Clergy call for statewide gun registration

[SecularMotion]

In an attempt to call attention to the city’s increasing violence, a coalition of Chicago clergy announced an effort Friday to gather 100,000 signatures on a petition to support legislation that would require gun owners statewide to register their weapons.

The citywide petition drive, starting this weekend and continuing until the state legislature reconvenes in November, seeks to send a message to elected officials that the owners of assault weapons should have to register the devices, said the Rev. Ira J. Acree, who helped organize the movement.

“Our sons and daughters are dying and being gunned down,” said Acree, who is pastor of Greater St. John Bible Church in Austin, a community that has been hit hard by gun violence. “Rifles, AK-47’s and machine guns should not be in the hands of ordinary citizens. Nobody needs an assault weapon that was made for the military.”

Chicago residents already register their firearms since the city allowed handgun ownership for the first time in decades in 2010 after the U.S. Supreme Court struck down the city’s handgun ban.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-clergy-call-for-statewide-gun-registration-20120907,0,6465754.story

[holdencaufield]

1. So -- just to be clear ...

Clergy in opposition to a woman's right to choose -- BAD?

Clergy in opposition to the RKBA -- Good?

[Missycim]

5. The hypocrisy is simply delicious

isnt it?

[djean111]

2. Those two things are not analogous in any way.

As a woman, I don't consider wanting to restrict or outright dictate what I can do with my body on the same playing field with wanting gun registration for assault weapons.
Just to be clear.
Hey, they didn't demand getting rid of guns, so look at the bright side - maybe they want to give everyone, every child, everyone - a gun! As long as it is registered.
What is the problem with wanting all assault weapons registered? Yeah, I know criminals don't register guns. But at least there is a starting point when someone is murdered.

[Missycim]

6. Hey as a woman do you want to register to

get an abortion? or vote? or any other right enjoyed by Americans?


I don't care if you think owning a gun is a civil right, the USSC disagrees with you and its now settled law.

[GreenStormCloud]

10. What would registration accomplish?

After using a gun for any criminal purpose, criminals rarely leave the gun behind. They aren't that stupid. If they fire a shot with it they know to throw it in a river. Unless the criminal is captured with the gun you don't have a gun to trace back to anybody.

Further, my law (5th Amendment) criminals can't be made to register their guns.

So exactly what do you expect registration to accomplish?

Further, rifles and shotguns are used in only about 3% of gun crimes, the other 97% being handguns. So what will registration of handguns accomplish.

Machineguns are already tightly controlled, have been since 1934. Legal machine guns have only been used twice in a crime since then, and one of those was by a cop using a police sub-machinegun. So what is the problem. It seems that current laws are working.

[glacierbay]

12. How is it a starting point when someone is murdered?

All that's going to be recovered most of the time is the spent brass and bullets, how does registration help? And just what is an "assault weapon"? It can be anything from a 2X4 to a main battle tank, to an F-22 Raptor.
I hate to throw a wet blanket on your registration thing, but it just won't work, and I speak from years of experience.
No disrespect intended, but registration will accomplish nothing as far as reducing the crime rate.

[spin]

3. The gun violence in Chicago is largely caused by drug gang violence. ...

July 11, 2012 6:36 PM

Chicago police sergeant: "Tribal warfare" on the streets

CBS News) CHICAGO - Chicago is in the grips of a deadly gang war. At least 275 people have been killed in the city so far this year and many more have been shot, many of them innocent bystanders to the gang violence. Among the latest victims were 12- and 13-year-old girls shot Tuesday night. They survived.

Sgt. Matt Little leads one of the teams in Chicago's Gang Enforcement Unit. There are about 200 such officers in the city-- versus 100,000 gang members.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57470618/chicago-police-sergeant-tribal-warfare-on-the-streets/

August 23, 2012 7:19 PM

Mexican drug cartels fight turf battles in Chicago

(CBS News) CHICAGO - Gun violence is out of control in Chicago. Just last night, there were eight shootings, two of them deadly.

