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Wed Apr 16, 2014, 10:33 AM

Religious Oregon teens wear ‘Gay Is Not OK’ shirts to school to protest lack of ‘straight day’

small group of Oregon teens have provoked controversy by wearing shirts that read “Gay Is Not OK” and “Gay Day Is Not OK” to their high school.

“I just made it say ‘Gay Day is not OK,’ because I don’t believe that it’s OK,” Oregon City High School student Alex Borho told KPTV.

Borho and some of his friends wore the shirts to school during the National Day of Silence on April 11. The event is intended to bring attention to bullying and harassment targeting gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people.

“I don’t have a big problem with gay people. It’s just when they start parading around the school about how we have a day of silence for gays, lesbians and transvestites,” Borho told KPTV. “We don’t have a straight day.”

Borho told KATU News that he did not approve of gay people because he was religious.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/15/religious-oregon-teens-wear-gay-is-not-ok-shirts-to-school-to-protest-lack-of-straight-day/#.U01Li3BRtiY.facebook



Religion is such a positive force in the world, right?

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Reply Religious Oregon teens wear ‘Gay Is Not OK’ shirts to school to protest lack of ‘straight day’ (Original post)
cleanhippie Apr 2014 OP
rug Apr 2014 #1
edhopper Apr 2014 #33
MellowDem Apr 2014 #87
rug Apr 2014 #89
MellowDem Apr 2014 #90
rug Apr 2014 #91
LeftishBrit Apr 2014 #2
catrose Apr 2014 #62
Niceguy1 Apr 2014 #82
handmade34 Apr 2014 #101
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #3
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #4
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #5
Goblinmonger Apr 2014 #6
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #8
Goblinmonger Apr 2014 #9
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #12
Goblinmonger Apr 2014 #13
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #14
Goblinmonger Apr 2014 #15
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #16
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #19
Goblinmonger Apr 2014 #22
skepticscott Apr 2014 #23
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #24
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #25
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #27
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #29
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #32
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #37
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #38
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #39
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #45
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #48
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #56
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #58
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #61
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #65
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #66
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #68
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #71
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #74
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #86
Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #96
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #98
okasha Apr 2014 #20
Goblinmonger Apr 2014 #21
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #28
Rob H. Apr 2014 #92
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #97
trotsky Apr 2014 #100
rug Apr 2014 #64
okasha Apr 2014 #88
Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #93
rug Apr 2014 #94
el_bryanto Apr 2014 #99
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #7
Goblinmonger Apr 2014 #10
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #11
Goblinmonger Apr 2014 #17
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #18
skepticscott Apr 2014 #31
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #34
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #35
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #36
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #40
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #41
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #42
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #44
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #46
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #47
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #49
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #50
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #51
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #52
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #53
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #54
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #55
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #57
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #59
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #60
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #63
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #67
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #69
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #70
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #72
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #73
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #75
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #76
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #77
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #78
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #80
hrmjustin Apr 2014 #81
cleanhippie Apr 2014 #85
rug Apr 2014 #84
Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #95
Rob H. Apr 2014 #26
bunnies Apr 2014 #30
LostOne4Ever Apr 2014 #43
skepticscott Apr 2014 #79
Niceguy1 Apr 2014 #83

Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 10:48 AM

1. Such a condemnation of religion!

 

"small group of Oregon teens"



It would be a worthwhile discussion but for the stupid added comment.

You're really scraping.

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Response to rug (Reply #1)


Response to rug (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 07:29 PM

87. Considering religion is inspiring it...

And religion is the major source of homosexual discrimination and persecution, I'd say it's a great condemnation.

Many progressives identify with a book that commands them to stone homosexuals. It's great pointing out the dissonance and contradiction by reminding them what that costs the rest of us.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #87)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 07:44 PM

89. Aside from your assumptions, which are a qualitative defect, this sample of a few teenagers

 

is too small to carry the weight of your sweeping conclusions. That's the quantitative defect.

The fact is, this is a flamebait OP. Don't be a moth. They don't do well with flames.

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Response to rug (Reply #89)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 07:59 PM

90. What assumptions?

The source of most discrimination and persecution of homosexuals is religion. That's a fact.

This is just an example of religion being the source of that discrimination. And a good example at that.

