The Fallacy of Faith

[cleanhippie]

Faith is a term often overused, even exhausted; when describing the inherent flaws and unanswered questions of any man’s doctrine. Should the questioning of truth arise in even its most basic form, “Faith” is the only robotic answer a child of logic will ever receive. From the mouths of parents, to the pulpits of liars and thieves, the word faith reverberates so strongly in the ears of the skeptical that it serves to drown the fire of reason and leave us empty, if we let it. But the faithless should fear not, for we are no longer synonymous with emptiness. We are full of life, true life that echoes this world and the people that walk it.

It is all a matter of excuses, and the faithless have none. No distractive terms to cloak the deception of our doctrine. We must search for our answers, trek to the ends of conciseness and science for even the slightest glimpse of the powerful truth this universe holds. For it is not a simple truth, it is not so easily explained by the blind conclusions of the fearful.

In the face of adversity the believers will scorn the skeptics for their lack of faith. In a believer’s eyes, It has become essential to the proper development of a person, and without the presence of blind faith they are not whole. So many questions should arise concerning this travesty, but as with all forms of religious doctrine, it is not viable without faith. This is unacceptable. Why should a human being be forced to suppress who they are and shoulder the burden of intellectual blindness. Why should a man be expected to ingest the poison of falsehood and fantasy and destroy their humanity and curiosity? The faithless have refused this vile concoction, and will no longer be satisfied with this simple explanation of what the pulpit and the book cannot explain.

A god so powerful that he could create the heavens in a day asks only one thing of his Children. He asks only faith; in him, in his power, in his mercy, in his love, in everything he does. When he takes a man’s children in a freak accident, he asks only faith in his decision to cause such pain. When he careens a plane into the earth or slaughters thousands in an earthquake, he asks only faith in his rage. When his silence and indifference to prayers of millions brings such emptiness, he asks only faith in deliverance of doubt. A God so powerful asks only faith when he knows the suffering it causes.

--snip--

But alas, in the face of overwhelming reason, Faith still shines so brightly in the eyes and ears of the masses. The pain of insignificance, the cosmic loneliness of the truth of reality is too much to comprehend. So the alternative is Faith. It is the one-size-fits-all ideology, the breath in the lungs of the drowning believer. It is a basis for the fearful to fall back upon, in their most terrifying moments when they see the transparency of their beliefs and they realize they are losing grip on the simplicity of the idea of god, they suppress all reason with faith.

http://networkedblogs.com/uLLTb

[marsis]

1. There's a new religion afloat these past couple decades,

it's called Republicanism. If you've ever debated with these people you come to realize you are arguing with a person of faith because no amount or reason or logic will ever get through to them. No amout of facts or reality can ever shake their "faith" and you realize you've hit the proverbial wall with these people.

[cleanhippie]

2. True, but they aren't all just Republicans.

Most believers, regardless of political affiliation, have SOME point of their beliefs and/or faith where reason and logic are summarily dismissed because it doesn't square with their beliefs. You can see that happen right here in this group. That proverbial wall exists for all believers. It has to exist, for that wall is exactly where faith resides.

[marsis]

9. Oh Yeah

I've bumped into a few.

[1ProudAtheist]

3. Faith Is Just A Shield

that lazy, weak-minded, people use to insulate themselves from truth and reality. It is so much easier to use that phrase and let someone else do all of the heavy lifting.

Rather than argue with folks like that, i choose to feel sorry for them and try to point out that the gray matter between their ears has more purposes other than to be just used as a sponge to soak up the fear laden stories of unscrupulous manipulators who are only out to take away their money and their ability to reason.

[humblebum]

4. Do you realize that your total non-faith is as illogical to many people of faith

as the idea of faith is illogical to you?

