Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

jpak

(41,758 posts)
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:35 AM Dec 2012

So, why didn't the recent mass murderers use bolt action deer rifles and revolvers?

It's because they lack the capacity to carry more than 5-6 rounds of ammunition and do not have the ability for rapid sustained fire.

Deer rifles are not the gun of choice for gun nuts and mass murderers.

Military-style assault rifles and semi-auto pistols with large capacity magazines are the choice of gun nuts and mass murderers.

Ban 'em.

yup

39 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
So, why didn't the recent mass murderers use bolt action deer rifles and revolvers? (Original Post) jpak Dec 2012 OP
The VT killer and the Luby's killer didn't use high capacity magazines. GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #1
The "standard" detachable magazine capacity in Michigan for hunting is 5 rounds Kaleva Dec 2012 #3
Most rampage shootings are with handguns. N/T GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #7
And I've advocated for the banning of the sale of new or imported semi-automatic handguns. Kaleva Dec 2012 #15
Your Luby's hero used a Glock and a Ruger P89 - both had high capacity magazines jpak Dec 2012 #6
Both are handguns. GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #8
The"standard" clips hold up to 15 rounds - and they suck jpak Dec 2012 #9
I guess I shouldn't be surprised they're crawling out to issue their standard blood-soaked apologies villager Dec 2012 #26
Mass Shootings at Virginia Tech: Report of the Review Panel Kennah Dec 2012 #29
Remember, assault weapons are the weapon of choise for export by the BATF. Remmah2 Dec 2012 #2
Remember, gun nuts oppose restrictions on multiple same-day gun sales in border states jpak Dec 2012 #4
Not all gun owners do...and you call all of us gun nuts ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #35
Love my 1968 22-250 Sako. ileus Dec 2012 #5
So tell us rrneck Dec 2012 #10
How many dead children are worth the price of gun CULTure "freedom"? jpak Dec 2012 #11
That's what I thought. nt rrneck Dec 2012 #12
Detachable magazines means rapid reloading. Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #13
Explain the clock tower shooting. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #14
That was before you could buy AR-15s and AKs and all that shit jpak Dec 2012 #16
So, the style of weapon has changed, with an increment in volume of fire. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #17
Deer rifles are OK -they are legally restricted to the number of rounds they can carry jpak Dec 2012 #19
how many mass shootings have been carried out with an M-1 carbine? gejohnston Dec 2012 #20
They all suck - ban 'em jpak Dec 2012 #21
According to the blow by blow on wiki AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #22
Bolt-actions aren't necessarily low capicity roninjedi Dec 2012 #23
Ban alterations too - make them hard time sentences jpak Dec 2012 #24
I see your point about banning alterations roninjedi Dec 2012 #28
M1 carbines had both 15 and 30 round mags. Kennah Dec 2012 #30
You need get your facts straight, jpak... S_B_Jackson Dec 2012 #32
Those were for law enforcement - you did not see them in Field and Stream and Outdoor Life jpak Dec 2012 #33
They were available for order at your local gun store... S_B_Jackson Dec 2012 #37
Semi-auto shotguns have 4 round tube magazines jpak Dec 2012 #38
There were other civilian weapons that were comparable to the ARs available at the time ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #36
He killed 13 people and wounded 32 others with single shot weapons? Another reason to bad Sniper WastedSaint Dec 2012 #18
Why do people obfuscate massacres to defend NRA policies? jpak Dec 2012 #25
His momma didn't own them zipplewrath Dec 2012 #27
Cumbria, 12 dead, 11 wounded, plus the shooter dead Kennah Dec 2012 #31
If he used an AR15, the death toll would be 10 times that jpak Dec 2012 #34
Because mass shooters kill on average 120 people? Kennah Dec 2012 #39

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
1. The VT killer and the Luby's killer didn't use high capacity magazines.
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:50 AM
Dec 2012

In fact, only the last few have used anything but standard magazines. They just had extra mags and switched out quickly when they emptied a mag.

Kaleva

(36,318 posts)
3. The "standard" detachable magazine capacity in Michigan for hunting is 5 rounds
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:12 AM
Dec 2012

Your comment:

" They just had extra mags and switched out quickly when they emptied a mag."

Since they can be switched out so quickly as you say, there then isn't any justificiation to have mags for semi-automatic rifles that hold more then 5 rounds.

jpak

(41,758 posts)
6. Your Luby's hero used a Glock and a Ruger P89 - both had high capacity magazines
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:02 PM
Dec 2012

Massacre apology fail

yup

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
26. I guess I shouldn't be surprised they're crawling out to issue their standard blood-soaked apologies
Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:22 PM
Dec 2012

...once again.

You'd think they'd be at least a little chastened by recent events. But no.

