Since socialism is all the rage nowadays...

[Chitown Kev]

I thought that I would pull out this quote by George Orwell.

Granted, Orwell didn't get everything right in this installment of his famed "As I Please" column, he did realize some things that many American socialists have not (and still do not) recognize.

The coloured worker cannot be blamed for feeling no solidarity with his white comrades. The gap between their standard of living and his own is so vast that is makes any differences which may exist in the West see negligible. In Asiatic eyes the European class struggle is a sham. The Socialist movement has never gained a real foothold in Asia or Africa or even among the American Negroes: it is everywhere side-tracked by nationalism and race-hatred, Hence the spectacle of thoughtful Negroes getting ready to vote for Dewey, and Indian Congressman preferring their own capitalism to the British Labour Party. There is no solution until the living standards of the thousand million people in this world who are not "white" can be forced up to the same level as our own. But as this might mean temporarily lowering our own standards the subject is systematically avoided by Left and Right alike.

As I Please, Tribune December 10, 1943

Now Orwell doesn't get everything right in that passage, but in discussing the race/class nexus he remains more right than not right.

[WIProgressive88]

1. I think that this sentence says it all:

"There is no solution until the living standards of the thousand million people in this world who are not "white" can be forced up to the same level as our own."

Thanks for the post.

[F4lconF16]

2. Agreed, and many socialists have not done so.

But the fact remains that the only true fully racially accepting movements apart from the purely social ones have been either communist or socialist ones...history is not on the side of capitalist parties as far as race goes.

Racial justice has, unfortunately, a long history of being ignored or fought by almost every movement.

[Chitown Kev]

3. I agree with you...

The history of the black civil rights movement in the The New Deal era is replete with examples of this, for example, it was The Communist Party that defended the Scottsboro Boys and the defendants, themselves, preferred the defense of The Communist Party to the NAACP.

And outside of the black community, it was very often socialists and communists...the TRUE Far Left...that gave a damn about the black civil rights movement at a time when black folks were catching hell...and that was even as the race/class nexus was difficult to negotiate then...and became increasingly so after World War II.

Most black people active in the civil rights movement in the The New Deal era appreciated the help nevertheless few of them actually became communists or socialists.

As far as capitalism is concerned...you are generally right but there are exceptions.

[F4lconF16]

5. I can understand why they wouldn't have joined.

In most of the socialist/communist groups I've interacted with, demolishing classes of all sorts is a top priority.

Now, don't let them hear you say this, but their problem is exactly that. They're focused on all classes--meaning the working class vs the capitalist class is often a large focus of their actions.

And that's fine, to some extent. That struggle is important, and we need to keep it in mind at all times. The issue I have with that is that it tends to end up meaning that issue gets priority, as it's closest to the "end game" of revolutionary politics.

When I worked with the ISO, for instance, they often said things like, "It's our job to connect the dots and keep the capitalist vs. the underclass struggle in the forefront of people's minds". That's fine--but it also means that even though fighting racism, gender oppression, and for women's rights was a huge and integral part of their rhetoric, it was all in order to get to that final struggle. I feel like that struggle bled through too often into their anti-oppression rhetoric.

This is why, I think, most PoC tend to gravitate towards identity movements. When I was with the ISO, we met with and discussed tactics and racism with members of OA206. OA206 had no intentions of joining with us, though, despite their revolutionary rhetoric. I get that. They needed to focus only on their own issues.

Again, I have no problems with the way the ISO ran things. It's absolutely necessary to have someone there that's going to unite the different struggles under a single banner, leading to a total societal overhaul. But I certainly don't expect those whose individual struggles have to be their primary focus to identify with the socialist movements, even despite the very, very strong anti-oppression rhetoric coming from those movements.

[JI7]

4. but in practice it doesn't seem to have worked just as communism didn't work.

i think it's an area that is apart from economics itself.

race and other social issues. women's rights is another example where i see it as an issue in itself.

[F4lconF16]

6. Well...I think that genuine socialism has failed so far for entirely different reasons.

In the few times genuine Marxist-derived socialism has been tried.

I completely disagree that our economic situation can be separated from the social issues. It's fundamental to too much.

Our focuses can and should separate, however. Our emphasis' should as well. I tried to make that point in the above post.

[JI7]

8. i think the reason more socialist economies work in certain places is because they tend to be less

diverse.

a big reason for many people not supporting many govt programs and is because certain people view it as giving away things to certain types of people(the darker skinned ones).

[F4lconF16]

9. Totally agree with that.

God, it's 2015. Such a bunch of crap we still have to deal with this crap.

I can search more information than there was in the world 5 years ago at the touch of a button on my magical device that has me connected with literally every other electronic device I own...but police can shoot people walking down the street in blatant racism, and it's okay.

