Why were there no wounded?

[oldhippie]

In all the emotion and tragedy on so many levels, the little piece of my brain that used to have to analyze tactical situations keeps asking - How was this shooter so deadly accurate that virtually every victim (as far as I know) was killed? No wounded?. No one able to run away or duck under a table or play dead? Granted these were all little children or unarmed teachers doing their heroic best to protect their children. Was the shooter just totally methodical and went from one victim to another making sure each had a lethal wound? I have a hard time imagining even a trained team being able to do this.

What was this shooter doing different than the mall shooter or other school shooters? Whatever it was, maybe we can try to stop it.

[unblock]

1. i've heard varying report, but i believe the latest number of wounded is 9.

subject to frequent revision, of course.

[AldoLeopold]

5. I just watched the press conference by law enforcement officials

and he is saying only 1 wounded.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/14/15907407-elementary-school-massacre-27-killed-including-20-kids-at-connecticut-school?lite=&ocid=ansmsnbc11

[trof]

2. 1 We don't know that yet.

2. Small bodies are much more vulnerable to gunshot wounds.
A wound that an adult might survive can be deadly to a small child.

[AldoLeopold]

4. We know there was only 1 wounded

Only one left wounded. I don't know if they're an adult or child. This is horrible. I'm an anti-humanist to the core, but this has made me sick to my stomach.

[oldhippie]

7. Sadly true.

Small bodies cannot accept and recover from such trauma. So sad.

[Agnosticsherbet]

3. The little piece on my brain is 20 dead elementary school children.

Out of some sense of common decency, you should delete your post.

[oldhippie]

6. Some of us are not quivering masses of emotion incapable of .......

... addressing several issues at once. Yes, it's a tragedy. Yes it's emotional. But my brain doesn't stop when something bad happens. I can deal with it. I understand if you can't.

[Agnosticsherbet]

8. Some of us have a sense of common decency, some concern for the dead.

If you can't feel emotion for twenty dead elementary school children and six teachers, then you may be lacking in common decency.

You post reads more like a statement of admiration for the shooters accuracy.

To me, it boils down to, "Terrible about those dead kids, but man that guy could shoot."

[AldoLeopold]

9. That's ridiculous

He's just pointing out an anomaly in the data. Something that he's intellectually analyzing.

You assume far too much.

[unblock]

10. the o.p. acknowledged the emotion and the tragedy.

do you really think it's not relevant, even on a profoundly emotional level with respect to the victims, to understand the nature of the event that claimed their lives?

is it really not relevant if he used particularly lethal weapons and/or ammunition?
is it really not relevant if he received expert training somewhere?

should the police not bother investigating based on your sense of "decency"?

personally, i'd want to know every damn detail if my kid were one of the victims.

[tortoise1956]

11. Take your attitude somewhere else, please...

The OP brought up a point that has puzzled me all day long. I'm afraid the answer will be that he shot each of those poor babies as many times as he had to in order to make sure that they were dead.

And before you get all up in arms, I have no admiration for him or his accuracy. The bright spot today is that the sick fuck was successful in ending his own evil existence.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

51. x2

[oldhippie]

13. I am very happy for your decency and concern ...

"If you can't feel emotion for twenty dead elementary school children and six teachers, then you may be lacking in common decency."

Where did you get the idea I can't feel emotion? I said it was tragic and emotional. But it doesn't stop my brain.

"You post reads more like a statement of admiration for the shooters accuracy."

"To me, it boils down to, "Terrible about those dead kids, but man that guy could shoot."

Projection maybe? I meant no such things. Your perception may vary.

[Eleanors38]

19. What gives you the right to question someone else's

emotions and decency? Your outlook is in itself inhumane and intolerant. And not very liberal.

The question in the OP is serious, and goes to circumstances which resulted in near 100% fatalities, an unusual result in mass shootings.

There will not be censorship of this topic.

