Gun Range Suicides

[mikeb302000]

Last edited Wed Oct 24, 2012, 01:26 AM - Edit history (2)

http://www.news-press.com/article/20121016/NEWS0110/310160014/Can-t-stop-gun-range-suicides-experts-say?odyssey=mod|newswell|text||s

Suicides like the one Sunday at a Fort Myers gun range, while not common, are difficult to prevent, local firearms experts say.

Richard Arlen Kelley, 75, of Fort Myers, committed suicide at Fowler Firearms and Gun Range on Fowler Avenue. He had taken shooting practice for about 20 minutes, a store official said Monday. Josh Hackman, general manager at the Fowler store, said there’s nothing anyone at the store could have done to prevent Kelley from shooting himself.


“He came in, showed his ID, signed the waiver, we showed him how to use the gun, and then he shot for about 20 minutes,” he said. “Then he shot himself. That was it.”

The biased spin job of an article goes on to say "The News-Press archives show at least six other similar suicides at gun ranges around the United States in the past three years." Now, we know that's some shabby archives they've got there. A casual look shows more than that. The Scottsdale Gun Club has had half that themselves, for crying out loud.

No, this problem is a lot more widespread than the pro gun crowd would have us believe. That's their strategy, to lie about the extent of a problem and then divide by all the guns in the entire country and say the percentage is insignificant. They combine that approach with the one in the article in which they claim nothing can be done about it. But that's usually self-serving nonsense.

The problem with all their justifications is we're talking about lives, human lives. Renting guns to suicidal people is wrong and every effort should be made to stop it.

What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
Cross posted at Mikeb302000

[Reasonable_Argument]

1. How exactally do you propose

A store owner to instantly assess the mental state, with perfect accuracy, of everyone who walks through their doors?

[mikeb302000]

19. Of course not with perfect accuracy.

But, an effort must be made. Maybe even a waiting period. Why not require a reservation of 24 hours? Don't you think that would help?

[Reasonable_Argument]

20. No nt

[Glaug-Eldare]

21. I hope that's a joke, but I doubt it is.

What exactly are you suggesting? Requiring me to make an advance reservation to shoot at a gun range? Should I sleep over at the range so they can observe me? And no, an asinine, POINTLESS restriction like that would accomplish NOTHING.

[mikeb302000]

22. It would prevent the depressed guy from using the range to kill himself. nt

[Glaug-Eldare]

27. How?

I don't see any mechanism in your plan that prevents a suicidal person from using a gun range to commit suicide. It makes it less convenient, but there's nothing there that actually stops him. All it does is completely disrupt the ability of the business to function, which I believe is your real goal in the first place.

Unless I'm totally off the mark here, and resolving suicidal ideation is as simple as saying "just take it easy, you'll feel better tomorrow."

Just out of curiosity, have you ever been to a range that rents firearms? Do you have even the slightest notion of how that kind of business operates?

[Glaug-Eldare]

58. Thought so.

As always, the intention is not to save lives at all. Gun control advocates are bigger fans of death than they realize, because it gives them bodies to point at while they pitch unrelated schemes to inconvenience, harass, regulate, and prohibit civil liberties they don't approve of.

[mikeb302000]

61. Waiting periods work for suicide and rage. nt

[gejohnston]

65. actually no

Most people are chilled out by the time they get to the store. Suicide is independent of means.

[PavePusher]

67. And we are to take your word for it?

Pull the other one...

[trouble.smith]

32. how do we know he was depressed? perhaps he had terminal cancer and was in terrible pain

and this was his only option other than to die slowly and painfully. and if so, wouldn't that suck most of the air out of your premise? Suicide is awful but, for some, it is, regrettably, a reasonable and merciful alternative.

[mikeb302000]

62. Then he should do it in his bathtub at home.

This way it reflects badly on all gun owners and gun ranges. Look how defensive you all are.

[PavePusher]

68. No, it only reflects badly on the person who creates a horrific mess for others.

Has nothing to do with any other gun owners or gun ranges.