I'm spoiled as hell to be a millenial. Most people I know are surprisingly aware of these issues. Though, admittedly, I choose the people I'm around fairly carefully.

[Chitown Kev]

11. Remember that at the time Orwell said this

he was a socialist and an anti-Stalinist (read Homage To Catalonia for those deets) and while he didn't know all that much about American racism (which is quite evident in the quote) he was also a policeman in Burma for five years, so he did observe the general pattern of this up close.

And he maintained his criticism of British imperialism during this period as well.

In the same essay, Orwell also says this:

..."that problem simply cannot be solved inside the capitalist system..."

So I don't think that Orwell saw racism and capitalism as separate problems. I do think that he was saying that replacing capitalism with socialism was a non-starter with non-white people if the underlying systems of racial privilege weren't also addressed...which is something that socialism alone cannot do.

[F4lconF16]

12. Ah, thanks...

I like the way you read that. I agree.

Thanks for the perspective.

[TheKentuckian]

90. I'm not a magic bullet man. There is nothing that will resolve deeply ingrained,

acorn to root to trunk to limb to leaf problems alone that can made to happen alone.

It is a nearly universally applicable point not something particular to what I'd think in nearly every opinion is at least a significant component.

[lovemydog]

7. Thanks for that interesting Orwell quote

Kev.

[Starry Messenger]

10. I'm a socialist rooting for Hillary, so I'm neither fish nor fowl this election.

(Disclaimer: I sometimes think I don't fit in anywhere in this convo. I will say that my own branch of socialism broke with other leftists over questions of race and class. Back in the day, some people felt the racism needed to be a part of the struggle, and that only dealing with questions of class was inadequate for movement work in the US. I don't claim we are perfect on all things, but you can see the shortcomings of colorblind socialism in certain conversations around this election.)

The most diverse group of people working successfully for reform are in the Democratic Party. If people are acting in ways that empowers the right wing, what good does it do to bounce around saying, but I'm a socialist! People who would never want to call themselves that are more immersed in everyday struggle, finding ways to fix the worst abuses of the ultra-right visited on the most underserved communities, are doing more for democratic struggle. Building strength and protecting your vulnerable flank, living to fight another day, are better, imo, than wallpapering the internet with #FeelTheBern.

Racism is the most pointed locus of struggle, and Blacks get it the worst in the US. If we aren't putting our energy into supporting the immediate struggles in the African-American community, then what are we fighting for? I wouldn't trust *my* rights with vague promises of tomorrow, and I don't expect anyone else with any sense to do that either.

[F4lconF16]

14. Question: how do you feel about socialist groups that explicitly

Place their focus on eliminating all classes, including racism and gender inequality? There are many who believe in those causes immensely and whose socialism depends on championing and integrating those causes?

I have yet to meet a Clinton supporter who identifies a socialist that actually desires socialist policies (though i'm definitely not trying to imply that you aren't), so I'm curious to hear why you would split from them?

How do you feel about revolutionary black liberation groups and agitators? I have seen nothing from the groups I know of that would indicate they would even consider supporting Clinton.

[Chitown Kev]

15. Heck, the revolutionary black liberation groups and agitators

that I know of don't even support Obama much less Hillary (even though I might say that they support the idea of Obama).

They're as opposed to Obama as they are opposed to Sanders. You can read some of them over at Black Agenda Report.

[F4lconF16]

16. Yep, I like them. They've got a lot of good material.

It's a very self-consistent view, and one I largely agree with.

I have a lot of problems and inconsistencies within my own ideology since I haven't figured out whether or not a revolution should take place, and if it should, what for it would take, so my posts on here are perhaps not the best haha. I tend to agree with various points that both sides make, but so far I feel like I tend to fall more in the revolutionary camp than the non-revolutionary. The BAR has been a particularly helpful source in forming my understanding of race as identity and a construction. It's radicalism tends to be rooted in some of the stronger (well, more...self-consistent is the best I can come up with) ideology I've seen as well.

[Number23]

23. You got that right. The handful of black Greens and other such groups that I know of

Can't stand Obama. And I'm sure they are avid readers of BAR.

Black folks have our own version of the petulant left and like their white counterparts, they are NEVER satisfied, think the system sucks and is totally against them. The main difference between them and their white counterparts though is that they're a lot closer to actually being right.

[1StrongBlackMan]

27. You have such a way with words! ...

I read your stuff, with head a-nodding, and generally end up laughing before the end.

Thanks ... you make this site (beyond this Group) bearable.

[lovemydog]

35. Seconded.

And you too my friend.

[Starry Messenger]

46. +++

[Number23]

50. Awww. What a sweet and lovely thing to say!

That is so sweet of you. I appreciate that and you should know the feeling is 100% reciprocated.

