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Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:39 AM

I only get into trouble on DU when I try to get to what's real.

****THIS IS POSTED IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN GROUP****

The above notification will hopefully keep too much flack from being hurled in here.

I love Bernie, but I have been banned from the Bernie group. I'm probably the only Bernie support here to be blocked from that group. What I was trying to do was discuss the cause of Bernie's lack of support among the African-American community. That's a serious problem, but I think it's come to light early enough in Bernie's campaign to do something about it.

To fix a problem, you first have to understand the cause. Apparently, a host in the Bernie group feels that gaining such an understanding of Bernie's current problem is beyond the purpose of his or her group. Suggesting a little self-examination of his supporters seems to be too much to ask.

Democratic presidential candidates do not win without strong support from the African American community. Bernie is now polling close to zero in the African-American community. That's a bad problem, and Bernie will lose if it's not sufficiently addressed. Saying as much will get you banned at some places. But that's reality. You can try to deny it, but it's not going to get any better if you ignore it.

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Reply I only get into trouble on DU when I try to get to what's real. (Original post)
Tobin S. Jul 2015 OP
bravenak Jul 2015 #1
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2015 #14
bravenak Jul 2015 #124
ellennelle Jul 2015 #22
1StrongBlackMan Jul 2015 #24
blackspade Jul 2015 #26
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heaven05 Jul 2015 #41
Number23 Jul 2015 #171
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Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:47 AM

1. I saw you get blocked.

 

Jim Webb is polling at 3 percent. Bernie at 6 percent. In the black community.
They do not want to talk about the issues that we want to doscuss, they call it divisive and 'race nagging' (ok, that was one person and they deleted it, but it hurts).

Don't really know what to do about this. I wish they did not truly believe that Bernies record entitles him to black votes. I told them he needs to hire some black people. Some of everybody really.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:16 AM

14. He's got a few now, hopefully he'll get more.

The Black Kos group diary over on Daily Kos had bios on two or three folks inside his campaign who are women of colour. Two AA and a latina, I think it was. But he needs more, and he has to be listening to them. I do think Senator Sanders is certainly better than many of his supporters have turned out to be. He's spent his whole life thinking in terms of economics, though, and so even his view of how to improve the lives of black people is economic-centric. I don't think he's opposed to any form of racial justice that doesn't involve economics, it's just something he hasn't been spending enough time thinking about.

The internet has become a fantastic disruptive technology for putting racial injustice in the faces of white folks who otherwise are 'sheltered' from it in their everyday lives by the racism built into our 'geography' and our media. Unfortunately, I don't think Senator Sanders uses the internet all that much. I suspect most of his net 'presence' is more the result of the work of his staff than the man himself.

In terms of the actions of supporters, I'm not sure how much there is that 'can' be done. While defensiveness is more of a knee-jerk reaction, I don't see how those who didn't 'come around' after the initial surprise are ever really going to change. And those who are STILL trolling Black Twitter people are obviously beyond help in the short term. They'd need to take full semester college classes on current racism, and even then it's a coin flip whether or not they'd change. They're either simply too stupid to see that they're doing major damage to the fragile entrance Sanders has made into the black community, they don't care, or heck, maybe even they're having fun destroying his chances with the black community.

There as article (salon maybe?) that suggested that Bernie might actually be trying to campaign a path that DIDN'T include black voters. That he actually thought he could win back tons of white voters from Republicans and 'didn't need' black people.

I think he CAN win back lots of white voters, but I don't believe he would simply abandon black people. Even if you posit that he himself is covertly bigoted, he simply isn't that poor of a politician. Does he need to be pushed on (non-economic) racial issues? Sure, just like every candidate running. And that will continue to be the case even through his Presidency. Criticism and demands of our politicians only end when they're out of office.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #14)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:57 PM

124. I agree with all of this!!

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:41 AM

22. how can you say this??

bernie has been actively championing civil rights since before you were born! his voting record on these issues is impeccable! what else do you want him to do, paint himself black?

i mean no disrespect, and like so many others - bernie included - am sickened to the marrow at what has been happening to the black community, most especially since obama was elected. i am not black, but i sincerely, honestly, and truly ache for the society that allows this hatred and villainizing to consume us. no one wins when there is even one lose.

that said, we must all take care not to villainize anyone; you then become the very enemy you're trying to quell. as dr. king said so eloquently (of course, even his sighs were eloquent), we have to keep our eyes on the ball. our goal is not to control or take power over or prevail over whites; to do so simply puts blacks in the nasty position of cops and prison guards, and because we are all only human, the temptation to abuse that position of power is almost impossible to withstand (see the new film about the zimbardo experiments).

no, ultimately the goal is to make peace. we have to keep our eyes on that ball. in so doing, we all win.

this, i think, has always been bernie's MO. he has kept a very low profile, just getting things done. consequently, there is no reason why the black community can know anything about him and his impeachable principles and record in favor of the black community. he knows, and has said as much - JUST AS DR. KING KNEW AND SAID - that the race issue is ultimately an economic class issue. never forget this fact. and work to educate everyone in all communities of this fact, and the prevailing fact that bernie is the best candidate to prioritize these issues from the WH.

meanwhile, please don't misinterpret these words as minimizing what communities of color suffer each day; even just the fear factor horrifies me. all i'm trying to say is, when we recognize - as dr. king did and bernie has, as well - that issues of race are fundamentally issues of economic class, of the dominance of wealth for the sake of wealth, our numbers explode to the unified front that is required to correct the problems.

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Response to ellennelle (Reply #22)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:04 AM

24. I agree with much of what you wrote ... until you got to here ...

 

JUST AS DR. KING KNEW AND SAID - that the race issue is ultimately an economic class issue.


That is NOT what Dr. King said ... What he said was the economic class issue is a manifestation of the race issue. There is a difference..

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Response to ellennelle (Reply #22)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:13 AM

26. I agree with most of what you said, but....

You went off the rails in your last paragraph.
The understanding that I have come to is that sanders big problem is just what you indicated, that many white liberals view that problems of race relations as fundamentally about economic class.
That is does not appear to be the case, rather, African Americans come from the opposite tack, which is that economic class is fundamentally about race in their communities.
That understanding should help refocus those of us who support Sanders to better communicate that economics should be looked at through a prism of race rather than race through economics.

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Response to blackspade (Reply #26)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:22 PM

160. economics IS central.

 

The civil rights movement of the 1960s coincided with a period of economic growth for the white middle-class that seemed like it would never end.

You can chart the rise of evangelical Christian churches and republican party membership in the rust belt alongside the closing of factories. People become much more liberal when they're well fed and not in constant fear of losing everything they've worked a lifetime to build.

Asking a person who's lost their retirement savings and has had the benefits they paid for with a lifetime of work cut by the same people who stole their savings and the home they've lived in for thirty years to care about something other than the economy and the criminals who stole it all, to care about anything else is unrealistic.

Asking them to vote for the wife of the president who rigged the system to facilitate that theft is unrealistic.

Thinking that Hillary Clinton will spend one minute of her time or one cent of her political capital on either of our issues is unrealistic.

Thinking that Bernie Sanders had a chance of winning was equally unrealistic, but the chance of voting for someone who supported (at least some) of the ideals of the democratic party was intoxicating.

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Response to blackspade (Reply #26)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:21 PM

174. I think

economic justice is PART of the issue, but not the whole, and not the most immediate need. I see the connection between class and racial injustice, and I believe that economic justice is PART of the solution.

I also know that it's a long-term solution, and that America cannot, should not, MUST not, wait for a better economic condition to enact racial justice.

In the long run, neither laws, programs, and policies to make racial justice a reality, nor closing the economic gaps, will do away with all racism, but both would be a good start.

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Response to ellennelle (Reply #22)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:53 AM

41. I "villanize" the people

 

Last edited Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:37 AM - Edit history (1)

who are openly and I feel with racial bias trying to shut out the AA voice that has concerns and try to put them forth. Yeah, I've been championing civil rights AS LONG AS BERNIE!!!!! 45-50 years ago is fine. What he is going to do now is being questioned and AA are disproportionally being silenced when that question arises, again and again with receiving the same pat answer. "Our guy marched with MLK" and STFU. Yeah sanders is coming around, slowly, since #Black Lives Matter, but free speech is STILL the law of the land here and in the general public. I am letting as many of the general public know of the tactics being used by the sanders group here and asking they come here and see for themselves......The draconian and racist manner in which AA voices are being quieted is obvious and transparent in it's attempt to silence the voices of the AA concerned and only allow the privileged to speak on their candidate. You have an idea of the horror and degradation that the privileged are heaping on the average AA, I have the experience and didn't expect to face it at DU.

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Response to ellennelle (Reply #22)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:55 PM

171. There is so much ignorance and passive aggression in this post, I don't know where to begin

what else do you want him to do, paint himself black?

Holy Hell, did you really just say that?

JUST AS DR. KING KNEW AND SAID - that the race issue is ultimately an economic class issue

You simply could not be more wrong in your assessment of Dr. King and his vision. And it's bad enough that as a self-purported Democrat you don't know, but to then have the unmitigated gall to come into the AA forum and spew your ignorance is just something altogether unreal.

consequently, there is no reason why the black community can know anything about him and his impeachable principles and record in favor of the black community.

If black people don't know what he's done for the black community, then how in the hell do you know what he's done, particularly as you just noted that you are not black???!

Do yourself a favor. Please don't post in this forum again until you have done some deep reading of Dr. King, of the Civil Rights Movement and can provide FIVE CONCRETE POLICIES that Bernie Sanders has implemented that have benefited the black community. Not talked about, not championed -- that he's IMPLEMENTED. Since, according to you and so many other Bernie supporters he's done EVER so much for us over the last 50 years, this won't be hard at all.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #171)

Thu Jul 30, 2015, 12:54 AM

345. Yikes...

what else do you want him to do, paint himself black?

Holy Hell, did you really just say that?


FFS.

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #345)

Thu Jul 30, 2015, 04:26 AM

346. I noticed this person never came back to this thread but got a ping that she posted something damn

near identical to this post in the Bernie Sanders group around the same time.

In the AA group where people are intimately familiar with MLK and his work, the only responses she got were posts that questioned the validity of hers or called it flat out ignorant. In the Sanders group, the same post was met with high fives and +1s.

I don't anything could better illustrate the differences and the issues here than the response to this truly ignorant, idiotic post.

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Response to ellennelle (Reply #22)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:41 PM

217. I am so sick of people misappropriating Dr. King's legacy & bastardizing his words. Not cool.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #217)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:14 AM

262. I know what you mean ...

 

I had a DUer trot out the old yarn that Memphis was Dr. King's shift to an economic focus for poor Black and poor white:

But I DO know that Dr. King recognized that the policies that held the black man down for so long had essentially the same effect on poor white folk, too. I know that the sanitation union that he was in Memphis to march with when he was murdered had both black and white membership (although, only white guys were allowed in the CAB of the garbage truck).


Here's my response (I've had enough of this):

Would you please stop re-writing history ... Please. I know the myth being told ... but it does not comport with history. Here is a link to the speech he gave in Memphis in support of the Union.

http://www.afscme.org/union/history/mlk/ive-been-to-the-mountaintop-by-dr-martin-luther-king-jr

Please point to a single line that would suggest that he was there for the white garbage truck drivers or the white haulers; rather than, the 1,300 Black trash haulers ... striking after the deaths of two Black haulers, crushed to death because the city rules forbade black employees to seek shelter from rain anywhere but in the back of their compressor trucks, with the garbage. And, oh yeah ... they were, also, striking because, as you noted, that rule, also, prevented Black trash haulers from getting the significantly higher paying Driver jobs, too.

Hell, point to a single line that even mentions poor white folks!


And completely expectedly, I have not heard back.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #262)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:02 PM

276. It is a deliberately cynical attempt to rewrite history. I hate it when Republicans do it, and I...

hate it equally when liberals do the same. Dr. King is perhaps the most misquoted figure in American history. His legacy has been sliced & diced to support some of the whackiest shit I've ever heard. None of the candidates have the right to co-opt his legacy, and I don't give a shit when they "marched" or how far.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #217)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 05:00 PM

272. Same here Tarheel_Dem!

I hope you're enjoying a nice weekend.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #272)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:03 PM

277. Having an enjoyable weekend, hope you are as well.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #217)

Sun Jul 26, 2015, 04:09 PM

290. Republicans have tried to appropriate Dr. King's legacy as well...

I remember riding though Jacksonville and seeing a huge billboard:





One of the worst thing about being dead is folks trying to appropriate or misappropiate your legacy.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #290)

Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:27 PM

309. AFAIC, that amounts to near sacrilege. The King family should have sued.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:17 AM

233. If one can't run on one's record, then what else is there? He has ideas that sound good to me...

But what are ideas if he can't use his records to back him up? His records are his credentials.

I don't really understand what the problem is. But one thing that irritates me is the constant reiteration that Bernie has a problem with POC, but no one puts forth any constructive ideas on how to solve the whatever the problem is.

I'd say that Bernie ran low with POC to begin with because not a whole lot of people knew who he was. But then the "Bernie's problem with POC" became conventional wisdom and it is becoming a self-fulfilling prediction.

Instead of shouting that Bernie has a problem with POC, make suggestions on how WE can change that problem and reach out to those who would benefit from a Bernie Presidency.

We are all in this together, black, brown, red, yellow, beige, white, and other. This election may be the most important one in my life time (and I'm nearing 60). If things keep going the way they have been, then we are all heading for serfdom in the new feudal system that seems to be progressing at an alarming rate.

If the United States were the only country that is going down for the third time in the sea of oligarchy, things would not be so dire. But Europe is on the same train track we are. I don't think Asia if all that far behind (or maybe they are getting there ahead of us). The way things usually go, when the ones who have it good no longer have it good, and the ones who were doing just okay are really struggling, then the ones who were struggling are put in desperate situations.





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Response to 1monster (Reply #233)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:27 AM

234. I've told your group 150,000 times how to help Bernie with black people.

 

For my trouble I was called 'race nagger', told that I lack the mental acuity to understand, told how 'MUCH HE'S DONE FOR YOU PEOPLE', told that if I kept talking that white progressuves would 'pull support' from black issues, alerted until I have three hides in three days, annoyed, harassed, called a Lee Atwater plant, told to kiss Hillary's ass, told to get out of the democratic party (not welcome), that money would fix racism, etc. best thing for Bernie would be for his supporters to stfu for a while and listen to what black folks are saying if they want to increase his support.

First of all, those rallys are TOO WHITE to draw black folks to them in large numbers. If we are over thirty percent of the party, the rally should have a GOOD mix of races, not just have us playing 'Where's Waldo' looking for black faces. Second, he has so few blacks on his staff, he has no idea what we think. Third, his supporters call blacks animals and tell them to 'go back to Baltimore' at Netroots and you all wonder why we feel uncomfortable with supporting him? This is why. His message speaks to white progressives and they think his message is supoosed to speak to us. Marches from 50 years ago ain't saving our children! We want to know how he will address racism, but how can we trust a man with such racist supporters? We cannot.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #234)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:46 AM

245. My group? I visit the Bernie group when it hits the front page. I don't spend a lot of time

there. Simply because I don't usually have a lot of time to spend.

You know, if we could sit down over a cup of cappuccino (I'm not into coffee, but I do like chocolate ) and talk face to face, I would enter into this discussion with you. We might find we had a lot of common ground.

But not on a message board.

BTW, I'm a mother too. And a stepmother. And I know, with good reason, what it is to fear and hate the criminal justice system, which is, in my opinion rotten from the top down and the bottom up. I do hope you can save your children. I wasn't able to help one of mine... who is developmentally disabled... when the "criminal justice" came calling.






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Response to 1monster (Reply #245)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:50 AM

248. I bet face to face we would be able to find common ground without the exasperation.

 

It's just been one hell of a week here.
Sorry I am so irritated. I just feel like I've repeated myself so much, it's like I have Bernie Sanders tourettes syndrome.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #234)


Response to Name removed (Reply #296)

Mon Jul 27, 2015, 06:39 PM

298. Now you're a victim too.

 

Weak.

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Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:14 AM

2. I have been rejected as a volunteer

for several campaigns. Invariable the candidate lost. You don't win elections by chasing people away.

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Response to Downwinder (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:33 AM

31. Why the hell would a VOLUNTEER be rejected? They work for free!!

 

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Response to 7962 (Reply #31)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:12 AM

46. Same reason why a lot of us are labeled

Our opinions are unpopular and having a different opinion can get you shunned, no matter the commonality of cause.
s'why I mostly keep shut up.

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Response to 7962 (Reply #31)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:32 AM

73. Beats me.

Prior to the advent of the Internet I offered a statewide campaign all of the equipment and software for a multiline (licensed for 50 lines) BBS, plus the expertise to operate and maintain it. My wife and I were escorted out of the office by the campaign manager.

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Response to 7962 (Reply #31)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:02 PM

110. I have worked on plenty of campaigns where volunteers were rejected or fired ...

 

In most cases, it was because the volunteer was too "enthusiastic" (read: argumentative) or the volunteer wouldn't/didn't take direction, or the volunteer "wanted to run" stuff and the little stuff was beneath them.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #110)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:07 PM

120. And all of that does make perfect sense. Even in a regular workplace!

 

We've all worked with the guy who says "I've got more important things to do than ______"
Or the old joke down south where the guy says "This is how we did it up north"

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Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:16 AM

3. It is difficult to explain something when a group does not care to hear it.

They consider it an attack on Bernie no matter what, and will shut you down if need be.

Democratic presidential candidates do not win without strong support from the African-American community. Bernie is now polling close to zero in the African-American community. That's a bad problem, and Bernie will lose if it's not sufficiently addressed. Saying as much will get you banned at some places. But that's reality. You can try to deny it, but it's not going to get any better if you ignore it.


I posted several links to explain this and they seem to bend over backwards to misunderstand, and considered it an attack. smh, I'm done talking about it. Hopefully, Bernie has AA friends in congress he can talk to.

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Response to Stellar (Reply #3)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:19 AM

15. I agree that we need a healthy discussion. Having "safe" areas is a mistake since it seems

we are all just agreeing with each other about how we're #1! Having good monitoring to weed out troublemakers is a must though, but there is a difference. How can you work together to address deficiencies if you cannot admit to them in the first place?

I am a rabid Bernie supporter who admits that Bernie needs help in the area of black outreach, although I think he recognizes it and is working with Black Lives Matter now. I strongly believe that Bernie is the best candidate out there for the black community because he sincerely believes in equality for all. Being a white man married to a black woman has been a learning experience for me for sure. No one can ever truly "walk a mile in someone else's shoes," but it sure helps to try. We should all try to imagine where people are coming from to better understand why they feel/believe the way they do. It makes it easier to persuade them and helps to change yourself as well. A better understanding of human nature helps a lot as well. When you put aside cultural/religious and societal differences, people are pretty much the same. They want the same things for their selves and their families.

