As an atheist, I'm grateful Christians pray for me

[rug]

By Kerri K. Morris, today at 1:16 pm

I’ve heard quite a few people write and speak about how they were abandoned by friends after being diagnosed with cancer. I am very grateful that wasn’t my experience.

From high school friends I haven’t seen in 35 years to Facebook friends I’ve never met in person, from close friends to work colleagues, people seemed to come out of the woodwork to wish me well.

I was raised in an evangelical Christian home and went to a church-affiliated college. Many of my old friends are, not surprisingly, Christians.

My life took a different turn. For those inclined to witness to me, please know that I’ve come to my own belief system not through crisis or disappointment—though there’s been plenty of that—but through hard work, lots of reading and reflecting. And through lots of praying.

http://www.chicagonow.com/cancer-is-not-a-gift/2014/09/as-an-atheist-im-grateful-christians-pray-for-me/

[pleinair]

1. beautiful message

great in its compassion

[rug]

2. I agree. She looks past the rhetoric and sees the humanity in it.

From my father to my friends, I am frequently told that I’m being prayed for. It used to irritate me beyond reason. It felt patronizing and alienating. It felt like rejection.

Since being diagnosed, though, I feel differently about it. I’ve been reminded by some of these old friends, and by some new ones, that praying is what Christians do to find and offer comfort, to encircle others with love and protection.

It doesn’t really matter anymore to me what I believe about prayer. What matters is what I believe about these people. I believe that they care, that they love, and that they are sincere and good people.

[roguevalley]

31. agreed. I appreciate anyone thinking of me and wishing me well when I'm down,

like right now.

Someone hit a moose outside my job in the middle of town, in broad daylight, then drive on without looking back once. They just shot her because her legs were broken. If that wasn't bad enough, I just saw her young calf walk into the woods alone, frightened and in shock. I hope it lives. I am going to pray for both of them. Innocents.

[cbayer]

65. Wow, that's a really sad story.

Do they live in herds? Will the calf be able to find another to take care of it?

[roguevalley]

69. No. They are solitary. The cows keep their calves through their first winter, then

run them off to have the next calf, sometimes twins. It is a tragedy.

[cbayer]

71. So this calf would have stayed with it's mother through this winter?

So sad.

[dballance]

3. Sorry, I still find it annoying and condecending.

So often, when a Christian finds that I am an atheist they express their sadness that I don't have anything fulfilling in my life and then they promise to pray for me. The intended meaning of "I'll pray for you" is typically "I'm praying that you see the error of your ways and come around to believing as I do. Because if you don't you're going to burn in Hell for all eternity and I'd really hate to see that." Oh, and I have lots of fulfilling things in my life. Friends, family, work, my love of photography while hiking in nature.

I've had some serious health issues this year. One that involved possibly losing my left arm and another fighting a major staph infection. Never, at any time did I feel grateful for anyone saying "I'll pray for you." Because, just as sincerely as they believe in a God I sincerely believe there is not one. There is no Hell, there is no Heaven. Prayer has never, never, let me repeat, never been shown to provide results as being an effective therapy for illness. If it were effective then the kids whose parents refused to take them to the doctor would have survived rather than died due to their parent's absolute belief in a God, prayer, and the ineffectiveness of modern medicine and science.

If you want to support me in times of difficulty I will be appreciative. Send me cards, e-mails and messages of hope and support. I don't need a deity to have hope or receive support. Given what I believe, accepting prayers would be very hypocritical.

[rug]

4. Have you considered they are wishing you well?

[dballance]

5. Wishing me well by advocating something with which I completely disagree?

If I were a Satanist (I'm not) and I sent well wishes to my ill friends that mentioned I was praying to Satan for their recovery and I sent cards to that effect and enrolled them in a group of online Satanists that would also send them well wishes would that be okay? Because, I'd be wishing them well in my particular way - not theirs. Despite the fact it would go against every fiber of their being.

[rug]

7. I'd be fine with getting a get well card from a Satanist.

I usually don't judge people to the very fiber of their being.

[dballance]

9. You are Straining Credibility.

You'd be fine with getting a card from a Satanist that explicitly tells you that s/he is praying to Satan for your recovery and that, Satan Willing, you will recover though the blessings of the grace of Satan?

