012	#35
There are plenty of instances of permit holders shooting people accidentally (including themselves).	DanTex	Aug 2012	#39
can you find them?	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#43
You mean like this guy?	DanTex	Aug 2012	#45
Here in Texas we have to meet the same standard that the police do.	GreenStormCloud	Aug 2012	#55
who said anything about chasing anyone?	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#81
Unfortunately, this is just another case of the ever moving goal posts.	rDigital	Aug 2012	#83
With their fantastic requirements only 1%ers like Donald Trump get carry permits	rDigital	Aug 2012	#76
The cops are better trained on the laws of their city/state	glacierbay	Aug 2012	#46
For a police officer, qualification is an annual or biannual chore.	Glaug-Eldare	Aug 2012	#53
Actually yeah	4th law of robotics	Aug 2012	#62
What is your knowledge on NYPD's firearms training?	rDigital	Aug 2012	#82
Gun nuts shoot for pleasure	krispos42	Aug 2012	#147
My S&W Model 642 snub nosed .38 caliber revolver has a trigger pull of about 12 pounds. ...	spin	Aug 2012	#93
Can you cite instances of that actually happening?	4th law of robotics	Aug 2012	#60
Trained professionals?	Straw Man	Aug 2012	#194
Love Your 20/20 Hindsight. (nt)	Paladin	Aug 2012	#27
A black eye for the NYPD.	burnsei sensei	Aug 2012	#54
"The only mass shooting in NYC yesterday was carried out by those hired to protect it."	OneTenthofOnePercent	Aug 2012	#57
Clearly NYC should disarm civilians even more	4th law of robotics	Aug 2012	#59
WTF with the NYT?	BlueNinja	Aug 2012	#67
Every turd in NYC bows to Gloomy-Bloomie, get used to it.	rDigital	Aug 2012	#86
I honestly, cannot fathom, just how incompetent that really is.	virginia mountainman	Aug 2012	#70
Don't worry. Only the police should have guns cause they've been trained and stuff n/t	shadowrider	Aug 2012	#74
At 12 lbs, why don't they issue bows and arrows instead? nt	Xipe Totec	Aug 2012	#77
That's funny you say that because	rDigital	Aug 2012	#87
Interesting to see those who...	sarisataka	Aug 2012	#84
If you're familiar with police firearms training, you'll see that flurry shooting isn't a last	rDigital	Aug 2012	#88
Unfortunately true	sarisataka	Aug 2012	#100
I think we'd do well to step back from the fray for a moment	Glaug-Eldare	Aug 2012	#85
Bloomberg has the NYPD so afraid of guns that the cops don't get trained to use them properly. nt	rDigital	Aug 2012	#90
You are being sarcastic, and it is a good LOL, BUT you are close to the truth I bet...	virginia mountainman	Aug 2012	#95
Perfect example of why regular cops should not be armed.	Starboard Tack	Aug 2012	#96
This isn't England	glacierbay	Aug 2012	#97
Unfortunately you are right. It isn't England in this regard.	Starboard Tack	Aug 2012	#104
That's deep, Mr. Tack. (no sarcasm/joking) nt	rDigital	Aug 2012	#110
Better by far this isn't England...	Clames	Aug 2012	#123
Pity you didn't stay to get an education	Starboard Tack	Aug 2012	#132
No pity. Got a much better one in this country.	Clames	Aug 2012	#141
I don't blame them. Much easier here.	Starboard Tack	Aug 2012	#146
Typical snide bullshit.	Straw Man	Aug 2012	#195
Still living up to your SN I see.	Starboard Tack	Aug 2012	#205
Still avoiding addressing the content of my posts, I see.	Straw Man	Aug 2012	#214
If NYC cops would learn	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#99
Right! It's all about the triggers.	Starboard Tack	Aug 2012	#105
the triggers are because of lousy training	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#106
Are you seriously	Jenoch	Aug 2012	#112
I have seen it. Good movie. Emphasis on "movie"	Starboard Tack	Aug 2012	#135
but UK and the US are different societies	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#136
Every society is different to a degree.	Starboard Tack	Aug 2012	#138
I think what we are seeing with Mr. Tack is something in the UK akin...	Clames	Aug 2012	#144
You are out of your mind.	Jenoch	Aug 2012	#137
Why don't you ask some UK cops what it is like?	Starboard Tack	Aug 2012	#145
Why would asking a UK	Jenoch	Aug 2012	#148
If you think being a cop is about "enforcing laws" then you just don't get it	Starboard Tack	Aug 2012	#149
Try again.	oneshooter	Aug 2012	#150
Mea culpa. I should have said LAPD	Starboard Tack	Aug 2012	#157
You've got to be pulling my chain here. Where are the cameras?	Jenoch	Aug 2012	#151
You are absolutely correct. So why do they need guns?	Starboard Tack	Aug 2012	#158
You may have a point there	glacierbay	Aug 2012	#159
I understand your position and your reaction to my suggestion.	Starboard Tack	Aug 2012	#160
Here's where you fail	glacierbay	Aug 2012	#162
More alike than different.	Starboard Tack	Aug 2012	#165
Again, you've got to be kidding me.	Jenoch	Aug 2012	#163
