Regarding Race and Ethnicity in the USA

[Tuesday Afternoon]

What does being Gay or being Jewish have to do with Race and Ethnicity?

When there is a discussion regarding Assimilation vs. Appropriation

How does it help the conversation to reveal that one is a Gay or one is a Jew ... ?

Am I missing something here?

There is, I would think, a Huge difference between being a Gay White person vs. being a Gay Black person.

Also wouldn't there be a Huge difference between being a Jewish White person vs. being a Jewish Black person (Sammy Davis, ring a bell, anyone?)

And while I understand that being Jewish or Gay presents its own issues and there may be some overlap I really do not understand how being Gay or Jewish gives a person cause to argue Blacks are being ~too sensitive~ regarding the topic of assimilation/appropriation.

[bravenak]

1. I have no idea.

I think some people like to dismiss the concerns of others by using their own struggles. It's just not the same.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

4. There was a couple of intersting points brought up that I would like to pursue but, I can't see

kicking those particular threads to do it.

1) Appropriation is the first step of the process by which culture is mainstreamed
I understand that some people have a problem with this. However, there is simply no alternative. The first step taken by the dominant culture to accept a minority culture is appropriation. Down the line comes mainstream acceptance.
This is how human society functions and I can really think of no alternative, so I find it not only futile to rally against it, but counterproductive to a better society.

2)There's a difference between exchange and appropriation.

I found these statements to be interesting and relevant.

[bravenak]

16. They do make sense but they minimize the damage to the non dominant populations.

I'm also trying to stay out of the frying pan today. Yesterday was crazy.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. I think the crux of misunderstanding is the way POWER plays into it and seems some

do not want to admit being privileged benefiting from institutional power.

and Yes, yesterday was crazy and now it seems I have somehow offended someone when it was not my intention at all.

That exchange below has left me more confused than ever.

*sigh*

[bravenak]

18. I read it and I am also confused.

I did not like the dismissive attitude on those threads, sort of a suck it up and deal with it. When you are dealing with a people who gave had everything stolen from them, that's a fucked up way to be.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

19. I think I come here looking for affirmation/confirmation/validation about my own

reading comprehension skills/ability.

I want to make sure that other people read and inferred what was implied or, was I mistaken somehow in what transpired.

If I misunderstood what was happening then I want someone to please enlighten/edify/clarify for me.

[bravenak]

20. We all do that.

Come back here like "what the fuck did I just read?" And it always turns out that we read it right. Never fails to confuse me.

[1StrongBlackMan]

32. I think the term "appropriation" is being misused in those threads ...

I do not think anyone has a problem with appropriation; it is the MISAPPROPRIATION of a culture that is problematic.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

33. interesting point and I think it is why I related to the comment about

exchange vs appropriation. However, if in this context, the terminology is to be appropriation rather than misappropriation then I think for the sake of clarity we need to use the words that are already established: assimilation vs appropriation.

Cultural assimilation is the process by which a person or a group's language and/or culture come to resemble those of another group. The term is used to refer to both individuals and groups, and in the latter case it can refer to either immigrant diasporas or native residents that come to be culturally dominated by another society. Assimilation may involve either a quick or gradual change depending on circumstances of the group. Full assimilation occurs when new members of a society become indistinguishable from members of the other group. Whether or not it is desirable for an immigrant group to assimilate is often disputed by both members of the group and those of the dominant society.

more at link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_assimilation

Cultural appropriation is the adoption of elements of one culture by members of a different cultural group, specifically the use by cultural outsiders of a minority, oppressed culture's symbols or other cultural elements.[1][2] It differs from acculturation or assimilation in that cultural "appropriation" or "misappropriation" refers to the adoption of these cultural elements, taken from minority cultures by members of the dominant culture, and then using these elements outside of their original cultural context. This cultural property may be forms of dress or personal adornment, music or art, religion, language, intellectual property or social behavior, all of which may have deep cultural meaning to the original culture, but may be used as fashion by those from outside that culture.