Again, this points out the cost to the rest of us of people who choose to identify with religious texts that tell people to stone homosexuals to death at the command of god.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #90)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 08:05 PM

91. It's an assumption, and not a well-grounded one.

 

As but one example, Sochi was not a religious convention.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:01 AM

2. For what it's worth, there is most definitely a straight day

Some would say every day; but even if one doesn't, I'd say Valentines Day fits the bill.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #2)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:47 PM

62. yeah, I was thinking everyday EOM

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Response to catrose (Reply #62)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:52 PM

82. every day isnt a special day of celebration

Butbi think Valentine's day is, if the school allows it....many dont anymore.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #2)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 09:07 AM

101. just a day of LOVE...





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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:12 AM

3. I guess this is better than posting about how religion kills kids. nt

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:28 AM

4. I guess you could say that religion is killing these kids, too.

By poisining their minds. And this is a result.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #4)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:29 AM

5. Ah - thanks for clarifying.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:33 AM

6. As long as there are posts about the positives of religion

 

in this forum, it would seem natural that the other side of the coin needs to be shown, too. That's what this forum is about--open discussion about all aspects of religion. If he were posting this in a religious safe haven, I would support the dislike of them being posted.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #6)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:36 AM

8. How many believers posting here believe that Religion is 100% positive at all times

and in all places? In your opinion?

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #8)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:44 AM

9. Probably not many

 

But that isn't the point. This point is that this forum is for discussing all aspects of religion.. The good and the bad. On that thought:

How many atheists here believe that religion is 100% negative at all times and in all places? And don't conflate "100% negative" with "benefits could be gained through secular means."

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #9)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:48 AM

12. I think that some clearly do

And if you leave out the "could be gained through secular means" you are missing the argument. The argument, I believe, is that religion does terrible things like killing kids, poisoning their minds, and so on. And it provides nothing that couldn't be gained through secular means. So why does it continue? Why do people cling to it when it does so much evil, and does nothing good that can't be gained through other means?

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:53 AM

13. I think it is pretty rare.

 

As to why does it continue? Cultural/social means. It's a pretty strong force and many are shunned if they don't continue the tradition. My mom died never knowing I was an atheist because I knew she would stop talking to me and I didn't want that. Do religions do good things? Yes. Sure. Could those be done otherwise. Probably, but we won't likely ever know. My saying to take that out of the mix is that saying it "could be gained through secular means" does not mean that one thinks religion is bad all the time. Just that the positives could be gained elsewhere. Put another way, it could still be doing good things and not being evil even though that good could be developed elsewhere.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #13)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:03 PM

14. OK - I don't think you should be confident in describing your fellow atheists

on this forum. But that's just my opinion.

One way of looking at it is that religion needs to be less arrogant in assuming that the benefits it provides could only be gained through religious means - that's clearly where you come down.

But another understandable way of looking at it is this - if the benefits of religion could be gained through other means, and if religion has huge drawbacks, than the decision to keep practicing and believing in religion is at best selfish and at worst monstrous. As long as religion is practiced, the drawbacks, like killing kids for example, or retarding scientific progress, or imposing religious rules on people, will continue to afflict society, and the need to prevent that, implies that religion needs to go away along with the negative things it produces. We would be losing nothing, because all of the benefits of religion could be gained through secular means, and we would be gaining a lot by eliminating all of the negative things religion causes.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:12 PM

15. I'm not saying that people who continue to follow it

 

are selfish nor monstrous. I think a lot of people are religious because that's the way they were raised. And I don't say that in a light hearted way. I was raised very strict Catholic and it was no easy thing to come to grips with my atheism. I ignored it and called it something else for many years. Or just ignored it hoping it would go away. Staying with something they have been a part of for their whole lives in a culture which puts a lot of emphasis on it is not monstrous. It's to be expected.

But if you look at developing countries around the world, the role and importance of religion is slowly decreasing. Many see that as a horrible thing. I don't. Perhaps I'm wrong.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:13 PM

16. Unless you are simply being facetious, your last paragraph is spot on.

And if you truly understand that POV, as described in your last paragraph, why would you continue to advocate for religions powerful place in society?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #16)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:17 PM

19. Thank you - and I hope Goblinmonger understands that many atheists here feel the way you do.

Obviously the key word there is if - if I believed that religions benefits could all be duplicated by secular functions, I would probably be an atheist. But, as you know, I'm a believer, so I believe that there are benefits to religion that can't be gained through secular functions. I don't know if you consider that facetious - I am simply trying to understand both sides of the argument, even if I come down on one side.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #19)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:40 PM

22. I don't know that it is "many"

 

And I hope you know that many believers come in to a reasonable discussion (you think we were having a reasonable discussion, yes?) like okasha does below.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #19)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:51 PM

23. Why would you be an atheist in that case?

 

The god you believe in now would still exist just as much if all of the benefits of religion could be duplicated by secular functions. Are you religious now just because religion does nice things, or because you accept god as physically real?