[trouble.smith]

76. Lame.

unsurprising though because, as usual, you don't actually have a legitimate argument to make here. Your premise was chock full of fail from the beginning (as usual).

[Francis Marion]

75. Yes!

How about a cooling off period before crossing the Golden Gate.

You could buy a ticket and submit to a psychological profile before traveling across the bridge the next day.

Before buying a bottle of Boone's Farm, you could get permission from an AA counselor; you could buy it ten days later only if they're convinced you're not about to go on a bender.

People could buy tickets for the Grand Canyon the year prior to when they plan to visit; that way, there will be time for a battery of psychiatric exams and tests which they must pass in order to enjoy a summer vacation.

You really have hit upon a strategy for better living through mandatory benevolent arbitrary caution.

[ileus]

2. People need to stop victimizing gun ranges

And firearms....

People need to realize the rights they're killing are mine.

[Travis_0004]

3. If somebody is sucidial, they will find away to kill themselves.

I see nothing wrong with a gun rental at a range. It allows people to try out a gun, and if they like it, they can buy it. If they don't, its a lot cheaper than buying it and having to resell it.

Even if a range didn't rent guns, people could just as easily buy a gun, go to the parking lot and shoot themselves. I know some gun ranges require you to bring a gun, in order to rent one, but that is a policy I disagree with. The first time I rented I gun, I didn't have any, but I bought one shortly after because I liked shooting it.

If you want to lower suicide, we need to fix the damn economy, get people gainfully employed, improve mental health services, I don't think changing gun regulations will have a major impact.

[Remmah2]

4. Methods of Suicide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_methods

1 Bleeding
1.1 Wrist cutting
2 Drowning
3 Suffocation
4 Hypothermia
5 Electrocution
6 Jumping from height
7 Firearms
8 Hanging
9 Vehicular impact
9.1 Rail
9.1.1 Place9.1.2 Method and time9.1.3 Europe9.1.4 Japan9.1.5 North America9.1.6 Reducing the number of rail-related suicides
9.2 Metro systems
9.3 Traffic collisions
9.4 Aircraft
10 Poison
10.1 Pesticide
10.2 Drug overdose
10.3 Carbon monoxide
10.4 Other toxins
11 Disease
12 Immolation
12.1 Volcano
13 Ritual suicide
13.1 Seppuku
13.2 Autosacrifice
14 Starvation
15 Dehydration
16 Explosion
17 Suicide attack
18 Indirect suicide

[EX500rider]

36. Volcano?!!??!

And i don't even want to know what "Autosacrifice" is...

[PavePusher]

5. Since you are so concerned.....

A casual look shows more than that. , for crying out loud.

No, this problem is a lot more widespread than the pro gun crowd would have us believe. That's their strategy, to lie about the extent of a problem and then divide by all the guns in the entire country and say the percentage is insignificant. They combine that approach with the one in the article in which they claim nothing can be done about it. But that's usually self-serving nonsense.

Perhaps you can cite to how much more "widespread" this "problem" is? Got stats?

Your problem is that this method of suicide is statistically insignificant, and no matter how many times you yell "Suicide!!" in a crowded discussion forum, no-one will give you the unreasoned stampede you want. Speaking of self-serving nonsense. Selling fear... you suck at it.

But since you think it's such an overwhelming problem, please state your proposals to effectively deal with it without trampling the Rights of everyone in the process.

[mikeb302000]

23. I showed that in the post

These biased liars said there were 6 cases they knew about. I showed you a place where they've had 3 all in the same place.

[gejohnston]

33. you showed nothing

you made a baseless claim.

[PavePusher]

34. Please point/bold/highlight/something for those of us too blind to see.

Suicides like the one Sunday at a Fort Myers gun range, while not common, are difficult to prevent, local firearms experts say.

