African American
Related: About this forumI recently found out that a visitor to my home considers me a racist ...
Why? ... Because all of the artwork on my walls and tables in our home have a African/American-American theme (including a painting of the Christ and the Last Supper, wherein the Christ and the Disciples are distinctly African); the vast majority of the books on the shelves of our library are by, or about Black people; the vast majority of the music to be heard in our home is by Black artists; I am active in several volunteer organizations, but I spend most of my volunteer time and energy working with those that work with Black youth; I am well versed in several topics (American/World history, Politics, Economics) and am able to speak intelligently about how those topics relate to/effect Black.
The person that informed me of the other person's impression of me is a young white female (my daughter's best friend) and she wanted to ask me if I was, in fact, a racist. After taking her through a discussion of how Black folks CAN BE, and some are, prejudiced or bigoted; we CANNOT BE racist, as we do not have the institutional power to systemically effect white folks.
So then, she asked me whether I am anti-white (which told me she was able to understand the racism discussion).
My answer to her was, "No, I am not anti-white; but I AM PRO-BLACK. The two concepts are very different.
This caused her some discomfort, until I asked her: whether she felt I had ever mistreated her or heard of me talking negatively about, or mistreating, any white folks?
She responded, "To be honest Mr. 1SBM, I have never heard you be critical of white people, as white people." Then, after some thought, she stated that she barely recalled me ever talking about white people, good or bad. And the occasions that she did recall, I talked about how that particular person talked about racial matters.
Then I asked her to think about how I talk about Black folks. Her response was she had never heard me say anything negative about Black people ... only positive and encouraging things
I told her, "See, I do not define myself, or my condition, relative to white folks, so I have no reason to talk them down. It doesn't uplift me, to dwell in negativity. However, I do define myself and condition, relative to the Black community; therefore, (the goal/intent of) my every action is to uplift the Black community, and therefore, myself."
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angstlessk
(11,862 posts)Our first Thanksgiving together was my mother (my father died when I was 16) and his mother and father...and I forgot to take out the giblets from the cooked turkey...and we all laughed at my oversight.
I am a 60+ white woman who met my sig other, a black man 25 years ago...after about 10 years together, he met another woman, white whom he told me was not as racist as I was..I recall driving to my mothers house in tears..to make a long story short, she moved back to Florida to live with her father..and told him not to call cause if her father knew she was with a black man in VA he would disown her
SHE was the racist, because I introduced my sig other to my mother who was at least as prejudiced as her father...and to hell with the backlash...
sheshe2
(97,620 posts)Well done!
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)It would be helpful to me if we were to clarify a couple of points. I have always thought of "racism" as synonymous with "racial prejudice," i.e. the tendency to pre-judge someone based on one's stereotypical assumptions about their apparent racial group. I gather that you use the term in a way that does not apply to individuals, but to social institutions, e.g. "America is a racist country," meaning that there are systematic cultural biases, whether or not they are formalized into law, that demean or disadvantage a given race. In this sense, an individual cannot be racist, but can be--say--a bigot. Am I reading you correctly?
Springslips
(533 posts)We learned that racism was a schema of memes, laws, ideas, roles, stereotypes and privleges that favored one group over another. If one the list is forwarded by a member of the lessor empowered group it was prejudice but not racist as it can not reinforce privleges.
That's the way I understood it.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)hating someone for their race, no matter what it was = racism. It applied to all people then. It is the definition I have and probably will have because it gets to the personal heart of what I interpret racism to be.
It doesn't matter about the power, etc stuff. You can pass laws and if people still hate others for their skin, they are racists practicing racism whether they are a hobo living under a bridge or the King of America.
It makes it simpler and easier for me. Judging by race whether you can kick someone in the teeth or not is racism. it was what I was taught not to emulate and the definition I will keep.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but I, as a Black man, am less concerned with bigotry than racism, as racism affects/disaffects classes of people whereas bigotry affects/disaffects/extends only to individuals.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)merely individuals. This is true all over the world. Currently, there are far more laws allowing discrimination against LGBT as a class of people than exist against any other class of people.
Great thread by the way.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I disagree with the frame ... It is not the bigotry that oppresses the LGBT community; but rather the systemic/institution anti-gayism (I know there is a word for that, but it escapes my at the moment.)
Bigotry is hurtful on an individual basis ... Someone calling you (in the generic sense) the F-word, might hurt your feelings or make you mad ... but that is something that you can control/get past.
But the system, and institutions, that makes it "ok" for that bigot to call you the F-word, also makes it ok for you to be denied the right to marry, the right to not be discriminated against in the workplace, housing or public accommodations.
You can walk away from ... or kick the sh!t out of that bigot (or both); but you can't walk away from the system.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)because it is then easier to see how "reverse racism" (i.e. against white people) doesn't really make sense.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But understand, the resistance to this is based in the recognition of the loss of privilege (that many insist, doesn't exist.)
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)the ridiculous term was coined to play on emotion, particularly, resentment because of the perceived gains of black people, at the expense of more deserving white people. decimating AA was popular among white republicans and democrats...we got sold out first.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and not to confuse matters ... a person of the "lessor empowered group" can act in a racist manner towards a fellow member of the lesser empowered group. For example, Clarence Thomas arguing that Black culture rather than institutional obstruction is the cause of Black/white disparities.
TBF
(36,665 posts)I was in a very small homogenous community so my first discussions of these topics was in college. That may actually be one of the reasons we see so much prejudice against our president - many folks have never even thought about these issues in any meaningful way. They may understand the idea of prejudice but do not understand that when it's a part of the society (institutionalized racism) it is affecting folks no matter what individual choices they make. I think about this when folks use words like "reverse racism" - they don't have a clue what they are talking about and have little understanding of the inherent discrimination minorities face each day.
MrScorpio
(73,772 posts)Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)I saw that thread when you posted it before, and appreciated it then as well.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)That is part of the meaning, it does, however, play out at the individual level when one benefitted by the institutional power acts with racial prejudice. The person without the institutional power can be bigoted, but not racist because he/she does not have the institutional support.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)...acting primarily out of racial animus.
Racism or not racism?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)
Anansi1171
(793 posts)Great discussion. And we can argue about scale- but it must be apples to apples to be just.
As a black man, if I am a principal, commanding institutional power, and I discriminate against a white due to racial bigotry, thats RACISM!
As AAs, and as we gain institutional power whereever and whenever, we MUST be anti-racist.
We owe our ancestors and our children - and ourselves - a world free of racism.
That principal would be a racist and as a real strong blackman myself, I would be the first to let him or her know that!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The words mean similar things but not the exact same thing. The dictionary definition just wont do.
Just like when creationist use the word theory like a layman. In their world a theory is just a guess.
When we use the term racism, we are not using the sixth grade definition. We are using the sociological definition of racism.
Institutional racism is a pattern of social institutions — such as governmental organizations, schools, banks, and courts of law — giving negative treatment to a group of people based on their race. Institutional racism leads to inequality; sociologists use the concept to explain why some people face unequal treatment or occupy unequal statuses. One historic example of institutional racism is the barring of African-American students from attending certain public schools, which limited the students' educational opportunities and helped prevent them from achieving a status equal to that of others. Institutional racism need not involve intentional racial discrimination. For example, individual judges might intend to impose similar sentences for similar crimes; yet if Caucasian people tend to receive lighter punishments, plausibly institutional racism occurs.
Thats why we also do not tend to call women sexist even if they hate all men just for being men. Because historically our group has no power to back that up or an institutional system that keeps women on top. The ism in this situation to me comes from the power. In america the black race has been oppressed so much that a black man walking around hating whitey with all his heart, is merely an oppressed bigot, not a racist. He has no power the keep white people down as a whole.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)a black man commands institutional power?
There are Black men that are principals that exercise complete control over their organization ... but that is not to be confused with institutional power.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)>>>There are Black men that are principals that exercise complete control over their organization ... but that is not to be confused with institutional power.>>>>
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)One can opt against a single manager or employer; one cannot opt against an entire society.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)It's perfectly understandable that an image of a god would reflect the image of the person who displays it, as 'god' is said to have made man "in his image."
It's also understandable that someone who reads and appreciates art would be drawn to authors and artists who understand his perspective. Sometimes I wish we were all nicely tanned and indistinguishable from each other so this kind of bullshit would die out, but being able to judge others by their melanin is so valuable to those who profit from dividing us.