I hope we can educate the black community, as well as other minority communities, about Bernie and what he stands for. He may not be hip or cool, but in his heart he wants all Americans to have opportunity and success. At the end of the day it's all we can ask for.

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Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:53 AM

53. +1

I am a rabid Bernie supporter who admits that Bernie needs help in the area of black outreach, although I think he recognizes it and is working with Black Lives Matter now.


Good! That was one of the suggestions that I've been making everywhere on-line for days.

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Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 01:56 PM

103. Noooo---I think "the black community" needs to educate the "Bernie supporter community"--not the

other way around.

I hope we can educate the black community, as well as other minority communities, about Bernie and what he stands for. He may not be hip or cool, but in his heart he wants all Americans to have opportunity and success. At the end of the day it's all we can ask for.


Good grief, that statement just set the WRONG TONE with me. It smacks of condescension. Here's what I am hearing from you:

If those silly people just sit down, shut up and LEARN, and of course, vote as they're told-- all will be well.

I think the people who need to do the learning are the ones who do not understand that Black Lives Matter.

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Response to MADem (Reply #103)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:11 PM

111. I know, Huh? ...

 

I hope we can educate the black community, as well as other minority communities, about Bernie and what he stands for. He may not be hip or cool, but in his heart he wants all Americans to have opportunity and success. At the end of the day it's all we can ask for.


Doesn't that suggest that the black community doesn't know who and what Bernie is about; rather than, us knowing and having formed an opinion?

I think the people who need to do the learning are the ones who do not understand that Black Lives Matter.


I think the people who need to do the learning are the ones who most think they understand what needs to be done ... to educate the Black community about Bernie.

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Response to MADem (Reply #103)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:16 PM

172. I felt the same way when I read that. BERNIE and the rest of them need educating, not us

We know what the problems are. THEY need the education and whether they are smart enough to understand that and take those desperately needed lessons are the only things that matter now.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #172)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:14 PM

193. I am a bit surprised at the amount of likely unaware, or unintentional, or dare I say

"privileged" cluelessness I have encountered on this issue. Boggles the mind.

And even when it's explained, the reply is still "But ... but..." with some kind of "You're not going to get a better deal" threat at the end.

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Response to MADem (Reply #193)

Mon Jul 27, 2015, 10:49 PM

305. It does boggle.. but, not entirely surprising to me.

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Response to MADem (Reply #193)

Fri Jul 31, 2015, 09:30 AM

348. I'm coming in late to this thread but it is so good and I wanted to chime in, mainly to wrap

my own head around what I can do. One of the stubbornest bubbles around is the white bubble. And yes, it boggles the mind. I live in a college town with about 25% Black, 10% Latino and 5% Asian. I'm white, and the conversations about race with white, democratic, highly educated friends at dinner can be, let's just say, OMG. It's like, I'm aiming at the target, shooting at the target and the idea arrows just keep bouncing off. Some of the choices of people of color are just bewildering to them...yet they don't get out of their comfort zone much, ask and listen, change their white-centered priorities, seek out POC voices or history, or make determined efforts to question their paternalism. These are mainly people over 50, and politically engaged.

Anyway, I'm going to keep taking aim at that "privileged" cluelessness, including my own.

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Response to MADem (Reply #103)

Mon Jul 27, 2015, 10:47 PM

304. Exactly, MADem.. As If.. the Black Community needs "educating" by bernie supporters..

Some in their arrogance and ignorance have already tried and insulting failed.

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Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:39 PM

154. Do you feel that we shouldn't have an AA group?

It is a safe haven as well.

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Response to Stellar (Reply #3)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:08 AM

25. I'm done trying to explain, too ...

 

I got tagged with a HRC-supporter label for me effort.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #25)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:54 AM

54. LOL

must be with the enemy if you don't pledge your undying love immediately.

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Response to Stellar (Reply #54)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:28 AM

71. Either you fer us or against us ...

 

remember when Democrats/liberals condemned such thought?

But amazingly, the same folks doing that crap ... absolutely lose they sh!t over "loyalty pledges", when Democrats advocate Democrats voting for the Democratic nominee, whomever that nominee might be.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #71)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:16 AM

238. Yup. Many have unduly criticized President Obama for years.

I'm wary of posters who spend most of their time attacking democrats.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #238)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 08:25 AM

257. Posted for its explanatory data ...

 

Sanders 22% overall support
26% identifying at very liberal
19% identifying as liberal
16% identifying as moderate
31% identifying as somewhat conservative
42% identifying as very conservative


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Response to lovemydog (Reply #238)


Response to Stellar (Reply #54)

Tue Jul 28, 2015, 08:15 AM

324. You must not only AGREE, but agree ENTHUSIASTICALLY. Or else! n/t

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Response to freshwest (Reply #324)

Tue Jul 28, 2015, 08:47 AM

325. Or else,

you're back to square one, you're with the enemy.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #25)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:55 AM

237. That was probably me.

Please accept my apology. I have a tendency, especially on this site, to construe criticism of one candidate with support of the other. Stupid binary thinking, and I apologize.

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Response to LiberalAndProud (Reply #237)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 08:20 AM

256. No need to apologize; but, it is accepted ...

 

though you were not one of those that come to mind ... probably because I have rarely, if ever, seen you go off the rails or over the top.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #256)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:00 PM

268. Humor.

'cuz it just happened to me.

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Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:32 AM

4. I was banned from a Hillary group. If you can't defend your position, the easiest thing to do,

 

block the person. Then you don't have to think about it.

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Response to Hoppy (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:12 AM

12. I think this more the rule than the exception. nt

 

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Response to Hoppy (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:31 AM

29. I was notified I was banned from the Hillary group, even though I hadn't posted a single thing there

 

talk about touchy

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Response to HFRN (Reply #29)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:36 AM

32. Damn, you must have some power! A "pre emptive blocking"! Sounds like a W move!

 

" We must block this person before they have the chance to do any damage"

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Response to 7962 (Reply #32)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:50 AM

39. really makes you want to vote for her nt

 

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Response to 7962 (Reply #32)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:25 PM

108. It's a false statement. Hosts can only block a person by clicking a link on the post they made IN

the group.

Sounds real good though, doesn't it? Pity me, I'm a victim of POWERFUL forces!!

Invention does not enhance credibility--don't buy everything you read.

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Response to MADem (Reply #108)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:15 PM

112. Surprises me that someone would make that claim openly!

 

I dont know how all the behind the scenes stuff works here, but as touchy as so many are the claim didnt surprise me either.
Seems like he/she would know that if it wasnt true, they would be called out on it!
But I see no response to your statement from the poster, nor am I familiar with them. I AM familiar with YOU so I'll consider myself a bit better educated on how this works.
Maybe they'll respond?? But I doubt it.

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Response to MADem (Reply #108)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:17 PM

113. Oh come on ... he/she said he/she was NOTIFIED that he/she was banned from the Hillary group ...

 

but it wouldn't be so difficult to produced the PM ... unless the notification was telepathically transmitted or my favorite, "implied".

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #113)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:02 PM

135. It's incredible, isn't it?

I'm not a fan of faux victimology, and there's no way what he/she said could have happened without first posting something nasty in the protected group.

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Response to MADem (Reply #135)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:12 PM

140. Would the host that did the blocking retain the offending post ...

 

that did happen?

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Response to HFRN (Reply #29)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:51 AM

61. My jaw literally dropped.

And I always thought that was a figure of speech. Talk about stalking!

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #61)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:20 PM

114. Do you really believe that post? n/t

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #114)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:26 PM

125. I guess not, since I got more info.

Before that, I had no idea how the system worked.

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Response to HFRN (Reply #29)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:06 PM

87. I don't think you can do that - at least in AfAm we don't have that ability

We can't block until after you have posted.

'Super Powers' button doesn't exist when you are off your group page.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #87)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:09 PM

138. Hmmmm, maybe things are "separate but not equal" with the other group hosts?

They get a better, more useful "superpowers" button, or something?

That was a bitter joke, for the humor-impaired!


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Response to MADem (Reply #138)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:14 PM

143. Love ya man!

They also get ten hosts in the b.s. group. I'd love to add heaven and kwassa as hosts - but we are limited.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #143)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:18 PM

145. Really? We can't add more?

Hmmm. Maybe the hosts should approach Skinner--we need coverage in the east-coast morning hours, I think....!

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Response to MADem (Reply #145)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:24 PM

147. Yep

Number23 and brave can get wee small hours and late nights.

BT and me East Coast.

Not sure about op.

But I think we need more with the election coming and the heightened fighting and pugnacious approach from some Sanders and Clinton folks and them taking it out on black folks who aren't for their candidate.

O'Malley group folks - which I'm an active member of - not a single person blocked and the hosts do a great job of keeping it positive.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #147)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:30 PM

149. Gotta take that up with Elad, really--that's not enough.

Not with all the #blm pushback.


I know he can fix it. Probably with a few button pushes, too.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #143)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:41 PM

218. Groups are allowed different numbers of hosts?

Correct me if I heard wrong. Not right if I heard right.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #218)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 06:24 AM

252. Yes

HRC - 7 slots
B.S. - 10
Warren - 3 But that might be because the Hosts don't want that many?

We have 5 slots.

I don't think it's anything nefarious - it might be a function of what folks asked for when the groups were started!

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #143)


Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #87)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:23 AM

239. Dammit.

I wanted a Super Powers button.

I'd go through GDP pressing it. It would get some folks to simmer down.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #87)

Tue Jul 28, 2015, 05:17 AM

322. No host has that ability. They must post first, exactly as MADem said. Skinner said so in ATA. So...

I don't believe this or perhaps they were blocked by another group. I remember a kerfluffel when someone who had been banned by Energy, etc. group complained in a thread.

The posters on the thread immediately jumped in to loudly complain that they had also been bluffed by the infamoust BOG or HOF in a knee jerk manner.

Until some people noted he'd not been blocked by either, but the Energy group did it!

I've been asked to a Host to some groups and refused. For the reason that I was not able to pre-emptively block people who were overwhelming hostile to the group's SOP.

And the kicker is that the post can't be removed, even after it successfully makes the group members avoid the stench. Only a jury can do that. So they come in an smear feces on the wall and tell all their friends to come take a look at their artwork.

But a Host can, no reason given at all, block a member when they post, even if they just say, 'Hi, how ya doing!' and the BSG and PU have done this at lot. Because they know what the other posts they've made are, or made a decision they are not real BSers. Which gives no room for a person to change their mind and become a BSer.

I think DU is going through the 2016 version of Operation Chaos started by Rush in 2008. It was designed to take down the front runner of the Democratic Party by attacking through the second closest candidate with faux support.

Then if that person becomes the front runner, they attack the one going down to create more ill feelings, purportedly from the 'losing' candidate's supporter. Whatever happens, it's done to spilt and demoralize the party.

I sense that is happening here with these clearly malignant and unDemocratic Party platform posts that attack the current front runner HRC by apparent BS supporters. If BS gets ahead, they'll attack as supposed HRC supporters.

They pushed lies about Hillary that were supposed to be from Obama people when she was ahead; then attacked Obama with lies supported to come from the HRC supposed supporters against Obama when he got ahead. This plan has already been promoted by GOP groups.

So these attacks on the mainstay of the Democratic Party, black people, especially females, is a strike at the MOST important voting block in the party. To turn people off from voting. And it's worked like a charm since 1972.

Why mess with success?

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Response to HFRN (Reply #29)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:00 PM

104. You do know that is a false statement, don't you?

HFRN
29. I was notified I was banned from the Hillary group, even though I hadn't posted a single thing there
View profile
talk about touchy


You can't be banned from a group UNTIL you have posted in it.
If you don't believe me, you can look it up--it's in the guidelines.


So....you might want to revise and correct your remarks, there.....

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Response to MADem (Reply #104)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:04 PM

105. when i received the notification, i searched theough 'My Posts' to find a post in that forum

 

and couldnt find one

if I'm mistaken, feel free to re-print the post i made in that forum- i'd like to know

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Response to HFRN (Reply #105)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:17 PM

107. It is a physical impossibility to get banned from a group you haven't posted in.

The host has to click on the post WITHIN THE GROUP in order to activate the banning process, using host "superpowers." There's no wiggle room there--you can NOT be banned from a group you've never posted in. Period. Paragraph.

You have a search function, I would urge you to use it.

You are mistaken, and you can ask the admins if you don't believe me (FWIW, I am a host of a few groups, and have been a forum host in the past). I'm not going to hunting for your post--you obviously wandered in and said something the group didn't like.

Your banning notice probably happened around the time you made the post. That date will help you focus your search.

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Response to MADem (Reply #107)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:41 PM

109. well, i'll take your word for it

 

although it would be a technical, rather than physical impossibility

I'm guessing the board is run by a computer, rather than mechanical gears

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Response to HFRN (Reply #109)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:13 PM

142. No--I meant physical, as in visible, tangible, real, actual

phys·i·cal
ˈfizik( ə )l /
adjective
1.
of or relating to the body as opposed to the mind.
"a whole range of physical and mental challenges"
synonyms: bodily, corporeal, corporal, somatic; More
2.
of or relating to things perceived through the senses as opposed to the mind; tangible or concrete.
"pleasant physical environments"
synonyms: material, concrete, tangible, palpable, solid, substantial, real, actual, visible
"the physical universe"


And, like I said, don't take my word--ATA.

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Response to MADem (Reply #142)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:16 PM

144. I'm sorry, technical better describes the impossibility

 

tech·ni·cal
ˈteknək(?l/
adjective
adjective: technical

1.
of or relating to a particular subject, art, or craft, or its techniques.
"technical terms"
(especially of a book or article) requiring special knowledge to be understood.
"a technical report"
synonyms: specialist, specialized, scientific; More
complex, complicated, esoteric
"this might seem very technical"
2.
of, involving, or concerned with applied and industrial sciences.
"an important technical achievement"
synonyms: practical, scientific, technological, high-tech
"an important technical achievement"

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Response to HFRN (Reply #144)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:25 PM

148. Well, the admins have super powers that transcend groups.

The technical ability to transcend groups exists, they just aren't granted to the lower authorities in this board's hierarchy. Thus, the group hosts lack the power to act outside their own areas but others, like the admins, can wield those powers anywhere they choose.

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Response to MADem (Reply #148)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:39 PM

153. I'm impressed nt

 

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Response to HFRN (Reply #105)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:22 PM

115. Check your "Inbox" ...

 

the "notification" would be there.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #115)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:24 PM

116. where did you think i found the notification, if not the 'inbox'?

 

a paper airplane, through my window?

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Response to HFRN (Reply #116)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:58 PM

118. Then post the notification and prove, what many, including me, thinks is a lie.

 

It really is that simple. a lot simpler, and more effective/definitive, than typing a wise ass comment!

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #118)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:59 PM

119. here you go, inquisitive one

 

Automated Message
Automated Message: You have been blocked from a group

Mail Message
You have been blocked from posting in the Hillary Clinton group by hrmjustin. If you believe this is an error, you may contact hrmjustin for more information.

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Response to HFRN (Reply #119)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:25 PM

121. Thank you ... Was that so difficult? n/t

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #121)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:29 PM

122. well, as a rule i dont forward mail that others send me

 

even if the content was discourteous to me

but, if your mind is really that Enquiring.....

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Response to HFRN (Reply #119)


Response to HFRN (Reply #29)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:02 PM

134. That's not true. You have posted in the group before

 

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #134)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:13 PM

141. well, i stand corrected

 

looks like i did post there, over 2 weeks ago

and i am impressed, with your ability to monitor other persons on the internet

time well spent, I'm sure

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Response to HFRN (Reply #141)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:34 PM

150. It's called advanced search

 

took me about 10 seconds to find your post.

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Response to HFRN (Reply #141)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:32 PM

163. You were making a false claim.. it's so easy to disprove that.

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Response to Cha (Reply #163)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:54 PM

186. well, i must recognize, that you all know the ins and outs of the messagboard

 

and who is posting what

that's something for the resume

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Response to HFRN (Reply #186)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:33 PM

215. It's something for your resume that you made a false claim and then when it's disproved you try

to make it about something else.

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Response to HFRN (Reply #186)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:52 PM

219. Well, you stated it could happen,

(getting banned where you hadn't posted), and it was proved that you had in fact posted.

Sounds reasonable and fair to me.

And if I saw on a resume that someone had in fact proved such, I would in fact be impressed.

I'm a fan of facts.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #134)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:08 PM

158. Aha.. the proof from July 9, 2015.. We all knew you can't be blocked from a group without

posting in there.. Mahalo Cali

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Response to HFRN (Reply #29)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:07 AM

225. I suspect that you were banned for this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1107&pid=11637

You likely didn't realize you were in the HRC group.

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Response to LiberalAndProud (Reply #225)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:35 AM

228. correct - i am learning as a 'newbie', that there are numerous eggshells

 

to avoid stepping on on this site

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Response to HFRN (Reply #228)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:41 AM

230. I can imagine.

Welcome to DU.

We're a raucous bunch and you're right about eggshells and landmines. Tread lightly and you'll be fine. Plenty of opinions to choose from. Many very bright and informed people. Food fights galore.

Like I said, welcome to DU.

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Response to HFRN (Reply #228)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:26 AM

240. "Newbie"

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Response to zappaman (Reply #240)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:28 AM

241. Shhhhhh!

 

We're not supposed to know.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #240)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:48 AM

247. LOL!


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Response to HFRN (Reply #29)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 08:14 AM

255. *Jury results*

I was notified I was banned from the Hillary group, even though I hadn't posted a single thing there
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=19466

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

lying every chance it gets.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jul 25, 2015, 05:05 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The Hillary group is touchy.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: You know it is possible the poster isn't lying, but just didn't realize he/she had replied to a comment in the HRC group. You guys really are touchy!
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This particular post was not by itself offensive. Please save your complaints for posts that are abusive, disruptive, or offensive.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to RiverLover (Reply #255)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 08:40 AM

258. thanks for posting

 

this sub thread has told me a lot about this site

lots of very negative energy here

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Response to HFRN (Reply #258)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:54 AM

265. Yes.

Very negative.

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Response to RiverLover (Reply #255)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:12 AM

260. .