Richard Arlen Kelley, 75, of Fort Myers, committed suicide at Fowler Firearms and Gun Range on Fowler Avenue. He had taken shooting practice for about 20 minutes, a store official said Monday. Josh Hackman, general manager at the Fowler store, said there’s nothing anyone at the store could have done to prevent Kelley from shooting himself.


“He came in, showed his ID, signed the waiver, we showed him how to use the gun, and then he shot for about 20 minutes,” he said. “Then he shot himself. That was it.”


The biased spin job of an article goes on to say "The News-Press archives show at least six other similar suicides at gun ranges around the United States in the past three years." Now, we know that's some shabby archives they've got there. A casual look shows more than that. , for crying out loud.

No, this problem is a lot more widespread than the pro gun crowd would have us believe. That's their strategy, to lie about the extent of a problem and then divide by all the guns in the entire country and say the percentage is insignificant. They combine that approach with the one in the article in which they claim nothing can be done about it. But that's usually self-serving nonsense.

The problem with all their justifications is we're talking about lives, human lives. Renting guns to suicidal people is wrong and every effort should be made to stop it.

What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.

[Remmah2]

6. The 19 Jobs Where You're Most Likely To Kill Yourself

http://www.businessinsider.com/most-suicidal-occupations-2011-10#

[Atypical Liberal]

7. So what efforts do you suggest?

The problem with all their justifications is we're talking about lives, human lives. Renting guns to suicidal people is wrong and every effort should be made to stop it.

So what efforts do you suggest?

How is a store employee supposed to know if someone is suicidal or not?

[mikeb302000]

24. By requiring a 24 hour advance reservation. nt

[Atypical Liberal]

30. Hey, that would suit me fine!

When I visit my relatives in Atlanta, I'm tired of showing up at the indoor range and having to wait for a stall to become available. I would *love* to reserve in advance. They could even set it up on their web site so you can see availability. I think I will suggest this next time I'm in town and go shooting. This would be a boon to customer service.

[Atypical Liberal]

8. Are you the same blogger "Baldr Odinson"?

Both you and Baldr Odinson claim your mikeb30200 blog as their own.

Are you and Baldr Odinson the same person?

[rl6214]

16. This is a new one, I haven't seen this one before

Last edited Wed Oct 17, 2012, 05:13 PM - Edit history (1)

Doing a little research, he claims to be a blogger out of Eugene, OR

[mikeb302000]

25. Yes. I'm Colin Goddard too. nt

[Atypical Liberal]

29. I don't know who Colin Goddard is.

But you are Baldr Odinson?

I'm just wondering how he claims ownership to your blog.

[friendly_iconoclast]

60. His name is Legion! Or Spartacus....

[holdencaufield]

71. I'm Spartacus!

[Kennah]

80. Me and the wife are Spartacus

[4th law of robotics]

9. " Renting guns to suicidal people is wrong and every effort should be made to stop it. "

Renting cars to people who intend to fill them with fertilizer and blow up a federal building is wrong.

Every effort should be made to stop it.

Therefore it should be illegal to rent a car to someone who clearly states in advance that they intend to use it for some nefarious purpose.

[gejohnston]

10. why do something that will hurt your business?

The biased spin job of an article goes on to say "The News-Press archives show at least six other similar suicides at gun ranges around the United States in the past three years." Now, we know that's some shabby archives they've got there. A casual look shows more than that. , for crying out loud.

Based on what evidence? You don't even have a study paid paid for by the Joyce/Brady echo chamber.

The problem with all their justifications is we're talking about lives, human lives. Renting guns to suicidal people is wrong and every effort should be made to stop it.

Renting to someone you think is suicidal is bad for business. BTW, can you spot a suicidal person?

[Eleanors38]

11. So, you attack (in advance!) the intellectual means of reasoning

most folks employ, then proclaim "...the problem is a lot more widespread." Is this self-innoculation against sound argument?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

12. Ban suicidal humans!

Lock them away. They're criminals!