[gwheezie]

17. I don't understand why black americans

Would vote for anyone running for the nomination currently but ya gotta vote for somebody.
My 1st exposure to a political/social/economic movement was when I was 15 and joined the progressive labor party because of my then boyfriend. As I expanded my experiences I was also influenced by black activism and the woman's movement. I found both the economic focused movement and the civil rights movements at odds with each other just at the basic meeting level. I wasn't very sophisticated then because I was well 15 but my direction led more towards the civil rights movement for POC, women and lgbt people.
My personal experiences of being poor and homeless living life on the margins alienated me from the more intellectual movement that took hold on college campuses. I could not afford to go to college but would attend classes and found some safety on the radical left but as a female the real power and liberation I found was in the woman's movement.
The entire time I was struggling to survive I recognized my privilege of being white, as difficult as it was, I did have it easier because of my race. I saw it everyday. I got just enough more help to make a difference because inspite of the circumstances of being homeless, hustling, losing custody of a child and participating in criminal behavior I was considered saveable.
This is entirely tmi but at the same time doesn't come close to the awakening of understanding the difference between economic struggles and as a white girl realizing my privilege.

[Chitown Kev]

21. Our experiences aren't all that different, actually

I'm black, yes, but...how do I put this...I was raised with kinda sorta "Talented Tenth" expectations and some people were willing to throw opportunities my way that I probably didn't deserve.

People considered me to be "saveable" as well. And I have always...always been a voracious reader.

[1StrongBlackMan]

29. I, too, was ...

raised with kinda sorta "Talented Tenth" expectations and I KNOW beyond a doubt that some people were willing to throw opportunities my way that I KNOW I didn't deserve.

I, too, was seen as saveable ... thank the universe I had some pretty amazing parents, and a community circle, that kept me focused beyond myself (and humble).

[Chitown Kev]

31. Whereas I was introverted and rebellious

and, to some extent, resentful at the expectations...

[1StrongBlackMan]

39. Oh, don't get it twisted ...

I went through 3 distinct "Phases" ... but it's all good. I came out alright!

[Starry Messenger]

19. Those are lots of questions! :D

I'll try to take a whack at them. I'm not sure which groups you mean specifically--in my case, we tend to be process oriented, and take a look at what is happening in real time, which keeps strategies organic and not dogmatic. Racism and gender inequality can transcend class, so often we have multi-class allies in the work to mitigate racism and gender inequality. Broadening the core forces makes your coalition stronger for these battles, and it should be as wide and diverse as possible. Any group in democratic struggle should have a healthy relationship with a broad assortment of people, and not just on narrow ideological grounds.

I think most people I know on DU, in real life as Democrats, and most of the socialists, desire to turn back the right, who are the biggest obstacle to national progress. It's more a question of what ground you win, to produce more space for more advanced work. There are mass movements out there already, like Fight for $15, a broad coalition trying to win environmental reforms, a push to eliminate Citizen's United, etc. The question I ask myself, is what do these movements need to keep existing and getting stronger? So I guess it's less a question of Person A wins=we will get this policy, and more if Person A loses=how does that make our work harder? (I know there is a school of thought that equates certain Dems with the right, but I can tell you that after several years with Jerry Brown, he's much preferable to Arnold, whatever Brown's shortcomings. Grassroots work here for many wins has been *much* more smooth.)

I also know no Black liberation or Black grassroots groups that are big on Hillary or Bernie or anyone else. Most of the groups I know are concentrated on local work though. There's a broad range of views on working in electoral politics in general too. I also know Black activists more left-wing than Bernie. It's hard to generalize about one group or another. Sometimes your points of alliance will be on other issues than the Presidency. I guess that's the short answer?

[F4lconF16]

26. Thanks!

That was really helpful.

I think I'm headed more and more away from most of the leftist groups I know. They simply can't seem to compromise enough to form those broad coalitions.

That being said, I would really like to see a movement that connected activists for all sorts of things within a single front that engages local communities on all sorts of topics, but places it within a broad anti-capitalist framework.

I've supported Sanders so far for what I believe is a very limited capacity to do that.

Got some ideas on how to do this, but I can't talk about them here on DU haha.

[1StrongBlackMan]

30. LOL ... Good luck with that! ...

That being said, I would really like to see a movement that connected activists for all sorts of things within a single front ...

I became convinced ... long ago ... that being convinced of one's own rightness is in the DNA of every activist!

I was reminded of this recently, as I sought to engage the local Urban League and a local Hispanic advocacy group to co-sponsor a candidates night. Although, my organization was to foot the bill and organize the event ... I just wanted their representation and them to spread the word.

It looks like the event will not come about ... why? Because the two organizations are fighting over whose name gets top billing!

But we still have 7 months to pull it together.