I'm finding that a bit difficult to believe.

On Edit:

Frankly, I think most Christians would be rather offended at getting such a card and would respond in very negative ways.

[rug]

15. For some skepticism is liberating; for others it's paralyzing.

Yes, of course I'd be fine with it. I don't believe in Satanism nor do I mind that some do. I would take the good wishes in the spirit, sorry, the intention, with which they are tendered. It's a fellow human being offering them, not simply a Satanist, or a Christian, or a Buddhist, or an atheist.

[Starboard Tack]

81. Why is he "Straining Credibility"?

What is your problem with Satanism? It is as valid as any other belief system. There are theistic Satanists and atheistic Satanists. You might want to research it a little more.

[immoderate]

6. Praying for you because you're sick, and praying for you because you're atheist...

... are expressions of entirely different sentiments.

When people find I'm atheist, and say "I'll pray for you," I reply with, "Thanks, I'll think for you." Not the first to do it, I'm sure.

--imm

[dballance]

8. I Believe you are Wrong. It's the Same.

I find that many, not all, Christians believe that to be of any other religion than Christianity or to be agnostic or atheist is a "sickness" of a sort. My experience is that many (again, not all) would call it a sickness of the soul. A defect that needs to be corrected through prayer and worship. This was certainly what I was taught in my Southern Baptist Church.

Those who believe in this manner group atheism along with other "maladies," like being LGBT, that can be overcome through prayer and proper deference to a supernatural being. They are wrong.

We have come quite a ways from the Iron Age of the Biblical times. We now know that seizures are not caused by demons inhabiting the bodies of people. We now know the world is not flat and that one cannot go to the highest mountain and see all four corners. We now know about bacteria and viruses and how to combat them. We now know about proper food handling that makes it safe for us to eat shrimp, lobsters and pork. We now know how to take flight in heavier than air machines.

We have shed so many of the beliefs of the people who were ignorant (not a dig on them, just the truth) of the world we now understand. Why we hold on to the beliefs in mythological characters who are no more real than the gods and goddesses of the many peoples of the Near East at the alleged times of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus is something I cannot comprehend.

[immoderate]

10. Yep. We've achieved the cheeseburger, which is biblically forbidden...

But can we get along? That may benefit from a more nuanced view. I assure you, I have little tolerance for proselytizing, but I don't curse people for what they say when I sneeze.

--imm

[840high]

11. Achoo!!!!

[Geoff R. Casavant]

12. When someone says they will be praying

What I hear is, "I will be doing just about the least amount of actual activity I can do, on your behalf." Rarely have I seen on of the praying folk follow up with a question if there is something more mundane yet more helpful that can be done, such as running errands, doing housework, or watching kids.

[LiberalAndProud]

13. I've had different experiences than you have.

In my experience, many folks who pray will also find kind acts to perform.

I do know that "I'll be praying for you," can be grating for some atheists, especially if they're going through a particularly emotionally taxing time. For me, I think I'm okay with it.

[catrose]

51. I always ask if there's anything I can do first

If they say "No" or "Not right now," offering prayers (if I know they're not offensive) at least means that I'm thinking of the person and the situation.

[cbayer]

20. How did or do you respond when people say that they will pray for you?

I think there is a way to let people know that you appreciate their thoughts but, as an atheist, other messages are more meaningful to you.

[roguevalley]

34. just say thank you. courtesy is always good

if you don't believe it won't matter. If you do, you will be comforted. I am comforted.

[cbayer]

64. While I agree with you and respond as you do, I was wondering how those

that felt very negatively handled. it. I was particularly curious whether there was a way to convey that in a kind way.

[roguevalley]

70. I know. I try and pick my dueling points. I consider courtesy the best road

because it lets us both walk away in one piece.

[cbayer]

72. Exactly. Sometimes, if the situation is right, it's possible

to make something a teaching moment. Oftentimes people say things and don't realize how others might take it.

But, in general, I think being gracious is the best response with people that you don't really know.

I feel differently when it comes to outright bigotry, though. I am much more likely to say something when that occurs.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. Couple thoughts.

"I’ve heard quite a few people write and speak about how they were abandoned by friends after being diagnosed with cancer. I am very grateful that wasn’t my experience."