One of my favorite authors is James Baldwin, and I have all his books; I wonder how that child would judge my reading collection. I suspect she'd be fine with it, since most of my books are by 'white' people (as well as Italians and Jews, who weren't considered "white" until fairly recently).
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Anyone can be racist. The statement that a black person can't be a racist is just silly. There is no part of the definition of racism that requires a racist to be in possession of any kind of institutional power authority.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/racism
MrScorpio
(73,772 posts)"Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior"
In this country, who have been subjected to prejudice, discrimination and antagonism, by whom historically?
Who have established the legal, societal and institutional means TO engage in prejudice, discrimination and antagonism?
The point being that wherever one side holds all the cards to institutionalize forms of prejudice, discrimination and antagonism in any particular society based on racial definitions of who are superior and those that are left to be classified as disadvantaged, then the controlling party are the ones who are engaging in racism.
A Black person who simply hates White people, in a society where that hatred has no power to be institutionalized, then he has absolutely no power to put White people into a position of disadvantage. If the tables were turned, and Blacks had that sort of control in a particular society, then it would be racism, because it's Black people who are calling the shots.
Anyone can be prejudiced and bigoted, but in this country, as long as White people are calling the shots, establishing standards and controlling our overall institutions, then whenever they engage in forms of prejudice, discrimination and antagonism, then only they can be classified as racist.
Also think about this, how many times have you heard women described as being "sexist" in this country?
Not many, right?
The same principle applies.
Response to MrScorpio (Reply #12)
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gcomeau
(5,764 posts)...but you appear to having difficulty with the meaning of the word. Nothing in your response in any way validated your initial claim that black people can't be racist.
Anyone, of any race, in any culture or society... can be racist. The balance of power or institutional structures in which they operate have precisely zero bearing on that determination.
"A Black person who simply hates White people..."
Is racist. If they hated "some white guys" they wouldn't be. If they hate "White people" They Are Racist By Definition.
MrScorpio
(73,772 posts)I'm assuming that you're a White person… Do you believe that any Non-White person, who is identical to yourself in socio-economic and educational status, they would receive exactly the same treatment, for better or worse, in all situations from this country's institutions, such as the police?
In America, which group dictates the more prevalent definition of privileged status and underprivileged status, such as a cultural ideal, based on race, Whites or Non-Whites?
Do you believe that White people in this country are affected by institutionalized racial prejudice, discrimination and antagonism from Non-White people to an equal extent, as Non-Whites are from Whites?
The thing is, if you think that a Non-White person would ever get any benefit from this country's level of institutionalized racial prejudice, discrimination and antagonism against Whites, of course, you can defined that as Racism… But where is this happening in America?
Racism is defined by contextual institutionalized racial prejudice, discrimination and antagonism. If Whites in this country are ever relegated to a socio-economic, political and cultural position of disadvantage based on race, as defined by standards that are created and enforced by Non-Whites, then I'll agree with you that Non-Whites are the racist ones…
But we're not at that point now, are we?
Do you believe that any Non-White person, who is identical to yourself in socio-economic and educational status, they would receive exactly the same treatment, for better or worse, in all situations from this country's institutions, such as the police?"
The evidence is pretty conclusive that they would not.
In America, which group dictates the more prevalent definition of privileged status and underprivileged status, such as a cultural ideal, based on race, Whites or Non-Whites?
Whites, obviously.
Do you believe that White people in this country are affected by institutionalized racial prejudice, discrimination and antagonism from Non-White people to an equal extent, as Non-Whites are from Whites?
Not even remotely.
None of which has anything to do with what the word "racism" means. Just as a refresher:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/racism
Nobody is disputing the idea that there are entrenched, institutionalized instances of racism across the country. Or that black people are victims of those institutionalized racist structures or that they were implemented by people who were white.
But racism operates on all scales, from the societal and the institutional to the individual and the personal. And I repeat, ANYONE can be racist.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Many sociologists define racism as others in this thread have defined it, racial bigotry with power attached to it. Why do you think the dictionary definition should be given more credibility than the definition given by social scientists?
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)...for purposes of speaking about how it operates on societal scales.
What was the OP talking about? Institutional level racism, or a question of whether an individual was racist?
What was the claim "black people can't be racist" talking about in that context?
I think we both know perfectly well.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Anyone can be bigoted and anyone can discriminate, but racism occurs when there is a difference in power. Just because the dictionary does not mention power does not mean power is not a necessary component of racism. Saying otherwise would be like saying a car does not require gasoline to run because the dictionary does not say it needs gasoline. The world is often far more complex than anything we can learn by reading the dictionary.
Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #112)
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1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that one of the most powerful tools/factors in maintain institutional structures is to control the words defining the structure ... and dictionaries serve just that function.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Seeing as racism IS A BELIEF.
Everyone has, at a minimum, no power and the ability to hold a belief. So everyone "has the power" to be racist.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)when blacks are more likely tohat's be criminalized than whites, for example. that's an institutional problem, not one involving individual beliefs.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Because "the issue" is that a claim was made that black people can't be racist. I'm pretty sure, at least last time I checked, that the set of "black people" is composed of a whole bunch of individuals. Additionally the entire subject of the OP was someone visiting an individual and wondering if that individual was racist. Making the entire topic of discussion about an individual question of racism.
So please do elaborate on exactly how individual racism is not the issue. I'm all ears.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)it has been explained numerous time (see: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=6290)
But you know better/more, so you are not listening or hearing the explanation. You are just arguing from your rightness.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Why don't you read your own link and pay particular attention to the "if you accept your terms" qualifier in it.
I am under no obligation to accept your re-definition of racism to exclude all individual forms of it for no apparent reason other than to allow you to say that members of certain races "can't be racist".
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)i.e,, accepting of advancing definitions as the study of a phenomena provides a better understanding of that phenomena (pick any field of study) ... until it requires something of them; then they are just fine with centuries old definitions (i.e., the conservative status quo).
I have wasted enough time attempting inviting you into the 21st century; however, you clearly prefer the 19th.
Peace.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Like I just said, you have provided no apparent justification for your redefinition of terms other than that it allows you to make a claim that suits you.
That is not in the service of "a better understanding" of anything.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)It is not me that has redefined the term(s) ... As you have been told, numerous times, the academics (i.e., sociologists) have, based on the on-going study of power dynamics.
Does that better/advanced understanding of racism serve me? Absolutely ... in the same way a better understanding of the Earth redefined the understanding that the Earth was spherical, rather than, flat.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Sociologists have *A* definition of racism that they apply to an understanding of the phenomena on an institutional/societal level. A definition I have not, I will point out, denied. They do not however claim it replaces and negates the definition of racism at the individual personal level when speaking of matters outside the scope of their field.
That's you.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Horse ... Water.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)
JustAnotherGen
(38,051 posts)GOTV in the midterms! 
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)just recognizing/acknowledging the futility of continuing the discussion with you ... You clearly wish to accept the definition(s) proffered by Etymologists (i.e., Dictionaries) over those of Socio-scientists.
I can't change that; nor, will I continue trying. 
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Since I already told you I don't reject the sociologists definition.
I just recognize it's one definition that applies on one scale (a scale the OP had nothing to do with). As opposed to your insistence that it be regarded as the *only* valid definition that applies universally.
You are the one rejecting the definitions of terms here. Not me.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #110)
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Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)As it seems the extent of your studies on racism goes no further than the dictionary it is not surprising that you are not familiar with the concept of racism, but I did not change the meaning of the word this is a concept that has been studied and understood for generations.
Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #121)
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M0rpheus
(885 posts)I see y'all coming in here with the definition like:
That's NOT what it says here!!!!11!!11ONE!
Yay! Reading is fundamental!
Have you read other works discussing the issue or is the dictionary the extent of your scholarly endeavors?
Why should the definition not change? There are other words that fill in that niche just fine (see prejudice and bigotry).
Did you know that the word "butt" was a unit of measurement for wine?
Who gave them the authority to change that definition?
Why is this a sore point for you? What's the point of arguing it?
Response to M0rpheus (Reply #125)
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M0rpheus
(885 posts)Throughout the history of the US, racism was always something more than the dictionary definition.
Webster is late to the party. I accept the expanded definition because I get to see it close up and personal.
Response to M0rpheus (Reply #128)
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Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)I will say that I don't agree with you on the blacks cannot be racist. I believe that there are individual blacks who are racists, just like there are individual whites who are racists. Most of those white racists have no more power to effect anything. Institutional power is a totally separate thing.