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #19)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:54 PM

24. If you believed that any religious benefit could be gotten by secular methods?

What religious benefits cannot be had through secular methods?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #24)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:57 PM

25. A relationship with God. nt

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #25)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 01:11 PM

27. Considering that "a relationship with god" is simply a construct of your imagination being the most

Plausible source, I'm not sure that qualifies as a benefit.

I think you need to be more precise in describing any benefits, for the mother tht killed her kids and the homophobic teens all have "relationships with god" too.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #27)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 01:14 PM

29. I don't feel like I need to - we've had this discussion before. I'm sure you know where I'm coming

from.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #29)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 01:55 PM

32. You haven't provided any tangible benefit that comes from religion.


How is a "relationship" with anything inherently a benefit of any kind?

And yes, we have started down this road before, and we always stop at this point, because you expect me to intuit what you mean. I cannot do that, for your response is meaningless as an answer to the question.

If you are unable, or unwilling to provide a coherent answer, jut say so.

(I use the word coherent as described in this definition
1. (of an argument, theory, or policy) logical and consistent.
synonyms: logical, reasoned, reasonable, rational, sound, cogent, consistent, consilient
not as an insult)

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #29)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 03:00 PM

37. So that's it? Nothing other than you personal relationship is a benefit?

And you wonder why there isn't more constructive and fruitful conversation here?

I've raised meaningful points that you, apparently, refuse to address. Why?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #37)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 03:34 PM

38. I'm sorry -I went to lunch.

OK - what are the coherent benefits of believing in God, that you can't get through secular means. In order to answer this question one needs to address a more fundamental question - is there or isn't there a God. I believe that there is a God, and you don't.

Since I believe that there is a God, I believe there is benefit to drawing close to him and trying to understand my place in his plan. I think it's valuable to consider how he wants me to behave (I usually characterize this as he'd like me to be less of a jerk). I have found that it's beneficial to have faith that there's more to this life than just a birth, death, and oblivion. I found that particularly beneficial when I lost my parents a few years back.

Now, all of those stem from the initial proposition, which is the existence of God. I can't prove the existence of God to you, of course (and I doubt you can prove the non-existence of God to me) therefore on that particular issue we are just going to disagree.

That said, do you really feel it necessary to slam into me for going to lunch and not responding to your post quickly enough? What's that all about?

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #38)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 03:38 PM

39. At risk of sounding like a meme, you are using circular logic.

You believe in god, therefore you see the benefit, because you believe in god.

While I understand your point, it's still a meaningless answer to the question.

How about this: How is a relationship inherently a benefit?

Not a relationship with god, just the simple act of having a relationship with/to something. How is that inherently beneficial? Take god out of the equation for a minute and look at it objectively.

My apologies for jumping to a conclusion regarding your not responding.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #39)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 03:54 PM

45. What is the value of a relationship - that's a big question

I'll take one - perspective. Even if you don't believe in anything but the physical world, it's still a big fucking world.

Consider all of the experiences you have had up to this point in your life. All the choices you made, all the moral quanderies you faced, all the beautiful and horrible things you've seen, all the emotions you've felt, everything that brought you to this moment in time. Now multiply that by 7 billion other humans. Now add to that all of the natural world - the animals the plants everything. We swim in an ocean of reality. If you only stay in your own head, and don't build relationships with other people, than you only see with your very limited perspective - that's not meant as insult - the most brilliant sensitive person on earth still only has a very narrow window to look through.

Reaching out to others grants you another side to the view of the world. Lets you glimpse, at least for a moment, what they see and how they see it. That's why it's good to make friends, to be interested in people, to read great books, and experience great art (which are ways to connect to people you haven't met) because the more you can do that the more perspective you have. Connecting with nature, through experience or science, also provides valuable insights.

It is a bit like the blind men who went to see the elephant, a Jain parable.

Once upon a time, there lived six blind men in a village. One day the villagers told them, "Hey, there is an elephant in the village today."

They had no idea what an elephant is. They decided, "Even though we would not be able to see it, let us go and feel it anyway." All of them went where the elephant was. Everyone of them touched the elephant.

"Hey, the elephant is a pillar," said the first man who touched his leg.

"Oh, no! it is like a rope," said the second man who touched the tail.