In practice, cultural appropriation involves the appropriation of ideas, symbols, artifacts, image, sound, objects, forms or styles from other cultures, from art history, from popular culture or other aspects of human made visual or non visual culture.[3] Anthropologists have studied the process of cultural appropriation, or cultural borrowing (which includes art and urbanism), as part of cultural change and contact between different cultures.[4]

more at link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation

Exchange Definition
dictionary.search.yahoo.com
v. verb
To give in return for something received; trade.
exchange dollars for francs; exchanging labor for room and board.
To give and receive reciprocally; interchange.
exchange gifts; exchange ideas.
To give up for a substitute.
exchange a position in the private sector for a post in government.

n. noun
The act or an instance of exchanging.
a prisoner exchange; an exchange of greetings.
One that is exchanged.
A place or network for exchanging things, especially a center where securities or commodities are bought and sold.

adj. adjective
Of or relating to a reciprocal arrangement between a local and a foreign institution or group.

misappropriate
verb (used with object), misappropriated, misappropriating.
1.to put to a wrong use.
2.to apply wrongfully or dishonestly, as funds entrusted to one's care.

Examples ... for misappropriate
Echoing a theme of beneficiaries, the misappropriation and theft of food has resulted in a loss of food relief.
They soon determined there was no reason to suspect misappropriation or fraud.
The report alleged widespread misappropriation of aid and the use of forced labor by the army in the delta.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

8. Yes, divide and conquer is what I witnessed today. Thank you.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

11. check your PM.

[marym625]

2. I haven't seen that.

I hope that people are not actually saying something like what it sounds like they're saying.

I get the comparison to saying, "I can empathize to an extent because I am gay." But that's where it ends.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

5. I never said Race was the ONLY culture. n/t

[Tuesday Afternoon]

10. a false question, I have never heard of such a thing. Please enlighten me. And, I can not

substantiate what I claim because it would be calling out DUers that participated in another thread and I am NOT doing that.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

13. discussing it is one thing but using it to make light of another's appropriation is what I don't

Last edited Sun Dec 28, 2014, 05:13 AM - Edit history (1)

understand.

The ~Lighten UP~ dismissive attitude is what I did not understand.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Interesting....because it seems to be a "dimmisive" attitude I see in your OP.

I got your PM. The thread in question mentions being "Jewish" ONCE and "gay" was only mentioned five times. In the five times "gay" was mentioned, two was about gays reclaiming "queer." The better question is why bring something to this group with insinuations and allegations, rather than take it to the thread in question? I find your OP disrespectful to both gays and Jews, as well as this group, unless I am wrong in that you are not AA.

Since this is the AA group, I am self-deleting all other posts in this thread as I find it disrespectful to make this type of allegation and using this group as a battleground. If someone wants copies of what I said, I will have them in a PM.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. again, the mentioning of it WITH the attitude of the posters in regards to the subject matter.

You can find me whatever you want and you can say whatever you want.

but, remember, I find things about you, too.

And your attitude is EXACTLY why I brought it to this group.

and if you are sending out the info via PM ... well, that is hilariously ironic to me but, whatever.

[marym625]

21. I was trying to figure out what you are saying

But you have deleted so much I don't believe I have the entire picture.

I am not trying to have an argument with you, I am hoping for a discussion.

I am glad to see you deleted things that you felt were inappropriate within this group. But if they are inappropriate here, why wouldn't they be inappropriate everywhere?

Also, what is wrong with posting something within a group about something posted in GD? The thread in question is huge. The subthreads are long. To try and have a discussion regarding an aspect of a thread with certain people seems more than reasonable, regardless of the subject or group

Finally, though there is a part of that OP I agree with, the idea of sharing culture and mixing it up, can often help all cultures grow in understanding. Hell, we wouldn't have rock and roll if that never happened. But there is also a kine where the cultures should be respected as to what they want to integrate with other cultures.