[bettyellen]

33. I did something similar years ago- and we did two versions of the flyers-

making them look as equal as possible, and using phrases above and below the two groups names...
saying working together! A new coalition (or something like that). And then made another switching positions of the two names. He basically printed 50/50 of the two versions and gave out stacks we had literally shuffled.
I think it was the emphasis on "working together!" that tamped down a lot of the complaints. And people had the option of throwing out every other flyer if they really needed to, or tailoring who they gave them to, I guess.
Good luck!

[kjones]

13. Kick

[Buzz cook]

18. Don't think the quote is germane to Bernie or this time frame.

There are as many flavors of Socialism as there are socialist or close to it. The industrial workers type of socialism is very different from the middle class Euro-Socialism that Sanders seems to espouse.

While there is great disparity between blacks and whites in the USA, but not compared to the disparity between the world and the USA and or Europe.

Negros in the 1940s were new to the Democratic party, many still voted Republican. It was unlikely that they'd move to the Socialists, especially considering that Socialists were loosing power from their high water mark in the early thirties.


During the war there was lots of employment, even for blacks. Socialism isn't attractive to people with good jobs and disposable income.

Most importantly Bernie Sanders is not asking anyone to become socialist of any flavor, so there's no need to shift parties. His proposals are ideologically main stream, as Sanders is himself.

[Chitown Kev]

20. Although it was inevitable that Bernie Sanders became a part of this conversation

(since the topic is entering national consciousness in a positive way that it hasn't done since the 1930's) this topic really wasn't about Bernie Sanders...but if you must go there...

Bernie still comes off, to me, as a more traditional type of socialist that sees class struggle as the ultimate thing and thinks that race issues are peripheral.

IMO, Orwell had a more nuanced view of the race/class nexus than Sanders does. Of course, he saw the race/class nexus up much closer and more personally than Bernie Sanders ever did and it showed it in his writings.

[F4lconF16]

28. It always surprises me how many on the radical left fail to see

Racial, gender, and identity oppression as class oppression of a different nature.

[Buzz cook]

85. You'll have to define your terms

Which radical left do you refer to?
Many people would say the Black Panthers were of the radical left, would they be the ones that couldn't differentiate between racial and class oppression? The suffragettes were a radical left group, did they have difficulty in differentiating between class and gender oppression? Or are you referring to Code Pink as having difficulties with that class/identity thing.

Certainly many groups that identified themselves as leftist had problems. The Italian Communist Party was infamous for being more sexist than the church. Early American labor unions worked to exclude blacks from their membership, heck not modern unions have in living memory, as well as excluding women. Fabian Socialist would have put conditions on welfare that would have made a conservative blush. And of course everyone hated gays.

So lets look at the modern left.
http://socialistparty-usa.net/

3) We stand in opposition to all forms of oppression including but not limited to racism, sexism and homophobia.

http://www.cpusa.org/

We make the fight for equality an important part of every struggle we fight. The Communist Party fights for full equality for people of all races, for women and men, straight people and LGBT, for speakers of all languages, for young people and older people, and for people of all religious beliefs or none. The U.S. working class includes millions of immigrant workers. We stand for full rights for these workers, regardless of their documentation status. We believe in equality because it is just and right. Even more, the fight for equality is key to uniting the working class into a powerful force for the changes we need.

http://www.iww.org/
The wobblies didn't have an easy to find statement about racism, sexism, or identity as did the socialists and communists. They did have this after searching for sexism.
http://www.iww.org/content/there-alternative-anti-authoritarian-organizing-against-capitalism-europe

Many of these right wing groups, such as the Tea Party, are a phenomena of the crises caused by capitalism. Exploitation, the gender inequality in domestic work, wage labor, sexism, racism, and more necessitates the
fight against capitalism.

One could argue that the IWW places capitalism as the fount of oppression and other forms as mere subsets, but you might want to contact them for clarification.

So, the radical left, what do you mean by that?

[Buzz cook]

86. It was the quote in particular not Orwell in general that I objected to.

Bernie is the reason people aren't condemning socialism out of hand. When asked about socialism he has always referenced Scandinavian states such as Denmark and Sweden, rather than organizations such as the American Socialist Party.

That's why I brought up Bernie and why I peg him as a Euro-welfare state socialist rather than a industrial workers socialist.

If you didn't want to talk about Bernie, I apologize for bringing him up.

[Chitown Kev]

87. Actually, I didn't bring Senator Sanders up...YOU did.

However, the distinction you make about Euro-welfare state socialism v. industrial workers socialism (which we are much more familiar with here in the states...although Europe is familiar with that as well) is important.

I have nothing to apologize for. The name "Bernie Sanders" was not in the conversation (although, of course I alluded to him) until you said.

What, are there new site rules that say that those who are not true believers who utter Bernie Sanders name are blasphemers? GTFO!

