In light of some recent postings and articles, it's time to revisit this...again.

[cleanhippie]

Get it? Got it? Good.

[dmallind]

1. This is a Sisyphean task I fear, but thanks.

[humblebum]

2. Now, about that broken record thing. nt

[cleanhippie]

8. I agree, now tell it the folks that can't seem to tell the difference between gnosticism and theism.

You can direct the witless sarcasm toward them.

[humblebum]

12. About that "witless sarcasm" thing. nt

[cleanhippie]

15. What about it!

Unsure just what it is? Then have a look at your posts. or use your "other" ways of knowing. Or reply with more and strengthen my point.

[humblebum]

16. I have no problem identifying it. I only need to observe a general cross-section

of your responses to me, and voila!

[cleanhippie]

17. Wonderful! I'm happy that you can use my posts to contrast against yours.

Now you know what you need to do to improve the witless stuff you provide, and while entertaining, it's pretty sophomoric and boring.

Glad I could help. Have a great day.













10 bucks says you are unable to resist the urge to respond and provide us with yet another witless, sophomoric, and boorish post.

[humblebum]

18. Well it's good to know that I am learning "witless stuff" from the best. And

put the ten bucks on my tab.

[cleanhippie]

21. If my pointing out the witless sarcasm of your posts is "learning it" from me...

I'm happy to oblige.

[humblebum]

25. Yawn ZZZZZZZZ

[cleanhippie]

26. Thanks for supporting my point....again.

[msongs]

3. instead of using the symbol for ONE religion try using a circle nt

[cleanhippie]

9. What do you mean?

This has nothing to do with any particular religion. Its about belief and knowledge.

[saras]

4. It looks like I'm a religious, as well as a political, non-Euclidian

What appear to be the four corners of the square divided into four by the cross (upper left, upper right, lower left, lower right) - are actually the same point.

[dmallind]

11. How so?

How is an agnostic atheist like a gnostic theist? (sounds like a joke setup, but can't think of the punchline).

[tama]

23. Hmm

A socratic buddhist or pyrrhonian skeptic (kenoma) and neoplatonist mystic (pleroma) do meet at same point, even though arriving from opposite directions.

And instead of a ball, it would be nice if I cound visualize a hypersphere or n-ball...

[edhopper]

5. I take it the

Gnostic axis refers to the certitude with which you hold your position. If i am 99% sure that there is no God(s), I would be a Gnostic Atheist. Do I have that right?
Your point being that Agnostics are not just somewhere between Believers and Atheists.

[cleanhippie]

6. theism and gnosticism are mutually exclusive.

Theism is belief (Atheism is lack of belief)

Gnosticism is knowledge (Agnosticism is lack of knowledge)


The point is that one has nothing to do with the other, and it is a common misconception that agnosticism is the middle ground between Theism and Atheism.

Both are Binary points, meaning that your either believe or do not believe, and you know or you do not know.

[cleanhippie]

7. theism and gnosticism are separate and very different characteristics.

Theism is belief (Atheism is lack of belief)

Gnosticism is knowledge (Agnosticism is lack of knowledge)


The point is that one has nothing to do with the other, and it is a common misconception that agnosticism is the middle ground between Theism and Atheism.

Both are binary points, meaning that your either believe or do not believe, and you know or you do not know.

If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that nearly all theists AND atheists are Agnostic in respect to their position.

[dmallind]

10. Well there's a bit more to gnosis

Both in the philosophical and linguistic sense, after Plato at least (and since the word agnostic was invented in 1869 that's a long way after Plato).

Gnosis refers to knowledge yes, but specifically knowledge via mystically revealed certainty. If you do a series of experiments to find the boiling point of sulphur and find it to be 455 degrees or so, that's not gnosis in the agnostic sense. Gnosis from about 200 BCE has meant knowledge gotten from divine or spiritual revelation outside empirical means.

So agnostic means there is no way we can get knowledge via revelation or spiritual certainty.

Your main point of course is absolutely true. Agnmosticism and atheism answer two completely separate questions and refer to two completely separate mental processes. I am 100% both, and not schizophrenic (as far as we know )

[tama]

13. Thanks

for making the point that came also to my mind.

In Gnostic Christianity (and Neoplatonism, Hermeticism etc.) 'gnosis' is very close to the Hindu, Buddhist etc. idea of 'unveiling of truth', awakening from ignorance', 'enlightment' etc.

In Aristotle's classification of 'ways of knowing' (Nicomachean Ethics), gnosis is the mostly undefinable foundation that rest of ways of knowing - praxis, tekhne, episteme, fronesis, theoria and philosophia - build on and depend from.

[tama]

14. From a multidimensional point of view

It's as incorrect to call the 1-dimensional analysis incorrect and 2-dimensional analysis correct, as it is incorrect to say that Newton's theory is incorrect and Einstein's theory correct.

Newtonian mechanics is still valid theory in its own narrow context, allthough non-euclidean spacetime has wider and deeper exlanatory power.

[rug]

19. "I really don't care."

[dmallind]

20. Actually I think this is quite thorough and accurate - with one caveat

The "I don't care" answerer is still either a theist or an atheist depending on whether he believes a god exist or doesn't. I truly don't care at all if the local kids' basketball team wins this tournament thingy they always have in March. I hear enough talk at the bar and see enough rankings cross the screen to not have any positive belief that they will though. I am an "IU-tournament-win-atheist" no matter how little I care. And even here, it's far easier to be completely opinionless on kids' basketball than it is to be on gods.

Other than that, a minor quibble that logically it's very possible to be a gnostic theist with a non-loving god (but in modern US practice, I would guess extremely rare), I think this expanded version is a good addition. Did you make it or find it may I ask?

[rug]

22. Sorry, I forgot the link. It's from the UK Freethinker.

http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/25/8419/

An excellent article explaining it accompanies the graph.

[cbayer]

24. I very much like the complexity of this.

Needless to say, other than those at the very extremes, I think most people move around within the quadrants over the course of their lives (or even the course of a day).