Kennah

(14,293 posts)
29. Mass Shootings at Virginia Tech: Report of the Review Panel
Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:47 PM
Dec 2012

"The panel concluded that 10-round magazines that were legal would have not made much difference in the incident."

http://www.governor.virginia.gov/TempContent/techPanelReport.cfm

 

Remmah2

(3,291 posts)
2. Remember, assault weapons are the weapon of choise for export by the BATF.
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:59 AM
Dec 2012

Good morning sunshine.

jpak

(41,758 posts)
4. Remember, gun nuts oppose restrictions on multiple same-day gun sales in border states
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:18 AM
Dec 2012

and background checks and waiting periods for private gun sales and transfers.

and gun nuts supported the GOP when they held Eric Holder in contempt.

yup

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
35. Not all gun owners do...and you call all of us gun nuts
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:38 AM
Dec 2012

Please feel free to point out any NRA talking points.

Things I support

NICS checks or equivalent on all transactions, even private party transaction and gifts. My approach would be a Federal FOID that you would automatically get at 18yo so they are not a "firearms ownership licenses", a common objection to that approach. The check is then if the FOID is still valid for the sale to proceed. This is easy from the IT perspective. Note the NRA rejects the FOID approach.

Limitation of pistol magazines to what fits inside the grip of the gun. Require that new designs not support magazines that extend beneath the handle (BATF already has authority to force design changes). This is readily demonstrated by the Ruger line of .22LR handguns and the Astra 400/600. Grandfather or buy back at retail price non-conforming magazines. This approach also slows down magazine changes. Note that the NRA has rejected magazine limitations

All firearms must be secured when not in use, being cleaned, transported, etc. While California got stupid on parts of this, its the right thing to do. Some will miss their old time glass front display cases or wall rack, but proper security is a must. Would consider an exemption for non-functional devices. I believe the NRA has fought mandatory safes.

Somethings I have mixed feelings about/no definitive solution

Mandatory owner training. It is not required to exercise any other enumerated right, but I have seen some very scary stuff over the years. Not sure what the standards should be, but I come down on the side of some training being required. The NRA has fought this.

Mandatory safety training for children. Enough for them to overcome their natural curiosity and get an adult should they find an unsecured firearm. While some would find that more offensive than the fundies find sex ed, until things change, its basic safety and needs to be done. Not sure the best way, but it is clearly called for. NRA has not taken a stand on this but does offer such classes. I still don't see it as a talking point.

Waiting periods. For someone who already has firearms, not sure what purpose they serve. For first time owners I support them. Overall I think they are a good idea. Not sure what the right time length should be. 1 weeks seems good. There are reports that Lanza tried to buy a rifle but was stopped by the mandated waiting period (if the media reports are to be believed). NRA opposes waiting periods

Better mental health reporting and supervision. Seen a number of posts on that here. Clearly something is called for, but how to do it is not clear. Loughner never should have been allowed to have a gun. The NRA has fought additional reporting of some types of problems.

===============================================
That's my current working list. Still thinking about long guns, and have some thoughts, but not enough to post yet. There are other issues as well but this is what I have worked up so far. Some are clearly more ready than others. Open for comment and discussion.
===============================================

Some background:
My focus is in most of this is protecting the ability of those who need it to have access to effective self defense, and today that means a semi automatic handgun. There was a time I was much more pro gun control, not surprising given my background. What changed my mind was when my late wife was part of the shelter movement after she retired. She started teaching women only classes without any sanction or insurance. It was and remains controversial in the shelter movement. Later I became deeply concerned about GLBTs being bashed and killed. T*s are getting killed in our cities and damn few seem to give a damn, including the police. I have skin in that game. These are not people going into bad areas and doing questionable things, these are just people living their lives under threat. Sometimes it even follows them home. That is why they arm themselves and they will gladly disarm when the threat goes away. That is why I support handguns for self defense. Its not for the rude toters, it is for those facing real threats of violence that the police cannot abate and sometimes do not ever care about. Those who would disarm those under threat need to consider how they would tell someone lying there bleeding and bashed, tortured or shot that somehow that is better than if they had the ability to defend themselves and used it. I for one think it is the liberal and progressive approach to help them, not leave them to the predators, YMMV.

ileus

(15,396 posts)
5. Love my 1968 22-250 Sako.
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:35 AM
Dec 2012

What a piece of shooting machinery.


I wish I had a dollar for every varmint it's taken.

dozens of turkey, and several deer.

 

Atypical Liberal

(5,412 posts)
13. Detachable magazines means rapid reloading.
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:59 PM
Dec 2012

Even the 100-year-old 1911 that only holds 7 rounds in the magazine can be reloaded in seconds. If you have a load bearing vest that allows you to carry a dozen loaded magazines you can easily sustain 70 or 80 shots.

The only solution here is to restrict all semi-automatic weapons with detachable magazines. Make them Class III weapons like machine guns.

jpak

(41,758 posts)
16. That was before you could buy AR-15s and AKs and all that shit
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:54 PM
Dec 2012

In 1966, you had a choice of bolt action, pump or semi-auto deer rifles that could only carry 5 rounds.