The 'beat' cops are the ones that run into trouble.	Jenoch	Aug 2012	#161
"...the average criminal mind....plays by a set of rules..."?????	Jenoch	Aug 2012	#142
We just need better cops.	Union Scribe	Aug 2012	#121
Without a gun and bullets, this wouldn't happen	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#102
A gun never saved anyone?	glacierbay	Aug 2012	#103
live by the gun, die by the gun	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#111
prime example	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#113
I put this into Google Translate	Union Scribe	Aug 2012	#119
Babelfish worked alot better...	OneTenthofOnePercent	Aug 2012	#131
"Guns do not buy freedom"	PavePusher	Aug 2012	#120
this has nothing to do with the USA or the NRA	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#124
Armed self-defense stories are posted regularly in this group.	GreenStormCloud	Aug 2012	#152
just statistical noise	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#156
I'm having trouble translating what you say into English	AnJo1	Aug 2012	#166
I don't want to get rid of you, just the #1 biggest lobby NRA	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#167
$35.00X4.5 Million=$157,000,000	glacierbay	Aug 2012	#169
more fuzzy math	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#170
So you're an accountant?	glacierbay	Aug 2012	#171
4.3 million members is just 1.5% of the population of USA.	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#186
23,000 members is just 0.08% of the population of the US	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#188
he is correct-guns are an abomination.	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#190
Bill Crystal agrees with him	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#192
What you fail to address is that there are 80-90 million more gun owners	glacierbay	Aug 2012	#196
Nothing wrong with an audit if there is nothing to hide?	AnJo1	Aug 2012	#200
it's like at the airport	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#202
So your rights trump mine?	AnJo1	Aug 2012	#204
Can you back up your claim that the NRA is "backing" Zimmerman?	AnJo1	Aug 2012	#181
You are moving the goal posts.	GreenStormCloud	Aug 2012	#172
however, in reality, this just forgets one major thing	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#175
Say what?? I understand all the words, but the sentences make no sense.	AnJo1	Aug 2012	#182
Except for suicide, you are grossly wrong.	GreenStormCloud	Aug 2012	#183
homicide is a very broad term	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#187
not that many	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#189
Take a closer look at my post.	GreenStormCloud	Aug 2012	#193
it's like the old saying	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#197
1,981 Murdered by knife in 2007	GreenStormCloud	Aug 2012	#203
No one can speak for "the gun people" since we come in many varieties	AnJo1	Aug 2012	#198
This message was self-deleted by its author	Simo 1939_1940	Aug 2012	#153
I'm with you, brother/sister!	Simo 1939_1940	Aug 2012	#154
Brilliant satire!!!	TPaine7	Aug 2012	#107
Yes...we need Superman...nt	Union Scribe	Aug 2012	#109
Your fucking hero Bloomers walked onto the crime scene shortly after it was secured....	PavePusher	Aug 2012	#118
Some info on NYPD training...	PavePusher	Aug 2012	#114
Training is one factor. Switching from Glocks to double-action/single-action pistols would help.	AnotherMcIntosh	Aug 2012	#126
Not really.	Ashgrey77	Aug 2012	#140
Yes really.	AnotherMcIntosh	Aug 2012	#143
Stock Glock has a 5.5 pound pull.	Ashgrey77	Aug 2012	#155
You're sick	Kolesar	Aug 2012	#127
It's hard to swallow, but it's the truth. nt	rDigital	Aug 2012	#133
HUGE Black Eye for Mayor Bloomberg	Iggy	Aug 2012	#128
A 12# trigger on a police weapon is the dumbest	pipoman	Aug 2012	#130
To be fair...	HALO141	Aug 2012	#164
and to be fair to Mayor Mike-	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#176
"if the grudge holder did not have a gun"	HALO141	Aug 2012	#178
Thankfully NY has laws against tourists bringing their guns in	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#184
Say what?	Straw Man	Aug 2012	#199
get rid of the blue wall of silence for one thing &	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#201
Oh, I get it.	HALO141	Aug 2012	#206
Tourists with guns isn't a problem for other states.	GreenStormCloud	Aug 2012	#207
I love Texas and I go there without a gun	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#208
I respect your right to that decision, if not the decision itself.	GreenStormCloud	Aug 2012	#209
Let me get this straight	glacierbay	Aug 2012	#179
outrageous was having a shoot out on 34th street	graham4anything	Aug 2012	#185