Besides that, I completely agree with you. Being pro-black is not being anti-white. You do not sound racist to me, no matter what the definition of racism that we use.
greiner3
(5,214 posts)I lived just south of Richmond VA and worked in a large factory setting.
There was a good mix of white/black and there was hatred and bigotry from both sides and little was concealed.
Anyone can hate and anyone can be bigoted.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)unless there is an institutional privilege attached to it.
Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #23)
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Maedhros
(10,007 posts)It can be useful to draw distinctions between "racism" and "predjudice" for the reasons he discusses.
Response to Maedhros (Reply #46)
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1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)those attempting to retain the/their privilege are not buying it.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)encounter these ideas as a white person. Fish and wet, or whatever the simile was. When you're not obviously being injured by institutionalized power structures, it's harder to see them in action. I thought it was all a bunch of 'hooey' before I finally saw it, not because I was trying to 'retain' my privilege, but simply because I couldn't even 'see' the privilege until enough of it was laid out before me in ways I could observe. and I still would be ignorant of the ideas of privilege if it hadn't been for people who WERE being hurt to take the time to patiently explain over and over in different ways until it finally clicked.
Getting past the 'layman' usage of 'racism' is one of the hardest parts for a lot of white people I've seen in white privilege diaries elsewhere. The notion that one can be, even in part, 'racist', without being a racial bigot, and having to work at seeing the pervasiveness of privilege and racial bias in culture takes a lot of work for us pasty folks who have decades of 'unlearning' to do.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)many that argue so vehemently against white privilege and the harm it causes; have no problem, seeing the harm of class privilege. They are two sides of the same coin.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)And I just noticed that the comment of yours I replied to was actually to a deleted comment, not to the one I read above it, heh.
Maybe class privilege can serve as a useful bridge concept to help more people start to understand. I know it's tiresome to have the same conversations over and over, but I think it does help to work to unravel the institutions of privilege, the more of those in the dominant power group who can come to understand, and even to understand how such power structures are not only toxic to those harmed most directly, but also to those who are privileged.
Thank you for helping to open the eyes of those who cannot yet see.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)as i've mentioned before, some don't understand what the term means or how it applies to current history and current reality. how can you ever have a conversation with people who have no ideas what you are talking about?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)One would think folks would pause and observe the field before jumping in. But nope ... "I is typing cuz I can ... and you can't stop me!"
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)i've studied racism for many years. i was a psychology major and an african-american studies minor. and i have to deal with it constantly, like most people of color. all the daily indignities like being questioned in an elevator in a building where i worked for three years. like being on a job and some punk kid errand boy questions me about my knowledge of the accounting system. sometimes people just need to shut up, read, learn and listen. there is something really creepy about insisting YOU have all the answers about a social ill that does not negatively or directly impact you.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Do you honestly believe that all the white sociologists recognize a difference between racism and racial bigotry solely so they can be racist towards people who are white like them?
Sorry but I have a degree in Sociology and I buy the sociologist's definition, I sure as hell am not buying what you are trying to sell however.
Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #56)
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Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Please keep in mind however racist and anti-semitic bigots don't last long around here so you might as well go back to Stormfront.
Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #64)
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Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Your first post was one of the most blatantly anti-semitic things I have seen posted on this site in some time. Your bigotry is not welcome here, go complain to your Nazi friends and leave us alone.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)The poster claimed that the entire field of Sociology has been taken over by Jews who hate white people. I wish I could say that I am exaggerating, but I am not he really did say that. After insisting that no sociologists are really white because they are all Jewish he then apparently discovered there actually are white sociologists but because many of them recognize what racism is he referred to them as "White Uncle Toms". There was a reason I called the guy a Nazi, he talked so much like one that I had no concerns about a jury hiding my post because the racism and anti-semitism in the post I responded to really did sound Nazi like.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Glad I decided to actually do some work ... at work.
Did you happen to catch the post count on that poster?
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)I am pretty sure it was the same person who made the other five posts in this thread before he got MIRTed however.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Think about that ...
I, the disempowered member of the community, but highly educated (including on this particular topic), don't get to define the words; but you do?
Yes.
Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #54)
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gcomeau
(5,764 posts)That is the precise definition of racism. Racially based bigotry. That's what the word means.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)ISMs possess an institutional/systemic power component that differentiates it from mere bigotry..
I realize how unsettling it must be to be used to, after centuries of being able to define stuff, and now being faced with others defining stuff ... but this is the world you now live in.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)And I was unaware that I had been around centuries, let alone spent them defining stuff... are you under the impression I'm some kind of amnesiac immortal?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and others, are talking about?
Here you use an institutional tool (e.g., the Oxford Dictionary) to that racism isn't institutional ... and that is to just be accepted!
Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #113)
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1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Really?
Really? Probably because the "way its always been" is what makes racism institutional/structural. To argue some racism is institutional, i.e., pervasive and systemically reinforcing; but other racism is not, i.e., non-pervasive(?) and/or non-systemically reinforcing(?), ignores the power dynamic that distinguishes between racism and "mere" bigotry.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)As opposed to what you're doing? Or wait, are sociologists not an institution?
Grow up.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the next step will either be, withdrawal, or attempting to understand. That, is your choice.
And no, sociologist STUDY institutions ... dictionaries take a snapshot of word meanings and rest there.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)There is nothing particularly difficult to comprehend about your insistence on only acknowledging racism that is in operation on a mass institutional level while refusing to admit the existence of the phenomena on an individual one... although blaming the dictionary for not going along with your application of your blinders is a little weird.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that's the weird thing about being the "other" ... being systemically disenfranchised allows one to recognize and, therefore, NOT be invested in the institution that oppresses them. And, dictionaries ARE institutional tools.
ETA: And for the record ... I do not believe you "understand".
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Point out any part of my response that did not accurately describe your position, and provide details as to how.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)First, he and I, and my wife, are white.
He's a "good christian" blah blah blah ... and in some off handed discussion, he said about blacks ... "they are more black than we are white".
That comment reminded me of a discussion I had with a close black friend years before. He explained to me how as a white guy, I was almost never reminded that I was white. At the time, I was one of 2 white guys on a basketball team where the 13 other guys were black.
I was one of the better players, and yet, some of the other guys would still talk me down. A white guy simply could not be "that good". Black was the default setting for a good player. It bugged me.
My friend told me, "that's how we feel all the time". We are never just one of the guys, we are always black. And we get reminded that we are black all the time.
I get the sense that your daughter's friend doesn't get this ... but she feels reminded that she's white, around you.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Last edited Thu Apr 3, 2014, 10:36 PM - Edit history (1)
But yes ... I suspect, the visitor to my home felt reminded that she was not the default setting in my home ... and it made her uncomfortable.
JustAnotherGen
(38,051 posts)
Bravo. That nails it.
Default Setting.
Dear DU - the default setting for everything in America is white. Everything.
The black American family home as I suspect the homes of other minorities are is not set to the default setting.
Deal with it.
Sincerely,
8th Grade Hair Flip and member in good standing of the order of sisters of the perpetually outraged
xoxoxox
PS
So sue me
rury
(1,021 posts)AAO
(3,300 posts)
zentrum
(9,870 posts)...if she has only books by white american or european authors on her shelves. Does she have only euro-white-american-centric art on the walls?
Kids today do listen to lots of music by black artists, but my point is, that most white homes are decked out in white culture. Has she ever noticed this? What is her opinion of that phenomenon or is it "invisible" to her?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)she is the societal default setting.
But again, if I asked her about books in her home, she would just laugh ... they don't have any! That's why she hung at our house for the past 7 years ... intellectual stimulation.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)A house without books? Might as well get rid of the walls and roof too!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But as I mentioned, her mother is a meth-head and her father believes his complete contribution to child rearing is paying the bills ... when he gets around to it. And she has 5 siblings, that she effectively has raised.
7962
(11,841 posts)Racism--"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."
Nowhere does it mention institutional power to systemically effect white folks. And where blacks are in charge of everything, they WOULD have the institutional power to affect whites.
None of this means YOU are a racist, I dont think you are. You're just mistaken about the racism.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)affect any white person's ability to get a job, education, a mortgage, to walk down the street or shop unmolested? It doesn't ... but consider ... the least empowered white person talking about "Black Devils" supports a system that makes it more difficult for Black folks to have any of those things.