***snip***

As it stands now, at least three major Mexican cartels are battling over control of billions of dollars of marijuana, cocaine and -- increasingly -- heroin in this city. That includes the ultra-violent Zetas and the powerful Sinaloa cartel, run by its shadowy leader Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman

***snip***

More than ever, Chicago's problem is turning into a Midwest problem. Cartel operations are also spreading to Milwaukee, St. Louis and Detroit.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57499523/mexican-drug-cartels-fight-turf-battles-in-chicago/

If CBS news is correct and Mexican drug cartels are largely responsible for this violence, statewide gun registration would do little to reduce gun crime in Chicago. Mexico has extremely strict gun laws and yet the cartels are well armed.

Even banning and confiscating every firearm owned by honest people in Illinois (if that was possible) would do nothing to address this problem.

The sad truth is that our nation's War on Drugs was lost decades ago. It enabled enormous profits to be made by organized gangs involved in the smuggling and distribution of drugs and the result has been the tragic violence in both Mexico and the United States caused by turf warfare between drug gangs.

I have no idea how our nation can effectively address this problem . Everything we try may be too little, too late.

[BigAlanMac]

4. Again --- Just to be clear

In the last fifty years, exactly how many Chicago residents have been shot by an "assault weapon"?

That is, how many people have been shot with an AR-15 or AK-47 type gun and how many shootings have there been where a machine gun was used?

[Missycim]

7. But they wont

stop at this, if we give them this then they will want a registration on hand guns, then a little something else. etc etc

[ileus]

8. So is it "should not be in the hands" or we just want you to register them?

After a "successful" registration I would have to wonder what their next goal would be.

[gejohnston]

9. machine guns?

they have been registered since 1934. Due to their expense, few people actually owned them. While the mob did buy a few, though dummy security companies, roving bandits like Dillinger stole theirs from police and national guard armories.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. Yet another Google dump

Last edited Sat Sep 8, 2012, 04:54 PM - Edit history (1)

[SecularMotion]

15. Thanks for the kick

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. Just making them easy to find later and cite as examples

[SecularMotion]

21. Thanks again

[Warren Stupidity]

23. Examples of what?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. Google Dumping

[Warren Stupidity]

31. what the heck is that?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. A good place to start is this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117269646

[ManiacJoe]

36. Dumping news articles into the forum...

without any comments to start a conversation about why the article was posted.

[Warren Stupidity]

37. Unlike the thousands of similar "dumps" from your side?

Is this some new pseudo crime you've invented? Some new campaign to oust another pro gun control voice? Not enough echo in here for you guys yet?

This is the forum for posting exactly this sort of thing. It can't be posted anywhere else.

[eqfan592]

43. I think the difference is posting something with personal commentary...

...vs just posting something without commentary.

[ManiacJoe]

45. You need to work on your reading comprehension.

Posting news articles with no comments is not appreciated, regardless of who does it or his position on guns is. "My" side, "your" side, it does not matter.

If the news article is not worth commenting on, it is not worth posting in the first place. Why waste our time with them?

[SecularMotion]

46. News and opinion pieces are posted without comment in many forums and groups on DU

I don't understand why it gets the gunners so upset.

I haven't seen any other complaints outside of the gungeon.

[ManiacJoe]

67. This is exactly the point.

The news and opinion pieces can be seen elsewhere. Why post them here if there is nothing worth commenting on in them?

[Warren Stupidity]

75. They are inventing new things to be outraged about

1. they are horribly persecuted by the DU jury system.
2. the google dumps are perhaps more than they can bear.

That and all this picking on the NRA, an organization that has actually backed a democrat, or even maybe two. Never mind Ted Nugent.

[gejohnston]

76. has backed several

even has backed a self described socialist against a Republican.

[DanTex]

27. Example of an actual Democrat posting in the gungeon.

[gejohnston]

28. are you saying the DNC

was pandering to the NRA by letting Ted Strickland speak? Are you saying Jerry Brown isn't a real Democrat?