Last edited Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:56 PM - Edit history (1)



Tacky

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Response to HFRN (Reply #29)


Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:36 AM

5. Got a question - have you tried contacting the Host that blocked you and discussing it?

I can't say it'll have any effect but it seems a positive thing to do

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Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:41 AM

6. While I am definitely a

Hillary supporter, I urge you not to judge Bernie himself by the overzealousness of some of his DU "proponents."

Those who are nastiest to you may actually be trolls. The candidate himself would likely be horrified by their words/actions.

What you say is true and shows basic common sense. One can't ignore any significant community and concerns that are integral to that community's support. African-Americans have issues that are specific to the AA community and that must be addressed by ALL candidates. Not recognizing that fact and/or not discussing/addressing these issues openly will not win support from that community.

Thanks for letting me post here. To clarify, I am a woman of Western/Northern European origin and do not qualify as AA. My extended family includes people from different races, faiths, and continents.

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Response to BlueMTexpat (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:13 AM

13. +1000 nt

 

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Response to BlueMTexpat (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:20 PM

173. Thanks for your post. And I agree with you.

I urge you not to judge Bernie himself by the overzealousness of some of his DU "proponents."

That is excellent advice. It will be hard to take but it would be good for everyone if we tried desperately to separate the man from his "supporters" here who do nothing but provide ample reasons to not only NOT support Bernie Sanders, but run screaming every time someone even mentions his name.

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Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:50 AM

7. No difference from Howard Dean, Dennis Kucinich, etc etc

Only 1% of Howard Dean adherents were African American:-



Some of that is down to mundane reasons. Both Dean and Sanders are from the same largely white state. As such most of their supporters originated from that demographic.

More fundamentally, white radicals have always fared poorly with Black voters, even going back as far as Upton Sinclair. The Communists and Socialists found it very difficult to recruit Black workers, although they made significant efforts (eg funding the legal defence for the Scottoboro Boys).

On the flipside, black radicals have always fared poorly with white voters, even if their politics were simply left-wing rather than Black nationalist (eg Shirley Chisholm).

The upshot of all that is that any serious Black candidate today sticks as close to the political centre as possible to avoid spooking the horses (ie Obama) and any white candidate generally seeks to do the same (Clinton).

Whats interesting is that Dean never encountered overt hostility due to the makeup of his support base, whereas Sanders currently does.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #7)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:02 AM

23. Why?? Progressives are frustrated that they don't gain ground, in spite of economic inequality

Progressives are consistently pro-equality, pro-civil rights, pro-human rights but also pro-lower class, in favor of programs that benefit the poor.

Why does their message consistently not resonate with AA people?

Democrats can't win without POC. Why do AA people prefer centrists rather than progressives?

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #23)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:32 AM

30. Since you are posting here, I assume that it is because you wish to hear an answer ...

 

I will attempt to provide a very abbreviated answer ... it will be my answer, and my answer alone, informed by my life's experience and the many, many conversations I have had on the topic ... and you can rest assured, if I go too far afield, the members of this group will challenge my answer.

Progressives are consistently pro-equality, pro-civil rights, pro-human rights but also pro-lower class, in favor of programs that benefit the poor.


This is true and few will argue against this.

Why does their message consistently not resonate with AA people?


Partly because of the messenger; partly because of the message. The message is *always* delivered in a way that is understood as economic injustice, then everything else. And the messengers' passion(?) leads to directive and dictation.

Why do AA people prefer centrists rather than progressives?


Because "incrementalism" is not a bad word to the African-American community ... "progressives" tend towards "all or nothing", rhetoric and improbable solutions. I could give example after example of asking "How do you expect to move more than half of Congress to accomplish {this or that}?" and the solution always starts with "IF ONLY" ... that is not a plan, that is a wish.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #30)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:47 AM

38. Thank you 1StrongBlackMan.

I will think that over. Very thoughtful answers.

The last comment about incrementalism - perhaps AA's HAVE to be realistic -- have less patience for improbable solutions - because they are stuck dealing wil real life situations every day, injustice is not an abstraction but a daily reality?

The second comment, that the messages are always delivered in frame of economic injustice, is interesting an important as well. (Jung said, tell me a person's greatest pain today, and I'll tell you his greatest growth tomorrow.) Progressives are often ideologues, they feel this sharp contrast between their economic framework / interpretation (capital is exploiting the working class and needs to be restrained) and the mainstream economic theology (capitalism do or die). If you see blue when the rest of the world says it's red, you get more adamant or focused om what you see that others don't. Maybe if Progressives really listen to your second comment, it could make them better by being seen as less ideological and more rounded in their message. Which could help not only with AA but with moderates who get scared by "ideologues".

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #38)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:11 PM

89. Jung? OK, you have my attention.

This is a very good conversation.

Just so rarely see "Jung" mentioned on the internets, I had to comment.

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Response to AllFieldsRequired (Reply #89)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:29 PM

93. Actually

I jokingly considered Jungianism to be "my religion" for a long time because I find the way of looking at inner tension to be so helpful and enriching to dealing with problems in my life, turning pain into creative energy, and being mindful of the need for reflection.

It occurs to me that he is also considered racist in some of his ideas, though. An epidemic of his era (and our own too).

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #30)

Sun Jul 26, 2015, 05:43 AM

284. Incrementalism moves both forward and back.

 

This might be the wrong place to post this, if it is I apologize, but no one who claims to be speaking for the progressives has expressed my perspective in anything resembling a coherent manner.

I apologize if this seems like an attack. It's not meant to be. It's just my personal, emotional reaction to what's been happening.

----

If the New Deal and the Great Society legislation and regulations had remained intact, and the work that unions had been fighting and dying for since the late 1800s not been wiped away, and all the work of 100 years by progressives not been reversed by "centrist", Third Way, republican/Democrats over the past 25 years, progressives might be more receptive to the voting demographic that elected the politicians who caused it.

If anyone disputes the "black vote" elected Bill Clinton and his generation of pseudo-dems, there are many informative posts in this thread that explain it in great detail.

It doesn't help that when we warned that the DLC and it's champion Bill Clinton would do all of this, we were mocked and effectively thrown out of our own party. It's tough to see tragedy coming and be powerless to stop it. That's a large part of the BLMs argument, if I understand it correctly. That seeing these tragedies coming, and watching them happen over and over again is heartbreaking, and that having no one listen to you when you try to shout at the top of your lungs that it's happening, causes an anger that can't be ignored.

Progressives, in one form or another have been fighting for black lives since black people were livestock. Progressives have been fighting to improve the quality of black lives since reconstruction. Progressives have been sacrificing their lives, metaphorically and literally since before this country existed.

We've fought a lot of fights that benefited a lot of people.

I'm sorry if that's not politic to say, but it's true.

When I say that, I'm not asking for thanks or for any special favor. The good that was done is gone. There is nothing left to thank previous generations for. The scars my 90 year old grandfather still has from the beatings the cops and the union busters gave him for his effort to establish worker protections were wasted. There's no more 40 hour work week, or 8 hour day, and soon, no more unions at all.

It wasn't us that took all that away. It wasn't us that elected the criminals that stole the collected wealth of an entire generation of humans. We didn't have the numbers in the democratic party to prevent it. We still don't.

The fate of the American system of government (such as it is), is not actually the most pressing matter, neither is the fate of any demographic of America's citizens.

The next election will decide the the fate of the air we breath, the water we drink, and the food we eat. The next election will decide who lives and dies on a global scale. It will be unlike anything seen in human history. It will rival an ice age in its destruction.

Oh, yeah, there's gonna be an ice age. That's on the centrists too. We told you so.

Not satisfying, but it's all we get.
-------
Regarding the unrealistic hopes of progressives, there are two points I'd like to make.

First, there is a right and wrong way of doing things. There is away that works, and a way that doesn't. There are actions that improve peoples lives and actions they ruin them.

We advocate what is good and what works and will help people.

Centrists advocate whatever is popular, then do whatever is profitable to themselves and their benefactors once they have power.

That's the choice before you.

Second, change is always seen as unreasonable.
--------
Thank you for your time. I know I rambled, but I've been thinking about this since it happened and wanted to get it all down in one place. If this is unwelcome in this forum, I will remove it.


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Response to spqr78 (Reply #284)

Sun Jul 26, 2015, 10:57 AM

287. I had to read this three times to be certain you were saying what I thought I read ...

 

And, it appears that I read it correctly the first time; so forgive me if this comes across as an attack ... Are you insane?

If the New Deal and the Great Society legislation and regulations had remained intact, and the work that unions had been fighting and dying for since the late 1800s not been wiped away, and all the work of 100 years by progressives not been reversed by "centrist", Third Way, republican/Democrats over the past 25 years, progressives might be more receptive to the voting demographic that elected the politicians who caused it.


First, the New Deal and the Great Society legislation and regulations remain intact, and the work that unions had been fighting and dying for since the late 1800s has not been wiped away ... and fuck you, if you think you can lay the recent and current attempts to roll back the gains of the early 20th century at the feet of the Black electorate, if that's what you meant by, "the voting demographic that elected the politicians who caused it."

Yes, Black voters came out, in force, for Bill Clinton ... and so did better than half the Democratic Party, because we, all, made the electability calculation. Do you really believe the progressive darling, Jerry Brown could have beat the incumbent President, Pappy Bush? While Brown had the better platform of all the candidates in the field, Democratic or republican, the American electorate turns very, very slowly. And, after nearly 20 years of republican administrations (with a brief respite during the Carter years), a Brown Presidency was considered a race, too far ... disappointing; but, a reasonable calculation based on historical electoral politics.

Progressives, in one form or another have been fighting for black lives since black people were livestock. Progressives have been fighting to improve the quality of black lives since reconstruction. Progressives have been sacrificing their lives, metaphorically and literally since before this country existed.

We've fought a lot of fights that benefited a lot of people.


I really don't understand this chest beating and self-back slapping ... first, do you want a rhetorical cookie for doing what the left, hell ... human beings, are supposed to do? And/but more, what does that history have to do with the current "less receptiveness" towards Black Lives, now?

Make no mistake, the driving force behind BLM is, as you mention, the heart-breaking voicelessness on issues that are paramount to them/us; so, it is/was no coincidence that BLM chose the progressive forum of NRN to be heard. In my estimation, there is no better example of the promotion of that voicelessness, than Bernie's economic primacy message (sorry O'Malley, he just got caught in the cross-fire, as his campaign message is far more balanced between economic and racial interests).

If you, progressives, think Black folks should/would sit still for discussions about your purse (or, even, our purses) while we are, literally, dying in the streets, because you put, in your estimation, in enough time on the issue, you can kiss my Black ass.

When I say that, I'm not asking for thanks or for any special favor. The good that was done is gone. There is nothing left to thank previous generations for. The scars my 90 year old grandfather still has from the beatings the cops and the union busters gave him for his effort to establish worker protections were wasted. There's no more 40 hour work week, or 8 hour day, and soon, no more unions at all.


That is a bunch of facile bull shit, conspiratorial facile bullshit, at that. The decline in union membership is more traceable to unions' becoming the monster that they were born to fight AND a generation (or more) of narcissistic workers. There is NOTHING that stops workers from organizing beyond a generalized disinterest in doing the work to do so. The mechanisms and protections remain in place ... it is no more, or less difficult to organize a workplace, today, than it was in 1980. But/and, organizing is far easier today, than it was in the immediate years after union membership peaked in 1954.

But that said ... As unions grew in numbers and, therefore, influence, they became (or, were/are perceived as) hierarchical, bureaucratized, top down organizations, that lost touch with its rank and file ... which is not unusual for movements shortly after their reaching a critical mass; it happened/is happening in the (Black) Civil Rights Movement, the Feminist Movement, the LGBT Movement, La Raza Movement, etc., even as these movements continue.

Couple that with a generation (or more) of workers that buy into the immediate gratification of Meism, that have little connection to "the struggle", as they were born into its benefits. It is of no wonder that (just as with the Black Civil Rights movement) the current beneficiaries are less engaged.

The fate of the American system of government (such as it is), is not actually the most pressing matter, neither is the fate of any demographic of America's citizens.

The next election will decide the the fate of the air we breath, the water we drink, and the food we eat. The next election will decide who lives and dies on a global scale. It will be unlike anything seen in human history. It will rival an ice age in its destruction.

Oh, yeah, there's gonna be an ice age. That's on the centrists too. We told you so.


I, largely, agree here, though I see little space between the Democratic candidates on addressing climate change.

No. I, actually, don't think you are insane ... but, rather a/the product of being at the political extreme that benefits from being on the outside yelling at those that actually get things done; albeit, slowly and through pragmatic compromise.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #287)

Mon Jul 27, 2015, 02:03 AM

292. we're getting closer.

 

"No. I, actually, don't think you are insane ... but, rather a/the product of being at the political extreme that benefits from being on the outside yelling at those that actually get things done; albeit, slowly and through pragmatic compromise."

First, we aren't the political extreme, that's a common mistake. I could post links to decades of polls that show bipartisan support for progressive ideals among the majority of Americans, but it's not actually necessary. Just listen to the rhetoric of Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, and Hillary Clinton. Look at the campaign promises they made. The lies they tell, are essentially the progressive agenda, with a few caveats and a warning that the other party probably won't let them do it.

Second, how many times does "pragmatic compromise" have to result in the exact opposite of the stated goals of the party before you stop and ask if maybe someone (or everyone) on our side of the negotiating table might have lied about their intentions? Will 30 years be enough? Because if 8 years of Hillary Clinton isn't going to do it, I'm gonna move to...well...any other country in the developed world, any country but Greece, that centrist utopia of compromise and fiscal austerity, I'm gonna move to one of the grown up countries where the extremists have instituted radical programs to provide Health care, education, and economic protections from corporate predators.

I want to experience the wild abandon of the Canadian way of life.
----------
"I largely, agree here, though I see little space between the Democratic candidates on addressing climate change."

I see no difference between the centrist candidates of the democratic/republican partys at all. When you consider the "All of the above" (more fossil fuels please!) Policies of the centrist candidates, there's no hope there. They aren't even bothering to lie anymore.
-----------
"First, the New Deal and the Great Society legislation and regulations remain intact, and the work that unions had been fighting and dying for since the late 1800s has not been wiped away"

OK, a lot to cover.

There's two ways to undo governmental protections. First, repeal or replace a law, as with the Glass-Steagall Act or Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act (welfare "reform", or through stripping agencies of the people who want to enforce regulations and replacing them with industry insiders, as they did with the Securities and Exchange Commission, the EPA, the FDA, and most tragically, the commodity futures trading commission. If you don't know who Brooksley Born is, it's worth your time to look her up.

You understand that the economic crash of 2008 was Clinton's fault right? That Allen Greenspan and his boys engineered it? That it was predicted, in detail, and warned against?

Allen Greenspan's boys of course were Tim Geithner, Larry Summers, and Ben Bernanke. Hmm, why do those names sound so familiar?
----------
Education was a big part of the Great Society, how's that going? Has privatization saved us yet? Did slashing budgets until teachers had to spend the little money they make to by basic supplies for students work? If the goal was educating kids, no. If the intention was breaking unions, and the corporate takeover of education, absolutely yes! Well done centrists.
-----------
The Clinton crime bill. Centrists or progressives?
-----------
It's possible you could have been more wrong about unions. Maybe you were short on time.

You wrote, "That is a bunch of facile bull shit, conspiratorial facile bullshit, at that." Then you say a bunch of things that are easily proven to be untrue. It's a strange time when a democrat uses right-wing talking points to belittle what was once a foundational pillar of the democratic base (some people would have seen the decline of the influence of the unions as dramatic foreshadowing of what was going to happen to the influence of black voters, but that would have required some sense of awareness about the nature of the DLC wing of the party). OK, let's begin.

"The decline in union membership is more traceable to unions' becoming the monster that they were born to fight AND a generation (or more) of narcissistic workers."

Nope. The decline in union membership in the late 50s through the late 60s was the result of the economic boom creating a middle class economy that employed an enormous, expanding number of non-union workers. Most of those were sustained by the high wages of the union workers.

The problem with this system of self sustaining, mutually reinforcing "redistribution of wealth" from those that produce goods to those that provide services is of course that the wealthiest Americans are proportionally less obscenely wealthy. The obvious fix for this problem was for American workers to agree to go back to the gilded age when workers had no rights and would work for starvation wages. The unions objected.

So the factories were closed and reopened in countries that provide such cheap and plentiful labor that they can produce goods, pack them into ships for an intercontinental trip across the Pacific ocean, then drive them across america to sell them at Wal-Mart, (where Hillary Clinton was on the board of directors), and still sell them for less then the the competing small businesses could afford, this left both the union and non-union workers out of work and left them with nothing but multinational corporations with their part-time, minimum wage, no benefit jobs.

With "right to work" laws the unions ARE dying. Meanwhile the labor department saw that a southern senator and governor were interfering with a VW plant in Tennessee where the company and labor were working together to form a works council. They did it by offering 300 million dollars in incentives to the company and warning the workers that jobs would be lost if they unionized. The labor department, whose whole purpose is to prevent that from ever happening, looked at what was happening and said, "wow, that sucks for you guys, to bad nobody can do anything about it.".

Again, the company, VW, had gone to the workers, and offered a workers council, BUT, representatives of the state and federal government interfered. They left a paper trail of proof and VW confirmed it to anyone who asked, that yep there were both bribes and threats, but the labor department of a democratic president couldn't be bothered to act.

To use your phrase from earlier, "fuck you".

Your claims about the unions are the opposite of correct.

They are based on heritage foundation and Cato institute propaganda. They have been peddling the idea that unions destroyed American manufacturing right along side the myth that social security and Medicare were clever schemes spread by communists to make minorities and old people lazy while at the same time bankrupting the country.
-------
It wasn't being called silly and unrealistic during the Clinton and Bush administrations, that caused the emotional reaction from progressive activists towards African-American activists. It was us, pointing out that president Obama was doing the same centrist, business first, bullshit that he promised he wouldn't do, the exact same things that we had been saying were wrong since the Hoover administration, but know, we aren't just silly and unrealistic, we're racists.

We weren't racists when we supported these exact same positions and policies in the forties or fifties.

In the forties and fifties we were communists,

in the sixties, we were communists and race traitors for supporting civil rights,

in the seventies and eighties we were communists and race traitors and deviants because we also supported women's rights and gay rights

But that was conservatives.

In the nineties, "democrats" started saying that we were fools. That sucked. But it wasn't personal. We knew it was still technically conservatives doing the talking.

Then in 2008 we became racists. We advocated the same policies. We made the exact same accusations. But now we're racists.