"Oh, no! it is like a thick branch of a tree," said the third man who touched the trunk of the elephant.

"It is like a big hand fan" said the fourth man who touched the ear of the elephant.

"It is like a huge wall," said the fifth man who touched the belly of the elephant.

"It is like a solid pipe," Said the sixth man who touched the tusk of the elephant.

They began to argue about the elephant and everyone of them insisted that he was right. It looked like they were getting agitated. A wise man was passing by and he saw this. He stopped and asked them, "What is the matter?" They said, "We cannot agree to what the elephant is like." Each one of them told what he thought the elephant was like. The wise man calmly explained to them, "All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently because each one of you touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all those features what you all said."

"Oh!" everyone said. There was no more fight. They felt happy that they were all right..

Obviously not all relationships are good - there are abusive relationships as well. But that is one benefit of having a relationship.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #45)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:04 PM

48. You make the mistake of assuming that because I lack your belief, I lack the ability to empathize

and understand interpersonal connections and relationships. And you could not be more wrong.

I experience all of that you listed, as do all of those that share my non-belief, all without the belief YOU seem to require in order to experience that.

And because non-believers all have the same experiences and capabilities to wonder that you do, proves that your claim CAN be had through secular methods.

Is there anything else you think is a benefit of religion that cannot be gained through secular methods?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #48)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:15 PM

56. What did I say that lead you to believe I doubted that atheists could empathize?

If I did say something like that I apologize. But I don't really think I did. You asked me what the value of a relationship was, taking God out of the equation, so that's the question I answered; I didn't realize what you intended by it.

Relationships as a generic concept have the benefits i mentioned above, but relationships aren't generic, they are specific. I get benefits out of my conversations with you that I wouldn't get in a relationship with say rug. Or trotsky. And similarly I would get benefits out of a relationship with them, that I wouldn't get with you.

A relationship with God has many of the generic benefits mentioned above, but it's a relationship with God (someone I believe exists, but that you don't). The God I believe in has a perspective far greater than my own or any humans, and by trying to understand what God wills for me I have a perspective I couldn't get anywhere else.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #56)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:22 PM

58. Relationships can be both positive or negative, depending on their type.

An that we agree. But any view on the positive or negative aspects would be highly subjective, unless it could be empirically proven one way or the other.

Your relationship with god cannot be proven, objectively or empirically to be positive or negative, so I fail to see how "my relationship to god" can possibly answer the question of what benefits can be had with religion that cannot had through secular methods.

To reiterate, this is the question at hand:

What benefits can be had with religion that cannot had through secular methods?


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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #58)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:37 PM

61. This is the problem

All of my answers are going to be dependent on the existence of God - which you don't accept, so all of them are going to be rejected.

In effect you are saying what benefits can be had with a religion that don't involve God that can't be had through secular methods - but once you take God out of the equation, there aren't any.

Also - please explain so I don't make that mistake again - what precisely did I say that lead you to believe that I felt that Atheists were incapable of empathy or building relationships with other?

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #61)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:53 PM

65. So you are unable to objectively answer the question?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #65)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:58 PM

66. It would appear so.

Hey you didn't answer my question, did you?

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #66)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:25 PM

68. And yet non-believers are accused of having the narrow world-view.

Amazing.

I inferred that from your post that I responded to. It appeared that that I what you were getting at. If you say that was not your intention, I accept that. Yet it shows, again, that the question has no other answer than "nothing."

Which leads us to the follow-up:

If religion provides nothing of benefit that cannot be had through secular methods, why tolerate it's elevated position in society when it comes with so many negative aspects?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #68)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:31 PM

71. If you accept the premise that there is no God than

there would be no reason to accept Religion's elevated position or, indeed, any position for Religion at all.

I do believe there is a God as do many others in the society you live in. I don't know if you have a narrow world-view, but I can comment that I do understand where you are coming from, but you profess not to understand where I am coming from. Add to that your barely concealed hostility, and . . . well, yeah it's probably all my fault we aren't getting along.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #71)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:36 PM

74. You're ignoring what we've already proven.

That religion provides no benefit that cannot be had through secular methods. That being true, why keep religion in its elevated position in society when it come with so many harmful and negative attributes?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #74)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 06:11 PM

86. You've proven that to yourself, but declaring there is no God

and requiring me to answer as if there was no God. I can't provide a satisfactory answer based on the answer that there is no God.

If there is no God than we should do away with religion.

But, you know, there is a God (at least according to me).

What is complicated about that? Why don't you get it?