[Atypical Liberal]

32. Right, because anyone who supports the right to keep and bear arms can't really be a Democrat. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

34. That happens many times daily

[Warren Stupidity]

62. How horrible for you to have to put up with postings here you disagree with

that do not contain a one line quip on the end. I feel your pain. Perhaps if the current campaign to ban "google dumps" in the gungeon is successful, you and your pals will not have to be assaulted by this nonsense anymore.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

73. I was referring to DT's comment about real Democrats posting, pointing out that I and other real

Last edited Mon Sep 10, 2012, 08:27 PM - Edit history (1)

Democrats post often in the Gun Control & RKBA group (and elsewhere on DU). I don't recall if it was DT or not who was annoyed that I suggested that the ongoing Google dumps be matched one for one. Whomever it was got apoplectic while many of us were bemused.

As for Google dumping, in the thread I cited, I offered up some suggestions as to what was Google dumping was and what was not. It starts with relevant commentary within the scope of the SOP, not just "yup" or nothing at all.

Note also that I do not support the "current campaign to ban Google dumps", since it is a fuzzy line at best. However, if it becomes part of the SOP, I would like the definitions to be as clear as possible. That way we won't having more whiny threads in Meta complaining about Krispos42 taking "unilateral" action from trolls.

[slackmaster]

14. Illinois has already registered every lawful gun owner

People are the real issue. Gun registries are useless for preventing misuse of firearms.

[rrneck]

16. Register the clergy first. nt

[Reasonable_Argument]

17. Big +1

They've brain washed people, like my mother, into believing that disasters are a result of "God being upset" or that saying the rosary will afford them special protection. They're reckless and dangerous.

[Oneka]

18. If this group of clergy

are serious about advancing the cause of
less violence, perhaps they should exclude preachers who attempt to incite violence. Just sayin.
http://m.prnewswire.com/news-releases/isra-chicago-priest-calls-for-murder-of-gun-shop-owner-58639622.html

Allowing Fleger into thier group, pretty much destroys any credibility they have,on the , anti violence stance.
Of course if thier real goal is just a gun ban , then:

Rifles, AK47's and machine guns should not be in the hands of ordinary citizens

Fleger fits right in.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

29. I'd say we'd be...

...better served by keeping the youth away from Pfleger and maybe some others of the clergy (especially the Catholic flavor of clergy) and the football coaches and...


I'm actually okay with registering strategic assault weapons but I don't really expect the predominantly uninformed and rather technically disinterested anti-rights crowd to understand the difference between an AK-47 and an AC-47.

[PavePusher]

19. More ignorant, arrogant ass-hattery out of the nether regions of religion.

Whodathunkit...?

Edit: When are we going to "register" the religion religionists? And their sermons, books, papers, places of worship, meeting times, and public pronouncements? Not to mention the required government screening, licences, taxes, etc.....

[rl6214]

22. Good thing you and I don't approve of this sort of thing, right?

Because we both know the bad guys wouldn't register theirs.

[Union Scribe]

25. I can just see it now

Crip 1: Hey, can you get someone to cover my shift dealing tonight?

Crip 2: Sure, what's up?

Crip 1: Oh, I'm going to the police station to register my SKS.

Crip 2: You haven't already? Shit, I registered my MAC-10 a week ago!

Crip 1: I know, I know.

Crip 2: Are we still going to burn that fucker's house down tonight? I've got the firebombs.

Crip 1: Oh hell yeah, for sure. Unless there's a line at the registration. I'll text you.

[gejohnston]

26. so the NFA paperwork

finally came in for the firebombs?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

30. ;) It's under...

...other destructive devices...

[Union Scribe]

40. Yeah, their LEO letter of endorsement got hung up

for whatever reason

[Atypical Liberal]

33. But the second amendment is ABOUT the military!

“Our sons and daughters are dying and being gunned down,” said Acree, who is pastor of Greater St. John Bible Church in Austin, a community that has been hit hard by gun violence. “Rifles, AK-47’s and machine guns should not be in the hands of ordinary citizens. Nobody needs an assault weapon that was made for the military.”

But the second amendment is precisely about keeping military-grade small arms in the hands of civilians so that they can function as military forces!

What sort of arms does he think they ought to use to be military forces? Pop-guns?