That is what sets bigotry apart from racism.
7962
(11,841 posts)Stopping promotions, not hiring, favoritism, etc. And I'm sure Farrakhan has a great impact on whether or not any whites work for his organization. We see anyone talking about "black devils" or the like and he/she is generally and rightly condemned. 50 years ago? Not so much.
And you really think a white man can walk down any street he chooses to and be sure he'll be unmolested? Hell, I was asked why I was at a particular store in Montgomery AL, "because white people dont shop here". Should I not have felt uncomfortable?
I cant believe you dont think it can work both ways.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)its a system of culture/institutions that privileges one race over the other
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and even if you could would that be the rule or the exception.
Come on ... a white person being prevented from work for the NOI, equals a Black person being suspect when applying for any corporate job, any where in America?
Yes ... But I guess I should have said "Molested by establishment/institutional actors", i.e., law enforcement, taxi drivers, etc.
And how many times has that happened in your life? But more, did the person asking that question (if he/she was a store employee) act like they didn't want to take your money? Or, follow you around positive you were going to steal something.
I can't believe you think your rare event equals the (near) daily experience of others. IOWs, you can count the event, I can't count.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)No single racial or ethnic group forms a majority of California's population, making the state a minority-majority state. Non-Hispanic whites make up 40.1% of the population.[12] Spanish is the state's second most spoken language. Areas with especially large Spanish speaking populations include the Los Angeles metropolitan area, the California-Mexico border counties of San Diego and Imperial, and the San Joaquin Valley. Nearly 43% of California residents speak a language other than English at home, a proportion far higher than any other state.[13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California
Blacks are not the only minority in America. At 3, my grandson is of mixed race and although not of a Spanish or Central or South American ancestry, learning Spanish in day care.
Here in California, all of us, regardless of our own race, live together and work together in harmony. At least that is my experience with one exception when one of my Black neighbors was harassed by some anonymous person (probably not due to race because my neighborhood is very mixed racially).
If I focused my life on my own race as you admit to doing with yours, I would be very lonely out here in California and would even be estranged from members of my own family whom I love dearly.
Just saying. What a narrow view of life. Do African-Americans need a lift up thanks to institutional bias. Yes. But remember, the institutional bias hurts a lot of kids including some White kids.
You make your choices, and I'm sure there are people in California who try to distance themselves from people of other races, but most of us are content living in harmony and sharing our politics, our joys, our successes, our failures and our families without concern for race or sexual orientation. So much for bigotry.
Bigotry by any name practiced by anyone is bigotry.
7962
(11,841 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)And white people were never the majority in South Africa. Majority status has little to do with numbers but power and reinforcing structure.
I completely agree ... It seems where we part is that bigotry does not equal racism. No matter how bigoted that out lying Hispanic community member may be, he/she still will be unable to use his/her bigotry to systemically affect your life.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)prior positions:
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jul/04/local/la-me-new-council-20130705
Listed by name.
http://council.lacity.org/index.htm
From the point of view of race and ethnicity, power is shared pretty evenly in LA.
Spanish-speaking people may be under-represented (compared to their percentage of the population) in part because some are not citizens and don't vote.
Both my Congressman and my City Council representative are from Spanish-speaking families. They are admired by and receive the votes of people of all races.
Income differences are a bigger divider in LA. And of course income differences correlate to race. Overcome income disparity or at least make an attempt to do so and a lot of what appears to be racism will vanish.
Income disparity is a bigger problem than racism although where one is the other tags along. Two people of different races but approximately the same income level will more likely know each other and get along well than two people of decidedly different income levels.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)It depends a great deal on where you live in the city. The liberal west side, pretty cool. Other areas, not so much. When I moved there in 1979, there were no visible Hispanic politicians, despite the big numbers in the population. Tom Bradley was mayor for 20 years, he still had to deal with the racism of Darryl Gates and much of the LAPD.
I was there during the LA riots in 1992 and watched stores get torched all around me. Poverty and race are entwined in Los Angeles. I am white, and had a black girlfriend then, and the response to us was very different based on where we were.
In fact, I don't recognize the LA you claim to see.
Issues of race will not disappear because we don't talk about them, and pretend they aren't there.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I can think of similar statements from the jim crow south (recently re-visited by the ducky-guy).
M0rpheus
(885 posts)America can't seem to make up it's mind about what it wants from us.
Assuming you're the default, why would you have to focus on race at all? Unless there's some clapback regarding your race/ethnicity, it's not an issue for you. We're not so "lucky". We don't really have the option of race not being an issue because it's not us with the race problem.
Being Black in America comes with a ton of baggage:
We're dinged for "black on black crime" even though most crime is intra-racial.
We're branded as criminals and thugs when our crime rate is similar to other ethnicities.
We're jailed disproportionatly from whites for the same crimes.
We have considerably less wealth than the default population.
I could go on and on with this, but it's not necessary...
With Black pathologies in the media and as a part of the gestalt here in the US, why should we not focus on ourselves?
What's wrong with putting our well being in front of others? Being Pro-Black is not about the exclusion of others. It's about lifting us up, because NO ONE ELSE WILL.
If that's all it takes to be bigoted, then screw it, I'm your huckleberry.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Well ... there is no precedent for that in our 400 years of inter-racial relations. Our rejection of the codependent norm is unsettling for many.
7962
(11,841 posts)And my personal example was not a singular event. But it doesnt matter; all of this is straying from the original point: a black person CAN have a racist opinion just as a white person can, or an Asian.
Certainly there are many injustices against blacks going on today. Better than the "old days" but one is still too many.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)and he made a lot of sense. It's not a fringe concept.
OldRedneck
(1,397 posts)Guess that makes me an Old Redneck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)while I can appreciate the lyrics, country music just doesn't move me. 
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)My husband and I listen to jazz more than any other music, and I sang it at one time. But I also like opera and symphonic music. I don't just like jazz. And some of our great jazz musicians were white. Joe Zawinul, Dave Brubeck. I'm not sure how a person could limit him- herself to just Black music. Who thinks about the color of the musician's skin when listening to music?
But then, I am very near-sighted, so I miss a lot of visual stuff.
What a narrow life.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Jazz is my passion.
I can name problem 100 white jazz musicians in my library; but its about the roots.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)and horrible legacy of African-Americans in the US.
But the experiences at the roots of jazz are not just understandable and do not just reflect the conditions and sorrows of slavery, segregation and the Black experience in America. Others have suffered too and feel that jazz expresses the depth of their emotions.
Have you thought about the Irish? Has any people suffered at the hands of "the man" more than the Irish?
Conquered, killed in war, sent to the West Indies as slaves, left to die, starved.
Their land taken. Their means of growing food taken.
The title of King of Ireland was re-created in 1542 by Henry VIII, then King of England, of the Tudor dynasty. English rule of law was reinforced and expanded in Ireland during the latter part of the 16th century, leading to the Tudor conquest of Ireland. A near complete conquest was achieved by the turn of the 17th century, following the Nine Years' War and the Flight of the Earls.
This control was further consolidated during the wars and conflicts of the 17th century, which witnessed English and Scottish colonisation in the Plantations of Ireland, the Wars of the Three Kingdoms and the Williamite War. Irish losses during the Wars of the Three Kingdoms (which, in Ireland, included the Irish Confederacy and the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland) are estimated to include 20,000 battlefield casualties. 200,000 civilians are estimated to have died as a result of a combination of war-related famine, displacement, guerilla activity and pestilence over the duration of the war. A further 50,000[Note 1] were sent to slavery in the West Indies. Some historians estimate that as much as half of the pre-war population of Ireland may have died as a result of the conflict.[51]
. . . .
An extraordinary climatic shock known as the "Great Frost" struck Ireland and the rest of Europe between December 1739 and September 1741, after a decade of relatively mild winters. The winters destroyed stored crops of potatoes and other staples and the poor summers severely damaged harvests.[53] This resulted in the famine of 1740. An estimated 250,000 people (about one in eight of the population) died from the ensuing pestilence and disease.[54] The Irish government halted export of corn and kept the army in quarters but did little more.[54][55] Local gentry and charitable organisations provided relief but could do little to prevent the ensuing mortality.[54][55]
. . . .