The frustration that lead to the emotional reaction to the BLM protesters is the result of a combination of factors, I don't doubt that some of it was outright, overt racists who call themselves progressive for purely economic policy reasons, and a good part of it was people who've been subconsciously waiting for an excuse to say something racist to satisfy some inner sickness, some were likely just trolls. But some of it was pent up frustration at being called racists, by people who were defending a president who broke every promise he made. Who got elected, then told us to shut up and sit down while he fucked us all over in exactly the same way that Bill Clinton did.

President Obama made Tim Geithner, one of the architects of the the crash, his Secretary of the Treasury.

That should be all the proof that's needed. There's mountains of evidence, but none with the same elegant poetry to it.

Oh, he made Eric Holder, a lawyer from Covington & Burling, a law and lobbying firm that works with, GE, bank of America, Morgan Stanley, Halliburton, and Fucking BLACKWATER, the mass murdering corporate army. Which was probably no big deal for Holder since he personally defended Chiquita International Brands from "one count of supporting a designated terrorist organization", for being in bed with a group responsible for the mass murder of civilians.

When we questioned having a partner at a law firm that lobbies on the behalf of military contractors who should be facing war crimes and fraud charges, as well as half of the to big to fail banks and wall street firms that the justice department will be investigating, we were again called racists.

Maybe Eric Holder's people tried really hard, but just couldn't find anybody who broke any laws. His lead investigator Lanny Breuer certainly would know his way around wall street, he worked for Covington & Burling defending wall street before he joined the justice department and failed completely to achieve any of his goals, but that's ok, after he left the justice department he went back to Covington & Burling for a 4 million dollar a year contract to defend wall street from the justice department, and now he'll have help, since former attorney general Holder has also rejoined the firm.

That's some pretty epic corruption occurring right out in the open that I'm a racist for noticing.

Then, in the middle of the only progressive event that ever gets any press, instead of talking about our issues, a group of people walk in, TO THE ONLY PROGRESSIVE EVENT THAT EVER GETS ANY NEWS ATTENTION AT ALL, and makes it all about their issue. An issue we support, that we've always supported, that we would have gladly discussed, and we watch our candidate booed off the stage.

That's why we were upset.

If it's a contest about who's issues are going to be heard, BLM will win. Because black voters are more influential in the party than progressives, because dead people on the street are hard to not talk about, and because the people who own Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush don't want them to talk about economic issues.

Also because they know that 12 percent of the population don't have any real power other than their vote every couple years and the good will or collective guilt of the 65 percent with most of the money and power.

If we're not together they WILL FUCK US BOTH. If we are together we can fuck them. That's not sentimental, "we're all in this together", bullshit.

That's just math.








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Response to spqr78 (Reply #292)

Wed Jul 29, 2015, 02:41 AM

343. Have fun in Canada. You're going to love the Prime Minister.

He's like Dubya's little brother.

You do have at least a quarter to a half million bucks, I hope? You can't just "emigrate" anymore. You have to have cash or special skills...and if the latter, you'd better not be too old. They don't want anyone who can't pull their own weight.

If you decide to head to Europe, do some homework first--the rise of the right wing is significant and scary in many of of those countries. They aren't friendly to people of color, people who worship differently, people who don't look like the predominant culture. That idea of European progressive paradises is just that--an idea. It's not reality and hasn't been for a long time.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #287)

Tue Jul 28, 2015, 11:02 AM

326. 100% correct as I lived it in my union:

The decline in union membership is more traceable to unions becoming the monster that they were born to fight AND a generation (or more) of narcissistic workers.

But I'm not going to get closer.



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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #287)

Tue Jul 28, 2015, 11:30 AM

328. You won't get further responses

Admin banned him yesterday!

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #328)

Tue Jul 28, 2015, 12:50 PM

330. Good job!

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #328)

Tue Jul 28, 2015, 01:32 PM

331. Thank Baby Jesus! Where are they coming from, or are these "return performances" if you know what..

I mean.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #331)

Tue Jul 28, 2015, 01:52 PM

332. No idea - but seriously

They need to stop.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #328)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:07 PM

349. Yes, I noticed and that's why I posted about not getting any closer...



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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #30)

Sun Jul 26, 2015, 04:29 PM

291. The less a person has the more risk adverse he or she is

The less a person has the more risk adverse he or she is:


Because "incrementalism" is not a bad word to the African-American community ... "progressives" tend towards "all or nothing", rhetoric and improbable solutions. I could give example after example of asking "How do you expect to move more than half of Congress to accomplish {this or that}?" and the solution always starts with "IF ONLY" ... that is not a plan, that is a wish.



Vegas doesn't make it money on the backs of poor people.


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Response to lostnfound (Reply #23)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:02 AM

42. It does resonate with AA people

just look at the fast food worker strikes all over the country:-



At the local level, there is a workaround. You simply have white people organise the white workplaces and black people organise the black workplaces. The Service Employees Union always makes sure that the public face of the Fight for 15 (in a city with predominantly black services workers) is always black. You can't do that with a president, because its only one person.

Why do AA people prefer centrists rather than progressives?


You're asking the wrong question. Its not just Black people. All across the country, white working class people line up to vote Republican against their own economic interests, because the Republican party is essentially a nativist, white party. It's their team.

The real marvel is that Black people actually bothered to vote for the Democratic party for so long even though it had hardly any Black people in it. My guess is that having basked in the glow of a Black president for eight years they will probably be less prepared to do so in future.

Its always easier to appeal to a person's race over their class. Race is more tangible, more definable, less immutable, more visceral, more atavistic, more permanent. The vast majority of people in America demonstrate a preference for the company of their own race, for example by marrying someone of the same skin colour.

One of the rare Socialist successes in America was Kshama Sawant's election in Seattle. She is Indian. I wonder whether this was the key to her success. Indian people don't spook white people, they're seen as a "safe" minority. On the other hand they're not white either, so that overcomes a lot of objections that would otherwise be raised by people of colour.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #42)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:06 PM

86. I'm sure you understand ...

 

The real marvel is that Black people actually bothered to vote for the Democratic party for so long even though it had hardly any Black people in it. My guess is that having basked in the glow of a Black president for eight years they will probably be less prepared to do so in future.


No party has addressed the particular needs of the Black community. 50+ years of the vote has taught us pragmatism ... Our voting Democratic is BECAUSE we live in a two party state and the alternative is infinitely worse ... we have learned to not vote so much for what one party or the other will do FOR us; but rather, what one party or the other will do TO us.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #86)

Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:32 AM

281. +1

Our voting Democratic is BECAUSE we live in a two party state and the alternative is infinitely worse ... we have learned to not vote so much for what one party or the other will do FOR us; but rather, what one party or the other will do TO us.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #42)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:22 PM

91. That's very interesting.

I agree with what you've said, it makes sense to me, but If you have a white progressive Democrat and a white centrist Democrat, why would the former get a higher percentage of white Democrats than of black Democrats? That isn't explained by race, is it, if both candidates are white.

I'm not asking why AA's wouldn't "recognize all that's been done for them" or that kind of crap, but I'm just asking, why would AA voters see progressive politicians in a MORE unfavorable light than centrist politicians, rather than the same as white voters?

But wait. I think I see what your saying. It could be that out of 100 white people there are 50 Republicans and 50 Democrats, including 10 progressives; and that the numbers would be exactly the same among 100 AA people, BUT the AA people don't vote Republican because the Republican Party is almost monolithically racist and white, so they end up going with the party that is more inclusive. That still leaves 10 progressives in either racial group, but among white Demcorats that's 10/50 =. 20%, but among black Democrats that's 10/100 = 10%. Which looks worse but is exactly the same.

Add to that the comments that 1StrongBlackMan made about AA people being more accepting of "incrementalism" or more pragmatic about what's possible, and it starts to make a lot more sense to me.

Thanks very much.

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #91)

Sun Jul 26, 2015, 09:41 AM

285. You've hit on part of it

In the United States, 80% of Jews vote for the Democratic Party, in the UK only 50% of Jews vote for labour, and in Australia it is reversed - 70% of Jews vote for the conservatives.

The reason why Jews feel comfortable voting for the UK Conservative party but not the republicans is because the Conservative party is a dour, stable "don't spook the horses" party whereas the U.S. Republican Party is a shrill, polemical, nativist (almost right wing populist) party. Essentially the dems are a Conservative party (by world standards), the Republican Party is further off to the right. This means that many members of minorities feel compelled to vote for the democrats even though they may be quite socially conservative (as many African Americans are) and would prefer other options - but they can't bring themselves to vote for the republicans - they're too extreme.

But there is a more fundamental reason, which I've mentioned before. Any mass political movement depends to some extent on "strategic essentialism" - that is, essentially, emphasising the similarities that unite a constituency and simultaneously downgrading or passing over any differences that might otherwise distinguish those constituents from each other. So From the pov of a movement like black lives matter, this means emphasising the common experience of racism that all black people endure. On the other hand, any movement, for example, that sought to point out the daylight between the experiences of a wealthy black person and a poor black person is probably not likely to be a welcome development.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_essentialism





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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #7)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:13 AM

27. Why? ...

 

Whats interesting is that Dean never encountered overt hostility due to the makeup of his support base, whereas Sanders currently does.


Why do you think that is?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #27)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:38 AM

33. Howard Dean wasnt running against Hillary?

 

With her as your opponent, anything is on the table as a possibility

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Response to 7962 (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:43 AM

36. I suspect that has little to do with why Dean didn't take that hit ...

 

and are you really suggesting that Bernie's issues in the Black community is a HRC invention or promoted by HRC?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #36)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:43 AM

50. I'm saying I put NOTHING past Hillary's "team". Look at '08;

 

remember what was said about Obama when that campaign was going on in South or North Carolina? And by Bill Clinton? "A few years ago, this guy would have been getting us coffee." Sure, Obama beat her. But here we are forgetting that was ever said? If that was said in the open, imagine what was said privately!
Imagine if a republican had said those words? We'd STILL be pointing at it!
It wouldnt surprise me at all if I found out that some staff members are quietly pushing a message that "Sanders isnt right for you" and just letting the internet do its thing.

What has Sanders ever done or not done that would make the black community be suspicious of him & not think he would work in their interest? Having fewer staff members than some think is acceptable is hardly a reason. Bush had several staff members who were black as well as Cabinet members. Its ACTIONS that matter.

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Response to 7962 (Reply #50)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:22 AM

70. Okay ...

 

What has Sanders ever done or not done that would make the black community be suspicious of him & not think he would work in their interest?


He has offered economics as THE solution to problems that are not based in economics ... and, then, when Black folks spoke out and said that economic justice will not address those matters that most closely touch our lives; rather than, engage the discussion, he continued down that path ... BUT worse, stood silent when his supporters attacked Black folks for doing so.

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Response to 7962 (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:10 PM

88. There also wasn't the social media platforms

That exist today.




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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #27)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:44 AM

51. We've had eight years of a Black president...

If you are a New Left activist that is focused on race, that creates complications. You can't scream at Obama to "say her name" or make him repeat your assertion that "Black Lives Matter", or say that he doesn't really care about Black people. It just doesn't work. He's Black. Obviously he believes that Black Lives Matter, because he is one.

Even so, BLM has tried to heckle Obama before. Obama didn't even look in their direction, he simply kept plugging along with his prepared speech. Nothing came of it, if anything BLM took some heat for it:-

http://thinkprogress.org/election/2015/03/07/3631178/black-lives-matter-protesters-interrupt-obama-selma

Obviously, its not a very satisfactory situation for an activist organisation when you can't meaningfully put pressure on the most senior and visible political official in America, particularly at a time when racism is steadily worsening and becoming an urgent problem. And eight years is a long time to cruel one's sword.

Consequently, even if Clinton is elected, there is a lot of pent-up anger that has so far bypassed the White House because Obama has been in charge, and which is going to find its way home. In the case of the recent BLM protest its already started (ironically, because both O'Malley and Sanders have less than a 10% chance of ever becoming president).

My guess is that Clinton would have copped flak had she turned up to Netroots, and I will happily eat my own liver if BLM don't somehow find the opportunity to sandbag her as well at some stage (although her security operation is pretty good). It would be amiss of them if they did not.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #51)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:15 AM

55. As I said in another OP, the bad cops LOVE this BLM stuff. Dividing helps them.

 

Here's my take on the whole thing.
When people see these "activists" storming into restaurants, interrupting speakers, blocking businesses, etc, many of them are instantly turned off by the whole process. Especially since most of the protesting is being done to people who have NOTHING to do with the issue. And then when simply saying "All lives matter" (hey, they DO!) actually gets you into TROUBLE, it starts to be ridiculous.
The problem is a BAD COP problem FIRST. Cops are abusing and killing people of ALL races. To try to just put the focus on black victims just makes a casual observer, which most people are, just think "Well, thats a shame but I'm white so I guess it'll never affect me". And they'll really BELIEVE that. Which is totally the opposite reaction you want. EVERYONE needs to see whats going on and put pressure on cities to change. White victims need to get the same national coverage as black ones. Hispanic victims. ALL victims. Because if we ALL realize that it COULD happen to us, then the cry for change gets a LOT louder.

An analogy: BAck when the medicalpot issue first started, the spokespeople were almost always a bunch of guys who looked like hippies. So a lot of folks would look at this and think, "thats just a bunch of potheads trying to pull something". When the face of the movement started to show the average man or woman explaining their situation, the polls started to change. And look where we are now. Perception is reality

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Response to 7962 (Reply #55)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:57 AM

62. The problem is that it takes a crisis to prompt white America into action

Cops can spend decades writing jaywalking tickets every time a Black kid steps off the sidewalk, and they do. But the media never turns up to witness the everyday acts of racism. The only time the problem gets acknowledged is when someone gets killed, people riot and there is serious social disorder.

Or in other words: it does affect you, because I'm right in your face telling you so, and I'm going to make some serious waves against your candidate unless my problems are acknowledged.

"All Lives matter" is a bit like "Men get raped too". Its a perfectly germane statement but it ignores the fact that women get raped a lot more.

I do acknowledge the thrust of what you're saying - the problem with the New Left is that it isn't very outcome driven (eg Occupy Wall Street), but tends to be process driven. So delivering pablum and platitudes and having safe spaces and voices and conversations etc is often used a substitute for having a real agenda.

But realistically, 77% of Americans are white and its hard to get social change without engaging at least some of them.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #62)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:35 AM

77. +1 ... Damn well stated. n/t

 

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #62)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 01:37 PM

100. I agree. Results matter. And this IS a crisis, its just a lot dont see it yet.

 

Thats why I said ALL these crimes need national exposure. Let the whites see that they're at risk too and more of them will start paying attention. But screaming it in one's face isnt likely to get more sympathy and action from them! My point is that the WHOLE population needs to understand that yes, it CAN happen to THEM too. Because it does. Bad cops are all over. Certainly a black person is more likely to be accosted by these cops, but getting in an uproar when someone says All lives matter is counter-productive, as you mention

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #62)

Tue Jul 28, 2015, 02:07 PM

333. That actually breaks down close to the beginning because the progressive candidate isn't mostly the

white favored candidate even if virtually all of their support is white because you start out with effectively a whole white party with some tokens that are usually among the most radical and then you have the "centrist" Democrats who also set out to appeal to big chunks of white people and while blacks may well be more conservative than consistently high levels of support for Democrats would make an outside observer might think it isn't some outreach campaign to blacks because most aren't "conservative" in the cut taxes, less regulation, cut social spending, defund the government, more wars, more surveillance, though I think there is a dangerously counterproductive "tough on crime" ideal that helps some ugly chickens to come home to roost in a vicious cycle BUT pro abortion as can be and pro gay? No, that is all also about appealing to whites as well.

Hell, even if leftwing populism is also built to appeal to whites it is unsurprising because that is what happens across the board and also not particularly bothersome as it is appealing to them to actually join a movement that isn't mostly about a net negative losing proposition with lots smiles, singing and clapping in a church, and when the governing starts being destructive nor worse unmitigated disaster of the delusionally racist with a similar overall policy agenda but pressing the very worst parts to appeal to racist while getting to be racist fuck while in an official capacity.

I think within the Democratic party though too much is about lip service and too little to the policies and outcomes. I also care less about demographic diversity of staff than consistent dreck that comes out the kitchen all that diversity and we get the same old shit getting a little worse all around all the time? All that is doing is deflecting from the lack of diversity of thought or more much of any at all other than political machinations to execute the same tired and failed game plan yet again.

I also get you aren't going to attract people who want to stick as close as possible to the establishment in their careers and maybe work the revolving door at some points if you are all about fighting it and come from a state with those kind of internal numbers to draw from and big percentages of black staff is going to be tough though going national should help though I think there some talent availability issues that are baked in, working for someone outside the mainstream on the left means potentially closing some doors on yourself and if you have a career of swimming upstream ahead most will tend to shy away.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #333)

Tue Jul 28, 2015, 10:38 PM

340. Yes, this is an important point

Career politicians are masters at saying different things to different demographics. Hillary Clinton changes her accent depending on where she goes, as does Obama. I personally cringed through most of his Cosby-esque "popeyes chicken speech" but apparently he got away with it.

Part of the appeal of Sanders is that he doesn't do that. He rocks up and delivers the same pitch in the same Brooklyn accent no matter where he goes. Its definitely authentic. What you see is what you get.

Part of the pushback from his supporters is that they can't believe that people would actually prefer a typical bullshit politician that tailors his speech to suit the audience and that consciously employs a carefully considered demographic assortment of staffers to persuade voters that he's on board with everyone and not a racist (or as its known in the business "add Black people/women and stir"

A lot of Arabs said that Clinton employs Huma Abedin as a staffer and is close to her, therefore she doesn't hate Arabs. My reaction is always: well whoopey-fucking do, it didn't stop her from supporting the Iraq war or threatening to annihilate Iran.

But I suspect that is something that is a lot easier for white/university-educated people to say - after all, there's always going to be white staffers on anyone's payroll, and to be honest I can see why, instinctively, Black people would be reassured to see Black people on someone's staff. After all, Black people have been taught distrust of white politicians through long, hard lessons.

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Response to 7962 (Reply #55)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:33 AM

75. false equivalency

 

on the pot matter and cops killing "all people". BS. You like many will use any excuse to diminish the fact that POC believe in and are fighting for the fact that #Black Lives Matter. You hate it when white people have to face the truth as sanders and o'malley did at NN. Who gives a damn if a bunch of privileged offendees turn off from #Black Lives Matter or POC in general. Hell, they were just looking for an excuse to let their racism shine anyway. In the 60's the same group of the then super privileged whites along with Cointelpro did the same thing. The modern day equivalent will be trying to infiltrate soon, I'm sure, but people really are aware of a lot of the tricks, these days......as we are aware of false equivalents and diminishing behavior and words distracting from...wait for it....#BLACK LIVES MATTER.