[Warren Stupidity]

38. then indeed we should ban pistols and other non-military weapons

and the military weapons in the hands of the civilian militia should be strictly regulated, as they are for example in switzerland. Also, as simply having such a weapon is useless for such purposes if you are not also trained not only in its use but in its use within a military organization, the well regulated civilian militia must also be trained to be a military organization.

But that interpretation has been long ignored. It was finally put to death by the Robert's court, which while mouthing "original intent" finds one way after another to re-invent a document they claim should never be altered.

[gejohnston]

39. pistols are military weapons

the pistol or assault rifle in the Swiss militia is government property until you leave. Once your time is up, the rifle is converted to semi auto only and both become your personal property. Of course, not of that has anything to do with privately owned guns bought at the local gun store.
Not only was it long ignored, it never existed as an argument until the 1930s.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/switzerland

[Atypical Liberal]

42. Pistols are military weapons.

then indeed we should ban pistols and other non-military weapons

Pistols are military weapons.

and the military weapons in the hands of the civilian militia should be strictly regulated, as they are for example in switzerland.

Except this is not Switzerland. This is the United States of America, and per our Constitution, the people are to keep and bear arms suitable for use in a militia, and that right shall not be infringed.

I'm willing to endure some restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms, so long as they do not undermine the intent of the second amendment.

Also, as simply having such a weapon is useless for such purposes if you are not also trained not only in its use but in its use within a military organization, the well regulated civilian militia must also be trained to be a military organization.

Having a gun and no training is indeed bad when you need a gun. Having neither a gun nor training is worse. Fortunately, I train at least monthly.

[eqfan592]

44. That interpretation had been long ignored for good reason.

It simply lacks validity.

[Marengo]

47. Handguns are not used by the military in any capacity?

[Warren Stupidity]

48. swords are still used

but really they are not at all relevant to a well regulated militia.

Oh and I agree that the current court has abolished the original intent of the 2A. That is fine except of course that the majority on the current court holds the opinion that they are purveyors of "original intent", except of course when the aren't.

The original intent of the 2A was all about local militias. That really isn't even debatable, unless one wants to deny the validity of the contemporary accounts of the debate over the bill of rights.

[holdencaufield]

49. "The original intent of the 2A was all about local militias"

Actually -- it isn't debatable -- the Supreme Court of the US has ruled you're wrong (over and over again)

[Warren Stupidity]

55. the USSC is free to ignore original intent

and has done so under the Robert's court with respect to the 2A.

[holdencaufield]

60. I COULD take your word for that ...

... OR... I could take the interpretation of the foremost legal minds of the country. Hmmmm ... I think I'll go with the justices if you don't mind.

[Warren Stupidity]

64. yes you would go with the republican court.

Would you also agree with their other impressive decisions, e.g. Bush v Gore, Citizens United? No? Not so foremost on those decisions?

[friendly_iconoclast]

77. It's also President Obama's stated opinion. Is *he* wrong, in your estimation?

I daresay he knows more about Constitutional law than you do..

http://azstarnet.com/news/opinion/mailbag/president-obama-we-must-seek-agreement-on-gun-reforms/article_011e7118-8951-5206-a878-39bfbc9dc89d.html#ixzz1kV5SUkry

" ...Now, like the majority of Americans, I believe that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to bear arms. And the courts have settled that as the law of the land. In this country, we have a strong tradition of gun ownership that's handed from generation to generation. Hunting and shooting are part of our national heritage. And, in fact, my administration has not curtailed the rights of gun owners - it has expanded them, including allowing people to carry their guns in national parks and wildlife refuges.

The fact is, almost all gun owners in America are highly responsible. They're our friends and neighbors. They buy their guns legally and use them safely, whether for hunting or target shooting, collection or protection. And that's something that gun-safety advocates need to accept..."

And now, let me ask you a question- What's your opinion of United States v. Jones?


http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/united-states-v-jones/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117211085#post62

62. Don't you have just a *wee* bit of consternation about United States v Jones?

A 9-0 decision throwing out warrantless surveillance via GPS- with the opinion written by the Great Satan Scalia?