Those fair weather friends are cheap motherfuckers and you don't need them in your life anyway. Who the hell does that?
Is this actually a common thing?


I share the 'I don't receive anything on that frequency' sentiment. I tried to listen when I was younger. Didn't hear anything, and didn't bother dwelling on it. At the time, I figured if some god didn't want to talk to me, I didn't need to talk to him/her/they/it either. (I'm not sure when the fully formed conscious realization there was nothing to talk TO hit me, but I always had a sense that other people were more or less pretending and going on about something that didn't exist at all.)

I guess I can see it as one way to learn to express empathy, but it's still obnoxious to some non-believers for very good reason.

[rug]

16. Churlishness is another species of obnoxiousness.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. Oh I see.

It's 'churlishness' on my part to not be impressed by someone hoping really hard to some non-existent thing on my behalf for intercession that clearly isn't going to happen? Shame on me.

If it was a five year old, fine, that's like a child handing you a pretend phone. You answer it anyway. But from an adult? Nah. Grownups oughta know better.

[rug]

18. Ask Andrew W.K.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2014/09/ask_andrew_wk_on_prayer.php

[cbayer]

22. That's a great link. I love the way he put that.

[AtheistCrusader]

28. There's another way to be closer to someone.

"I want you to think of your love for him. Your fear of him dying. Your feeling of powerlessness. Your feelings of anger and frustration. Your feelings of confusion. You don't need to ask to get anything. You don't need to try and fix anything. You don't need to get any answers. Just focus on every moment you've ever had with your brother. Reflect on every memory, from years ago, and even from just earlier today. Let the feelings wash over you. Let the feelings take you away from yourself. Let them bring you closer to him. Let yourself be overwhelmed by the unyielding and uncompromising emotion of him until you lose yourself in it. "

Why not just go be close to him. Be supportive. Talk to. Etc.

What's the point of hoping from a distance? I don't understand his suggestion.

[cbayer]

63. Those are all good things to do as well.

Hoping from a distance may mean nothing to you, but it may mean something to someone else.

My daughter leaves for Nigeria today. I mentioned this to hrmjustin and he said he would pray for her. What that meant to me was that he cared and was offering support. That meant something to me. I appreciated it.

[AtheistCrusader]

67. Well, I understand if you don't want to share but

if there's an APO or other mailing system near her, some of us are known to send care packages to people overseas for various reasons.

I know that's a little materialistic of me...
What will she be doing in Nigeria?

[cbayer]

68. That is so very kind of you.

She works for the CDC and is going there to work with the US ebola team. As a government employee, she gets pretty much everything she needs while there. Most importantly, I hope they provide the level of security that she needs.

But thanks so much for that. I greatly appreciate it.

[AtheistCrusader]

79. No worries.

An aside, perhaps they have a group mailing program, like Any Soldier does.

I have a high school friend living in Jamaica, working for the State Department. I send him stuff now and then as well. Even though he can get pretty much whatever he needs there. (Including Heineken, ugh)

[AtheistCrusader]

26. Andrew W.K...

Let's see what kind of deep thoughts a person like Andrew W.K spawns..


"Tension in my hand
When you're standin' there
Not thinkin' anything (It's time to Party!)
Doing it fast, When you're doing it long
Keep gettin' your money (It's time to Party!)
Pounding on one, touchin' yourself
It's not too late (It's time to Party!)
Open your mouth, we're all gonna come... In.. your.. face!

(Hey...)
It's time to... party, party, there's gonna be a party tonight!"

Fascinating reference there.
Any others? How about Jerry Fallwell... or Ann Coulter?

[rug]

30. Which responds to his post how?

And do explain your Falwell/Coulter reference. I have free time.

[AtheistCrusader]

35. Content from a sexist pig that I wouldn't have expected to see posted in a postive light in DU.

There are many to choose from, I was surprised you chose that one.

[rug]

37. I'll give you a second chance. What content of that post do you object to?

(Meanwhile, feel free to keep quoting Dawkins.)

And you have yet to explain the Falwell/Coulter reference except to imply, rather than state, I find them good sources. Do you have anything to state plainly?

[AtheistCrusader]

39. The author, and don't play coy.

I can't recall the last time I quoted Dawkins, but please remind me.