[Buzz cook]

89. Hang on there.

I admitted bringing Bernie up and apologized for it. I never asked you to apologize for anything and I don't think there is anything in this thread you need apologize for.

I don't know if there are new rules one way or the other, I am not here to enforce them if there are.

I have noticed that people on either side tend to go from conversation to anger pretty quickly.

btw I am a Clinton supporter.

[Chitown Kev]

24. You'd be surprised, though

at how successful that the Depression-era Communist Party was in recruiting blacks in, of all places, Alabama.

[Number23]

22. Awwww SHNAPP. Sooky sooky na

FYI That's you in the jacket. That's the rest of us around you admiring the hell out of your lyrical prowess.

[Chitown Kev]

25. lol, Well, in this case, it's more George Orwell's than mine

but thanks for the complement!

[lovemydog]

36. LOL!

[randys1]

32. Most white Americans believe capitalism is what affords them what they have, whatever that is

and that they have availed themselves of capitalism where Black people and other minorities haven't or not to the same degree.

This mistaken belief is why they think most people on welfare or whatever it is called are Black or Latino.

Your average white non Democratic Socialist, including most Democrats, believes they are capitalists, when in fact they only work for capitalists, and they believe capitalism is how they are able to distance themselves from people who dont look like them.

So, getting them to see capitalism for what it really is, and socialism for what it really is, gonna be tough.

[lovemydog]

41. Yes, it's a tough sell.

I'm not the salesman type. Nor am I much of a preacher. I'm more the diplomat and comedian type who wants to bridge gaps and get people seeing what they have in common. It's probably partly from being the youngest in my family (seeing older folks argue and wanting to reduce conflict) and from an ecumenical Christian upbringing (presbyterian, parents into the civil rights and ecumenical movements). They were liberal and in college and grad school I became more leftist thanks to smart and compassionate professors and colleagues who talked the talk and walked the walk in a compassionate loving and friendly manner. When I say I'm a democratic socialist to me it means working within a mixed economy, but moving things more in a left direction than a right direction.

In my mind it's a good 'product' to sell because it's democracy with a human face. There's a great interview with Angela Davis where she talks about how mixing the freedoms and bold spirit in this country with a little more democratic socialism can raise the potential of so many and create even more freedom and opportunity for many more.

For me personally, being a democratic socialist means working with and getting along with democrats wherever possible. I enjoy figuring out where they're coming from and feel their hearts are in the right place. I've never liked the fundamentalists 'Tear down everything! It's the only way! You suck if you don't agree with me.' They leave me cold and a little freaked out. Like, I want to quickly leave and go find a friend to talk about movies or sports, lol.

To your question, for me personally I have no desire to destroy the best parts of capitalism. I want to expand the freedoms associated with it, and bring in a little more democratic socialism too. Every industrialized country has a mixed economy. I think ours has too much unchecked hyper-capitalism that only benefits the top and helps them get even richer. I want to put a lot of the jelly on the lower shelf where everyone can reach it.

[1StrongBlackMan]

53. I know this will get me labelled, again and more, a 3rd-Way Centrist ...

lackey of the oligarchy; but ...

I've never liked the fundamentalists 'Tear down everything! It's the only way! You suck if you don't agree with me.' They leave me cold and a little freaked out.

The vast majority of people that behave that way, cannot answer the, "And then what?" question.

Like Malcolm, and most of my peers, I am a dyed in the wool regulated Capitalist. PERIOD.

[lovemydog]

54. Yes, the 'And then what?'

then leads me to query 'And then I'd be stuck getting harangued by humorless demagogues like you all?' to which I reply 'No thanks.'

Oh, and I don't label you any way other than cool guy and online bud.

[1StrongBlackMan]

55. Well thank you! ...

I nearly put my head through a wall when DU got on the "Don't Bail out the Banks ... Let them fail" thing.

No one, that doesn't have 6+ months of food stuffs and water, defensible space, and the guns, ammunition, and training (and WILL to kill), to defend that food stuffs, water and defensible space, should even think allowing a global crash is a reasonable solution to anything.

[lovemydog]

56. Good point.

It would have looked like Australian Rules Football or a Resident Evil game.

[1StrongBlackMan]

59. Yep ... Only it would be for real ...

and keyboarding skills/Keyboard bravado would have little to no value ... "Now give me you food! ... And I'll take your daughter and wife, too!"

That is NOT a world I want to live in ... let alone help to bring about, because I cannot distinguish between real life results and ideological fantasy.

[Kind of Blue]

34. I agree with the gist of the passage, particularly

"The Socialist movement...is everywhere side-tracked by nationalism and race-hatred..."

