** Posted to the African-American Group ***

[1StrongBlackMan]

I'm, currently involved in a workplace investigation, where a doctor is being accused of unprofessional conduct (with respect to how she provides directions in her operating room, e.g., no "please" or "thank you", an the usage of inappropriate language, e.g., "I will literally assassinate you if you don't move faster&quot .

The question was raised whether the employees had made their concerns know to the Doctor's leadership. Apparently, they had; but, the leader explained away the doctor's conduct by saying, "Well ... she (a) Latino so she is just passionate." The quote was supplied by a Latina and she indicated offensive because &quot she is) Latina."

After the interview, my counter-part wanted to make a big deal regarding the leader's statement and that the Latina employee was offended. I saw it as a stereotypic characterization; but, raised the issue of there being different language usage and cultural mores, among Latin peoples. For example, (as is this case) an American-born Mexican has a different understanding of American language use and set of cultural mores regarding appropriate/inappropriate speech from a Columbian-born Latina.

I made the point that I would have little in common with a continental-born and raised African in terms of American language use and set of cultural mores.

That the American-born Mexicana does not/did not know this, tells me we have a lot of ground to travel with respect to inter AND intra-racial/ethnic understanding

[leftofcool]

1. I think that all makes sense.

[ismnotwasm]

2. Excellent point

I will say however, in healthcare we are required to have some cultural competency education- I have to be recertified every year--interestingly though, and to your point, such competencies are broad-based, and uses a dominant cultural paradigm language i.e. "Muslim's have a strong sense of personal modesty and may want a same sex caregiver". This is, of course a way of imparting information, but the "default" here is that personal modesty for non-Muslims isn't that big of a deal. Which, in reality, may or may not be true by individual.

My husband had a neurologist--briefly--who's origins were from Bosnia. He came back fuming over this guy's bedside manner, and I tried to explain that it was probably a cultural abruptness commonly seen in people from Eastern bloc countries AND, it was possible that the guy had been through horrors we could only imagine. "No"' says my husband, "this guy is an asshole". Well, I might have been "right" but it turned out my husband had the more insightful opinion. He got a different neurologist.

A LOT of ground indeed.

[hueymahl]

3. Interesting Analysis (yours is good and reality based)

I'm an employment attorney, so I naturally started reading this from the standpoint of "was their any law violated."

Looking at the Doctor, unless she is treating races and nationalities differently, being rude is not a violation. It may violate hospital policy, but it is not a legal violation if she is rude across the board (it is more nuanced than this, but close enough).

Looking at the nurse, she certainly has the right to complain. It does not sound like she complained about race or ethnicity, so I guess it was just a complaint about unprofessional conduct that may or may not be a violation of hospital policy.

Here is the interesting thing. Under the law, you treating the doctor differently because of her nationality MAY be a violation of the law, even if you are giving her better treatment (or, in this case, failing to discipline) because of her nationality, and even if you in good faith think you are doing the right thing. This kind of analysis feels wrong to most people (myself included) because it fails to account for all the factors. But that is the way the law is written and has been interpreted.

Quick piece of advice - don't document anything similar to what you stated on this board in the file. And if you fail to discipline the doctor (but would have another doctor without the same background) and the doctor then retaliates against the nurse, you could be put in a very tough spot.

Thanks for sharing the story.

[1StrongBlackMan]

5. Ahhh ... my Brother! I worked for my State's AG, doing employment law ...

I, currently, work at a public Academic Medical Center that is trying to figure out the rules to govern ...as we have merged with a for-profit healthcare provider ... it is a nightmare, as the cultures and missions are disparate. They are trying to apply bright-line codes of conduct around their ill-defined "Core Principles"; whereas, we, being a public institution are policy driven. Their mission is "excellent patience experiences"; whereas, we are about the training of outstanding physicians. And, they bring to the table a sense of superiority ... because private business is always better than the public sector.

Looking at the nurse, she certainly has the right to complain. It does not sound like she complained about race or ethnicity, so I guess it was just a complaint about unprofessional conduct that may or may not be a violation of hospital policy.

No. There is no allegation of discrimination. In the instant case, I have concluded that the hospital staff is resisting being directed by the doctor/Faculty-member because they don't like HOW she is providing direction ... she wants it done the way she wants it done without debate ... and does not say "please" or "thank you." Can you imagine an X-ray Tech telling a Vascular Interventional Radiologist, "No. I don't think you should do it that way."

And, the matter isn't helped by my HCP Counter-part enabling her staff's tantrums by coaching them prior to interviews.

Quick piece of advice - don't document anything similar to what you stated on this board in the file. And if you fail to discipline the doctor (but would have another doctor without the same background) and the doctor then retaliates against the nurse, you could be put in a very tough spot.

Thanks ... I am familiar with the Rules of Discovery and Privilege.

[hueymahl]

8. Sounds like you got it in hand - and quite a handful it is!

Good luck! Especially with the public-private merger or cultures. I can only imagine.

[1StrongBlackMan]

9. LOL ...

Especially with the public-private merger or cultures. I can only imagine.

During the merger talks, it was all about a marriage of equals ... the day pen hit paper, we got told, "Now ... Go make me a sandwich ... and make it snappy!"

I joke with our General Counsel, "When is the Board of Regents going to ask for their money back, since it is clear, the HCP had two teams of outside counsel negotiating; whereas, we had none! Our supposed counsel, literally, gave away the farm."

[JustAnotherGen]

4. Very True

The 'CPT' thing a few weeks ago illustrated that to me - when explaining it to co-workers - one from Jamaica and one from Haiti.

[1StrongBlackMan]

6. I learned the point when I moved to Arizona ...

The same words in Spanish that wouldn't cause a batted eye for a East Coast or Mid-west Puerto Rican ... were fighting time for South Western Mexicans.

[bettyellen]

10. Yes, I worked with a team of women from a dozen Latin American areas and some words that

were considered disgusting were mild insults by other cultures. And they had been maintaining a pecking order based on skin color, which I only inadvertently found out because I saw my prized new hire on the edge of tears. God, I ripped all those women a new one, explaining the new hire had a lot to teach them or they'd be first out the door.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

7. It is sad that we misuse and destroy language so we can be abusive and racist.

But we do,, and the language loses.

Kind of like what Carlin often talked about...

Having said that, language has never been used to hurt me because I dont fit in any of the categories where it would be in white str8t America