[laconicsax]

5. Where's the logic in blindly accepting a proposition?

[humblebum]

7. It is not a matter of "logic in blindly accepting a proposition?"

Where is the logic in cultivating the attitude that you don't understand their beliefs and ideas, therefore, they are illogical. Regardless of whether you consider conclusions drawn from subjective or circumstantial evidences to be logical or not, does not mean others do not find them quite logical.

[laconicsax]

8. I see the straw fairy left you something under your pillow last night.

Faith is believing without evidence. If there were evidence to support the claim that, for example, the Abrahamic god exists, faith would be unnecessary.

So you see, my young friend, conclusions drawn from evidence fall outside the realm of faith. Faith is an illogical position because it is the unconditional acceptance of a proposition.

[humblebum]

10. Just the answer I expected, and thanks for the "young" comment. Not many

people my age hear such compliments. However, you perfectly illustrate the manufactured limitations of Logical Empiricism, which was purposely designed to be narrowly focused and for a specific purpose. It specifically eliminates any consideration of religious belief and does not even have the capacity to be applied to it. But, that doesn't stop many from attempting to do so anyway.

[laconicsax]

18. I must have underestimated how much straw you had.

I didn't mention empiricism, not did I imply it. I merely said that faith is belief without evidence. Once you have evidence to support a belief, you no longer need faith.

Suppose you had faith in the existence of a god (any god will do), then one night, you had a dream in which that god spoke to you. You might take that as evidence your belief is true, and would no longer need faith.

[humblebum]

23. Um? yeh. OK.

[mr blur]

11. Understanding "their beliefs and ideas"

is not necessary to find the lack of logic in their position.

Still, drone on...

[humblebum]

12. I see why they call you mr blur.

Lack of clarity, I'm guessing.

[mr blur]

20. Guessing as all you seem to do. You have no idea. You show,

no perception,
no sense,
no respect for others,
no courage to go with whatever convictions you claim to possess.

You offer nothing but evasions and half-baked pseudo-mystic, fact-free drivel.

Find someone else to irritate - I suspect that you won't find it difficult.

Sorry I haven't really given you anything to cry to a jury about this time. Have to go now, grow-ups to talk to.

[humblebum]

22. Um? Excuse me, but you began our conversation. Therefore,

you offered yourself as the one to be irritated. I did not find you, as you suggest.

[cleanhippie]

13. It's only illogical because at some point you have to dismiss reason to support your faith.

I, OTOH, never dismiss reason or rational thought. It's only illogical to those that do that, and I feel sorry for them.

[humblebum]

14. Reason is never dismissed. That is the great fallacy of atheism.

In reality, reason does not always lead to the same conclusion for different people. The difference is that your "reasoning" is based solely upon objective, empirical conclusions, which dismiss subjective reasoning entirely.
Extremely narrowly focused.

[cleanhippie]

17. Yeah, ok. If that make you feel better about your faith...

It's no skin off my back.

Have a nice day.

[laconicsax]

19. The "great fallacy of atheism" is that it requires coherent thought?

Are you really singing the praises of being unreasonable?

[humblebum]

21. So coherent thought is a fallacy? Did I ever say

that skeptical reasoning is not coherent? Nope. I said that it is narrowly focused and limited, which is quite provable. It is coherent within its own defined limitations.

[laconicsax]

24. I see your goalposts are on rollers.

First you say that the "great fallacy of atheism" is that reason is never dismissed.
Now you say that you meant "skeptical reasoning."

I wonder what it will be next.

[humblebum]

25. You do have a way of twisting words, don't you? I feel quite comfortable

with what I said. The reason of a skeptic or an atheist is limited. However, that does not preclude a believer from reasoning the existence of deity.

[laconicsax]

26. So directly quoting you is "twisting words," is it?

[humblebum]

27. Where did I ever say that? But by implying that I substituted skeptical reasoning for

reasoning is totally dishonest. It's nothing more than evasion on your part.

[cleanhippie]

28. I gotta gove you credit, humblebum, you are never afraid to deny that you wrote something, even when

its right there for anyone to see.