Perceive that!

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #51)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:31 AM

72. Before I respond ... Please define/describe "New Left Activist". Thanks.

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #72)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:56 PM

130. In this context

I am referring to Occupy Wall Street and the like - essentially leaderless social movements lacking formal membership or organisational structures and therefore unable to develop past the stage of staging protests, or developing an agenda more tangible than simply denouncing racism, homophobia, etc etc.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #51)


Response to Name removed (Reply #295)

Mon Jul 27, 2015, 09:32 PM

299. Unfortunately, yes...

Obama copped a lot of ratfucking (Jews won't vote for him, whites won't vote for him, Latinos won't vote for him) until he became the winning horse and then it largely vanished overnight.

You're probably correct that Clinton's frontrunner status will deter a lot of people from sandbagging her, but I'm not sure about BLM, they're young turks, they don't have an awful lot to lose.

However, if Clinton is sandbagged, she will have enough of the Black establishment onside to push back pretty hard. Expect lots of op-ed columns furiously denouncing the sandbagging of Clinton and saying what a fearless champion of the downtrodden she is.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #299)


Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:00 AM

8. This post makes me sad

How can any of us learn anything this way? What knowledge is gained by ONLY talking about how great a Democrat is? Dispassioned analysis is far more interesting and worthwhile to me

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Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:01 AM

9. This is a legit concern for any dem candidate

Aside from the obvious of just doing the right thing. No one going up against Hillary is going to win the nomination without the black vote and no dem in the GE is going to win without the black vote.
I think Bernie mishandled this at netroots and then his response has been hit and miss. He's not my 1st choice but he does have an important message and real life solutions. He's in a national campaign. He doesn't need slick professional handlers because he would not be genuine but let's face it, he's also in a bubble. He needs to hire more people to listen to about how to present his ideas to people who have never heard of him.

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Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:08 AM

10. well about you being blocked from the Sanders group

I disagree with it too, it was not concern trolling and I do not agree with everything that has been said but OtOH to suppress or censor such a thing donotes fear to me, and my attitude is bring it, not you but in general

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Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:09 AM

11. I am a POC & a host in the Sanders Group.

 

I know that supporters of Sanders are open to legitimate criticism especially on the whole with regards to BLM and issues affecting us minorities.

From what I could read, you linked to a post that was mostly about a joke, and you were asked to provide actual specifics.

I do not know if you got a chance before you were blocked or not. I was not contacted about the block and would consider unblocking.

Personally, my take on safe havens and candidate support groups is that criticism in moderation and rational ones should be addressable. Bit in reality, imagine if I came into this group and said, AA Democrats need some self-examination about this or that issue. Or imagine if I did the same in the Hillary Clinton group. What would happen? I would be blocked as surely as you were.

Why not bring this up in GD-P where safe haven rules specifically don't apply?

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Response to TM99 (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:22 AM

16. It should bloody well be able to be brought up in the Sanders group.

Sounds like at least one host is a bit too "protective" of the group.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #16)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:35 AM

19. I think you are missing my point.

 

It was borderline 'concern trolling' in my opinion. It would not have flown in any other candidate safe haven if it had been about that candidate whether it held elements of truth or not.

Had I been around, I would have locked it and said to repost in GD-P. Forums are for varying viewpoints and disagreements. Safe havens are not. I would not have blocked the OP however.

Bluntly, I see that I have veered into a 'meta' discussion about this. It is not appropriate for the AA safe haven particularly when it has to do with the Sanders Group. So I will not say anything more on the subject.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #19)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:41 AM

21. And my point is that I want the Sanders group to be BETTER than 'anoy other candidate safe haven'.

I saw signs early on that at least some of the hosts didn't want to merely make it a Sanders-centric version of the 'other' candidate/office holder groups, and I was glad about that that. ALL of our politicians need to be criticized, ALL of them need to be pushed any time they're not already doing what needs done. And if you honestly believe Sanders is a good guy, there's no reason not to try and make him better if he's missed something.

(But I'll agree with your point about meta, and this will be MY last comment on moderating that group in this group as well.)

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #21)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:39 PM

127. Yep.

"And if you honestly believe Sanders is a good guy, there's no reason not to try and make him better if he's missed something."

Exactly. I don't get the defensiveness. Well, yeah, I guess it is kind of human nature, but I don't get what appears to be the extent of it. If you don't listen, how are you going to learn?

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #21)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:51 PM

156. What I see in the O'Malley Group

The "talking points" - I don't think I'm the only one gearing up to volunteer in NH or Iowa. I'm also more interested in overcoming objections face to face or on the phone.


If a challenge arises in the group - we know his history, record, and platform. And the hosts?

Not a single person on block.

My happy place at DU is the O'M group because I see people that just want to help other people - who know our country is good - but we could be amazing with a little change to how we do and approach things.

I'm not a "Stan" - his demeanor and approach doesn't bring that - it brings thoughtfulness.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:39 AM

34. Yeah right ...

 

know that supporters of Sanders are open to legitimate criticism especially on the whole with regards to BLM and issues affecting us minorities.


That is as humorous as it is insulting.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #34)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:02 AM

43. I disagree.

 

According to polls here, more DU'er support Sanders for president than any other candidate.

Are you seriously attempting to argue that most of them are not open to issues affecting BLM and minorities? Now that is humorous and insulting.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #43)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:13 AM

66. We are talking about a specific sub-set of DU Bernie supporters ...

 

the hosts of the Bernie Group, i.e., the only ones with the ability to block posters from the group. And you (the hosts) have shown openness on issues affecting BLM and minorities; but, only to the extent that Bernie is above reproach ... to question that is to be blocked.

But that is fine ... until you pretend to be what you are not.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #66)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:34 AM

76. That is simply not a fair characterization.

 

You pretend like we are the only safe haven that does not accept concern trolling, excessive criticisms and negativity directed at Group members, and violations of a safe haven TOS.

These types of threads can and are done in GD-P, and that is where they belong.

I think Clinton has a far worse history on racial issues that Sanders. If I want to start a thread to discuss that, how far do you think it would go in the Clinton Group? Now, if I do it in GD-P, you and I can argue to our heart's content.

You and a few others are holding the Sanders Group, its members, and its hosts to a very strict set of rubrics that you certainly don't require of other groups.

Now, I wonder why the fuck that is?

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Response to TM99 (Reply #76)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:18 PM

90. Do you NOT see your response as a deflection? ...

 

You responded to a Bernie Supporter talking about his being blocked from the Bernie Group and said:

know that supporters of Sanders are open to legitimate criticism especially on the whole with regards to BLM and issues affecting us minorities.


When challenged you talk about "But they do it too ... and worse! ..."

Then, you do exactly what, general, starts the post that gets a person blocked:

Now, I wonder why the fuck that is?


So no ... the hosts of the Bernie Group are NOT open to anything, but Bernie accolades ... irrespective of what other groups do or don't do.

Own it and it is fine; deny it, and you reinforce what is evident.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #90)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:30 PM

94. Word salad that is all.

 

His post was not a legitimate criticism. It was concern trolling and it linked to posts in other groups. It might as well have been meta as it was discussing an abstraction called 'the Sanders supporters who don't see exactly what I see'.

Safe havens are safe havens. Get it? If not, that is yours not my problem.

You are holding this group, its members and its hosts to a standard that is not held to elsewhere.

I do question that. I do wonder why the fuck that is.

But instead of owning it and saying why, you double down on me. Now who is the one deflecting?

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Response to TM99 (Reply #94)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 01:20 PM

98. Okay ... Word salad ... LOL ...

 

Safe havens are safe havens. Get it? If not, that is yours not my problem.


Oh I completely understand that ... but don't come with this:

know that supporters of Sanders are open to legitimate criticism especially on the whole with regards to BLM and issues affecting us minorities.


And then, defend the BS being called with, "Safe havens are safe havens" and "Other groups do it."

You are holding this group, its members and its hosts to a standard that is not held to elsewhere.

I do question that. I do wonder why the fuck that is.


Self-reflection is not big among your life skill set, is it?

I'm sure you do wonder what is going on ... It's because you refuse to attempt to understand what other people are saying, i.e. a poster talks about being blocked ... you say the group is open ... I said the Blocking is evidence that the group's host are NOT open ... you say, "Safe havens are safe havens" and "Other groups do it" (what the does that have to do with what YOU, a HOST, are doing?) ... Then, you play the victim.

But I'm done. You have gotten enough of my time and attention ... you will never "understand."

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #98)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 01:26 PM

99. I understand just fine.

 

You play word games. If it does not come out the way you want, then you just try to throw it back on the other person.

I have observed and know this tactic well.

Being open to legitimate criticism does not necessitate being open to concern trolling, criticism of supporters without backing evidence, and violating the TOS of a safe haven.

And when you know that this is the case but you want desperately for it to be otherwise, you insult. I put the other insulting person in this thread on Ignore. I actually like reading your posts so I won't.

But yes, you are quite right, we are done here. You have a real nice day!

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #98)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:48 PM

128. Group Host - I've watched this thread pretty much all day




*****Group Host *******

What has been done on this thread would not have been allowed in the Bernie Sanders Group.

I've read through that Group (had to go to trash to pull it up) and noted the very large amount of people on block.

I want you to keep your cool - because you ARE cool - and rest assured . . . Their regular members are looking for a reason to alert on you - in this group.

I'll pop on / off tonight to watch the thread - but I wanted to let you know your patience is greatly appreciated and I'm watching them.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #128)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:54 PM

129. No need to watch this thread ...

 

with respect to me ... I'm done with that poster. You know ... Pigs ... Wrestling ... Mud ... Orgasms ...

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #129)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:58 PM

131. Knock it off!



I'm so pissed about a hide Number23 got right now - that I'm fixing to block every single member that's posted here, is a member of the b.s. group, and is on the thread she got a hide on.

It was one of them and I'm kicking them out of the sandbox.


Because my dad used to sing brattanellaaaaaaaaaa to me and I can so there.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #131)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:11 PM

139. She got a hide? Let me guess ...

 

she typed the term "Bernie" and didn't precede it with "all hail to"?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #139)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:19 PM

146. Yep

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #129)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:32 PM

177. "Pigs ... Wrestling ... Mud ... Orgasms ..."

Ummmm... is this some saying that's only localized in Arizona because I ain't EVER heard an expression about pigs and orgasms.

You have something you need to tell us, 1SBM???

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Response to Number23 (Reply #177)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:29 PM

200. It's what happens when the pig is having way to much fun ...

 

it's best to avoid that.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #128)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:02 PM

133. I thought when one trashed a Group ...

 

1) It prevented one from seeing OPs originating in that Group;

2) It stayed trashed until one un-trashed it.

I trashed the Bernie Group after I was blocked ... not because I didn't care to read what was in it, or any particular need to post anything there; but rather, because I don't general look to see where a post in posted before responding ... so I found myself typing responses but not being able to post them. It got frustrating.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #133)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:07 PM

137. No go to your account

You will see trashed groups.

Click on it - it's all there.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #137)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:36 PM

151. It says the Group is trashed ...

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #151)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:52 PM

157. Click on the group name

It wont unblock it - but it will bring up the page.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #157)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:33 AM

261. IT WORKED ... IT WORKED! n/t

 

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Response to TM99 (Reply #94)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 01:40 PM

101. Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT ALONE

On Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:23 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Word salad that is all.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=19545

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Ok, so it takes guts to come into a "safe haven" group to give a lecture about such groups and insult the members of this particular group in the process.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:37 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Meh....
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Rude.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It seems a discussion was on going... The safe haven groups are monitored by those hosting the safe haven groups. If those hosts want to remove the post, they can. This post doesn't rise to the "alert" system. Allow the hosts to take care of the matter.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

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Response to Divernan (Reply #101)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:04 PM

136. Hey it's obvious

A poster from the Bernie Sanders group who is bi-racial like me doesn't get blocked from this group for telling someone they are being a jerk.

And you can get a hide for this in GD Primaries-

Number23 This message was hidden by Jury decision. Hide
110. It's obvious that you think Bernie turns pee into wine and can breathe water. I am interested in

hearing what he has to say and discussing this with people without you chasing everyone around.

THIS thread was about Bernie Sanders, not Hillary.
A Jury voted 4-3 to hide this post on Tue Jul 7, 2015, 10:27 PM. Reason: This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.



But I'm going to pile on - Number23 was right.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #136)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:23 PM

161. Link to the hide ...

 

I want to see what she was responding to.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #166)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:22 PM

199. Yeah ... That was B.S. n/t

 

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #166)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 08:55 AM

259. Oh good grief.

You don't win friends and influence people by telling them "so there," which was about the size of that post. A sarcasm tag, no less. What on earth do they think they are doing to help their candidate? (Well, he's still my candidate, but I changed my avatar and am thinking about trashing the Bernie group - I virtually never look at it anyway.)

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #136)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:40 PM

167. Some of the stuff I've seen lately is just unbelievable...

This hide took the cake.

On the bright side, you can still rec the thread, AND hit the alert button and tell the admins what a lousy hide you think it was.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #76)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:28 PM

176. Here's a guess... it may be because NO OTHER GROUP ON DU is as hostile to black Americans now than

the BS supporters are right now, though there have been some issues with others in the past.

You guys scream and complain that you are being "unfairly judged" and "why don't we go after Hillary supporters the way that we do Sanders supporters?"

Where are the posts from O'Mally supporters calling #BLM "thugs?"
Where are the posts from Hillary supporters calling black people concerned with our issues "Koch funded non-progressives?"
Where are the posts from hell, even Jim Webb supporters that think that what he did 30-50 years ago is INFINITELY more important that the polices and processes he wants to implement now and alluding that anyone that thinks otherwise is "ungrateful for all the wonderful things their candidate has done for you"??

You guys don't want to be judged, then stop judging every damn body else. And it would be one thing if just ONE of your judgments were intelligent, thoughtful, based on history or even close to correct.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #176)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:35 PM

178. I don't see it among my fellow O'Malley supporters

Nothing but empathy. And well - positive intent re: BLM. I think the pride in his inclusiveness online nd supporters I know in real life shines through. And he admits when he screws up. You don't admit a screw up - you can't fix it.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #178)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:41 PM

180. O'malley screwed up at Netroots too. The only difference is that his SUPPORTERS were not out on the

Internet or at the event chastising and screaming at people of color "Don't YOu KNow ALL he's Done FOr You PEopLe!!!11one"

There was an article from a black, female attendee at Netroots who said that by the time everything was said and done she didn't feel safe at the event. A BLACK WOMAN didn't feel safe at the progressive Netroots Nation. And who did she say was the cause of her lack of safety??

You guessed it. Sanders supporters. These people just need to STOP. Just fucking STOP.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #180)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:44 PM

181. !!!!!!!! Yes, just stop!!!!!!

 



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Response to bravenak (Reply #181)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:56 PM

189. Hey girl... how many hides you up to now?

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Response to Number23 (Reply #189)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:17 PM

195. Same three. Just waiting.

 



I know more is coming.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #180)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:49 PM

183. More important than us?

He sat down with TWIB and Goldie. He had a conversation immediately after it happened.

When the person you support shows grace under fire - it shows how they want their supporters to act.

I will look for that woman's statements. Because that is NOT good. Sanders is so kind natured and down to earth - that's not who that man is. It's just not.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #183)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:55 PM

188. Bravenak posted it in another OP. It is well worth the read

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Response to Number23 (Reply #188)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:42 PM

204. I LOVED the 'big finish' of that piece!!!

After the protest, random people walked up to me to ask what I thought. When I told them I was disappointed in the candidates’ responses, they would tell me that Bernie marched with Martin Luther King. When I told them that wasn’t relevant, they would tell me that he marched with Farrakhan. When I said that wasn’t enough, they would tell me he wanted free college. As the conversations would go on, their voices would get louder, their fingers would start pointing, and I would get frustrated, end the conversation, and walk away. I tried to engage with many people, until one guy cornered me at the Netroots Nation after-party, put his hands on my shoulders, and told me that the protestors had no class and that Bernie Sanders deserves our respect for 50 years of fighting for civil rights. I stopped engaging at that point. I no longer felt safe in a progressive space.

I could not believe that I was defending the humanity of protestors who dared to speak up in a room full of progressives. Bayard Rustin says that, “We need, in every community, a group of angelic troublemakers.” Progressives should know that each one of our gains came because someone stood up and demanded it. We don’t assume people are on our side; we ask. We hold our allies accountable. We don’t ask for permission to protest. We know that direct action is never polite. We don’t wait until it is convenient. We are activists; we comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

I will forever be proud to witness the day that Black Women shifted the conversation in a presidential election. I am proud that three presidential candidates have acknowledged that Black Lives Matter. Maybe we can finally have a conversation about structural racism in this country. Maybe we can finally make systemic change.

Maybe.


http://www.eclectablog.com/2015/07/guest-post-a-perspective-of-the-netroots-nation-blacklivesmatter-protest-from-a-person-of-color.html


What I don't get is that the "direct action" of OWS, that never really asked for anything, specifically, gets cheers from the same people who don't like this direct action, that is asking for accountability from ostensible progressive candidates. It's ok for OWS to not be "polite," but this group doesn't get the same leeway? Hmmmmmm.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #176)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:10 PM

212. You do realize that on DU

 

there are more Sanders supporters than any other candidate. The likelihood of there being more bad apples (and I completely agree with you about all of your examples) is greater and more apparent because of that. I am not happy with supporters who have acted that way and when able I try to communicate a very different perspective.

But the last thing I will say on this is that this internecine war is going to be very bad for progressives as a whole. Both sides are becoming entrenched and refusing to communicate. Both have now gotten defensive. And the one candidate that benefits from this the most is by far the worst choice for any minority community. THIS is why I say that most Americans are low information, ignorant voters that do often vote against their best self interest.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #212)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:36 PM

216. So that's your answer? The reason more stupidity, more callousness and more RACISM has come

from the Sanders supporters over any other group on DU right now is because there are "more of you here?" And the only admonition you have for YOUR friends and their absolutely revolting behavior here and all over the entire goddamned Internet is more Hillary bashing? You're okay with this???

We are so done here. Please recognize we not only have nothing further to say here, we don't have anything to say to each other pretty much anywhere now.

I am now blocking you from the AA forum.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #216)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:27 AM

227. "I am now blocking you from the AA forum."



Been reading through this thread, and I can't thank you enough.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #227)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:35 AM

229. Edit

Last edited Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:39 AM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Number23 (Reply #229)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:40 AM

235. Oooooooh, makes me wonder!

Time for a musical interlude, I guess...



Never was a particular fan of these guys but I like this music...it has that lyric in there!