But when we speak of all the isms, we ignore or treat separately the glaring underlying foundation in this country that the nuanced -isms were derived. I mean how is it even possible to attain a more perfect form of government when the thinking of the people, including politicians/religious leaders, is steeped in a system of European superiority that is the basis of the reality we continue to experience today? The construction of these isms, as lofty and humanistic(?) as they sound, consistently miss the mark to me because they use economics and class to evade the responsibility of fighting for the right to exist without physical harm first and, of course, the other forms of suffering.

There's an exchange between author Richard Baldwin and his friend, French philosopher, Jean Paul Sartre. Sartre planned to visit Baldwin in the States in 1945. Baldwin knew exactly where to take him because Sartre was crazy for jazz and he wanted to meet black people. They were in Harlem having a good time when Sartre asks Baldwin, "Richard, can you tell me about the black problem?" Baldwin responds, "Black problem? We have a white problem. It's the attitude that whites have toward black people."

Stunned Sartre realized they had no Jewish problem in Europe but the problem of anti-Semites. In '46, Sartre wrote "Anti-Semite and Jew," that invigorated debate in post-war France where many tried to minimize the particular suffering of Jewish people.

[Chitown Kev]

37. Yes.

I mean how is it even possible to attain a more perfect form of government when the thinking of the people, including politicians/religious leaders, is steeped in a system of European superiority that is the basis of the reality we continue to experience today?

One of Orwell's virtues in that respect is that by being in England and by being a civil servant in Burma, it was easier for him to see that it was "a system of European superiority."

Many (if not most) Americans see themselves, now more than ever, as something distinct and separate from any sort of European system of anything.

White Americans, no matter when they arrived here, are the product of "European systems" in every way you can imagine, including systems of white supremacy and racism.

[Kind of Blue]

43. I do see your point, Chitown Kev

But I think, too, that they do know they are the product of "European systems." I've just read so many quick to point out what happened to their ancestors when they arrived here. I think we all know exactly what system we're talking about but I applaud Orwell for identifying the source.

I just don't think the -isms mean a thing when the solution is that living standards must be "forced up to the same level as our own." As we know better, improved living standards does not save us from the cop who feels a little hankering for intimidation and/or blood.

"But as this might mean temporarily lowering our own standards the subject is systematically avoided by Left and Right alike." Hmm...lowering our own standards, says to me that in order to achieve economic justice, we must lower standards of living. He goes right back to the system in trying to be helpful but at the same time equates equality with lowering of standards.

His argument starts with the evils of the European system then is pretty scary for people when they think their lives will be worse off if we got rid of the system, even temporarily

[Chitown Kev]

44. Ah, I was wondering when someone would pay attention to that sentence.

"But as this might mean temporarily lowering our own standards the subject is systematically avoided by Left and Right alike."

Which actually has everything to do with the subject of "gentrification."

[Kind of Blue]

45. Oh yeah, the whiteness of the space

often determines its value.

[F4lconF16]

49. Ouch. I see that here in Seattle.

It's painfully obvious. And the good liberals up here somehow miss that every time.

[Chitown Kev]

52. This will be our next topic, in fact

amid all the weeping and gnashing of teeth regarding the BLM action and the SS rally that featured Bernie sanders, Ms. Johnson mentioned gentrification in Seattle as one of the big problems. And I've seen no one of the "nice white progressive" type bring up the gentrification topic again

And of course, gentrification is not simply a white/black issue; there's the encounter between the jogger and the couple with the power stroller in Brooklyn.

How much development is too much development in a "blighted" neighborhood? Should those that want to move in and gentrify have to lower their standards a bit (per Orwell)?

Because it's not as if the places where gentrification is occurring are becoming more conservative; they're as "liberal" as they ever were. They are simply whiter.

[1StrongBlackMan]

57. Damn ...

I don't think I need to post anymore! That was the most intellectually rigorous exchange I have seen on DU in months!

Between you and Kind of Blue ... ya'll laid it down!

[Chitown Kev]

60. Thank you! That means something

I mean, let's leave aside the candidates for a moment and let's talk issues...there are reasons why POC don't trust white progressives.

[1StrongBlackMan]

62. Yes, sir! ...

I've found a direct, but inverse, relationship between how loudly one proclaims their own progressiveness and their trust-worthiness. Unfortunately, many on this site made up my data set.

I'll try and find my post where I discuss it and explain why I, generally, use quotation makes when I refer to progressives.

[Chitown Kev]

63. I owe the phrase "nice white progressive" to an old Kossack

Adept2u (at least I think that's where it comes from)...one of the reasons he no longer posts at Daily Kos is because of the propensity of nice white progressives to get on his last damn nerve.