What strikes me as strange thought, is that you seem to think that once you post again, your post from before must disappear from view and no one can see exactly what you wrote.

Hint: They don't disappear, they are quite visible to everyone.

[humblebum]

30. Most everything strikes you as a strange thought. nt

[cleanhippie]

35. Ahh, the personal insult, the last stand of a person with no argument.

I'm sure that makes jesus proud.

[humblebum]

39. Guess that means you have no argument, huh? nt

[cleanhippie]

42. I find your willful denial of reality to be interesting.

[humblebum]

44. And, no doubt strange. nt

[cleanhippie]

29. I think you are confusing "rationalizing" with "reasoning."

Believers rationalize the existence of their deity, and that is a far cry from reasoning.

ra·tion·al·ize/ˈraSHənlˌīz/
Verb: Attempt to explain or justify with logical, plausible reasons, even if these are not true...

But good with that.

[humblebum]

31. Funny. That's exactly what you are doing with your extremely narrow POV.

Just keep telling yourself that atheistic "reasoning" is all there is and everyone who deviates from that is wrong.

[laconicsax]

32. Still beating that straw man, I see.

I really need to get that broken record pic cleanhippie has.

[humblebum]

33. Straw men don't argue back. This one does. nt

[laconicsax]

34. If an inanimate object is talking to you, you should seek psychiatric help.

[cleanhippie]

36. Here ya go, it's from his Greatest Hits collection.

[laconicsax]

41. Thanks.

[longship]

6. There's no escape from the logic

...unless you believe only in faith.

These faith arguments are the same ones which Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Daniel C. Dennett, Victor Stenger, PZ Myers, Bertrand Russell, and many others have been dismissing for decades. No faith arguments survive these assaults.

The Repug party is so repugnant solely because they have been taken over by a Christian cabal. However nobody in the major media is saying this, or anything like it (except Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, etc.).

Dennett's Breaking the Spell spells this out with copious detail. "Faith" is not a valid play in this game. In fact it's a move that excludes you from the dialog. We're not going to allow you to play the faith card. It's an exclusionary tactic which is invalid in this context.

My take in this is that the longer we wait before we take on --- head on --- the overtly religious forces of the Repugs (and make no mistake, there's no difference between Republican and religious fundamentalist) the longer it will be before we'll have reasonable political dialog. This has to be our primary strategic goal.

Sorry for the rant. I just had to get that off my chest. I'm f*cking sick and tired of these Repugnant church people.

On edit: fixed some stuff.

[deacon_sephiroth]

15. a good read

For me, the more I learned, and grew and gained the capacity fro critical thought, the more I questioned and understood, the more the word "faith" changed for me. Having grown up in a southern christian community attending Christian schools, I was always taught that "faith" was the best thing anyone could ever have, and those people that claimed it the loudest, had the most and were therefor the best people...

Over the years I've learned a LOT about people that claim to have faith so loudly, they are generally NOT the best people, and worse examples spring up every day. Ultimately I find the term nigh synonymous with delusion, gullibillity, lack of reason and criitcal thinking, or just plain bullshit. I find myself ending dicusions with "people of faith" shortly (and politely) after the topic is breached. Faith eh? Please... spare me.

[rug]

16. Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe.

- Voltaire

[cleanhippie]

37. Faith is not wanting to know what is true.

-Friedrich Nietzsche

[rug]

38. You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way,

it does not exist. - Friedrich Nietzsche

[deacon_sephiroth]

40. sounds like a good arguement for atheism

because if there was a right, correct, and only way, surely it would be god's way. Since there isn't.......

also I couldn't resist quote dropping

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true." - Mark Twain

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin Franklin

[cleanhippie]

43. Our principles are founded on the immovable basis of equal right and reason

- Thomas Jefferson

[rug]

45. Reason itself is fallible, and this fallibility must find a place in our logic.

- Nicola Abbagnano