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Response to MADem (Reply #235)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 06:31 PM

274. Well, I edited. I din't want it to look like I was talking about somebody that couldn't talk back

And besides, anyone can read our exchange and see what's up and what we're dealing with.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #274)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 06:37 PM

275. Yeah, we're just hanging around listening to some old "top forty" music here!

Nothing to see!

Course, nowadays, you cannot be too careful! All we want is a little mutual respect...it seems like that's too much to ask...

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #227)

Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:04 PM

307. Perfect, Tarheel! Mahalo 23!





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Response to Number23 (Reply #216)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:48 AM

231. Thank you.

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #66)

Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:09 PM

308. Yeah, why they pretend?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #34)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:15 PM

159. "know that supporters of Sanders are open to legitimate criticism especially on the whole with

regards to BLM and issues affecting us minorities."

HA! I have Never seen one instance of that from that on the whole. Yeah, sure there are some compassionate Sanders' supporters who are speaking out for #BlackLivesMatter.. but they've been getting shut down by the others who support him. It's driven at least one former supporter to not supporting him.. the last I heard.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:37 PM

152. Why not bring this up in GD-P where safe haven rules specifically don't apply?

Because then someone alerts on it for being "disruptive META" because there will be no critiques of some groups--not even corrections of fact.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:47 PM

169. If you were a black person who said that black people need some self-examination, not ONE person

in this group would have a problem if you said that here. NOT ONE.

But if you are a black person that for some reason doesn't feel comfortable coming into the black forum and only talks about black people needing self-reflection and other issues of importance or pertaining to the AA community in the Bernie Sanders group or some other sections of this web site that most black posters here wouldn't go into with their friends' fingers, then yeah we'd have a problem with that.

And I think I speak quite honestly, when I say that I think that's the problem that most of us have with you and a few others here.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #169)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:48 PM

182. That is my problem with him. Certainly. Only comes back here to chastise us but won't tell his

 

buddies to stfu for us. Never once seen certain folks defend another fellow black duer from racism. Never have anything to say to them about this mass trolling of black folks. Just seems to think he is MORE ENLIGHTENED than us, and that is amazing to me. And he has ME on ignore. My black ass.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #169)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:50 PM

185. Btw: I left blocking him to you. I figured you would do it.

 

But if not, that's fine I'll do it later if I see his posts still here in our group when I get home. Can't warn him since he has me on ignore so, no warning needed. I do not want him here.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #185)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:00 PM

190. I've asked him not to return here. Hopefully that will be enough.

Can't warn him since he has me on ignore so, no warning needed.



If you are so incensed by what black people have to say, then WHY COME IN THE FUCKING AA FORUM???!!

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Response to Number23 (Reply #190)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:08 PM

192. I'm around this weekend

I'll keep an eye out.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #190)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:15 PM

194. I'm just gonna do it to make sure he does not come in here to chastise black folks.

 

He is doing it for his friends.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #194)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:19 PM

197. Well, it's pretty clear who he is now. So that makes it pretty clear who his friends are too.

I don't see why he'd come back or feel welcome. Hopefully the request to go and stay gone will be enough.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #197)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:20 PM

198. I hope so too. He ought to have shame.

 

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Response to Number23 (Reply #169)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:01 PM

209. Respectful, I did make that point here and here alone.

 

I have not once said that in the Sanders group.

In fact, as POC myself, I have applauded other posts on community issues in the Sanders Group.

I have received mixed messages on this from the blacks here and their particular white allies. And bluntly no I do not feel comfortable with that. There have been times in my life that I was not 'black' enough in certain communities nor 'white enough in others. So be it.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #209)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:08 PM

210. I don't think so

We have all seen your spittle flecked "FUCK ANYBODY THAT SAYS THAT SANDERS DOESN'T HAVE BLACK SUPPORT!!1one" nonsense around this web site. If only you'd spent half as much time engaging posters of color instead of putting yourself up to a certain crowd here as the Anti Whatever you think the rest of us are and literally calling us "low information" dumbasses who vote against our own interests as you did upthread, you wouldn't be viewed as you are in this forum.

That's all on you. You need to own that. You've obviously gotten quite the following here with your antics. Perhaps it's best if you stick with them.

There have been times in my life that I was not 'black' enough in certain communities nor 'white enough in others. So be it.

Well, that's your choice. I know who I am and nothing anyone could say could change that.

Last time I will request for you not to return to this forum.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:28 PM

175. Is it possible

for you to have a virtual meeting with the other hosts to address the issue of over-zealous blocks, and consider unblocking them?

I think, if we want to work to elect Bernie, we have to be inclusive. I also agree with Erich Bloodaxe BSN, that the Bernie group ought to be BETTER, which to me means more inclusive and open to discussing campaign weaknesses in the context of addressing them, than other safe havens.

We're saying that Bernie listens; we ought to, as well.

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Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:24 AM

17. As a Bernie supporter, I sympathize with you.

I have been banned from both the Hillary but most surprisingly for one who campaigned tirelessly for his election and re-election, from the Obama group.

Don't take it personally. It reflects more negatively on the people who are excluding you than on you. I have no say in the Bernie group.

I think Bernie is very aware of his lack of acceptance in the Black community, wants very much to support Black issues and be recognized as a friend of the Black community and that in the end, Black voters will join the Bernie movement in much greater numbers than we see today.

Because essentially, Bernie is very much on the side of African-Americans and understands African-American issues.

How could a Jewish kid born in 1940 to parents who immigrated from Europe, a child who was raised on the history of the Holocaust, who knew people who suffered from that racist episode in German history, perhaps the worst racism known in modern times, racism that resulted in the deaths of millions, not identify with the problems that African-Americans face in America today especially with police violence and repression?

Impossible.

Bernie is on the side of African-Americans and that will become obvious as the campaign progresses. Don't worry about this. It is a problem of communication.

Because Bernie was not a big national star prior to becoming a candidate, his stances, his history are not well known. Even now, the press pretty much ignores him. With the big crowds Bernie is drawing, the press will not be able to ignore him or his history, especially his history of defending the rights of African-Americans for long. People know a lot about the Clintons. That's because they have had a lot of media attention.

I was an Elizabeth Warren fan and didn't know much about Bernie until a few months ago. I am more and more positively impressed with him and his record. I also had no idea that he is as strong a supporter of African-American interests as he is until this past week.

Bernie will be fine. I hope that you are again permitted to post in the Bernie group. People are nervous I think. I don't like the fact that groups can exclude people from posting. It sort of defeats the purpose of DU. After all, there are other websites for those who wish to communicate without any opposition. Pretty boring places they must be.

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Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:29 AM

18. I'm Sorry

I understand the excitement for Senator Sanders. Frankly I agree with him more than I agree with Secretary Clinton. HOWEVER, as we saw in 2004, and in some ways 2000 when Democrats do not get behind the BEST candidate for the presidency we will lose. I wish Sanders/Warren was a ticket I really do, but when the Republicans get through their clown show of a nomination process and eventually nominate Bush/Walker or Rubio do we all think that Sanders can win a general election against them. We can talk about polls for 1,000 hours, only one number is important in presidential politics: 270. I'm not sure Sanders can get to 270. I believe Clinton can.

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Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:37 AM

20. You aren't the only banned Sanders support

randys1 is a strong supporter and was banned.

I'm a member of the O'Malley Group - I just checked the Sanders group.

We have NO members blocked there -

Sanders Group has dozens.

Now I'm going to call out sheshe here - she shouldn't be posting there. From watching her political point of view - that's not her candidate. It's just not. Love her! But her passion for what she is FOR if you aren't also FOR it could be overwhelming - and to me that's a good thing. But people are different and respond in different ways to challenges in their thinking.

Me - I have the group blocked - there's no need for me to be back there so I have a full trash so I don't see the threads - I don't want to intrude etc. etc.

What is disturbing is you ARE a supporter - and I would think that from a GOTV p.o.v. there should be every opportunity to explore the candidate and strategize as a cohesive group on canvassing and calling efforts. Each of us in the Primary and in the G.E. will have to overcome objections and if you have ZERO idea about the objections you will face - you are dead in the water at someone's front door.

You know - I did a post in the O'Malley group about black folks (friends and family) who are supporting O'Malley to tap down the 'Hillary has that vote in the bag' voices. At no time did the group hosts block me for discussing a demographic that is need to win the primary.

And in reading what you've posted here - it appears you just wanted to have a discussion.

If Bernie Sanders is the candidate elected to run on the Democratic ticket - we are going to be struggling to find ways to overcome objections a few months before the election.

Not good - we should know BEFORE the convention what we need to say to generate votes.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:39 AM

35. just sent another

 

email about the horrendous behavior of the openly racist people in the bernie sanders group here and how they are accepted by that group. I am mentioning the site by name and particular forum and how many people are openly here and lurking here. Bravenak's hides was the straw that broke the camels back.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #35)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:46 AM

37. Good for you!

I know you are getting into the campaign at the canvassing/gotv level. I think to myself - when I see something incendiary about O'Malley -

If he read it or it was said to him - what would he do? Say? Write in response.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #37)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:20 AM

47. yep exactly

 

I am telling people that our options are coming down to the choices we have always has as AA voters. O'Malley so far is the quiet, dark horse with possibilities. He at least knows where he has been(bernie also, but that's all he has), admitted his mistakes and wants to forge a coalition anew. With enough exposure we can make this horse race a three way threat. I am sending you PM

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:37 PM

179. I come across Sanders supporters EVERY DAY that won't post in the Sanders group

They may not be blocked from posting there, but they have as much interest as going there as you or I do.

And that to me, says everything that needs to be said about that forum, its members and especially its hosts.

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Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:18 AM

28. I am trying to connect

 

to the national, only utube, instagram twitter is available. But I am going to start sending daily emails, if possible about the behavior of sanders supporters, here especially. I promise. I'm sick of these privileged people trying to control opinion, especially AA opinion. They are banning an inordinate amount of AA posters, I know what's new there, but I am not going to let this stand. At the bernie meeting Sunday, I will, not angrily, because you know that scares the privileged, but forcefully let these people know that a problem is continually occurring nationally with bernie supporter/groups being openly racist and selective in their marginalizing of POC. I have not ever felt truly welcomed by this group, with me usually being the only hersey kiss in the group. Couple of people from India/Pakistan, but they have always been accepted before an AA, by the privileged group. period

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #28)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:05 PM

191. heaven, let me know if anything comes from this. I am genuinely interested

At the bernie meeting Sunday, I will, not angrily, because you know that scares the privileged, but forcefully let these people know that a problem is continually occurring nationally with bernie supporter/groups being openly racist and selective in their marginalizing of POC.

I honestly have faith that his campaign has more decency and more sense and will try to address this.

It's getting to the point that there needs to be an intervention like when John McCain had to do something about the number of his supporters calling Obama a socialist, America hating Muslim during their battle in 2008. Remember when that woman called Obama an "Arab" (like it was the worst thing in the world) to McCain??? He shut her down.

Bernie may need to do the same for his supporters.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #191)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 11:06 AM

266. I will and nothing yet

 

no response, but I haven't checked email today as of yet.

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Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:52 AM

40. I am white and I support Bernie Sanders about 95%. I also some problems when....

I look at footage of the large and enthusiastic crowds of Bernie supporters and literally not see one person of color in those crowds.

It doesn't mean anything past me (nor should it) that I believe Bernie Sanders has a good honest record of civil rights support. Like Bravniac pointed has pointed out out in other threads - its incredibly arrogant and insensitive for an earnest little Sandernista to lecture her or any person of color about the history of civil rights and why and how Bernie is/was so important to it.

I agree with you. The problems with Bernie's inability lay with Bernie not the supposed lack of knowledge of people of color over Bernie's record. Bernie Sanders isn't connecting with them and Bernie needs to make the effort to make himself known to everyone.

I think the Balkinazation of DU is not what having groups was supposed to do. But it certainly does seem to be a side effect. It angers me that we will cut people out who want an honest conversation. In this case it sounds like a moderator assumes a African American is incapable of supporting or discussing Bernie Sanders. And once more I am embarrassed by the way "my people" treat others, something that happens with horrible regularity these days.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #40)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:05 AM

44. It is really hard to take people seriously

 

when they post a lie like this.


I look at footage of the large and enthusiastic crowds of Bernie supporters and literally not see one person of color in those crowds.


Look again. I was at the nearly 12,000 person speech in Phoenix, and it was an incredibly diverse crowd. And events in other areas that have more diversity in their local population show the same thing.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #44)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:21 AM

48. You were there and I watched the tapes and my wife and I were and are surprised how few...

African Americans are in the audience or standing behind Bernie on the dais. And I am not the only one who's noticed this.

Shame on you for the insult.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #48)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:30 AM

49. Shame on me?

 

Look again. Seriously. The man who let us know that Sanders was running late was AA. There were more on the dais. There were even more in the crowd. Given our population numbers in Phoenix, that was an excellent turn out.

But you know what really insults me? This constant focus on optics and made up shit like you are trying to push here while acting all wounded that someone would call out your lies.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #49)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:33 AM

74. The insult is where you tell me I told you a lie.

As a Bernie Sanders supporter myself Ive seen and its been noted by many that there are very, very few African Americans in Bernie's audience and it is Bernie's problem regardless of whose "fault" that he seems to be having severe problems engaging African Americans, which has actually been complicated by Bernie Sander's supporters preaching to African Americans about how they don't know the history of the civil rights movement.

Its not a lie and everybody but the self righteous know it.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #74)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:38 AM

78. See this is the problem, so stop acting all wounded.

 

Your post stated -

I look at footage of the large and enthusiastic crowds of Bernie supporters and literally not see one person of color in those crowds.


Literally, not one person of color. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. Yes, that is a lie.

Now it is that there are 'very, very few African American's in Bernie's audience'.

So which is it? None or few?

The only one being self-righteous is you. I called you on a factually incorrect statement. You are using that made up fact to make a point. So yes, it is exactly that, a lie.

So are you an African American?

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Response to TM99 (Reply #78)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:45 AM

79. Bernie Sanders a Virtual Unknown Among Black Voters

You're absolutely right: its all me.

Bernie Sanders a Virtual Unknown Among Black Voters

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/politics/bernie-sanders-lags-hillary-clinton-in-introducing-himself-to-black-voters.html?_r=0

By PATRICK HEALY and JONATHAN MARTINJUNE 24, 2015



Blacks, a crucial constituency in Democratic presidential races, have been absent from Senator Bernie
Sanders’s campaign events. Credit Win McNamee/Getty Images


Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont is climbing in the polls in Iowa and New Hampshire, and he has drawn thousands of people to rallies for his presidential campaign recently in Denver and Minneapolis. But the shooting last week in Charleston, S.C., has highlighted a daunting obstacle he faces in the Democratic primary contest: Black voters have shown little interest in him.

Even his own campaign advisers acknowledge that Mr. Sanders is virtually unknown to many African-Americans, an enormously important Democratic constituency.

Though he led sit-ins as a civil rights activist in the 1960s, helped the Rev. Jesse L. Jackson Sr. pull off a surprising campaign victory in Vermont in 1988, and espouses liberal policy ideas broadly popular with many Democrats, Mr. Sanders has had little direct experience with black voters as a politician in a state that is 95 percent white. And they have been largely absent from his campaign events so far.



Mr. Sanders, 73, had planned to start introducing himself to larger numbers of African-Americans last Sunday at a large gathering in Charleston, but he quickly postponed the event after the church killings. The massacre also revived debate over a highly charged issue on which Mr. Sanders has a mixed record: gun control.


Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont said on the Senate floor on Tuesday that the country has a long way to go in terms of civil rights, and he mentioned his own experiences protesting segregation. By YouTube/Bernie Sanders on Publish Date June 24, 2015. Photo by David Becker/Associated Press. Watch in Times Video »

Hillary Rodham Clinton is working assiduously to cement her support among black voters. In an NBC/Wall Street Journal poll this week, 95 percent of nonwhite Democratic voters said they could see themselves supporting Mrs. Clinton for the nomination in the primary. Only about one-quarter of respondents said they could see themselves voting for Mr. Sanders.

And Mrs. Clinton is hardly sitting still: She has spoken out assertively on race relations and gun control over the past week, and she visited a black church on Tuesday near Ferguson, Mo., where the killing of an unarmed black man by a white police officer in August ignited protests.

Mr. Sanders has lamented “the ugly stain of racism that still taints our nation,” but he has yet to take the subject on in a forceful way.

Given the makeup of the Democratic primary electorate, Mr. Sanders’s capacity to win support among blacks represents a test of his relevance: It will help determine whether he can drain many votes from Mrs. Clinton or is bound to be merely a nuisance candidate with a following among the most ideologically driven liberal whites.

Mr. Sanders’s advisers concede that Mrs. Clinton is more familiar and popular among black Democrats, but they say his background and views will allow him to speak credibly to African-Americans in places like Charleston, Ferguson and elsewhere. His struggle, they say, is to introduce himself swiftly and on a broad scale so his remarks resonate and have an effect.
Continue reading the main story
What Bernie Sanders Would Need to Do to Win

“We’re reaching out, but it’s no secret that Bernie represents a state that is heavily Caucasian, and his decades of work on issues of importance to African-Americans aren’t known amid the national conversation on race that is underway,” said Jeff Weaver, Mr. Sanders’s campaign manager. “I don’t think it’s presumptuous of him to speak out on these issues. And his message — the need for more good-paying jobs, and opening up higher education regardless of wealth and family background — will have strong appeal with African-Americans and many other voters.”

The challenge facing Mr. Sanders as a Ben & Jerry’s candidate seeking the nomination of President Obama’s party was on vivid display last month in Burlington, Vt., at his first campaign rally.

Nearly all the speakers who preceded him — including the two ice cream entrepreneurs — were white, as were nearly all the supporters, many of them in tie-dyed clothes, who packed a park on the shores of Lake Champlain. His jeremiads about campaign-finance overhaul and climate change inspired cheers and ovations. But he made no mention of problems of deep concern to many African-Americans, like policing, gun control, racial inequities or the high numbers of black men in prison.

“The Bernie Sanders voter is still a Volvo-driving, financially comfortable liberal who is pretty much white,” said Paul Maslin, a pollster who worked for the 2004 presidential campaign of Vermont’s last Democratic contender, Howard Dean. “I don’t see how Bernie takes large numbers of black voters away from Hillary Clinton, and he needs to if he wants any shot at the nomination.”

David Axelrod, formerly Mr. Obama’s chief strategist, noted that insurgent Democrats like Gary Hart and Mr. Dean who were able to win over many white voters fell short because they could not attract blacks.