What to do, what to do- 1) agree with Scalia's opinion (gasp!), 2)throw in with the 'surveillance state' types like Bolton and Woo, or 3) pretend it doesn't exist?

So far, the other Scalia haters have gone for option #3. How about you?...

And nine months later, the Scalia bashers have yet to say word one about this. I guess it messes up their genetic/association fallacies..

[friendly_iconoclast]

82. Now, *there's* a way to quiet the SC critics- mention United States v. Jones.

That's the second time that I know of they suddenly disappeared when it was brought up....

[Marengo]

80. I wasn't asking about swords, and you didn't answer the question that was posed...

Are pistols not used by the military?

[oneshooter]

84. Yes they are. The current issue weapon is the Beretta M92 in 9mm.

However the USMC has recently readopted the Colt 1911a1in45 ACP.

Beretta M92 9mm

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_92&h=215&w=300&sz=13&tbnid=vFtBmlj8ZM7A8M:&tbnh=100&tbnw=139&zoom=1&usg=__bWdVxaAR6vsXwpiuvMeTFiZmiZk=&docid=yy4XRb7Qs-fQXM&sa=X&ei=jb1PUJi3Ksr02QXI54DABg&ved=0CDEQ9QEwAQ&dur=1760

Colt 1911a1 45ACP

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.justpistols.co.uk/mt1911a1.htm&h=770&w=800&sz=89&tbnid=BhehClkZ4HsffM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=105&zoom=1&usg=__a-zdX7j7LhC-y9juvi0GGiaCTT8=&docid=iIU6KshMNidNxM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ub5PUIrbDKrs2QXWkoGQBg&sqi=2&ved=0CB8Q9QEwAA&dur=788

[4th law of robotics]

51. Most of the bans pushed have been on "military style" weapons

so we should ban military and non-military weapons leaving us with . . . what? Hypothetical weapons?

[holdencaufield]

56. Pretty much every type of weapon ...

... from blunderbuss to assault rifle has been used by the military at one time or another. Why don't we just say that civilians are free to use any weapon not CURRENTLY used by the military.

So, I'll take my Sherman Tank now.

[4th law of robotics]

57. Swords were used by the military for a long time

longer than guns. Same with bows and knives and axes.

More people have been killed by bows over the years than by my military style handgun.

[Warren Stupidity]

61. I was agreeing with the post I responded to.

yes the original intent of the 2A would allow citizens to own military class 'arms'. Interpreted on an original intent basis it would permit the regulation of all other weapons by the states or the federal government as they saw fit. It would only protect the right of citizens to own weapons specifically for the purpose of participating in a local militia.

I also agree that that interpretation, the original intent one, has been discarded and the 2A has devolved into an individual right to own assorted non-military class weapons. In other words, from an "original intent" perspective, the 2A has been stood on its head.

[holdencaufield]

68. Hypothetical weapons?

You can take my PHASER when you pry it from my cold, dead hand.

[4th law of robotics]

69. The 2nd amendment guarantees your right to have a phaser

hypothetically.

Once phasers actually exist they will be banned. But until then your rights are sacrosanct.

[holdencaufield]

71. Great!

Show me to them Klingons!

Note to self -- don't wear RED when hunting Klingons

[trouble.smith]

41. Question. What inevitably happens after a mass firearms registration?

[Warren Stupidity]

53. In australia registration and banning of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns

proceeded with full respect for property rights. There was no mass confiscation other than the compensated and authorized taking of banned weapons. Australians continue to purchase and own guns not covered by the ban. The world didn't end. Australia did introduce additional regulation on magazine capacity after another multiple shooting incident in 2002. Again, the world didn't end, and Australians continued to be able to own guns not covered by the regulations.

it turns out that australia and nazi germany are very different social and political systems.

[holdencaufield]

58. Do you even realize what you're saying?

"There was no mass confiscation other than the compensated and authorized taking of banned weapons"

When you take something from someone that they wouldn't freely give you -- that's either theft (if it's done privately) or confiscation (if it's done by the government). You can't compensate someone from something taken against their will.