Response to rDigital (Original post)

Sat Aug 25, 2012, 01:57 AM

Simo 1939_1940 (768 posts)

1. 12+ pound trigger pull?!

I would have never believed it. The stupidity burns.

NYC: Empire State Shooting: ALL bystanders were shot by police

1. 12+ pound trigger pull?!

2. The 12 pound Glock triggers

101. I think there's the "NY-1" and the "NY-2" trigger

108. It's due to outdated training

134. Glocks have a little slack in their triggers as well before the break.

3. i'm not a gun user, or any manner of expert; but, i agree with your comments.

5. There is a certain tendency in these situations

4. If all those bystanders had guns, this wouldn't have happened!

115. Surely you can cite to a Citizen hitting nine bystanders in a self-defense shooting.

6. "Professional Police Officers" is now an oxymoron...

8. You can't really blame them

9. No, they are 100% to blame. They should know their firearm's capabilities and limitations...

10. I understand your anger

11. Go to the range and get fully acclimated to the firearm.

12. So you're saying CCW holders who go to the range once a month or more

14. Are all CCW holders being paid by tax dollars to protect the public?

17. That wasn't in your statement. It's called moving the goalposts. n/t

18. Cops are, by definition, police officers. "Police officer" is a profession.

21. Significant goalpost movement

22. Oy vey. Let me find the crayons...

26. Crayons not needed.

61. Perhaps those 9 victims should ask for a refund from their paid protectors.

64. They should certainly be compensated...

177. CCW holders who go to the range once a month or more...

13. I agree on both counts

15. Then, most cops shouldn't be in the job to begin with.

16. Most of the posters here

19. I am in favor of preservation of the 2nd amendment.

20. Well not to get too far afield

23. Effective: close gun show loopholes nationally.

25. Three questions for you.

30. 1. Make it federal law.

38. the commerce clause could prevent number one

41. Most gun shows are put on by vendors from multiple states...

44. And those vendors are required to obey all existing gun laws.

42. 1. They can't make it federal law - the Constitution gets in the way

91. And *you've* forgotten about Virginia Tech, where the killer used "normal sized" clips...

116. Would these restrictions apply to police as well? n/t

168. A .45 with a clip

50. Your answers are NOT effective. Here is why:

51. Got it. You're an absolutist regarding the 2nd amendment...

56. You ducked the specific reasons I gave.

63. My answers were as elementary as can be...

68. You made no attempt to rebut my statements. N/T

69. ...because they didn't merit rebuttal?

98. Like I said, That is why my side is winning the national debate on this issue.

191. Merit.

71. Looks like he's doing this:

129. You seem to have cotton in your ears...er..eyes as it were..

211. Another NRA talking point...

212. That is not an NRA talking point

213. Tell it to the House Judiciary Committee

210. "I personally find the sport of murdering mammals distasteful,"

32. It take 3/4 of the states to ratify an amendment.

33. Good. Let's get started.

92. Shouldn't that be "I'll get started"? Let us know how it goes...

180. You do know that

215. This post would appear to be in conflict with your post number 19

47. A NYC Detective told me a story

49. I would have just thrown the whole damn gun away NT

52. Sounds like he was either A) professional enough to realize his gun wasn't the answer...

58. A real professional would keep all his equipment in top shape.

65. He should check EVERY possible aspect of his weapon just as I check every possible aspect...

73. Do you fly a Cessna or a 757?

75. Do you fire a .22 or a Howitzer?

78. I was just curious. for the record, I fire a .40. A .22 is too small and a howitzer is too expensive

79. In the spirit of disclosure, and because I respet your candor...

80. You too

72. Or too damned lazy to clean his gun NT

89. Agree to a point

117. I don't think you've really thought out your proposals very well.

122. Tend to agree with you a bit but

125. I disagree, but I do appreciate your reasoned response without insults or slurs n/t

34. Have you ever been in a gun fight?

36. Well, pilots are trained to NOT lose their heads during an emergency...

37. Bet they'd lose their heads if someone was shooting at them while they're trying

40. Yes, we are trained to do one thing, first and foremost, in ANY emergency...

48. I see your point but I want to ask a couple of questions.

66. 1) Yes, a choking-smoke-filled cabin.

91. And you've forgotten about Virginia Tech, where the killer used "normal sized" clips...