Supporters at Mr. Sanders's first campaign rally last month in Burlington, Vt. His events have drawn predominantly white crowds. Credit Nathaniel Brooks for The New York Times

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Response to marble falls (Reply #79)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:49 AM

81. Don't like NYT? Try the google:

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Response to marble falls (Reply #79)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:52 AM

83. Now you trot out a month old article

 

even before BLM and the Netroots protest. Additionally, you are using photos from Maine and Vermont.

You are moving the damned goal posts and your 'facts' keep shifting so much that I am done discussing it with you.

You may have the last word as I am sure you want that.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #83)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:58 AM

84. Nice try. Are you saying African Americans have evolved their opinion in the last month and ....

Bernie has drawn them under his umbrella?

I'm guessing you didn't see this in Phoenix?

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/18/martin-omalley-bernie-sanders-interrupted-hecklers-phoenix

Democrats
O'Malley and Sanders interrupted by Black Lives Matter protesters in Phoenix

Netroots Nation session derailed as crowd chants over speeches
Activist invited onstage before O’Malley is forced to leave it


Martin Pengelly in New York
@MartinPengelly

Saturday 18 July 2015 15.32 EDT


The Democratic presidential candidates Martin O’Malley and Bernie Sanders were heckled and constantly interrupted during an appearance at the Netroots Nation conference on Saturday, as protesters over police brutality towards African Americans took the stage in Phoenix.
Tears and anger at funeral of 'police chokehold victim' Jonathan Sanders
Read more

O’Malley was eventually forced offstage, after the protest and his attempts to respond delayed the appearance of Sanders.

O’Malley, who stood patiently throughout the interruption, which was led by Tia Oso, national coordinator for the Black Alliance for Just Immigration in Phoenix, attempted to answer questions from activists. He eventually left the stage clapping and saying rhythmically: “Black lives matter, black lives matter, black lives matter.”

Arriving on stage shortly afterwards for what turned out to be an abbreviated, 20-minute appearance, Sanders shook moderator Jose Antonio Vargas by the hand and said: “Earning your pay today?”

He then said: “Let me talk about what I’m going to talk about for a second.”

Sanders began a prepared introduction – as had been delivered by O’Malley – talking about policies, including media bias and the need for a raised minimum wage. Chants of “black lives matter” and either “save our men” or “say her name” then broke out again.

“Black lives of course matter,” Sanders said. “I spent 50 years of my life fighting for civil rights and dignity, but if you don’t want me to be here that’s OK. I don’t want to out-scream people.”

The crowd allowed Sanders to continue, and he stood and walked the stage to make points about prisons policy and other social issues, repeating his campaign theme of calling for “a strong grassroots movement which I call a revolution” and calling for more people, and young people in particular, to vote.

As activists began chanting again – changing their refrain to “I want Bernie Sanders to say my name” – he attempted to answer questions, eventually asking Vargas “What are we doing here?” and “Are you in charge here?”
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Gaining some sort of hold on proceedings, Sanders said: “Black people are dying in this country because we have a criminal justice system which is out of control, a system in which over 50% of young African American kids are unemployed. It is estimated that a black baby born today has a one in four chance of ending up in the criminal justice system.”

Sanders and moderator Vargas – a journalist and film-maker who is an undocumented migrant – achieved some flow of question-and-answer conversation, on criminal justice reform, immigration and more.

On immigration, Sanders said: “I support what the president did [on executive actions in the face of Congressional intransigence] and would go further. But you have a Republican party owned by big business and too many Democrats also owned by corporate interests.”

O’Malley had spoken to Vargas for more than 20 minutes about a range of policy issues before an activist took the stage to deliver a long monologue about immigration and police violence in Arizona and beyond.

To chants of “black lives matter”, an organiser pleaded: “Give the governor a chance to respond.”

Subsequently, a second protester, a Black Lives Matter activist who was introduced as Patrice, was invited on to the stage to ask a question.

“It’s not like we like shutting shit down, but we have to,” she said. “We are tired of being interrupted.”

She added: “We are in a state of emergency. If you don’t know that emergency, you are not human.”

“I want to hear concrete actions,” she told O’Malley, “and I want to hear an action plan.”
Donald Trump attack on John McCain war record is 'new low in US politics'
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Bernie Sanders appears at the Netroots Nation 2015 Presidential Town Hall.
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Bernie Sanders appears at the Netroots Nation 2015 event. Photograph: Charlie Leight/Getty Images

“Let me say a couple of things,” O’Malley began in response. “All of us as Americans have a responsibility to recognise the pain and the grief throughout our country for all of the lives that have been lost to violence, whether at the hands of police or civilians.”

His words were greeted by heckling.

O’Malley tried to respond, saying: “This is … let me … sure. I’ll just share with you … I’m trying to respond as best I can. No … hey. Look … I know, I know.”

Vargas said: “What just happened there? I’m so lost.”

O’Malley switched to an inclusive tack. He said: “Every life matters and that is why this issue is important. Black lives matter, white lives matter, all lives matter.”

He was greeted, repeatedly, by booing.

It was reported afterwards that the teleprompter on stage had carried an apology to O’Malley.

Among pressure groups, support for the protesters was strong.

Anna Galland, executive director of MoveOn, issued a statement which said: “The presidential candidates’ responses today to the powerful protest led by black activists at Netroots Nation … make clear that all Democratic candidates have work to do in understanding and addressing the movement for black lives.

“Saying that ‘all lives matter’ or ‘white lives matter’ immediately after saying ‘black lives matter’ minimises and draws attention away from the specific, distinct ways in which black lives have been devalued by our society and in which black people have been subject to state and other violence.”

A joint statement from Democracy for America and the Progressive Change Campaign Committee said: “Black lives matter and we stand in solidarity with every single organizer and activist who stood up and demanded that presidential candidates challenge power and respond to the crushing consequences of structural racism.”

Immediately after the event, in a tweet, O’Malley said: “Everyone deserves a voice. #blacklivesmatter. I WILL promote a racial justice agenda as president.”

Using the same medium, Vargas said: “To folks who ask me why I didn’t stop protestors: We cannot silence people of colour and women of colour #BlackLivesMatter. #nn15”

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Response to marble falls (Reply #84)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:25 PM

92. Now you are just being a jerk.

 

Do you enjoy insulting my intelligence? Maybe you enjoy insulting me because I am bi-racial and yes, support Sanders.

Perhaps you could see that in that time period, support has grown because the Sander's campaign continuously responds and communicates with all who come in contact with it INCLUDING POC. Sanders' speech in Texas directly addressed issues brought up in the BLM protest.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #92)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:33 PM

95. What is it with you and your insults? Grow up.....

He is speaking to the issues and always has. The problem is he isn't getting through. In your opinion is that Bernie's problem or are you suggesting its the AA community's inability to comprehend Bernie? Because the fact is that Bernie has a VERY low turnout for PoC in his audiences and Bernie needs to address that somehow.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #95)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:37 PM

96. Yes, bluntly I believe that the AA and minority communities

 

are really know different than white communities. Politically speaking, they vote against their best self interests. They are very easily swayed by media propaganda. And often they are low information voters.

Given his history, given his voting record, and given his responses to minority concerns over the time frame in question, two months in, yes, I do think that is more the case.

And it is rich as fuck, that you continue to insult me and push the 'grow up' statement now. We are done here.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #96)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:40 PM

97. Bernie disagrees with you:

Bernie Sanders vows to beef up his appeal to minorities
06/27/15 04:59 PM
facebook twitter 9 save share group 104
By Joy Y. Wang

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/bernie-sanders-vows-beef-his-appeal-minorities

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders — whose home state is more than 95% white — has said that he will make a notable appeal to minority voters in his 2016 bid for president.

“We’re going to significantly increase that,” Sanders said to reporters after a campaign stop in Nashua, New Hampshire on Saturday. “The views that we hold are important to all Americans … but to be honest with you, they’re probably more relevant to black and Hispanic voters … because the poverty rate in those communities is even higher than whites.”

Sanders has generated unexpected levels of enthusiasm in his campaign and recently drew thousands to events in Denver and Minneapolis. However, he continues to have trouble gaining traction with African-American voters.

RELATED: Bernie Sanders to supporters: Stand with the Emanuel AME Church

The senator had recently planned events in South Carolina designed as outreach to African-Americans in the early primary state, but the massacre of nine at a church in Charleston led Sanders to put those events on hold. One day after the tragedy, Sanders was criticized for holding a rally about pensions not far from an ongoing prayer vigil for those killed in the attack. His campaign, however, soon issued an email soliciting donations to benefit the church where the shooting took place.
The Ed Show, 6/22/15, 5:00 PM ET
Sanders draws huge crowd in Denver

Sanders is “virtually unknown to many African-Americans,” his advisers admitted to The New York Times on Wednesday. Minorities represent a crucial portion of Democratic voters, and 95% said they could see themselves voting for former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, according to a recent NBC/Wall Street Journal poll. In comparison, only about 25% of minority voters could foresee supporting Sanders.

Though he has a long history as a civil rights activist, the self-described “democratic socialist” also bears a mixed record on gun control. He voted against the 1993 Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, which was signed into law by then President Bill Clinton and requires mandatory background checks and five-day waiting periods for those purchasing guns.

Two days after the deadly shooting in Charleston, Sanders held a moment of silence in memory of the victims before speaking at an event in Las Vegas. Nonetheless, he remained careful in his remarks afterward about gun control. Sanders e underlined the difference between guns in rural areas — which dominate Vermont — and in urban cities, a point he reiterated on Saturday in New Hampshire.

When questioned about his record, Sanders pointed to his stance against high-capacity assualt weapons, a point he’s made previously, as well. He also noted his poor standing with the National Rifle Association, telling reporters that the organization rated him “somewhere between a D and F.”


Where have I insulted you or called youa name or used obscenity with you? Grow up.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #97)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 04:50 PM

117. I would recommend that you stop trying with him/her ...

 

he/she see what he/she wants to see.

It's a lot like telling a drunk, he/she has a drinking problem ... they may have just been fired from their job for hang-over related absenteeism, they may, on a regular basis, wake in the gutter or in a strangers bed, they might even be hospitalized because alcohol poisoning, their family and friends are all gone and they are stealing/pawning everything that they can get their hands on to buy the next drink, and haven't had a meal in days; but, you cannot tell them they have a drinking problem.

Only they can come to that realization ... and in too many cases, it's too late.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #117)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:51 PM

170. Once again, you're the smarter person in the room.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #96)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:31 PM

201. Could you possibly be more INSULTING?

You come into the AA group and say shit like this?

M99
96. Yes, bluntly I believe that the AA and minority communities
View profile
are really know different than white communities. Politically speaking, they vote against their best self interests. They are very easily swayed by media propaganda. And often they are low information voters.

Given his history, given his voting record, and given his responses to minority concerns over the time frame in question, two months in, yes, I do think that is more the case.

And it is rich as fuck, that you continue to insult me and push the 'grow up' statement now. We are done here.


If they are so "easily swayed" and "low information" and "vote against their best self interests" why, pray tell, are there so few people of color to be found at the GOP conventions? The joke that the only black people up in that joint are either working in the restaurants or entertaining on the stage isn't, in actual fact, a joke--that group of fleecers is white as snow--and they've got plenty of propaganda fired up come election season--they DOMINATE the airwaves. Why, then, were all these "low information voters" who "vote against their best self interests" not sufficiently stupid to buy those lies?

Black and Latino voters are some of the most well-informed voters on the rolls. They have to be. Their lives are on the line, and one of the few outlets of power they have--when they are permitted access--is their vote.

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Response to MADem (Reply #201)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:55 PM

206. This is not insulting in the least.

 

But this is one of the reason I dislike posting here.

I just had a host tell me that expressing these thoughts in the Sanders forum is inappropriate (even though I have not) and better to post them here, and now you are telling me that having expressed it here I am insulting people. Mixed messages anyone?

No, black and latino voters are not a special group who are magically more well-informed as a monolithic whole than any other voting block including whites or Asians. Americans in general, no matter what their race or ethnicity, are incredibly ignorant of most political issues, are easily swayed by propaganda that comes from both parties, and yes, do vote against their best self interests.

You act like in this post that I am not a minority voter myself, and if you are white and posting this, you are perpetuating certain myths. My father's side of the family was no more well educated on political issues than my mother's, and I learned that sad fact quite young.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #206)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:09 PM

211. Calling AA voters stupid is insulting.

"Low information voter" has a very specific meaning.

And yes, black and latino voters ARE a special group who ARE (not magically) more well informed, because they read publications that are geared to their concerns and seek out other media--like radio and television, and now, the internet-- that target them--it's shit that white people don't even think to look at.

If you are indeed a "minority voter" yourself, you're telling me you never once picked up a magazine at the barber shop? Really?

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Response to MADem (Reply #211)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:14 PM

213. No, we are not a special group.

 

But apparently the members of this Group feel that way. I am not welcome. I will not come back. I am trashing the forum which is sickening to me.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #213)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:16 PM

214. Mmmm hmmm. Fair winds and following seas, then!

I hope the years bring you increased understanding.

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Response to MADem (Reply #211)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:52 PM

220. AA voters are not stupid but no, we are not more informed than any other group

As I've said countless times, after voting Democratic, I think the next largest voting block for black folks is NOT VOTING AT ALL.

Alot of black people are too busy trying to stay alive to get too sucked into politics. But that doesn't in any way mean that we don't understand what is important to us or that we don't have ideas of how to fix them. And that poster's REPEATED insinuation that we are fools being led by propaganda and we need the Great White Savior Bernie Sanders (or insert name here) to come and save us is no different from the kind of shit that is also said REPEATEDLY by the Tea Party. Racism is fucked up, no matter WHERE it comes from.

Hopefully, one day that person will come to better grips with the beliefs he's espousing. And hopefully with himself.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #220)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:13 AM

226. I take your point, but I also know that white people don't routinely listen to

media by black radio personalities, or latino ones, that speak to specific issues of interest to these communities. White people aren't watching Univision or Telemundo, or reading Newsone.com on the net. So there is a difference in the way people perceive the world around them, and it's affected by race and/or ethnicity and primary as well as secondary sources of information. And a lot of information is simply passed along by people bullshitting with one another.

My point to this guy is that if some black voters were so low information that they were just taking it all in, cluelessly, and responding to input without thinking much about it, you'd figure we'd see a small mass of them convinced by all those brightly colored campaign commercials to vote for the Republicans, and maybe see some of them mustered at GOP rallies, wearing their Kerry purple heart bandaids or waving their Romney signs!

The only POC I see at GOP rallies look like they're paid to be there. They're either laughing their asses off or 'shamed and ducking' trying to stay out of the photos! And they aren't voting for the GOP, either, so they're not so stupid that they buy what they see on the TV and then translate that into a vote for a Republican. In that regard, they're smarter than a lot of the white low information voters in the "It's Morning In America" crowd.

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Response to MADem (Reply #201)

Mon Jul 27, 2015, 10:41 PM

303. You wouldn't think that poster could possibly be anymore insulting.. but, I wouldn't bet on it.

TM99
96. Yes, bluntly I believe that the AA and minority communities
View profile
are really know different than white communities. Politically speaking, they vote against their best self interests. They are very easily swayed by media propaganda. And often they are low information voters.

Given his history, given his voting record, and given his responses to minority concerns over the time frame in question, two months in, yes, I do think that is more the case.

And it is rich as fuck, that you continue to insult me and push the 'grow up' statement now. We are done here.

Like, the Black Community didn't fight and die for their Voting Rights.. and this guy comes along and insults them like this in the African American Group.

WTH.

Our Nation owes a great deal to the African American Voters for standing in long lines for hours.. and helping so much to get Obama elected President twice! And, I am forever grateful.

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Response to MADem (Reply #201)

Tue Jul 28, 2015, 04:08 PM

334. Well. I have to agree with him/her on one point ...

 

affluent African-Americans do, in fact, vote against our economic interests by voting Democratic ... But it's not because of media propaganda ... we do so out of a consciousness and selflessness.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #95)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:15 PM

267. You can come back and not be insulted

Three hosts agreed - Number23 pulled the trigger - he's been blocked from the group.


Eta: His insult was alerted on and survived. We have areal problem with a jury that won't hide a direct insult/attack.


AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your alert

On Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:48 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

Now you are just being a jerk.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=19543

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

Flat out insult of a post and kind of accusing the poster she is responding to of being a racist because she is bi-racial yet supports Sanders. AA Group hosts are very tolerant but this needs DU's eyes on it

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:54 PM, and voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: So, didn't get enough people agreeing with your reply?
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Name calling is lame, but I don't think it's that over the top for DU.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #92)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:50 PM

184. I've seen enough. Between your performance in this thread and your idiotic performance a few months

ago where you came in here far more determined to be offended and insulted by the posters in this forum than to engage us, it is obvious that you want to be here as much as we want you here.

You are probably the only person in the world that would take that poster's comment about not seeing a single AA in the crowd so literally. I think it's pretty obvious that their point is that even if you want to argue that there are poc in the Sanders crowds, that they are massively underrepresented. Your inability or unwillingness to argue that is very telling.

So maybe you should just stay away from the AA group. It seems like that would be best for everyone involved.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #184)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:58 PM

207. This is your bias.

 

The poster used the word "literally no POC" but I am at fault for taking responding directly to what was said and not inferred if only I was a mind reader?

Yes, after I finish my other reply to you and others in this thread, I will bow out.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #207)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:01 PM

208. Like I said, the fact that you focused so much on that one word while ignoring their point

says it all. It is well known that Sanders rallies have an absolute DEARTH of poc. Your decision to tap dance around that point instead of addressing it shows your own bias and no one else's.

Please do not return to this forum.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #48)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:22 AM

69. the BS group supporters

 

Last edited Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:05 PM - Edit history (1)

view the world through a racially distorted prism. POC on this site, as one small example, are being shut down, out, hidden or otherwise marginalized. Period. You are right about his audiences. Pretty white with a sprinkling of black or brown faces. The BS group locally, same thing. Are we not getting the message? Are we being somehow prevented from entering BS arenas? Something is amiss and it's not POC. I pointed this out a while ago and it's still going on. Something is amiss if BS is such a champion for AA issues.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #69)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:04 PM

85. As a Sandernista myself, I agree with you and don't get the disconnect between Bernie's....

image to AA and his record. But it is something Bernie needs to address and not by having his acolytes preaching and talking down to AA.

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Response to Tobin S. (Original post)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:08 AM

45. With all due respect...

... I believe this lack of support you cite is the result of fabrications thrown out there by those who are determined to swiftboat Bernie's campaign. These agent provocateurs count on the fact that too many people can't be bothered to do a little - and I mean VERY little - homework.