I am a bisexual, white woman. I have often said I can understand, to an extent, some of the oppression that is felt and lived by people of color. But there is absolutely no comparison. None, nada, ziltch. As grateful as I have been for people of color to join in the fight for LGBT equality, I can't imagine that any would tell me I am fighting incorrectly. Just like I have never assumed to tell transgender people what, how or when they should fight the oppression they suffer.

There's a difference between assimilation and calling the shots in a culture.

[JustAnotherGen]

22. I would have to see

Where someone identifying as gay or Jewish was used to dismiss the concerns of black people.

There was a thread started yesterday by someone who does identify as homosexual. He/She didn't respond to any of my comments in that thread. And the op was just as bad as another one started by an older Caucasian woman on Friday.

But around DU - I find that to be "not the norm".

Very often I found that other " the others" have a tremendously huge sensitivity chip.

And by clarifying how they have experienced America themselves - they are strong allies and show time and again they have our backs.

ONE poster started a rotten thread and used their sexuality as weapon against our voices yesterday.

If that's the thread that sparked this op ( and I think it is) - your question is a fair one for that poster.

The last thing we need is division amongst others.

Now that said - I saw my father's transformation. He was always accepting of gays and he loved women. But he was a Special Forces Army officer that entered the military in the late 1950's. A time when it was still very tough to be a black man in the military. And adopted beliefs/views he had to adopt in order to survive and move up.

But in his 50's he shifted. DADT disgusted him. As did Tailhook.


And I think I saw a shooting star the night New York legalized same sex marriage.

And the day Tammy Duckworth got elected - was as exciting for him as the night Obama got elected.

I'm sharing this because he had a HUGE sensitivity chip for "the others" and women's issues. Everyone should be able to serve their country honorably - be it in the military, community service, activism.

Don't let one disruptor with a nasty op make you think that this is the norm.

A storm is coming - and we need the help of the GLBT community, feminists, Jews, Muslims, Native Americans, Asians, Hispanic/Latinos-as.

I won't respond to that OP with this - but you need to kick it up, ask the question, and let the chips fall where they may.

Together we can get lower income and middle class white men on board with fair pay and an equal chance at prosperity. Infighting won't foster confidence in that group.

[bravenak]

25. That was the thread.

The Elvis one.

[JustAnotherGen]

26. Wait - Elvis?

Who's picking on Elvis and bringing him into this? Do they not realize he was Melungeon?

And you know I acknowledge and accept the Melungeon as a branch of the African American family. So I'd be interested in seeing that!

[bravenak]

27. Aw man!!

It was something like Elvis was doing y'all a favor when he stole Rock and Roll or some shit like that. It devolved into smug self congratulatory bullshit. Kinda like "we have to steal your stuff and profit from you in order to accept you. Stealing your culture shows your accepted by the majority." It was stupid. Been stealing from us for hundreds of years. Never helped us be accepted before. Lies people tell themselves to protect themselves from seeing how racist the nation really is.

[JustAnotherGen]

28. Jokes on them!

How's Elvis gonna steal what was in him?

[bravenak]

29. That is exactly why I stayed the fuck out of that shit!!

My husband would have the same problem as Elvis. Passability.

[JustAnotherGen]

30. I just bumped up a Carolina thread

Haven't seen him around lately - but to me he's a perfect example of someone who knows their shit!

[bravenak]

31. I'll check it out.

So many lost AA duers.

[Number23]

40. I'm learning more about Melungeons by the week

But where did you hear that Elvis was one? He wasn't from the area that was traditionally Melungeon area and Lord knows he doesn't look anything like traditional Melungeons.

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/05/24/melungeons/

Reading a bit more about them is so interesting. Many Melungeons identified as white and even owned slaves.

[Hekate]

41. A DUer wrote a book about the Melungeons. Have you read it yet?

I'm sorry I can't dredge up the title just now. After the discussion here, which I found fascinating, I went to Amazon and put his book into my shopping cart for further consideration. Along with 300+
other books that I'm considering! So it will take me awhile to locate it, as my new search of Amazon shows there are now many titles and authors to choose from on this topic.

[JustAnotherGen]

23. And Regarding Working Class White Men . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/118710884

We got one - right at that thread.