[Agnosticsherbet]

27. Did you read the OP...

Twenty children and six adults murdered and the conversation isn't about the horrendous nature of the crime or the failure in regulation made this the seventh mass gun murder this year (which is a record) but things like tactics and accuracy, about which the OP was inaccurate. I saw no real evidence of emotion (though I was accused of that fault in the answer to my post), but I did question the common decency.

I should have looked and seen it was under Gun Control & RKBA before posting, as I would have understood that the concern here is not for the victims but for the danger to the gun owners.

I will be more careful to look at the location an OP is posted in the future.

[gejohnston]

28. it is about putting the blame on the proper shoulders

the killer and the media

[Glaug-Eldare]

30. There's more than one way to address a tragedy.

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:07 AM - Edit history (1)

Some people are investigating, some people are writing, some people are arranging burials, some people are treating the wounded. None of these preclude the grief and sorrow at the loss of innocent life. A police officer isn't showing a lack of decency when she walks around a dead body to gather evidence, and a mortician isn't showing a lack of decency when he concentrates on preparing a body for burial. Oldhippie is concentrating on discovering facts and using them to prevent future incidents. I'm sure there's plenty of room for mourning in there, too. The focus of this group makes questions like this more significant to us, because we are thinking about 2A and public safety issues whether or not there's a gun-related headline in the news. It's not that Oldhippie or anyone else here lacks the capacity to feel for the victims -- it's that our group delves more deeply into issues of gun policy and its effects, instead of just commenting on the headlines. Please don't leap to conclusions and paint the whole group as heartless fanatics -- it isn't true.

An analogy might be if a poster in the Automobile Enthusiasts group started a thread asking whether a particular mechanical failure might have caused a school bus to lose control and collide with a tractor-trailer. That discussion might get into the specifics of that model of bus, or maintenance schedules that might have prevented it. Their heightened interest and knowledge of that field doesn't mean that they are unfeeling about the loss of life -- it means that they will discuss it from a different perspective, with a focus on more technical aspects than USA Today will address.

[Eleanors38]

35. You led off with disrespect and expect to gain some high ground?

This group has for years tried not only to defend ALL our rights, but to proffer solutions to crime. We do it anytime the idea rises; I just floated an idea which directly addresses school shootings, and I think it would work.

(Please note that it IS peculiar for there not to be woundings, and may help in future security measures.)

[yellerpup]

12. There were wounded.

One assistant principal was shot in the leg. The children in his mother's classroom were murdered 'execution style', I'm assuming he did that with one of the two pistols he was carrying. Local news say his girlfriend and another friend in NJ is missing, so the body count may still go up. The other shooters didn't have rows of small children.

[oldhippie]

14. I wasn't aware of that

Thanks for the info.

The other shooters didn't have rows of small children.

And that image is just so troubling to me. Terrified little kids with no defense.

[yellerpup]

31. I know. Just kills me. n/t

[AldoLeopold]

15. One might reason

that any other victims in other locations are dead, since there apparently was no warning for this. But that is a big assumption on my part. I believe that I read that the girlfriend was found with a fatal wound.

[yellerpup]

32. I read that in the NY Post.

I have been out and not heard the latest news so this is the first I've heard of a fatally wounded girlfriend. I do hope that's just a bad rumor, but if true your assumption is proven true and time will tell if that's where the carnage ends.

[LiberalEsto]

16. The vice principal was shot in the foot

and crawled back to the office to call 911. Can't remember where I read that, maybe the NY Times.

[Atypical Liberal]

17. What has happened is that finally someone really "knew what they were doing".

And I don't mean that in a good way.

I was just saying last week after the mall shooting that it was a miracle that this guy went into a mall with an AR15, fired off 18 rounds, and only killed 4 people. It tells me that they either aren't very good shooters to begin with or they were unable to really kill when it came down to it.

What happened here is what I have been dreading for years. Someone took an assault rifle (and I am not interested in the semantics of what an AR15 .223 Bushmaster is) and, in a confined room or two, blew away children.

In short, he couldn't, and didn't, miss. And he knew how to use his guns so they worked flawlessly for him.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. Other reports are that it was pistol only

Still a lot of confusion about how...but the body count seems to be horrific and stable.