There are very few white men of a certain age, as it were, who have done more, up to and including risking his life in Mississippi in the early sixties, to further the cause of Civil Rights than Bernie Sanders. In that regard, he doesn't owe anyone a damned thing.

A point to consider: First, Black lives DO matter. I'm behind that one trillion percent. I am enraged and disgusted by the unspeakably evil acts of white supremacist cops. BUT... does it serve the long-term interests of the Black community to verbally assault one of the few white politicians in Washington who has proven that he DOES care about the horrors being visited upon People of Color? These problems will never be overcome without white allies; that's an irrefutable fact of life. And preaching to the choir doesn't accomplish much, as we all know. Success will only come by working together to combat the racism that still pervades our society, and the cop culture's siege mentality in particular. Incidentally, my younger stepson is a cop. Sadly, he's fallen in with a bad tribe, and I've given up trying to reason with him.

Second point: At this point in his campaign, Sanders is detailing his positions on the broad issues that affect ALL Americans, not necessarily those of one segment of society or another. That doesn't mean he doesn't care, or isn't thinking about what's happening.

I think a more productive strategy would be to throw your support behind the only person in this race who has given far more than mere lip service to addressing your concerns. And that only person is Bernie Sanders.

Bernie is one of my senators. I've been watching his career since he first ran for mayor of Burlington back in the seventies. I've met him, and I've spoken with him. I'm a cynical old bastard and I don't trust anyone too readily, let alone politicians. But I trust Bernie, and I think you can, too. He's the real deal, and the best bet for the Black community, and all communities. At least give him the chance to prove it.

Thus endeth my sermon. Have a good day.

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Response to gregcrawford (Reply #45)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:20 AM

56. The right and center are trying to swift boat Bernie

By saying he and his supporters are white elitists that take black people for granted. But the defensive posture we've taken only reinforces that meme. We have to demonstrate the truth that we are listening and do respect them.

People were asking about BLMs demands, and I can't speak for them. But the issues I've heard brought up are the drug war, poverty, mass incarceration, and out of control police. These are important issues for us too. There is so much overlap in what we want it is a shame to let hurt feelings divide us.

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Response to SolutionisSolidarity (Reply #56)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:24 AM

58. I haven't seen the 'white elitist' comments

From the Democratic Party leadership.

Can you give us a reference? Is this that asshat Rendell? He's good for that kind of assery running it's course. Pretty much the entire Democratic party is 'white elitist' - so I don't get why that statement would be made.

I know O'Malley hasn't made a statement like that.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #58)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:32 AM

59. They are usually subtle.

One of our congress critters said he doesn't know if Bernie cares about immigrants, for instance. As far as this issue is concerned team Hillary has been content to sit back and just magnify some of our more ill thought out statements. The blatant stuff is on the right, like the recent article that labeled him a NAZI.

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Response to SolutionisSolidarity (Reply #59)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:57 AM

63. That's the problem 'Congress Critters'

If it was your Congressman - then you need to hold his feet to the fire.

I'd be damned if I let Menendez or Booker make a snotty comment about O'Malley and let them get away with it.

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Response to SolutionisSolidarity (Reply #56)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:37 AM

60. You nailed it!

I have limited resources, and my back won't let me march anymore, but I am a very good writer, designer and illustrator with five decades of professional experience. I will donate my services, such as they are, if anyone cares to make use of them. Email me through DU, and I will provide more contact info.

Ever onward!

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Response to SolutionisSolidarity (Reply #56)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 02:10 PM

106. No, some of Bernie's supporters are swiftboating Bernie, by acting like privileged idiots.

And note I said "some of." Their numbers might not be large, but their influence is destroying the Sanders campaign.

Frankly, when the response they have to #blm is "Yes BUT" or "Let me EDUCATE you about how great Bernie is..." you've lost me. A lot of Bernie's supporters want black votes, but they don't want to focus on black issues.

It just doesn't work like that anymore. Bernie gets it, but a shit load of his supporters do not.

Pro tip: BLM is NOT making "demands." They are advising America that we are in a state of emergency. If someone told you "That tornado just tore up two towns in Alabama!!" would you call that a "demand?" If someone said "The hurricane flooded New Orleans and hundreds are dead!" would you call THAT a "demand?"

Good grief.

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Response to gregcrawford (Reply #45)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:21 AM

57. I can't see how he's best for the black community

I think the Democratic Party as a WHOLE is better for the black community -

But you know what is the best?

When the black community seizes the reins from the Political leadership and reaches down and side ways to help each other.

While I believe in a strong Federal Government - I also believe that all politics is local and we should be able to bypass state and Fed gov when it doesn't meet its needs. The real impetus *I think* for the expansion of Charter Schools in mostly black sections of cities?

A lot of that has to do with the fact that our childrens' needs are not being served by our state or federal government bodies.

They aren't. If they were - when the magical candidate ascends to office in January 2017 every black child who would have liked to have gone to this 'free university' would be able to attend AND excel in September 2017. Our children are not prepared - and Political Leadership playing games at state houses and in D.C. have been completely ineffective. They punish public school teachers who give a damn and try - and they reward those who keep the young ignorant.

This is just ONE hot spot. Just ONE - that the Leadership at the National Level in America is blind to.

Understand - you now have the grandchildren and great grandchildren of black Southern Republicans that had the money to vote PRIOR to the VRA (my grandfather is one)- and we can see how effective those people born at the turn of the last century were when they were their own islands. When they bought their own buses, hired their own teachers, worked together to get books into their schools, held study groups for share croppers kids (to bring them up to speed), worked as a community to get a share croppers kids a pair of shoes so they could walk to school.

^^^^^ These are not REALITY based narratives that Sanders can tell - because back then "marching" was not the same as surviving and well - Saying is not the same as surviving today. ^^^^^^^^^^^

We also see what happened when we were loyal to an idea/philosophy/party instead of ourselves.


When you tell us what is 'good for us' . . . You are causing some of 'us' who have the money and influence to work to work around you - to go behind your back and do what is best for our communities - regardless of what you or Sanders think . . .

Because we are DEFIANT.


I don't care about what goes on in the Sanders group - have the whole dang thing on Trash. I don't wish to go in there and 'offend' or create issues by TALKING DOWN TO PEOPLE and telling them what's good for them.

I wish everyone had that sense of respect for others.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #57)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:02 AM

64. It was never my intention to talk down to anyone...

... or to tell anyone what's best for them. But I understand how any suggestion, however well-intentioned, might be interpreted that way. And I would never equate "marching" with surviving on the blood-and-bone level that People of Color have had to endure for far too long. I'm an old white guy, so I'm a sitting duck for such criticism, and some of us certainly deserve it. But not all.

As far as Bernie is concerned, who else is there? I would love to see a woman as president; we're long overdue for it. But I don't trust Hillary Clinton any farther than I can throw my truck. And the Republican nutjobs? Seriously?

As I said before, of everyone out there, Bernie's got the most honest street cred of anyone currently running on either side, as limited as it may be. But no Caucasian can ever know what a Black person goes through every day, and it would be insufferable hubris to even pretend we might.

As an old white guy, all I can do is offer my support, however meager it may be, and perhaps another perspective that might contribute another pebble on the path to a solution. I would never presume to do more.

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Response to gregcrawford (Reply #64)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:16 AM

67. O'Malley -his experience is what I believe in

I can relate to him - and I can't relate to Bernie at all. And that's not on me - it just is 'out there'.

As of today - what I hear in the media is that O'Malley is a coal hating, gun grabbing, rain and toilet taxing Liberal, that Bill O'Reilly thinks is a waste of an apostrophe and Jeb Bush thinks is an idiot for apologizing for saying all lives matter.

Over here on the Left - those of us supporting him are LOVING how the grass roots on the Right as well as their talking heads and leadership are pummeling him. Have a day! He's got grit.

And he goes to the riot, he goes to the protest, and he sits down with two black women to have a conversation after being a jack ass and saying all lives matter.



It was important that I be at Netroots Nation this weekend,and I am grateful I was a part of the important conversation about ‪#‎blacklivesmatter‬—a conversation that must not end with this conference. I am already listening to and speaking with leaders from this movement, and I will continue to do so throughout my candidacy to ensure those voices and needs help shape my criminal justice reform package to make it as comprehensive and effective as possible
.
-O'M


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/06/you-have-martin-o-malley-all-wrong.html
He also (all things which directly impacted blacks in Maryland)
Ended death penalty in Maryland
Provided health insurance for 380,000
Reduced infant mortality to an all time low (this is huge in the African American community)
Provided meals to thousands of hungry children and moved toward a goal for eradicating childhood hunger.
Enacted a $10.10 living wage and a $11. minimum wage for State workers.
Cut income taxes for 86% of Marylanders (raised taxes on the rich).
Reformed Maryland’s tax code to make it more progressive.
Enacted some of the nation’s most comprehensive reforms to protect homeowners from foreclosure.

Daily Beast - http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/06/you-have-martin-o-malley-all-wrong.html
I don’t recall O’Malley stating that he would do something about ‘black crime,’ just crime,” wrote liberal Baltimore Sun columnist Dan Rodericks toward the end of O’Malley’s time in City Hall. “Coming out of the long, dreary Schmoke years, Baltimoreans appreciated O’Malley’s almost singular focus, along with millions in increased funding dedicated to drug treatment for the city’s thousands of addicts who contribute, directly and indirectly, to 80 percent of crime.”


“He was trying to stop the crime on the streets. People were getting killed daily on Old York Road and in Park Heights,” Robert Nowlin, a Baltimore community activist, told The Daily Beast. “He did something a lot of these mayors don’t do: He walked with the small people. A lot of these mayors stay in the affluent areas. He walked the streets.”


Only two former mayors have served in the White House, and it has been a long time since any major presidential candidate had a City Hall stint (other than one in New York) on his or her resume. It’s no wonder why. The problems facing America’s cities are so severe that anyone with visions of higher office better look for a job elsewhere. But attempting to face up to that challenge, and chip away at it in the manner that he did—however overzealous and incomplete—is what actually qualifies him for office, O’Malley says.

Drawing a bright red line between the Clinton and Bush years, O’Malley said, “We haven’t had an agenda for our cities in 30 years. It is not something you solve with a nifty pilot program. It is not something you solve with philanthropy or with a thousand points of light. When you create an economy where you subsidize corporate profits through a welfare program and food stamps in order to keep wages low in some perverse pursuit of ‘competiveness,’ than you reap the fruits of the anger that you sow. And that is what is happening in our country today.”



And the end of the day - if you are on the Left - what we have in common? Us is pissed. And with good reason.







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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #67)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:49 AM

80. I don't know enough about O'Malley yet...

... to express an informed opinion. You obviously do. I will read the links you provided, and do a little more homework. Thanks for taking the time to respond, Gen. I'll be in touch.

Best,

Greg

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Response to gregcrawford (Reply #80)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:33 PM

165. In case you missed some of this,

please come over to Martin O'Malley's group and learn. There's LOTS.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1281

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Response to elleng (Reply #165)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:54 PM

187. Thanks elleng

We have great info there!

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #187)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:38 PM

203. Yes, and HERE, thanks to YOU, Gen!

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #57)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:42 AM

236. Wow this thread is magnificent.

It seems to me that the destruction of our public school system is almost complete and my heart breaks. Federal dollars are streaming into private religious institutions and it's all good because we failed to address the problem where it lies.

Vouchers allow people to flee so we don't need to provide access to public education any more. And that's a good thing?

I realize that we must work within the framework where we live, but holy shit, that seems wrongheaded to me.

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Response to LiberalAndProud (Reply #236)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 06:49 AM

253. Don't know where you live

Or what your background is - but understand -

Enduring - they endured - is what black Americans do.

When I look at charter schools in inner cities - I see my dad's community in Talladega AL. In between nine kids that survived to adulthood, a husband with a farm, several businesesses - including booze and all that entails during Prohibition - my grandmother was a Spelman educated teacher.

My dad was born in 1941. There's not a lot of difference between the resources provided by the "State" to the black school district in Talladega Alabama in 1946 and what is provided in Camden NJ today. The examples I gave in the post you responded to are real. And consider the taxes my dad's parents paid - yet their children were given access to a school of free standing buildings with outhouses and wood burning stoves - in the 1940's and 50's. So they worked behind the backs of the "authorities" and thumbed their noses.

Now we can get "right with America" by waiting for resources our tax dollars pay into - or we can steal the American dream for our kids . . . Much as my granddaddy and his father did during prohibition.

The black parents trying to get their kids into charter schools - that can't afford the Private Prep school my parents paid for because my dad as a former school board member in our suburban posh s.d. had insight to the districts failures that only he wanted to fix . . . They have no choice.

I bet in September 2017 their kids are prepared for English 101 and Biology 101.

If urban and rural kids are getting crap - their parents have the right to be defiant.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #253)

Sun Jul 26, 2015, 03:09 PM

289. You describe your reasons well.

That would explain support for O'Malley, to be sure. It is one of his positions that I disagree with. More because I think the long-term impact will leave public schools unfunded and, over time extinct as the downward spiral is inevitable. And then the voucher "entitlements" will be vulnerable to attack by those who would rather not pay to educate someone else's children.

I fear in the end we will be left with an uneducated underclass and I think PoC will be most adversely affected, as always.

But as you say, we live where we live.

on edit:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027012970

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Response to LiberalAndProud (Reply #289)

Mon Jul 27, 2015, 05:28 AM

293. It's his understanding America screwed up

We can't wave a wand and fix the Segregated school system that our millenals grew up in. We can't undo the damage done the past 20-30 years. We will have two options - pull the late teens /early 20's American who received a sub par education out of the gate back into a few years of remedial classes so they can be successful in an intensive firt year of University - or we can invest in them on a go forward basis.


.

http://technical.ly/baltimore/2015/04/03/4-things-ex-gov-martin-omalley-wants-tech-community/

2. “Demand” more technical education.

O’Malley favors redesigning the fourth year of high school to provide opportunities for students to get college credit, and gain computer skills. He was especially emphatic about expanding career and technical education (CTE) learning, saying that it was the place where the tech community could make the biggest difference.

“If there were one thing that I would like to see our cyber and IT community do in conjunction with our state local and government, it would be to insist — demand — greater throughput on CTE skills for our kids by the time they leave high school,” he said.


https://martinomalley.com/vision/

EXPAND EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY FOR THE NEXT GENERATION
Our country was built on the belief that no matter who you are or where you were born, your hard work should pay off. But for too many of our children, that promise is out of reach from the very start. We must close the gap by making access to safe and affordable childcare and pre-K universal, and college debt-free for all. We should also modernize high school, empowering every student to graduate with a year of college credit, an apprenticeship, or a certificate or credential for a high-pay, high-skill job.

******************

If we are only focusing on Head Start and four years of free University - we will have an epic fail on our hands. The four year university students may have great ideas to transform our infrastructure with green and sustainable methods - with no one to swing hammers to implement - then maintain those systems.

Then - the flawless public education system takes possibly another ten years to provide the next body of contributors - who have all been focused university.

My husband has the equivalent of GED from Italy (tested out at 16), three years of blacksmith apprenticeship training (13 to 16), two years of intensive art school (Firenze), military, and HVAC Certification. Skilled in Masonry, Carpentry, Resoration (UNESCO) certified. He's 46 and physically tired so returning to his art work.

I'm 42 with a few degrees, certification in HS Security, Customs License, Fraud Investigation.

Who was the millionaire when we married? Whose employees in their early to mid 20's are making 80K a year in the trades (top one is a black woman) who was brought into an apprenticeship program ?

Whose most recent hire has close to 80K a year in Student loans and is still pursuing a master (company paying for it).

Which of those two women owns her own condo and can start a family ? Which one can't do those things.


One grew up hiding in her bathtub in Camden NJ and one grew up in Basking Ridge NJ.

Look up those school districts. Median income, property values, etc etc.

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Response to gregcrawford (Reply #45)

Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:33 PM

164. Gaaaaah.....see, you just did it!!!

Black lives matter....BUT....

There is no BUT. And no one CARES, frankly, what Bernie Sanders did well before most of the kids in the news getting killed by police were born. This may sound harsh, but the song "What Have You Done For Me Lately" applies.

I tried to explain this to a DUer and got the hand for my effort. This is part of what I said:


I don't know what more I can do to get it across to you that it's not a YES BUT issue. And there IS a learning curve on this issue--not just for you, but for everyone who says "Yes but" and "White lives matter" and "All lives matter" after #blm speaks their truth. And that's every single POTUS candidate who has bothered to weigh in on the issue, thus far. They are being educated--they are doing a better job of adjusting to that curve than many, though. All of them have modulated their messaging to include this concern--and that is how primary contests work. Issues are raised, and candidates either address or ignore them--they're not ignoring this one.

When children are starving due to drought, no one says "Yes but." When New Orleans was flooded and people were dying and lost their homes, no one said "Yes but." When hurricanes flattened towns in Alabama, no one said "Yes but."

The people who are protesting #blm are simply saying that they are in a state of emergency, that their young people are being murdered by police. It's not a "Yes but" thing....it's a "That's TERRIBLE!" thing--it's a "What can we collectively do to solve this?" thing. It's a "Let's prioritize this on the national platform" thing.

It's not about you, or me, or anyone save the young people who are being threatened by--and some killed by-- police every day. And the activists who are publicizing their truth.


An "Angry" (and hilarious) Black Woman posted her view on the internet of how many in the AA community view Sanders' supporters constantly referencing what he did a half century ago, like it matters today and is a one-up/shut-up that works (pro tip--it doesn't). One of our favorites here reposted the brilliant and acerbic essay and actually got a hide for posting a LINK that describes how MANY people feel. I couldn't believe it.

What's "productive" in this whole mess is watching people who clearly don't have the interests of black people first and foremost in their heart telling black people to sit down, shut up and vote for what they regard as the "right" candidate. What #blm is saying is this--the black vote doesn't come cheap anymore. It's got to be earned. Instead of scolding black people, it's time to do some wooing, because this "you people" and "father knows best" routine goes over like a lead balloon.

And thus endeth MY sermon, and I hope your evening goes well.

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Response to MADem (Reply #164)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:00 AM

222. Just everything you've said

is exactly what I've been thinking.

Now get outta my head!1!

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Response to Lilith Rising (Reply #222)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:47 AM

246. Heh heh....! nt

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Response to MADem (Reply #164)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:41 AM

243. May I just AMEN to everything you just uttered? You just took me to church.



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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #243)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:44 AM

244. ..............



Love the gif!!!

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Response to MADem (Reply #164)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:23 AM

263. Yes, but ...

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #263)

Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:29 PM