[1StrongBlackMan]

72. Okay. Here is the one that started it ...

If being (DU) "progressive" means ...

advocating income equality AND championing sacrificing the poor and working classes (i.e., "Let's go over the fiscal cliff!&quot ; and/or, advocating income equality AND championing sacrificing PoC, women, and the LGBT community (i.e., "Income Equality IS the most important issue of our time&quot ; and/or, advocating a set of policy goals that begins with "IF" (and that "IF" involves a series of unlikely occurrences) AND criticize Democratic policies (established in the current political environment), as inadequate; but, in their imperfection, do benefit the majority of the poor and working classes (i.e., the ACA, Executive Orders, etc.); and/or, spending the vast majority of your posts (especially during election season), criticizing Democrats, Democratic candidates, and "other" Democrats for supporting Democrats and/or Democratic candidates, as has been presented by DU "progressives"; then, ...

you are quite correct ... I am in no way a DU "progressive"!

Thank the universe!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12775886#post22

[Chitown Kev]

75. LOL, now I have that Schoolhouse Rock theme in my head

"and, but, and or...they get you pretty for..."....but not in this case...

[1StrongBlackMan]

77. LOL ...

In my first writing of that, I had written:

... advocating income equality AND championing sacrificing PoC, women, and the LGBT community (i.e., "If you don't see that Income Equality is THE problem ... then, YOU are the problem" ...

Which was written, then deleted, by one of the "pillars of DU"; but, I decided not to phrase it that way because he would have just denied that he wrote it.

[Kind of Blue]

68. Aww, stop :)

It's got to be rigorous because there was no stone unturned to set up this self-prepetuating system, especially now that so many attack our political freedom while we still deal with ongoing violence. It's freaking overwhelming.

[Number23]

88. I echo 1SBM. Your exchange with Kev in this thread is fantastic

Once again, I am SO GLAD that you are back.

[gwheezie]

65. Newark riots

I was living in Newark at the time. The state bulldozed housing where human beings lived to expand the university and medical school. The insult to me anyway was they tossed the now homeless poor people a bone by building a community college.
My thought at the time was look how proud the urban planners are of themselves. A neighborhood torn down with no clue that before you can get an education you need a roof over your head. Build another project and tear down the 2 and 3 family homes where your neighbor watched out for you and you kept your door open so you could hear what the kids were up to.

[Chitown Kev]

66. Or you can do as The University of Chicago did

and use the surrounding neighborhood as a "lab" for all sorts of things, including building projects.

Obama's affiliation with the University of Chicago was a reason that many blacks in that part of Chicago did not trust Obama for a long time .

[gwheezie]

70. The doors to the university

Didn't open for the poor or black neighborhoods. We got the community college that couldn't get accreditation. I was on welfare for a time pre Clinton by the way so I couldn't blame him but I was told I had to get into a training program. That's how I got to the cc. I had choices to get certification in things like typing. It was a precursor to the welfare to work pipeline that trains low wage workers at the cost to the taxpayor to staff big corporations that don't have to pay for the training. It's a pretty good scam
I picked nurses aid. That's where my social worker thought my best bet was. My white privilege came into play when I got funneled into a nursing program after I started working. There were no black students. Mind you since I was female the suggestions were typing and nurses aid.
I'm not angry. Things worked out for me but it was pretty clear how these social programs were supposed to work. That's why although I took advantage of any crack in the door, I could see the scam. At least intellectually I can understand why these young activist folks may not be falling in line to the dismay of some liberals.

[Kind of Blue]

67. LOL...that entitlement rant

in Brooklyn went to a new mind-numbing height and jaw-dropping low! Wow!

Good question about whether or not standards need to be lowered. I look forward to that post, Chitown Kev, because I think this lowering of standards is a false dilemma. You know, like Orwell naming problem (supremacy) to rid inequality but uses the problem to justify fear of equality

[Chitown Kev]

69. Maybe...maybe not

the "lowering of standards" argument is actually a very, very, old argument. I don't necessarily disagree with it but I do think that it's a bit more of a complicated problem than that.

Although with the gentrification issue, it might be that simple.

[Kind of Blue]

71. Okay and I look forward

to your topic to understand some more, especially where Orwell gets it right.

[1StrongBlackMan]

58. I'm not going to leave you one ...

Damn ...

I don't think I need to post anymore! That was the most intellectually rigorous exchange I have seen on DU in months!

Between you and ChiTownKev ... ya'll laid it down!

Thank you!

[lovemydog]

38. Thanks for this ongoing discussion everyone.

Every post is fascinating reading. Nuance, different perspectives and no one jumping down another's throat. I love it.

[randys1]

40. I hear more and more cons or teaparty are liking Bernie, that scares me as a Bernie supporter

I dont want ANY alliance with those assholes.

[lovemydog]

42. Haha, I hear you.

I don't really care too much about who else might or might not like something. I like NFL football. A lot of right wing assholes do too. Fuck 'em. I still like football.