[rug]

41. The author is not the content.

And the currency of coyness is implication.

[AtheistCrusader]

42. I read his bit.

It's fundamentally flawed. (I pointed out some of the flawed content to CBayer in another post.)

But I am, as I said, surprised someone would seriously quote him here on DU. Not in a positive light, anyway.

[rug]

43. I bet you never heard of him before.

Here's another one.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2014/08/ask_andrew_wk_right_wing_dad.php

[AtheistCrusader]

44. Actually I have that album.*

It's a great workout album, but once I actually started closely listening to the lyrics, I noticed a problem.


"You've reduced your father -- the person who created you -- to a set of beliefs and political views and how it relates to you."

That's not a terribly invalid thing to do, if all of your interactions with such a person are completely involved in that sort of balance. My father was all of that, and a wife-beater too. His 'humanity' became, at some point, irrelevant.


*How the hell did you think I knew the lyrics to that song?

[rug]

45. Humanity never becomes irrelevant.

Johnny Cash notwithstanding.

[AtheistCrusader]

46. I tend to disagree.

But I let people vote themselves off the island on their own, I am not actually a mechanism of judgment.

[rug]

47. You've just stated the Catholic doctrine of Hell.

[AtheistCrusader]

48. Which part?

Being six and unable to stop your dad from punching out your mom's teeth? That part?

(Dad was a catholic, by the by. I may have picked up some aspect of his personality, but I hope not.)

[rug]

50. No, this part:

I let people vote themselves off the island on their own, I am not actually a mechanism of judgment.

The doctrine is that God condemns no one, that people choose to reject God, exiling themselves.

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

It's an extraordinarily difficult thing to do. That's why I think there will be less people in Hell than there are in Wyoming. If any.

[AtheistCrusader]

53. It's actually a common meme outside catholocism.

I don't feel I have the right to force people to be better than they are. I can say something, but that's about it.

Part and parcel of a non-interventionist/semi-pacifist mindset. I can get involved, but only when someone is under attack.
You might be the first catholic I've met that suggested hell would be low in population. An interesting takeaway from this discussion.

(The physical assault on my mom thing is something that today, I could do something about, but as scrappy as I was as a kid, nothing I could really do there.)

[rug]

54. Sorry about your Mom and what happened to her - and you.

[AtheistCrusader]

57. It sucked, but it's over now.

I can at least make sure my kid is never exposed to that sort of horror.

Inquiry; what do you, personally, see hell as? The lake of fire thing, or just separation from god?

[rug]

58. Separation. But hardly just separation.

Assuming there is a God, to go to hell means you must know who God is, not a caricature, and then deliberately, consciously and willfully walk away.

I honestly cannot conceive what that would be like. I used to imagine it as a place of infinite regret but it can't be that because what follows that is a desire to change. Hell strikes me as a state of infinite inward obstinance.

[AtheistCrusader]

66. If it turns out there is a god, and it is anything like the one in the bible, I'll be one of those

who turn away. I do not seek eternity, and have no use for it anyway, pleasurable or otherwise. It's not in my nature. Just like I don't play games that don't hold real risk and real reward. There's no fun for me in pushing a button that says 'winner' every time.

[rug]

73. As I said, it requires knowing God, not a caricature.

[AtheistCrusader]

78. I have limited resources to work with.

[rug]

80. As do we all.

[cbayer]

21. Actually, being abandoned when times are hard is a very real thing.

Not just cancer, but AIDS, psychiatric illness and any number of life circumstances that aren't even illnesses.

It happens all too frequently.

[cbayer]

19. Clearly different people experience this very differently.

When people say it to me, I generally hear them telling me that they will be thinking of me and wish me the best. I have had people say it in a way that was meant differently, though. Those that mean that they hope I will be saved, I just ignore.

Nice piece, though. Glad he is well.

[beam me up scottie]

23. As an atheist I was supposed to be grateful that my christian coworkers prayed for me

in their daily christian bible study.

And that they felt the need to tell me all about it.

Because you know, they were only doing out of concern for my immortal soul.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. Last time one of them told me about how hard they were praying for me, I told her

if it did anything at all, I'd already know, wouldn't I? Telling me is just guilt tripping me for the time she wasted on it.