And for the record, all shotguns (except pumps and semi-autos) are category A firearms in Australia (the easiest to acquire). Australia DOES have magazine restrictions on handguns.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. I'm saying that nothing more occurred. Tyranny did not ensue. Gun ownership remained legal.

Confiscation with compensation and due process - that is a legal taking - is an entirely consistent, legal, and non tyrannical act of government.

Australia is an example of how gun regulation can be done reasonably. Australians can still own guns. That is why the NRA has to lie about what happened.

[gejohnston]

65. and their murder rate remained the same

more accurately continued to drop at the same rate it had been already before the ban.

[holdencaufield]

66. Australians can own guns ...

... but they can be easily confiscated (and have been confiscated in the past -- legally stolen)

I own weapons in Australia by virtue of belonging to THREE different shooting associations. Each weapons is registered, police can (and do) check my residence at any time to make sure the weapons are secured according to law in the exact location in specified in the permit. The designated weapons locker must in a fixed position in the home -- secured to the building. If weapons are transferred to another location for storage (even a gunsmith for repair) that has to be reported to the police within 24-hours.

Police could -- at anytime -- confiscate every privately legally-owned firearm in the country in a day. No one knows how many illegal weapons there are in Australia -- but some speculate that the number could equal the number of legal weapons because bike gangs regularly manufacture STEN, Sterling and Owen guns for their needs and illegal sales.

You have to show just-cause to even apply for a firearms license (including a BB-gun) and self-defence is not a valid reason for applying for a firearms license (only hunting, target shooting, and professional need).

Australian firearm laws are draconian and unnecessary and incidents of gun deaths are as high today as they were in pre-ban days so you can't even make the argument that they make Australians safer.

[4th law of robotics]

72. So except for taking people's property using the force of law

all property rights were respected?

Great. By that logic no government has ever violated any human rights because when they did they always had official government sanction to do so.

No native were removed forcibly from their lands in the US except by federal decree. So . . .

[4th law of robotics]

50. Religion in the wrong hands has led to thousands/millions of deaths

I wouldn't say though that it should be restricted for everyone based on that.

I will instead hold those who abuse such freedoms responsible for their own actions.

[holdencaufield]

52. Register bibles?

[4th law of robotics]

54. I think it's only fair

not as any precursor to a ban or anything.

It'd just be nice to know where all those bible-wielders are. Just in case . . .

Heck if they aren't guilty of any crimes why would they object to being placed on a national registry?

[holdencaufield]

59. "When I was a boy ...

Last edited Mon Sep 10, 2012, 10:41 AM - Edit history (1)

... my father gave me a bullet and I carried it with me always in my breast pocket. One day, a crazed televangelist threw a Gideon Bible out of a hotel room window, striking me in the chest. The doctors say the bible would have went through my heart if not for the bullet"

-- Woody Allen

[GreenStormCloud]

70. Since when do they get to say what people need?

The U.S. does not have a Dept. of Needs. Gun owners do not have to justify our wants to them.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

74. For years the black churches have been what held the communities together

Today not so much. Like many, I was raised in one, but found my own way early, much to the chagrin of my mother(s). Today it is less and less relevant, particularly in the lives of young black men.

The clergy, using their first amendment rights can call for whatever they want...though somehow it mostly seems to be repression of well established rights like abortion and private firearms ownership.

[upaloopa]

78. Gunners want no restriction on gun ownership

The increase in gun violence relates to the increase in guns in this country.
They will say anything to convince you that you are powerless to do anything about it.
Gun fanaticism is not good for society as a whole.

[gejohnston]

79. why has it been dropping?

even with more guns? Legal gun sales are up in Canada and Australia. Can you cite an example of complete deregulation?

[DonP]

81. What increase in gun violence?

Or are you another one that thinks the FBI is just a shill for the NRA?

Violent crime, including crime with guns continues to shrink, now it's around 1964 levels. But everybody knows that those assholes at the FBI, under Holder, just do what the NRA tells them too, right?

[slackmaster]

83. That's just nonsense, upaloopa.

The increase in gun violence relates to the increase in guns in this country.

What increase in gun violence? Show your source.

ETA on second thought, please DON'T show your source. It would probably violate our Community Standards and common decency.