M1 carbines had only 10 round magazines.

yup

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
17. So, the style of weapon has changed, with an increment in volume of fire.
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:18 PM
Dec 2012

Lets say we take away the non-deer hunting weapons.

Will you accept disasters like Whitlock? Or do we go further and no deer guns either?
I'm not picking a fight, just trying to understand.

jpak

(41,758 posts)
19. Deer rifles are OK -they are legally restricted to the number of rounds they can carry
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:36 PM
Dec 2012

Assault weapons are not - and I do not accept the gun nut definition of assault weapons.

Whitlock would have had to pass a background check to get his weapons today - and a waiting period.

If assault weapons like the M-1 carbine were banned, he would not have got one.

Gun nuts cannot blame assault weapon massacres on deer hunters.

nope

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
20. how many mass shootings have been carried out with an M-1 carbine?
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:54 PM
Dec 2012

and I don't accept your definition.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
22. According to the blow by blow on wiki
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:48 PM
Dec 2012

Whitlock used the shotgun and the Remington. He probably planned to use the M1 when people got into the tower to stop him, but he didn't or didn't get a chance.

The Remington was a classic deer gun. They still produce that very same model for that purpose.

roninjedi

(22 posts)
23. Bolt-actions aren't necessarily low capicity
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:24 PM
Dec 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield

The magazine can be removed completely and replaced with a fully loaded magazine. Soldiers in WWII used 5 round stripper clips to quickly reload their bolt guns as well. Many bans can be gotten around with simple technological changes.

Not trying to poo-pooh your suggestion out of hand. Just bringing up flaws you might consider.

roninjedi

(22 posts)
28. I see your point about banning alterations
Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:18 PM
Dec 2012

I was just trying to point out that guns like the Lee Enfield #4 doesn't need to be altered. That magazine pops out with the press of a switch. The stripper clip that allows quick reloading on the battlefield is just a little strip of metal bent an a particular way. Again, no alteration to the weapon.

Also, I wouldn't make any alteration that was illegal. I'd probably be afraid to. Unfortunately, the psychotic guy who storms into my workplace to kill everyone won't care about that law and he'll have altered his gun regardless of what the law says.


and loss of The Precious.


I'm sorry, was it your intent to be consescending or insulting?

Kennah

(14,293 posts)
30. M1 carbines had both 15 and 30 round mags.
Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:57 PM
Dec 2012

Semiautomatic M1 Garands have been available for decades before.

S_B_Jackson

(906 posts)
32. You need get your facts straight, jpak...
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:17 AM
Dec 2012

Colt began offering the semi-auto SP1 variant of the AR-15 series in 1963, and has offered it steadily in one form or another since.

Browning imported the FAL, in semi-auto configuration, for a short time in the early 1960's (about 1961). They ceased importation after only a year or two as they were deemed by the ATF as easily convertable to automatic-fire.

CETME imported semi-auto versions into the US for only a short time in the late 1960's or early 1970's, but the number was VERY small, and demand was never high. They are fairly rare.

HK began importation of the G3 series (semi-auto variants) in the late 1960's, but really did not gain any market acceptance until they established HK-USA in about 1978, when the product became widely known.

So you had a choice of semi-automatic "evil black rifles", M1 Garand (semi-automatic) battle rifles, M1 Carbines, bolt-action, and lever-action rifles; as for shotguns one could purchase a break-action, a lever-action, pump-action, or semi-automatic varieties (first available for sale from Browning beginning in 1905).

jpak

(41,758 posts)
33. Those were for law enforcement - you did not see them in Field and Stream and Outdoor Life
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:31 AM
Dec 2012

or in the Sears Catalog.

You did not see them in sporting goods stores or L.L. Bean.

Back in those days "sporting" guns were for hunting game - not humans.

and they did not come with penis enlargement "dress up" accessories.

yup

S_B_Jackson

(906 posts)
37. They were available for order at your local gun store...
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:14 PM
Dec 2012

army/navy stores, the local feed and grain store or rural general store for order to anyone who wanted one and could pay.

Semi-auto shotguns were indeed available in the Sears catalog and had been, by 1960, for for four + decades.

Your claims that they weren't available is false....as usual, jpak, you're just make it up as you go along.

jpak

(41,758 posts)
38. Semi-auto shotguns have 4 round tube magazines
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:06 PM
Dec 2012

and I never saw an AK or and AR15 in a sporting goods store until the Reagan Era when the Red Dawn Survivalist Kooks crawled out from under their rocks.

yup

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
36. There were other civilian weapons that were comparable to the ARs available at the time
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:39 AM
Dec 2012

The M-1 Carbine had 30 round mags starting in WWII

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
27. His momma didn't own them
Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:22 PM
Dec 2012

I don't believe she owned any. He had limited choices. The real question is why she owned them.

Kennah

(14,293 posts)
31. Cumbria, 12 dead, 11 wounded, plus the shooter dead
Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:59 PM
Dec 2012

Weapons used were a 12 gauge double barrel shotgun and a .22 bolt rifle, like hunters use.

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»So, why didn't the recent...