[rl6214]

47. He left his "assault rifle" in his car

All of this carnage was done with two pistols.

[thucythucy]

64. Not according to the news accounts I've seen today (Sunday):

the rifle was used to shoot the children, some of them multiple times. That was a report from the coroner's office.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

52. "Someone took an assault rifle ...and ... blew away ..." Does it matter to you if he didn't?

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:33 PM - Edit history (1)

Multiple news reports indicate that he used a 9mm Glock and a 9mm Sig Sauer. Neither is a rifle, assault or any other kind.

What I've been dreading since the time that Reagan closed down California health care facilities and release the insane on the streets is that persons who require medications because of mental problems will stop taking their medications and start killing people. What do you do with mentally ill people who play violent video games, watch violent movies and TV shows, and stop taking their medications?

Update:

Some news reports initially reported that the shooter used two 9mm pistols. Since then, a medical examiner held a news conference and reported that the shooter used a rifle.

[Atypical Liberal]

53. It remains to be seen.

"Someone took an assault rifle ...and ... blew away ..." Does it matter to you that he didn't?

What I have read is that they found .223 cases at the crime scene, but the shooter was found dead in a home and the rifle in his car.

He may have used the rifle at the scene and left in his car.

Details are still emerging.

Either way, the weapon is irrelevant. My point here is that there were no wounded because this guy knew how to use a gun.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

54. "Either way, the weapon is irrelevant." That's not what you said.

The phrase "assault rifle" is an emotional one for many people.

You used that emotional phrase while saying,

"Someone took an assault rifle (and I am not interested in the semantics of what an AR15 .223 Bushmaster is) and, in a confined room or two, blew away children."

[Atypical Liberal]

55. The qustion is "Why were there no wounded". And yes, the weapon is irrelevant.

The reason why there were no wounded is because this person knew how to shoot a gun.

At the time I wrote my initial post, the reports were that there were .223 cases at the crime scene.

Now it seems that the .223 may not have been used.

Does it matter? It may have been even worse if he had brought the assault rifle.

The reason why there were no wounded is because this guy knew what he was doing.

[gejohnston]

56. not really

kids at point blank range requires no skill.

[sarisataka]

18. Like homicide investigators...

we must ask questions we would rather not ask to get answers we need to prevent another occurrence.


Pure guesses at this time:
adults can take more damage than children
in other shootings many victims have a chance to run that these children did not
the shooter had time to be methodical as many others shoot randomly


The though of doing something like this is so alien that I get physically ill just trying to think of answers. It is a very small price if collectively we can produce one small idea that would have the slightest effect....

[DollarBillHines]

20. Large caliber, small children.

9MM hollow-points wreak havoc on a five-year-old, no matter where on their body they are hit.

[jpak]

21. Because gun control means hitting your target

so say the gun nuts

yup

[tortoise1956]

22. If I thought it would do any good,

I'd alert on your post. However, all of DU seems to be pretty short of any semblance of tolerance today.

yup

[sarisataka]

24. I am starting to believe

That some people enjoy dancing in the blood.

[rl6214]

48. We all know the typical characters that do

[jpak]

59. Next time you are at a gun show

tell me you don't see the following bumper stickers...

"Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out"

"Gun control means hitting your target"

any assortment of human targets

or an other confederate flag redneck bullshit.

Gun CULTure sucks

yup

[gejohnston]

60. strange, I never saw any of that stuff at the ones I go to.

Have you been reading old copies of Soldier of Fortune?

[jeepnstein]

26. That is despicable.

I can't believe anyone would stoop to say such a thing.

[AldoLeopold]

33. He's fed up

I believe what he is saying is that to the gun enthusiasts, gun control means hitting your target - controlling the weapon enough to hit your target.

He's fed up. So am I. We'll deal with the mental health issues in people - then we'll deal with the guns so that one more child doesn't have to die like this.

This was a bullshit day. A bullshit day.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

29. disgusting.