See - he gets it.

He came to a safe haven group and expressed his dismay.

I'm sure as he states within that thread - he's got enough pressure and stress in his life.

But still - he gives a damn!

Kick that one up for solidarity!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

24. That is one of my favorite people on DU. He is a Treasure.

Thank you for the link.

[LWolf]

34. I'll try.

To answer your question.

Racial and ethnic groups are not the only groups to suffer from bigotry. Any group that has experienced negative discrimination is going to have a pov about it.

And anyone can argue that one group is "too sensitive," based on their own pov.

That said, I'm more interested, at this point in whether there is consensus about assimilation/appropriation within the Black community than what anyone outside that community thinks.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

35. my problem/issue with all this

where does a white, gay person or a white Jewish person come off telling any black person to lighten up?

we are all economically in this together at this point.

and when a black person speaks to their journey why does a gay person or a Jewish person feel the need to think their tribulations have been lessened when a black person speaks to their own trials and tribulations?

and Yes you are right:

And anyone can argue that one group is "too sensitive," based on their own pov.

REALLY ?????

sure they can argue it all they want but, honestly, WHY? to what purpose does THAT serve?

[LWolf]

36. How many things

are said every day that serve no purpose, or that make something worse? It seems to me that MOST of what comes out of someone's mouth, or keyboard, is serving no constructive person...for anyone but the person who needs to speak.

I don't disagree with your premise, if I understand it. At it's core, you want to know why an outsider judges a path they haven't walked, instead of listening to those experiences. I think that's it.

I don't think that any one group should think their own experiences or problems are diminished by acknowledging those of others. I don't think they should, but that doesn't mean that they don't.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

37. and how tolerant should DU3, be as a whole, when we see this happen =

I don't think they should, but that doesn't mean that they don't.

when someone comes in an OP when a person is testifying to their own account and some one of another minority comes in and tells the OP to ~lighten up~

and when they are called out to what they are doing ... it is the person calling out the injustice that gets the hide and NOT the person doing their rationalization for ~lighten up~

on a liberal/progressive/democratic message board that we have to take this to jury Time and Time again.

really?

[LWolf]

38. DU3 tolerates many things that I don't.

And that I wish it didn't.

I've seen the division since the very beginning. You know, back when DU self-identified as "left-wing," and also made rules about supporting Democrats. That right there was a contradiction, since the Democratic Party is not now, and never has been, "left-wing." From the very beginning, I saw partisanship trumping issues.

And issues of social and economic justice, including racial and gender equality, are values that SHOULD be upheld on any "left-wing" site. Of course, with DU3, "left-wing" has become "liberal," which is another whole issue. The pushing of partisan politics over issues, the willingness to throw core values and core constiuencies, under the bus has increased rapidly. I think it has several sources:

The election of a Democrat to the WH, demanding loyalty and support no matter what. I saw the '08 primaries as a predictor of the future, when suddenly, DUers (and Democrats in general) went to battle FOR their candidate and AGAINST the opponent, and supposed core values went out the window. Race vs gender...it wasn't pretty. At least, that's how I viewed it from the outside, being a fan of neither. A fan of neither, because I saw them both as neoliberals.

Also the turning over of moderation to the jury system, which further emphasizes the partisan nature of the site, rather than the upholding of values.

And, of course, the larger the site grows, the more Blue Dogs, centrists, etc. are going to show up. They simply aren't all that liberal or progressive.

There are some other sources, but I don't want to start whole separate wars about them here. Suffice it to say that I agree. There are core values that liberal/progressive forums should uphold, and this really shouldn't be happening.

[Number23]

39. I am particularly fond of the posters that barge into every race thread to talk about how if xx was

going on here instead of racism, the posters doing it would be lauded with a parade down Broad street instead of banned.

As if to say that every racist poster is IMMEDIATELY given the ban hammer and shown the door here. Which is, as we all know, not only full of shit but an absolutely STUNNING display of tone deafness, ignorance and appropriation -- the very things that we have been talking about and trying to, you know, STOP.