[Kennah]

79. Kill 'em! It's the only way to prevent the suicides.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

81. Well...

...we can't be sure they're really suicidal unless they been charged and found guilty of attempted suicide. If they have, I say kill 'em. They leave us no choice. Even in prison, they may try to repeat their crime.

[Kennah]

82. Well of course. We have to give them due process. And then kill them.

[petronius]

13. I have heard (although I've never been there) that one of my local ranges

won't rent firearms to people who come in alone. I've always assumed that that was an attempt to reduce the (already tiny) risk of a suicide, but it could also be a means to increase the number of paying guests.

Suicide is a horrible tragedy, but it's not a gun problem - solutions to suicide don't lie in the area of gun policy. Rather, it's a question of mental health treatment, family and community support, medical and economic safety nets, etc. And, for those truly at the point of an end-of-life decision, legal assisted suicide should be available.

[ManiacJoe]

14. The ranges in the Seattle area all went with the rule

that to rent a gun, you need to be with a buddy or have brought a gun of your own. The theory is that your buddy will try to stop the suicide and that if you brought your own gun you will not need one of theirs to kill yourself.

[Grave Grumbler]

15. Good grief...what a stupid rule. n/t

[ManiacJoe]

17. Since there have been no more suicides since the first two,

some will claim the rule is working.

[mikeb302000]

26. There you go. Trying to solve the problem. nt

[Glaug-Eldare]

28. Do you believe there can be such a thing as a bad restriction?

Is it a possible thing for a gun control law to be unacceptably onerous?

[mikeb302000]

63. I think restricting sound suppressors is wrong. nt

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

31. That will work until...

...the "Rent a Buddy" shop opens next door.

[aletier_v]

18. Most range owners have zero desire for a suicide on their range

The publicity is terrible, certainly not worth $10 for the rental.

The cleanup costs... police interviews... etc, etc.

[slackmaster]

35. Isolated incidents. So rare they're not really worth discussing much.

All of the ranges in San Diego have adopted a policy of never renting a gun to a first-time customer who shows up alone.

That's all I have to contribute.

[mikeb302000]

64. Only callous and biased gun owners think that the loss of human life is acceptable. nt

[holdencaufield]

72. Loss of human life may not be acceptable ...

... but it is inevitable. Statistic show that 97% of all people die at some point in their life -- nothing you do or don't do about firearms will change that statistic.

[slackmaster]

78. Who said that the loss of life is acceptable?

Your BIAS is showing, mikeb30200.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

37. Hope the Store Had Insurance

They'll need it.

[PavePusher]

38. How so? Under what laws or moral principles...

...is the store responsible for someone commiting suicide?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

39. Sure.

Just as Ruger and Smith & Wesson are responsible.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

41. Did they rent to a mentally unstable person?

.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

42. Do they have...

...legal grounds to make that determination?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

45. The Answer Is

....the gun manufacturer did not rent.

The store did.

What legal grounds do they have to determine whether someone is qualified to operate a gun?

I'm sure a court will tell them if they don't have something already.

Shoot...no pun intended....they can start by simply asking the question.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

47. In some places...

...that would be an invasion of privacy.

Perhaps, the same NICS check that applies to sales should apply to rentals?
What do you think?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

49. Nonsense

No one is forcing you to rent a gun from a store.

Answer health questions, sign a waiver to protect owner releasing that information and save a life.

Try bungee jumping or sky diving and you can preview the form.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

57. How any of that...

...saves a life is beyond me. Have a nice night.

[gejohnston]

44. the plaintiff's lawyer would

have to show that the clerk would have reason to believe that the person was suicidal, which they can't. Of course, that opens the door to Hertz getting sued for renting to a drunk.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

46. They Are

.

Heck, putting someone in a cab who is drunk can create liability if the person stops and gets out and starts drinking again resulting later in death depending on dram shop laws in your state.

You better believe Hertz faces liability.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

50. Nonsense

Hertz does it every day.

There is no Constitutional right to be able to rent a potential killing machine...car or gun.