The Great Famine of the 1840s caused the deaths of one million Irish people and over a million more emigrated to escape it.[62] By the end of the decade, half of all immigration to the United States was from Ireland. The period of civil unrest that followed until the end of the 19th century is referred to as the Land War. Mass emigration became deeply entrenched and the population continued to decline until the mid-20th century. Immediately prior to the famine the population was recorded as 8.2 million by the 1841 census.[63] The population has never returned to this level since.[64] The population continued to fall until 1961 and it was not until the 2006 census that the last county of Ireland (County Leitrim) to record a rise in population since 1841 did so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland
You understand that Ireland's great problem was that it was owned by the English who sucked out its innards for their use. When I lived in England some years ago, one of the worst insults was to call a person "Irish." That label was mostly applied to the alcoholics on the streets.
Of course, after the Great Famine of the 1840s, many Irish people emigrated to America. The Irish immigrants also left us a mournful, beautiful musical legacy. Music that expresses the simple joys but also the pain of life. It's no wonder if you read their story.
Remember how they were drafted into the US military to fight for the Union in the Civil War?
On March 3rd, 1863, Congress passed the Enrollment Act which required single men age 20 to 45 and married men up to age 35 to register for the draft. This act angered many whites, mainly Irish, who then living in northern states as immigrants signed as U.S. citizens were now expected to fight for the new nation, not realizing it too made the immigrants liable for the draft. It also add fuel to the fire when blacks, mostly freed slaves, were excluded from the draft and the Irish feared that freed slaves would migrate to the North and add further competition to the labor market. Many Irish saw this as a "rich man's war and a poor man's fight" since the policies of substitution and commutation were controversial practices that allowed drafted citizens to opt out of service by either furnishing a suitable substitute to take the place of the drafted, or paying $300. Both of these provisions were created with the intention of softening the effect of the draft on pacifists, the anti-draft movement, and the propertied classes. The result however was general public resentment of both policies.
A few days after the Enrollment Act was passed, in March 6, 1863, the Detroit Race Riot of 1863 erupted in Detroit, Michigan, as Irish rioted for days over the draft as well as targeting against the blacks. Although not as destructive, the fear was about to come 4 months later. In July 13-16, as the first draft were to be held in New York City, the Irish then launched the 1863 New York City draft riots. Stores were looted and newspaper buildings that supported the Union were ransacked and burned to the ground. The rioters then targeted blacks as many saw the American Civil War as a war to free the slaves and blamed them for the draft as well as the war. Many blacks were caught by the mob, stabbed, and lynched as a result. When the draft riots started, the New York State Militia was absent because they were sent to assist Union troops in Pennsylvania, thus leaving the New York City Police Department the only force to put down the riot.
The police were unable to handle a crowd that has 10x more population than that and the rioting continued on and on. Two days later, word came to announced that the draft had been suspended. Federal troops returning from the Battle of Gettysburg were sent to the city to quell down the riot and peace was finally restored in the streets of New York City over a day later. Over 121 people died in the draft riots in New York City. The 1863 New York City Draft riots were the largest civil insurrection in American history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Americans_in_the_American_Civil_War
Irish casualties in the Civil War
Killed and Died of Wounds
63rd New York Infantry 156
69th New York Infantry 259
88th New York Infantry 151
28th Massachusetts Infantry 250
116th Pennsylvania Infantry 145
Total (during the war) 961
The Irish Brigade lost over 4,000 men in killed and wounded; it being more men than ever belonged to the brigade at any one time. With the exception of the Twenty-eighth Massachusetts, the regiments were small. At the start they were not recruited to the maximum, but left New York with about 800 men each. The three New York regiments became so reduced in numbers that, at Gettysburg, they were consolidated into two companies each; the One Hundred and Sixteenth Pennsylvania had been consolidated into four companies.
http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/patrickroberts/the-irish-in-the-american-civil-war-150000-in-union-army-25000-in-confederate-119724549-238079561.html
And I don't need to mention the Jews who were persecuted for centuries in Europe and then imprisoned and massacred by the NAZIs.
So lots of people have reason to understand and feel the roots of jazz. I majored in music as an undergrad and was interested in music composition. By nature, I am a very happy person, I think. But when, in my 20s, I sat down to improvise at the piano, all of my tunes were so sad. I wondered why. It has occurred to me that the pain and sorrow and injustices that our ancestors experienced are born within us. Maybe it is in our genetic fabric.
So -- the roots -- the suffering, the slavery, the lost homes -- those are the legacies of many Americans, not just African-Americans.
By the way, I would define a racist as someone who is overly conscious of race, someone who views life through the prism of race.
If a person wants to build a racial or religious ghetto for himself, that is his or her choice. But that person should not accuse those who try to reach across to people of other races as being racist.
The Civil Rights Movement was fought for racial equality and integration. Martin Luther King fought for integration and inclusion. People who separate themselves from others by race are willfully refusing to live King's dream.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Thats as far as i go. I do like the costumes.
Laughing Mirror
(4,185 posts)That's what (some) music can do.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Loretta too. They make me feel things.
BeyondGeography
(41,101 posts)and Muddy Waters used to include a lot of his country waltzes in his repertoire. Country was big crossover music back in the days when popular music was developing. Interesting exploration of all that in Elijah Wald's book on Robert Johnson.
NBachers
(19,438 posts)alc
(1,151 posts)Unfortunatly the word has lost meaning.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)through organizational, institutional, cultural and interpersonal means.
Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #38)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Clearly, there is an ongoing historical institutional bias against black people in America that is distinct from individual feelings of animosity toward members of another race.
How should we talk about that?
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #38)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Why is it important to erase the distinction between "racism" and "bigotry/predjudice?"
Clearly, there is an ongoing historical institutional bias against black people in America that is distinct from individual feelings of animosity toward members of another race.
How should we talk about that?
Response to Maedhros (Reply #132)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)As I mentioned upthread, Thom Hartmann did an entire radio installment on just this topic and it made complete sense to me.
What's wrong with accepting the premise for the purposes of discussion?
Enrique
(27,461 posts)one of which is synonymous with bigotry. That is the sense in which this young woman was using the word.
The talk about institutional racism is extremely important, but that is not the only meaning of that word.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I suspect that people of color have always, and continue to know its meaning ... just as all other victims of "ISMs" (including classism) know what the words means, despite the dominant sub-populations attempts to define/redefine them.
Blanks
(4,835 posts)I can see where you're coming from, but racism simply defined is:
rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun
noun: racism
1.
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
There is 'institutional racism' and that's what you're using as the overall definition of racism.
I agree with your premise that it isn't racist to surround yourself with the cultural items associated with your own particular race, but minorities can be racist despite an inability to wield the authority to 'punish' members of another race.
It's an attitude toward others and not necessarily an action.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)@ how many white people are telling you what "racism" means in this thread.
I wonder how many pictures by African American artists are on her walls. If she has pictures of religious people (such as Jesus) who were in fact people of color, are they depicted as they were, or do they look white?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Last edited Thu Apr 3, 2014, 10:33 PM - Edit history (1)
But how does one suggest to a fish that water is toxic to non-fish?
But what sparked this OP had nothing to do with race or racism ... it was the thought that one can be for something without even mentioning the not-something ... I can be supportive of the Democratic Party without being anti-progressive; I can be progressive without being anti-Democratic Party.
If my political beliefs/positions are truly important to me and I believe them valid/legitimate, I do not need to spend any energy taking swipes at those that believe differently.
7962
(11,841 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)merriam webster or some other online dictionary and finding a simplistic definition presented by some random person from fifty or a hundred years ago trumps any other explanation.
The problem is that so many words have far more nuanced and complex meanings when used to actually discuss a complex world, but that most dictionaries are meant to provide a simplified and 'easy' way to think about a topic.
Racism is barely touched on in American public schools, and is almost always simply conflated with racial bigotry. It's the rare classroom that even touches upon 'redlining' or Levittown or any other practice of more continuously ongoing racism. So people come into discussions with their 5th grade definition of 'racism', and feel righteous when they can find a dictionary definition that agrees with that simplistic understanding.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)it opens the door to discussion and, possible, understanding.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I love this girl like a play cousin. She's bright and a survivor. She's the daughter of a meth-head mother and a "I pay the bills (when I get around to it), what else do you want of me" father.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)and that pro-black and anti-white are not the same thing.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'll have to remember this for the future.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)All of the artwork on my walls and tables in our home have a White/European-American theme (including a painting of the Christ and the Last Supper, wherein the Christ and the Disciples are distinctly European); the vast majority of the books on the shelves of our library are by, or about White people; the vast majority of the music to be heard in our home is by White artists; I am active in several volunteer organizations, but I spend most of my volunteer time and energy working with those that work with White youth; I am well versed in several topics (American/World history, Politics, Economics) and am able to speak intelligently about how those topics relate to/effect White.