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #61)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 10:43 PM

96. youve reduced the value of religion to belief in god.

 

You don't see the problem there?

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #96)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 07:43 AM

98. No I haven't.

I have said that without God the benefits of religion, that can't be gained through secular means, can't really be argued. If we were talking about the generalized value of religion than I could talk about helping people and the sense of community and the like, but all of those things could be had in a secular way as well.

Bryant

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #6)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:27 PM

20. He can't post it in a safe haven.

He got banned from Interfaith for violating the SOP with his first and only post. Nowhere to dump the garbage but here or AA.

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Response to okasha (Reply #20)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:38 PM

21. I'm having a reasonable discussion here

 

I don't need you coming in to shit on it.

But, as to your first point, I know that. My point is that a varied discussion of religion (the good AND the bad) happens in this forum. If you don't like that "garbage" you are free to trash this forum and stay in the safe havens. Perhaps that would make you more happy?

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #21)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 01:14 PM

28. And to think some want that person as a host here.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #28)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 08:42 PM

92. Well, the good news is...

it looks as if that didn't happen.

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Response to Rob H. (Reply #92)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 02:26 AM

97. Whew.

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Response to Rob H. (Reply #92)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 08:53 AM

100. Thank goodness. n/t

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #21)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:53 PM

64. I know you're striving mightily to make the actions of a few teenagers a larger religious point.

 

But there is none. It's flamebait smoldering. Kudos for your efforts but the flames are coming.

ETA: And here they are.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218124080#post63

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #21)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 07:40 PM

88. I merely added a crucial

Last edited Wed Apr 16, 2014, 09:01 PM - Edit history (1)

fact or two to your response. You could have done so and spared me the effort and yourself the palpitations.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 10:25 PM

93. Well it is certainly better than endless strawman arguments deliberately

 

mischaracterizing positions.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #93)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 10:27 PM

94. It's a push.

 

He's got those too.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #93)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 08:04 AM

99. And who are you saying dos that? nt

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:34 AM

7. Religion is a force a postive in the world.

 

My church marches in the Pride Parade and feeds homeless gay youth.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:46 AM

10. Based on the discussion I'm having above

 

Do you think that religion is always a positive force? 100% of the time in all places? I'm really asking. I think it would be interesting to know what people really think in this forum.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #10)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:46 AM

11. No, that is clear from history and current events.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #11)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:14 PM

17. And I will admit it is clear that religions aren't 100% bad all the time

 

But, to me, it is frustrating that your religion (which has an ugly sibling) needs to fight for something that was created, in a large degree, by other religions. If I still believed in a god, I would most likely have switched to be Episcopalian. But realizing I didn't believe in a god made that kind of a silly move--went the UU route instead.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:15 PM

18. And religion is an equally, if not more, negative force.

You wouldn't need to march in that parade if it weren't for relgious opposition to equality.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #18)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 01:39 PM

31. Exactly

 

And mainstream churches wouldn't have to use words like "affirming" or "open minds" as code for "WE don't hate homosexuals like those OTHER Christians" if religion of so many stripes didn't preach and promote so much bigotry. It would just be taken for granted that anything calling itself a Christian church would be welcoming to all equally.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #18)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 02:02 PM

34. That is an interesting point.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #34)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 02:12 PM

35. That's all you have to say on the subject?

"Interesting point" is all you have?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #35)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 02:14 PM

36. There is truth in your statement.

 

Religion has been used to oppress LGBT people.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #36)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 03:41 PM

40. So how can your response of "religion is a positive force in the world" have any meaning?

If for each example you give for positivity can be countered with the exact same example as for negativity, how is that an appropriate response to the question?

Can you name a single positive aspect provided by religion that cannot be had through secular methods?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #40)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 03:43 PM

41. The faith of life after death.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #41)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 03:45 PM

42. If I understand you correctly, "faith" is inherently a benefit?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #42)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 03:47 PM

44. To me it is.

 

Others might not agree.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #44)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 03:56 PM

46. How is religion a positive force for the world that cannot be gotten through secular methods?

Let's make this as objective as possible, taking your personal beliefs out of the equation.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #46)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 03:58 PM

47. People can do good works and good things with or without religion.

 

That is crystal clear.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #47)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:04 PM

49. That we already know, and doesn't answer the question at all.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #49)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:05 PM

50. Yes it does.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #50)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:07 PM

51. Your answer INCLUDES secular methods as a source.

How is religion a positive force for the world that cannot be gotten through secular methods?