[Starry Messenger]

47. I was tabling today (for local elections)

And a fellow came up asking me about Bernie and said he loved him, and that he used to work for Ron Paul's campaign. That seems strange to me, I don't know why someone would jump from a free market fundamentalist to a democratic socialist, unless they really aren't that interested in the economic program of either. Baffling!

[randys1]

48. It shows how dumb and uninformed they are. They support someone who is

diametrically opposed to their very existence, yet they dont even realize it.

[F4lconF16]

51. This.

It's not because they know what they're doing.

On a bus back from Portland to Seattle, I talked to a guy who couldn't make up his mind between Trump and Sanders.

Clueless doesn't begin to describe it. I think in his particular case, he was a strong nativist, wanting free everything for us citizens (read: white people) but hating immigrants.

Idk about alliances. These people aren't going away. Take their votes and not their policies. They do learn, if slowly. After 3 hours of talking, he hadn't changed much, but he had agreed that the term "illegals" was wrong.

Just make sure that the isms are the focus, and not the newly gained base of whites. It has the potential to go wrong quickly if whoever they support isn't willing to ditch them as soon as they try to pull policy to the right.

I cannot believe it's taken me this long to get Ismnotwasm's username. Derp.

[randys1]

73. Ismnotwasm havent even tried to figure that out...

i is not was ?

[F4lconF16]

76. I think it's

It's racism and sexism, not racwasm and sexwasm. Basically, it's still here and fully functioning.

Probably my favorite username on DU.

[kwassa]

61. A.Phillip Randolph would probably disagree with Orwell.

The American Communist Party was the only political party in the US in the 1930s and the 40s that supported black civil rights. They paid for the defense of the Scottsboro Boys. They attempted to organize the black workers of the South.

A. Phillip Randolph was a longtime member of the Socialist Party,

During the Popular Front era the party attracted support from a number of the brightest lights in African-American literature, including Langston Hughes, Richard Wright, Ralph Ellison, Chester Himes, some of whom joined the party, only to break with it in later years. Paul Robeson, a vocal defender of the Soviet Union, apparently never joined the party, but was loyal to at least a few of its members including Ben Davis who was jailed under The Smith Act.

There was a long and complicated relationship between Socialists, Communists, and the black civil rights movement in the 1930s and 1940s, and into the early '50s, before the shit hit the fan.

This Wiki article about it is pretty good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Party_USA_and_African_Americans

[Chitown Kev]

64. Some of this material has already been covered in this very comment thread

with links...you should read the comment thread.

Do you honestly think that a black man like myself is going to come over here and post something in the AA Group and not know somewhat what I am talking about? I've already done a book group on the subject that covers most of this material (and Orwell, by the way, gave Richard Wright's Native Son a very good review)

Randolph would actually agree that for black people, the underlying systems of racial privilege and white supremacy had to be addressed and solved in order for a true socialist society could exist at the same time as racial equality.

Randolph would agree with that aspect of Orwell's analysis here; all you have to do is to look at Randolph's history of fighting for racial equality within labor unions.

EDIT: Let me add this.

Another reason why A. Philip Randolph would be more inclined to agree with Orwell than you suspect is that one of the strategies of the black civil rights movement at that period of time was to place the struggles of American blacks within a global context.

Remember that the struggle over British colonial rule in India had already been widely covered in the American black press for over 30 years at the time Orwell wrote this. (remember that George Washington Carver was Gandhi's nutritionist!) Randolph would probably nit-pick around some fine points of Orwell's analysis but would basically agree with it, IMO. (and I haven't posted all that he said nor can I find the complete piece online),

[kwassa]

78. Do you expect me to actually read a thread before commenting on it?

That's not the DU Way.

How else can we have endlessly circular conversations on the same topic that never end?

[Chitown Kev]

82. LOL, you do have a point, lol...

Although, that would not be my ideal of a comment thread that is attached to an OP of mine.

I would like to encourage discussion (and argument), education, and links...I like the type of OP's with comment sections that conceivably be taken into a classroom...a bit of a salon, if you will.

[bravenak]

74. Good quote. I'm not really here.

[scarletwoman]

79. I SEE YOU!!!

WELCOME BACK!!!!!!

[bravenak]

80. How did this place get worse while I was gone?

I missed you and SOME others.

[scarletwoman]

81. Good question. It's like a spreading madness, and not enough antibodies left to fight it.

Didn't help that you weren't around!

I just pretty much hang out here in AA these days, where sanity and probity still reign.

[gwheezie]

83. Glad you're back

It is worse, this is the forum that saves the place from being a parody of liberalism.
I made the mistake of being delightfully witty and clever in a reply in GDP and was alerted on. That'll teach me, I'll never be witty and clever again.

[bravenak]

84. Witty AND clever? Uh oh. Probably factual too.

GDP is a trainwreck.