The person that informed me of the other person's impression of me is a young black female (my daughter's best friend) and she wanted to ask me if I was, in fact, a racist. After taking her through a discussion of how White folks CAN BE, and some are, prejudiced or bigoted; we CANNOT BE racist, as most of us do not have the institutional power to systemically effect black folks.
So then, she asked me whether I am anti-black (which told me she was able to understand the racism discussion).
My answer to her was, "No, I am not anti-black; but I AM PRO-WHITE. The two concepts are very different.
This caused her some discomfort, until I asked her: whether she felt I had ever mistreated her or heard of me talking negatively about, or mistreating, any black folks?
She responded, "To be honest Mr. 1SBM, I have never heard you be critical of black people, as black people." Then, after some thought, she stated that she barely recalled me ever talking about black people, good or bad. And the occasions that she did recall, I talked about how that particular person talked about racial matters.
Then I asked her to think about how I talk about Black folks. Her response was she had never heard me say anything negative about Black people ... only positive and encouraging things
I told her, "See, I do not define myself, or my condition, relative to black folks, so I have no reason to talk them down. It doesn't uplift me, to dwell in negativity. However, I do define myself and condition, relative to the White community; therefore, (the goal/intent of) my every action is to uplift the White community, and therefore, myself."
Is the person stating that racist or not?
Most White people, by the way, do not have the "institutional power to systemically effect black folks." As a group, White people may have some power of that sort, but in general, the systematic effects on black folks are due to historic events and the conditions that history has placed on all of us, white and black, and on a segment of our population that has power and money and the ability influence opinion and policy. Most white people have very little of that power and money.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)As a NA, if I hated African Americans and threw my lot in with racists to cause systematic harm to African Americans as a group, that would make me extremely racist, as I would not only be adding to the weight of the racists that are already present, but giving them cover.
I agree that it would be pretty difficult for you to be racist toward white people, as that requires institutional power to cause harm to a large number of people, but we can still be racist toward one another by helping those that traditionally wielded institutional power strike at another racial minority.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Bigotry is racism - power.
Also, one does not have to be of a different race to be racist. Clarence Thomas has made a lot of racist comments against his own race.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)MrScorpio
(73,772 posts)Had to take a nap, and the place goes nuts.
Great work, my brother. You got their attention!
MADem
(135,425 posts)I wonder if that same person strutted into some Japanese person's house, and saw tatami mats and classical woodblocks and artwork that looked like this,
on the walls, would they accuse those folks of being racist?
I think, if you know what's good for you, that you'd best just get correct and modify your personal tastes to suit the """"majority!!!""""" 
Of course, it's debatable these days if you should go for this majority when picking out your wall hangings
Or this one.....
We live in an ever-shifting demographic landscape, after all! 
You don't wanna get on the wrong side of the """"majority!"""""
And what nerve you have, decorating your own damn home to suit your own damn tastes! That should never be allowed!!! Getting a bit full of yourself, are you....?
Not Sure
(735 posts)Does it become offensive or is is perfectly okay to be "not anti-black; but I am PRO-WHITE" or the goal of "my every action is to uplift the White community, and therefore, myself"?
I'm 40 and white and was brought up to be color blind as far as skin color is concerned. I don't participate in discriminating against people based on their skin color so I just don't get it. I understand and recognize that institutional racism and racial bigotry exist. But neither compute with me, and frankly, neither does your OP.
MrScorpio
(73,772 posts)Or should I do the honors?
JustAnotherGen
(38,051 posts)
MrScorpio
(73,772 posts)Simply dynamite.
JustAnotherGen
(38,051 posts)
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Because there is not racial equality in this world and whites have throughout our nation's history have had advantages that blacks do not have, uplifting the black community brings them closer to the place where whites already are and thus brings us closer to racial equality. Uplifting the white community on the other hand means giving the advantaged group an even greater advantage and creates more inequality.
If the goal is racial equality then uplifting the black community moves us closer to racial equality while uplifting the white community moves us further away from racial equality, that is the difference.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts) MrScorpio
(73,772 posts)M0rpheus
(885 posts)
Number23
(24,544 posts)Absolutely amazing. Thanks for that.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)you, at least, educated a few people on here about the difference between bigotry and racism and the power dynamic behind both. But from reading some of these responses, entitlement and willful ignorance go hand in hand. "Bitter fruit" needs no explaining to me.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)how does one explain to a fish that its life sustaining environment, i.e., water, is toxic to non-fish?
JustAnotherGen
(38,051 posts)1Strong did a good job - but they can't "see" it. Me? I've given up in DU. Freshwest, BainsBane, MADem, a hand full of others - they "get" it.
That's it. This is why when folks post things about Two Teams at DU and asking us which side we are on - I answer neither. They aren't tall enough to be my ride.
Off to HOF!
JustAnotherGen
(38,051 posts)Being black and having pictures and artwork on your walls by and of black people makes one racist!
Obviously people who have never been in a black American's home! 
My husband must be racist too since he bought my second anniversary card online (he used our "family" email so I just saw this though it's not until the 15th) from an artist/card maker that was able to supply artwork of a white man and a black woman.
I know I'm not helping 1Strong - I never really do!
My smart assery and snark knows no bounds. But I can't wait until my anniversary so I can share this with him and the white guy does his Eddie Murphy impression of Murphy's white guy impression.
Holy shit balls!
IronLionZion
(51,267 posts)because they never expect to be challenged. White liberals are so deathly afraid of being exposed for their own prejudiced views that it ruins them. Conservatives don't share that fear.
Sigh, I probably shouldn't be too hard on white liberals since they usually have good intentions, and conservatives don't. I'll continue to challenge individuals though. I just hate the condescending attitude of white intellectual supremacy promoted by some. Its like "white-splaining", instead of "man-splaining" to women. Its the prejudiced assumption that the person you are speaking to must be less intelligent or less spiritually enlightened. This is more to do with the pious hippies in my life rather than members of this forum.
I appreciate what you wrote. Especially the last paragraph. I feel the same way about the Indian-American community and things get very interesting right here on DU in any discussions involving IT jobs or visas, which have jack shit to do with Indian-American US citizens like me, yet can not be separated in the minds of some otherwise well-meaning liberal DUers.
Stay strong!
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)You handled it well! Sounds like she may have learned something!
Lamonte
(85 posts)A friend of mine said something to me one night in 1961 that struck me as profound. He looked at s fellow that just entered the bar. He said, "look at his necktie, I hate him."
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I like neck ties.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and so do I ... I wear one everyday to work. I have 60+ ties in my closet. Whenever I buy a suit for work, I buy 3 ties.
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)You said she was your daughter's friend...I'm guessing she was maybe a teenager who didn't know any better?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)she is 18 and just starting to make sense of this world. But she was looking for my reaction to her telling me a third person (the visitor) had told her that they thought I am racist.
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)that's what I get for trying to speed-read everything...
The Traveler
(5,632 posts)I first want to state that I think you explained your position on the difference between "racism" and "bigotry" quite clearly. If one were to accept your definitions of the terms, then your point is fairly well established ... and indeed at this point in time it is difficult, if not impossible, for a black person to practice racism in this country due to the relative shortage of institutional power.
Your problem is that your signal will get lost in the noise because you are, in essence, redefining the term "racism". You can argue that dictionary definitions are inadequate or incorrect, but when communicating with the average person who has not studied the material with which you are so familiar that argument will be ineffective. Your point will get lost in the noise as people respond from the conceptual space defined by the conventional definition of the term.
While the extension of the definition may be quite accepted and broadly understood in the fields of sociological study, application of that definition in discourse with lay people will merely create confusion. (I think this thread kinda demonstrates my point.) We need another term to advance this argument in discussion with our peers.
Just my take on it ... but I now understand clearly the basis for the statements I sometimes hear about the impossibility of reverse racism in America. And for that, this long haired redneck thanks you.
Trav
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Last edited Fri Apr 4, 2014, 08:04 PM - Edit history (1)
The solution for this hypothetical "average person" is to open himself to new ideas, read and attempt to comprehend what 1SBM is saying, rather than reject it out-of-hand because it's a new way of thinking about the subject.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)"I have the absolute RIGHT to be heard on matters of race ... because I'm white, er ... right, and society tells me so."