If you are unable to come up with an answer, just say so.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #51)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:09 PM

52. I think I answered it. But to spell it out you don't need religion to be a force of good.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #52)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:09 PM

53. In all seriousness, are you unable to understand this question?

How is religion a positive force for the world that cannot be gotten through secular methods?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #53)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:11 PM

54. I have answered your question.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #54)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:15 PM

55. Are you fucking with me or are you unable to comprehend the question?

How is religion a positive force for the world that cannot be gotten through secular methods?


Any logical answer to this question would not include a secular method as a source. Your answer explicitly includes secular methods, therefore you have not answered the question at all.

Please, just answer the question or admit that you are unable or unwilling to do so.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #55)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:18 PM

57. I answered your question.

 

You don't like the answer that is your problem but you will get no more from me.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #57)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:24 PM

59. You gave a nonsensical answer.

By including secular methods in your answer, you didn't answer the question at all.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Unless you think nonsense is a valid response to a question...

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #59)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:25 PM

60. Have a great week.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #60)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:52 PM

63. Are you still in high school?

Seriously, are you still in high school?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #63)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:04 PM

67. Wish you the best.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #67)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:29 PM

69. If that were true, then you could answer basic questions and understand basic logic.

Being a young person still in school would explain a lot about your inability to understand basic logic and exhibit simple comprehension. Am I wrong about that?

Somehow I just don't believe that you wish me the best.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #69)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:30 PM

70. Why? Because your an atheist? Don't you wish me the best?

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #70)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:33 PM

72. I wish you had the ability to answer basic questions and exhibited basic comprehension.

Is that too much for you?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #72)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:34 PM

73. I answered your question.

 

Maybe I am not the person who has the problem.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #73)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:37 PM

75. I understand how you might think that.

Your inability to comprehend the most basic of questions is definitely a problem. Yours, not mine.

I understand your tactic here. You're trying to bait me into saying something that will get my post hidden.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #75)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:40 PM

76. Or perhaps you can't read my answer.

 

Either way we are talking in circles.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #76)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:41 PM

77. The only one talking in circles is you.

If you ask me what the square root of 9 is and I answer "purple", have I answered your question?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #77)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:42 PM

78. Maybe you should put me on ignore.

 

If I can not keep up with you then why bother wasting your time with me?

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #78)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:48 PM

80. My sense of charity and compassion for those lacking compels me.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #80)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:50 PM

81. Well don't expect me to respond to you anymore.

 

If you have the need to have the last word but I am done here. I wish you the best.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #81)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 06:05 PM

85. Again, if you truly wished me the best, you would attempt to understand basic questions.

But you choosing not to respond when you're unable or unwilling to comprehend the questions being asked would be best for the entire Group.

You have a nice day.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #75)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 06:03 PM

84. That conclusion is based on observation and predictable results.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 10:40 PM

95. I applaud the Episcopalian Church for standing up for what is right, they are an

 

exception among religious institutions in this country, the vast majority of which actively work to deny basic rights to LGBTQ people, actively work to deny people access to reproductive health care, and more generally promote and work in collusion with rightwing political forces.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:59 PM

26. I thought one of the comments below the article was funny

"Those better be 100% cotton t-shirts or god will smite them."

On a more serious note, I'd guess that the young d-bags who wore those t-shirts have never been the targets of bullying, anti-LGBT or otherwise, and just glossed over that the point of the day is to draw attention to it. I went to high school with a young man who committed suicide because he was made to feel ashamed of his sexual orientation and it still makes me sad to think of it 25+ years later. He was generous, sweet, and kind, just an all-around good person, and I hate to think that he might not have felt he could reach out to his friends to talk to them about how he was feeling.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 01:25 PM

30. "straight day" is every damn day of the year.

 

Dumbasses.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 03:46 PM

43. I agree with the ACLU

That they should have the right to wear the shirts. Its freedom of speech.

However, I also have freedom of speech and if I were a student I would wear a shirt saying something like:

"Being a homophobic Bigot is NOT okay!"


or

"Hiding behind religion does not make you any less of a homophobic bigot!"


Or

ummmm better save the last one for the AA or LGBT forum rather than here...

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #43)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:44 PM

79. Well, pure freedom of speech is a fine thing

 

but if wearing a shirt has the potential to provoke something more than a verbal dispute, the school would be negligent to turn a blind eye to that possibility.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:58 PM

83. I think the root of the issue

Is that celebration of common things in the us culture is discouraged in the public schools while other groups or things are celebrated with special days or events...

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