Hasn't brought it up since.

[rug]

33. Cool story, bro.

[AtheistCrusader]

36. Yup.

Give it a couple months though, she'll probably forget and start all over.

[rug]

38. Make sure you post about it.

[AtheistCrusader]

40. I will.

If it's not in an indexed location, I'll copy paste it with the names removed to protect the guilty.

[beam me up scottie]

49. The idea that they were discussing me at all is revolting.

This was my workplace, they had no right to use it as their bully pulpit.

I'm sure the usual suspects will show up and claim to be confused by my hostility.

[AtheistCrusader]

52. I totally see your point.

In my case, we aren't just co-workers, but also personal acquaintances. So they have a little more leeway in that regard with me, than in your case. Fully understand.

[rug]

32. You do realize that article was not about you.

[beam me up scottie]

55. Do you only express your opinion in threads when the article in the op is about you?

You do realize that article was written by an atheist.

[rug]

56. No, but I usually reply to the subject.

And yes, I do. The headline was a clue.

You do realize that being an atheist is not the same as belonging to the Borg.

[beam me up scottie]

59. Thank dog I have you to tell me what being an atheist is all about.

This obsession with us is flattering, we must really get under your skin.

kisses

[rug]

60. Any time.

Check back if actually you want to know what obsession is.

[beam me up scottie]

61. obsession:

ob·ses·sion
noun \äb-ˈse-shən, əb-\

: a state in which someone thinks about someone or something constantly or frequently especially in a way that is not normal

: someone or something that a person thinks about constantly or frequently

: an activity that someone is very interested in or spends a lot of time doing

[rug]

62. That's correct.

Now that you've learned the definition, learn to use it correctly.

[edgineered]

24. It makes no difference to me

What was intriguing about the article was that the author reduced the act of prayer to christians only. That lead me to doubt the validity of his claim of being an athiest.

A different way to look at though is by the way a Navy chaplain answered a question posed to him. The question was in affect, how can you perform services to all different beliefs? Basically he said that he was just an enabler, the services are for the benefit of the people, not for whichever way they choose to believe. Had the author had the same level of understanding as the chaplain he would not have explicitly said christians.

That being said, some of us would rather accept things based on how they were intended. As stated above, some say they will pray for me as a compliment, for others it is a criticism. Generally I just say thank you and leave the speaker to take what he wants from it.

[AuntPatsy]

27. I have no problem with such a situation, I only have a problem with the end result, say there are 2

Children, both diagnosed with a terminal illness, the word spreads, as it does theses days it will probably spread via in on-line communities, one survives, cancer in remission, one passes away never getting better, do we celebrate that prayer saved one and ignored the other?

It's very hard for me to see any fairness when both are innocent and deserving of a full and happy life, nor do I find praying on a battlefield any less repugnant, seriously you pray another dies so that you may live?

And praying at sports events, oy vey, I find it pretty horrific that an all wondrous and loving being, the father of all mankind would lower himself to take sides and pray one team loses while another thrills in the victory of defeat...

[Paper Roses]

29. I've had several people say that they would pray for me. My answer is always:

Thank you.

I am not a believer but respect those who are. Whatever works. Cant hurt.

[aka-chmeee]

74. During my little adventure with cancer

My experience paralleled hers and throughout there was never any sense of abandonment of friends, family or casual acquaintances. As far as I know, none of my closer friends share my atheism. So, while I don't make any secret of my (lack of) belief, most visits took that turn at some point. I, with encouragement (insistence, actually) from my wife, accepted the notification of prayers in my behalf with what grace I could muster and no comment. Difficult; given my lack of patience on the matter. Never mind that I consider it a handy escape phrase for those who know they can't do anything else.
I don't know if she warned others but I had told her that if ANYONE gave me that "Be strong! God NEVER gives us more than we can handle!" crap, there was going to be a scene. I fully expected it from at least one of my sisters but for whatever reason, we were all spared from that.

[rug]

75. I hope your bout with cancer is in the past.

One thing about cancer, it removes the bullshit from daily life pretty quickly. What's left is the serious part.

[aka-chmeee]

76. Almost 2 years out.

Docs say if I stay clear for 2 years, it probably won't come back. Life changing in many ways.

[rug]

77. Great news.