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)"Don't worry, fellow White Guy. We've been heard PLENTY. Probably too much."
Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #149)
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JustAnotherGen
(38,051 posts)Don't tell us to shut up (happens all the time at DU) when explaining being the other in a white country.
We've always given respect - for 100 years our lives depended on it.
But not anymore.
Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #165)
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M0rpheus
(885 posts)
Enjoy your stay... Er, day!
Response to M0rpheus (Reply #170)
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1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I turn my back to actually do some work and I miss stuff. That's it ... I'ma quit my job and post on-line all day long.
What did I miss ... judging for JAG's response, it must have been a good one.
JustAnotherGen
(38,051 posts)From a nobody! Two message poster!
M0rpheus
(885 posts)With his own spin about "rights" to say what they want to say, whenever they want to say it.
Like JAG said... Nothing, from a nobody.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)because of course, his uninformed opinion is equal the academic research and my lived experience.
The Traveler
(5,632 posts)But it does little to improve your ability to successfully transmit the message.
Here's the problem ... and I provide a perfect example. (This is why I am appreciative of the OP ... for whatever reason it helped me see a point I had been unable to quite connect with before.) You say "racism". I THINK I know the agreed upon meaning of that word, but I am actually in a different conceptual space ... a conceptual space that does not include the "institutional power" aspect. We are already mis-communicating.
So when you say "a black person cannot be racist", or something similar, I completely miss the point. (And I have!) On surface inspection the statement seems irrational to me. I leap to a conclusion made inevitable by the definition of the word as I have employed it over the years, a word consistent with dictionaries. You see, I am regarding the term as being descriptive of an individual's character. 1SBM is using it in a more technical sense as being descriptive of the behavior of SYSTEMS.
For what ever reason, I had never quite made the connection to the institutional power aspect of the term as used in this context. (I'm dense sometimes.) So I think we're talking about something else entirely. This OP actually gave me an "Ah Hah!" moment. Suddenly, I get it, the expanded definition of the word. And I find myself forced to agree with the statement. (Indeed, I find the conclusion itself non-controversial. All you have to do is look at the statistics of our criminal justice system to see the racial bias of that outcomes of that system ... institutional power run amok, in my view.)
Like I said, I'm dense some times. But I'm not THAT dense.
Anyway, I appreciate the topic and resultant conversation.
Cheers,
Trav
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Enjoy the weekend!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the more we LISTEN (to what is being said, even when we disagree, as Traveler got to the point of doing), the more we iron out points of misunderstanding.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)I was using "talk about" in the sense of "have a conversation", of which listening is the primary component.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)however, I've noticed that listening is not a big part of these discussions.
The Traveler
(5,632 posts)And you, also. See ya 'round the virtual neighborhood.
Trav
Bok_Tukalo
(4,540 posts)You are not required to accept something new and not doing so doesn't mean you aren't open to new ideas.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Like the Climate Change "Debate."
Bok_Tukalo
(4,540 posts)Not sure how. Explain it to me. I am open to new ideas.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and there are ideas. Some, particularly those that have been the subject of academic study, we reject at our own peril.
Response to The Traveler (Reply #131)
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1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)So let me summarize your very cogent point, (and you will correct me if I've the wrong take away) ...
The fish can't hear me because the water is in their ears!
IOWs, people are resistant to this more accurate definition because it requires taking a second look at that which sustains them.
The Traveler
(5,632 posts)I think the problem is that they already HAVE a definition in mind. You have to REPLACE that definition, and that takes time and exposure. It just does. We're dealing with the limitations of human cognition here ... and few habits run deeper than habits of linguistic use.
The idea itself is likely to run into resistance with certain people, of course. Other more accessible minds will resist because they THINK they know what you are talking about, when actually they don't, and so they begin their argument from a completely different (and in context incorrect) premise. Agreement upon terms is vital to discussion.
I'm reminded of a statement by Niklaus Wirth, a computer scientist. He pointed out that the only thing completely under the control of a programmer is the nomenclature devised to describe a problem, and specify its solution. I think the principle applies in other arenas.
Just my take on it ... but in any case, I do really appreciate your taking the time to express the point in a manner which finally penetrated my sometimes thick skull.
Trav
eppur_se_muova
(41,938 posts)and no one calls me a racist for it.
I can't even say they're mostly books on European history or languages, where you might expect the authors to be white.
But reverse the situation, and suddenly it excites suspicion of racism ... ?
(I realize the situation is far from symmetric, but I find the "logic" curious.)
Response to eppur_se_muova (Reply #134)
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arcane1
(38,613 posts)Response to arcane1 (Reply #166)
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eppur_se_muova
(41,938 posts)Seriously, I don't usually know or care if the author is white or "otherwise". Facts are facts, and have no color. If opinions are affected by the author's color, the author will usually be pretty open about that -- nor does it somehow disqualify those opinions. It may imbue them with special significance.
If someone had, say, grown up in Africa or the Caribbean, I wouldn't be remotely surprised to see a shelf full of books by black authors. And if I walked into an American home and saw large number of books by black authors, I would just think this reflected their owner's background, and not jump to any stronger conclusion than that. Taking an interest in issues that are affected by race doesn't make you a racist, particularly when society doesn't give you the option of ignoring racial issues.
As for sacrilege ... I don't regard the Bible as a factual document, so I don't care if JC & the boys were painted as kumquats.
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)If your race is the same race as the dominant race within a country, and you believe in the superiority of that race, wouldn't you be a racist? So that an Asian in Asia or a black person in Africa could be a racist?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but for the globalism of this day and the colonialism of the "past."
There is no space where Black folks or Native Americans or Hispanics (even in Mexico/Central and South America) are the dominant race ... there are plenty of places where POC are the numerically superior peoples; but numbers, rarely equals dominance.
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)Botswana
Since the mid-1990s the central government of Botswana has been trying to move Bushmen out of the Central Kalahari Game Reserve even though the national constitution guarantees the Bushmen the right to live there in perpetuity. As of October 2005, the government has resumed its policy of forcing all Bushmen off their lands in the game reserve using armed police and threats of violence or death.[1] Many of the involuntarily displaced Bushmen live in squalid resettlement camps and some have resorted to prostitution and alcoholism. About 250 others remain in the game reserve or have surreptitiously returned to the Kalahari to resume their independent lifestyles.[2]
"How can you have Stone Age creatures continue to exist in the age of computers?" asked Botswana's president Festus Mogae.[3] A report released by the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination condemns Botswana's treatment of the 'Bushmen' as racist.
Republic of the Congo
In the Republic of Congo, where Pygmies make up 2% of the population, many Pygmies live as slaves to Bantu masters. The nation is deeply stratified between these two major ethnic groups. The Pygmy slaves belong from birth to their Bantu masters in a relationship that the Bantus call a time-honored tradition. Even though the Pygmies are responsible for much of the hunting, fishing and manual labor in jungle villages, Pygmies and Bantus alike say Pygmies are often paid at the master's whim; in cigarettes, used clothing, or even nothing at all. As a result of pressure from UNICEF and human-rights activists, a law that would grant special protections to the Pygmy people is awaiting a vote by the Congo parliament.[
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)as Botswana and RoC are Black run nations affecting other Black people; but not to advance white supremacy/superiority. If Botswana were "evicting" the Bushman for the purpose of turning it over to Europeans, or if RoC were enslaving Pygmies and selling them off to Europeans, that would be racist acts.
What were finding here is Tribalism.
JustAnotherGen
(38,051 posts)About Hutus, Tutsis and Twas . . .
But let's face facts - even in that instance Europeans ramped that shit up. They took the tribal out, put the race card in the deck, and kaboom! Genocide.
JustAnotherGen
(38,051 posts)When viewing 1strong's o.p.
The majority (there are very few of us at DU) of black DUers are black Americans.
When we speak of racism - we are talking about the mess the poor DeBlasio 
was handed in NYC.
He gets it - but he has black children.
Maybe the Mayor's heart goes out to those folks in Africa - who knows? But he knows America better start dealing with the new Jim Crow.
His actions show it.
Eh? Maybe the racism we live with in America isn't as bad as it is in Africa so we should just eat our peas and accept it? I mean it's not like we are being hacked and raped to death by Hutus so we should just be happy that it's ONLY walking, shopping, driving - hell - breathing while black in America?