[gejohnston]

51. but the law

does say something about punishing those who had no knowledge or ability to detect. If Hertz rents a car to a guy who then kills himself by driving like an idiot, the clerk and the company is not responsible for his death, legally or morally. The same applies to the range.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

52. Law Does Not Allow Them to Rent to Someone Who Appears Intoxicated

Fact.

[gejohnston]

53. didn't say he was drunk at the time

he could be sober before renting then go get drunk off his ass.

[AtheistCrusader]

70. So, require that the ranges not rent to someone who appears suicidal.

Problem solved.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

48. A sale or rental...

...is a transfer (permanent or temporary) of possession, under the law for most things.


But my fault, I did forget the thing.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

40. Tell It To A Judge or Jury

I'm sure there are good attorneys who can argue either position with or without merit.

But it's naive to think that his heirs lack standing to make a claim against a store who rents a gun and then kills with it. Exhibit A: You may call your first witness......Doctor.

[PavePusher]

43. Answer my question....

and the question in reply #1.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

54. Ok

Repeat your question.

Question 1 is:
A store owner to instantly assess the mental state, with perfect accuracy, of everyone who walks through their doors?

Who says instantly is appropriate?
Who says 'perfect accuracy' is the standard?
Who says you simply ask them and get a release?
Who says anyone has a constitutional right to rent anything from a property owner?

[PavePusher]

55. So, you're dodging. Quite predictable from you. n/t

[fightthegoodfightnow]

56. Yawn

Sticks and stones

[mikeb302000]

66. Of course they're responsible.

You don't see it cause you don't want to see it. Anything that reflects badly on guns or gun rights you pretend not to see.

The shooter is responsible for taking his own life. The gun shop is responsible for having given him the means and venue. That's FULL individual responsibility, not the half-assed one that you like which ignores the gun shop's part.

[gejohnston]

69. that is not how the law works

I doubt it works that way in Italy. Then again, if their civil system is anything like their criminal system

The truth is, Italians have long since recognized the unreliability and compromised nature of their courts. At the moment, the Italian public's trust in the justice system is at an all-time low. According to a November poll by Euromedia research group, only 16 percent of Italians fully trust it; just two years ago, the figure was 28 percent. And Italian civil rights groups are intense in their criticism of what they view as kangaroo courts.

Wow and I thought our trial by media is bad. But then, you are talking about a legal system that was created by a bunch of lead poisoned imperialistic savages who forced slaves to kill each other for fun and profit.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/12/10/can_anyone_get_a_fair_trial_in_italy
So if some guy buys or rents a car and drives it off a cliff to do himself in, is Hertz responsible? Is the guy at Wal Mart or Ace responsible if he or she sells the rope to someone who uses that means, which is the most common in Europe? See where this goes?

[holdencaufield]

73. I rent a car from Avis ...

... and in a fit of despair ... I drive it at 120mph into a concrete abutment.

Now, I'm sure my heirs (well not mine because they're sane people, but someone's heirs) will attempt to sue Avis for damages. However, unless the judge graduated law school on Alpha Centauri, the case will be tossed out of court.

The lessor's duty of care extends to providing a vehicle (or in this case, a firearm) in good working order and to assure lessee can reasonably demonstrate his ability to operate it (in the case of a car, that is a valid driver's license).

[Simo 1939_1940]

59. At the range where I shoot, you don't rent a firearm unless you come in with one.

And that includes regulars that all of the employees know.

[Francis Marion]

74. Some would consider it

as self-abortion, cloaked in saintly, un-opposable 'right to choose!' stridency.

In truth, though, it's just sad and devastating when life ends.

If only they'd choose to talk to somebody instead and seek help, any action that doesn't hurt themselves would be preferable to one bad decision that can never be taken back.

It's pitiful to leave such havoc for family, passersby, not to mention first responders, to deal with.

Give it some more time. Things will get better. We want you here with us.

[geckosfeet]

77. My opinion is, to trash this