The tone argument

[gollygee]

I'm copying and pasting something I put in HOF, because I think it's relevant here too:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5534368

It's funny how when it isn't about feminism, the same people who throw out the tone argument are the ones having it used against them. I don't really have anything else to say, just that I find the responses to complaints about tone interesting when I think about this in a more big picture way - about how the tone argument is used in general and not just about the issue of vaccinations.

I should post this in the African American group too, because they also get slammed about their tone, specifically that "privilege" is not a helpful way of wording things and they should only talk about racism in a way that makes white people feel good.

(Discloser: my kids are fully vaccinated.)

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

1. As someone who has brought up 'tone', I would like to point out

that I have never asked people to speak in a way that 'makes white people feel good' or 'makes men feel good' or any other such notion. Merely that I have learned from communication classes that if you actually have a message you want to transmit, you need to transmit it in a way that it can be understood by the audience to whom you are trying to transmit it. Otherwise you risk simply having your message resisted or ignored.

Anyone is free to use any 'tone' they want. But it is one factor among many that will affect how well your message actually succeeds in being transmitted to those with whom you are supposedly trying to converse. Which is why in classrooms you generally see only a specific range of 'tones'. The point of the classroom is to transmit information in a way that it is most likely to be understood and accepted.

You can say 'this is a blog, not a classroom' or 'it's not my job to educate anyone'. Both are certainly true. It's unfair to expect the oppressed to teach the oppressors. But unless they do, it's likely that no one else will. Somebody's got to be the teacher for anything to change, and the people who will benefit the most directly from that change are those with the most reason to want that change to occur. It's not fair, but what matters more - actually creating change, or 'fairness in who ends up shouldering most of the work in creating change'?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

2. " ... you need to transmit it in a way that it can be understood by the audience ..."

therein lies the problem because the truth hurts and they get their feelings hurt when they hear the truth, no matter the tone.

One side is allowed to make the most snide, condescending, dismissive, offensive, presumptuous remarks whereby there is hardly anyway to reply without them being shown that they have made an ass out of themselves.

Then they are embarrassed that their ass is showing.

Not.our. fault.

they exposed their own ass.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

3. Yup, but they're the ones who need to learn, too.

You can understand what they're saying just fine, even if it's not worth reading.

And the audience isn't a uniform mass. Some are around specifically to troll, and you'll never get through to them, no matter how measured and focus-group tested your message. But hopefully at least some small percentage of those who read can learn to accept the painful truths, at least in part. Maybe more and larger ones over time.

And, some others, and I think you can name a certain name as soon as I say this, will proclaim themselves the best ally you've got, and then turn around and in the same comment proclaim that none of the truths you've tried to point out to them are in the least bit real. To me, that's the most frustrating kind of trolling to deal with.

Many of us are somewhere in the middle - we accept some of the truths, resist some of them the first time (or first few times) we're exposed to them, and slowly take hesitant steps towards a fuller understanding.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

4. Oh believe me ... They did learn

Last edited Mon Sep 15, 2014, 11:26 AM - Edit history (1)

they just did not care for the teache,r is all.

The ones reading are learning too ... They are what is known as The Silent Majority.

They Get IT. They See IT. They are frustrated and Growing Bored watching this game being played out

over and over again.

day in. day out.

Same channel.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

5. Well, let's hope the silent majority take the time to join in on more juries.

Because too many of the trolls are, as you noted, simply left to roam unchecked, and too many jury comments are along the lines of 'alerters are alerting for trivial things' or 'fight it out in the comments'.

[Nye Bevan]

6. Good post.

It's not about "making people feel good". It's about talking about issues in a way that is likely to lead to constructive debate. There's a reason that the phrase "white privilege" has never appeared in a speech by President Obama or Joe Biden.

[kwassa]

9. There is not a good reason why Obama and Biden have not discussed "white privilege".

The fact that some white people get offended by the notion of being privileged is not a good reason to not discuss something that is absolutely true. To not discuss it is to avoid the truth for a more comfortable lie.

[gollygee]

7. I did not intend to bring a debate to the AA group

and I apologize to the AA group for not seeing where this was headed. We can debate this in GD maybe, but I have some other stuff going on so I don't know how involved I can get today.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

8. 'Seeing where this was headed'?

I was not trying to 'head' debate in a particular direction, merely pointing out that not all 'tone' comments are the same or have the same specific agenda.

There are certainly plenty of people out there who actually want to see voices stifled entirely, and are willing to use 'tone arguments' as one tool among many to do so. So I'm not defending all 'tone' arguments or comments in the least.

[gollygee]

10. I didn't see this

being turned into a debate over whether "white privilege" was a good choice of words, because this is a group where it has seemed to be agreed upon.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

11. Oh, the other comment.

Yes, I really wasn't looking for 'support' from that direction. White privilege exists, and the phrase makes sense - 'privilege' means 'private law', so it very literally means there are different 'laws' for different skin tones. And that can easily be seen in terms of percentages of arrests, stops, frisks, housing loans, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

[JustAnotherGen]

12. Actually - if you want the black members to participate

This is probably a good place.