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)except that his wife is black and he has mixed race children, so I don't know what you're getting at there.
But as to your last paragraph -- no, I'm not saying any such thing. I'm just trying to understand SBM's definition of racism.
JustAnotherGen
(38,051 posts)Its standard operating procedure in America for black men. He has had to deal with a policy imposed by white Americans on black Americans in the largest City in America - in NY state - not the South.
1Strong so far as I know can't comprehend the experience of black Africans.
I can't either. Trying to get at the definition of a black American man by bringing up folks in Africa makes no sense.
He's a black man in the South West who shared an experience with a white American teenager. She said he was racist.
And some of my experiences with black Africans is that they don't view the descendents of slaves in America as the same as them. Ghana, South Africa, Rwanda and Senegal where we're they hailed from.
It was my dorm mate Bernadette (from South Africa) that told me I smelled like a dog when I got out of the shower. She didn't realize was black - but almost 25 years ago a young black woman from South Africa wasn't being racist. She'd never been around a Caucasian hair type freshly shampooed and it can be a nauseating smell. I mean - I felt badly but that's very minor compared to having your mother called a n*gger lover on the playground by a white kid.
DocMac
(1,628 posts)When you joined, we had a slight disagreement. We were discussing Eric Cantor and my disgust of him. You tried to talk about compromise. I wonder how you feel about Cantor today?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)as the person in once met AND for his politics. But that doesn't not negate my belief that in order to govern in this shared governance, compromise is necessary.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)But to me, racism means you believe another race is inferior to yours in intelligence, culturally, whatever. A lot of people fear what they don't know, so they "hate" it. Once it becomes a known entity, they no longer fear it, but they may still hate it as a sociallly inferior race. That is the racial factor that has hung over this country for so long. Too many people still think blacks are inferior. It's not just a fear of a different an not understood culture, but they really feel they are inferior to whites.
If, as a black, you don't think whites are inferior to blacks, just a different culture, then I don't see racism in that.
As a matter of fact, I've never known a black who thought whites were inferior. They just didn't always appreciate their culture.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I will say I rarely think about white people, as white people, except when I feel the need to defend myself against a racist.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Last edited Sat Apr 5, 2014, 04:55 PM - Edit history (1)
It's hard to imagine why so many people do. But as a young woman out of high school, I took a job in the bay area (Cali) that had all kinds of races and genders and ages...we were a mixed bag, so many of my first friends away from home were mulato, black, portugese, filipino, hispanic, asian, dutch, gay, lesbian and even a few straight whites like me. Some were adults and some were young. I think that is the way all young people should grow up. Exposed to everything in a situation where cliques are not encouraged. Cliques were popular at school, but at work they just never happened. And maybe if all schools were so mixed, we would eventually overcome racism. We just all got along and many people made close friendships. I had such a mixed bag of friends, there was no majority...we were all about equal. That was one of the best times of my life and it changed me in a good way, because I grew up in a small rural Oregon town and there were no mixed races there or gays (unless they were closeted). Only whites. I didn't grow up with any prejudices, but I was not as comfortable with other races right away. I wasn't used t them. But after working while them for awhile, they were like anyone else.
BumRushDaShow
(169,727 posts)Sounds like my spot - 3 huge bookshelves full of African and African-descended authors and scholars. Paintings, art, music... Some of it passed down to me that I actually grew up with as a child.
To your discussion, as an example of disparate worldview, there have been thousands and thousands of Irish-descended Americans who proudly hung a replica of the official portrait of JFK in their homes, but if an AA does they same with a portrait of President Obama, the freak-out commences. We have heard the nonsensical arguments about "balkanization", and "hyphenated-Americans" (ironically, a term that itself is hyphenated).
I was always taught that "racism" was prejudice/bigotry against a certain racial group with the power to enforce discriminative actions that negatively impact that racial group.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I have a signed copy of Baldwin's Go Tell It on the Mountain. (Mom spend time in NYC in the 50s and hung out with "a crowd."
BumRushDaShow
(169,727 posts)by Lerone Bennett, Jr - and my sister actually met him some time ago and told me she mentioned how we had his book in the household when we were growing up and he was surprised, delighted, and humbled by it (we are in our 50s). I believe he is still releasing updated versions of it. My parents were in one of the "Book of the Month" clubs in the '60s and a number of these books were actually offered as part of that (that's how they got "The Autobiography of Malcolm X" and "Soul on Ice" when they first released).
You are fortunate to have that signed Baldwin! I can imagine the folks who "hung out with the crowd" back in the '50s. Alot of cultural innovation going on there not unlike in the 20s!
My Dad was into jazz in the '50s actually brought his portable reel-to-reel to tape some gigs when various artists were in town (I remember when I was little that he had a couple reel-to-reel tapes of bluesmen). We had one of Miriam Makeba's earliest albums where I first heard her "Click Song" & "Pata Pata" - my intro to the Xhosa language. As a child, I would just sit there transfixed listening to her pronounce the clicks and sing. My sisters and I were always "hits" when bringing in stuff during "Negro/Black History Week" for show and tell.
I was honored to meet Dr. Ivan Van Sertima a little over 20 years ago (before he died) at a lecture that he gave and had him sign my copy of his "Nile Valley Civilizations". My mom had him sign her 1st edition hard cover of "They Came Before Columbus". What was funny was that I told him that we had every single one of his books and I started naming them off - including ones that he forgot about. lol
My father passed 40 years ago this year but I tell my Mom that the 2 of them were just "quiet radicals" (and my Mom will say - hee hee hee).
As a side note, as yesterday was the 46th anniversary of Dr. King's assassination, I was in 1st grade when that happened and I remember the school having a special assembly in honor of his life. And since the school really had nothing to use to honor him, that fell to my household, where my Mom had actually purchased a print from neighbor whose niece had created a multi-panel series of silk-screened images from the Civil Rights movement since the '50s. The framed print that she had purchased had a historical vignette printed on the back summarizing the Montgomery bus boycott spearheaded by Rosa Parks and segued into the "current", with MLK and others continuing the struggle. And the print itself had an abstract screened image of MLK and I think Ralph Abernathy, front and center, with abstract images around them of dogs attacking a group of people and other images of women standing or kneeling. This framed print ended up on on an easel at the center of the stage in the school auditorium, with a black sash draped around the top and sides.
No matter the controversy about the memorial, the fact that one of MLK does now exist on the National Mall, is a testament to the struggle and passing on the history to the next generation!
stonecutter357
(13,045 posts) 
TNNurse
(7,540 posts)And had not had enough life lessons. I think you gave her a good one.
I am pretty simple. I am comfortable with judging people "not by the color of their skin, but the content of their character".
I do admit that as white freckled American, I do use the phrase "white trash" on occasion, but it is their behavior that makes me use it. Maybe I should just switch to trash.
JustAnotherGen
(38,051 posts) That's a word used towards my mother - for marrying a black man.
I don't use that - hillbilly - yes. But my Irish ancestors were founders of West VA. Those people then moved out to Colorado. I wear my mountain roots as proudly as I do my French, German, and black Ancestry.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You're welcome America.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)Well done.
MrScorpio
(73,772 posts)Black people: Let's throw our own party!
White person: Hey! You didn't invite any white people! That's racist!
http://abaldwin360.tumblr.com/post/82000995860/white-person-sorry-black-people-you-cant-come
I read that and I instantly thought of this thread
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but a better summation would be:
Black people:
White person: Hey! You didn't invite any white people! That's racist!
I'm sure you will pick up on the differences in statements.
MrScorpio
(73,772 posts)JustAnotherGen
(38,051 posts)By both you and MrScorpio.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Nah, not if you dont have the societal and institutional power behind you to enforce your racism, but some white folks have to believe this to justify their own racism.
Any white person who insists non whites can be racists in USA is having race issues somewhere.
I know just about nothing about what it is to be anything other than white since I am white, but what I do know is I live in America and i have been given every advantage, every privilege imaginable, I know that every door is opened for me before I get there, etc.
Now, if I am poor and white, not so much as the Oligarchs hate poor people almost as much as they hate Black people.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)(well, not really) How some will acknowledge that racism is a systemic power dynamic thing, where "Individualized racism" acts to support the systemic power dynamic; then attempt to have a disempowered group, somehow, able act in a way that oppresses white folks ... a systemic power dynamic that doesn't exist anywhere in America, let alone the world.