[jpak]

57. This is a bumper sticker ALWAYS on sale any ANY gun show in the US

Yuk it up gun nuts

yup

[CokeMachine]

37. Hey Jpak

Peroxide works better than bleach to get the blood off of your post. You are one sick individual. God you are a class act!!

yup! Fuck the horse you rode in on. Just what I expect from some basement dweller at momma's home. Crawl back under your rock.
yup
yup yup
yup (means you ugly (semi) person)

[jpak]

58. The blood is on the hands of the GOP gun nuts that let the AW ban lapse

yup

[CokeMachine]

62. I don't know but

you are the one talking about hitting targets. Good to see you back in the gungeon though. The only time you show up is to wallow in tragedy and get your rocks of on other's suffering. Keep up the good work -- you wear it well.

Take Care.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. I'll try and answer it as best I can

This discussion is academic in nature and not for the squeamish.

Children are compact humans with a lower blood volume. A torso shot is much more likely to hit a vital organ and even extremity hits are more likely to result in bleeding out than they would in an adult.

At classroom ranges (25 ft or less) just about any adult can hit a #10 size can easily which is about the size of a child's torso.

At this time we do not have solid information if a rifle was used, was it just handguns, calibers, or rounds fired. While that information is of some importance in the debates which will follow, it is not relevant to the fact that innocents are dead.

[NYC_SKP]

34. Younger victims are also less like to react by running or fighting back.

They probably all went into shock and were able to be easily murdered one by one by precious tiny one.

[AldoLeopold]

36. Higher surface area to volume ratio

The rifle was a Bushmaster AR - 15. .223 caliber rounds. I can't imagine what the EMT's and law enforcement officials found.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. That is one way to look at it

A friend was horrified at my #10 can analogy, until she held one up to her child and got my point.

First responders are going to have a hard time with this. One of my daughters was in Haiti, and there are things there she said rocked her core. This could be no different, and some most likely knew some of the victims.

Its not clear if the rifle was used or not. Not sure it matters while you are in mourning as to type, caliber or other means. The details will be come more clear over time.

[rl6214]

49. The rifle wasn't used

[thucythucy]

63. Actually, latest reports say

that it was.

[ellisonz]

40. Academic?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

41. It was a technical answer to what I took as an honest question

Its pretty damn upsetting and should be, but its the main reason the ratio is what it is.

[ellisonz]

42. I wouldn't describe that so much as "academic" or "technical"

I would describe it as speculative...I also wouldn't judge it as conclusive considering we don't know how many rounds were fired. I doubt that's going to be what appears in the coroners report. I would suspect all victims suffered multiple gunshot wounds or critical wounds to vital organs. Wouldn't have mattered if they were children or adults. This asshole intended to kill.

[gejohnston]

43. if we are going to speculate

I think he did it at point blank range with only one or two shots each. But, I doubt they will make the coroners report public. Given the caliber, and given their size, the shock wave would trump placement if he shot for the torsos.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

[ProgressiveProfessor]

44. You might want to talk to someone you know with a forensics background

Kids are more likely to die from a gunshot would than an adult for the reasons that several of us mentioned.

Yes there could have been massive overkill and those kind of details may come out next week.

[ellisonz]

45. That's probably still

I'm still repulsed by your description of this as "academic" and "technical" - "medical" would be much less sanctimonious and not make it sound like you're trying to teach target shooting.

I say wait for the details before you speak with "academic" and "technical" certainty

[rl6214]

50. Tap tapping away

[Dr_Scholl]

39. Here's my theory.

He probably locked himself in the classroom or somehow blocked the door, and then just started shooting.

With nowhere to go and too small to overpower the shooter, those kids were helpless.

[Kennah]

46. May well be some merit to the theory

Patrick Purdy used an AK rifle at Cleveland Elementary School to kill 5 and wound 29.

At close range inside a classroom, versus outside across the schoolyard.

[mbperrin]

61. Medical examiner pointed out that each victim was shot an absolute minimum of three times, and some

as many as seven.

The rifle was used and found with the two handguns in the vicinity of his body.

Just shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot.

We already know his mother bought the weapons and took him to the range often to practice.