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rug

(82,333 posts)
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 01:43 PM Sep 2014

The atheist libertarian lie: Ayn Rand, income inequality and the fantasy of the “free market”

Atheist libertarians pose as skeptics -- except when it comes to free markets and the nature of corporate power



The atheist libertarian lie: Ayn Rand, income inequality and the fantasy of the "free market"Rand Paul, Ayn Rand, Richard Dawkins (Credit: AP/Timothy D. Easley/Reuters/Chris Keane)

Sunday, Sep 14, 2014 01:00 PM EDT
CJ Werleman

Why atheists are disproportionately drawn to libertarianism is a question that many liberal atheists have trouble grasping. To believe that markets operate and exist in a state of nature is, in itself, to believe in the supernatural. The very thing atheists have spent their lives fleeing from.

According to the American Values Survey, a mere 7 percent of Americans identify as “consistently libertarian.” Compared to the general population, libertarians are significantly more likely to be white (94 percent), young (62 percent under 50) and male (68 percent). You know, almost identical to the demographic makeup of atheists – white (95 percent), young (65 percent under 50) and male (67 percent). So there’s your first clue.

Your second clue is that atheist libertarians are skeptical of government authority in the same way they’re skeptical of religion. In their mind, the state and the pope are interchangeable, which partly explains the libertarian atheist’s guttural gag reflex to what they perceive as government interference with the natural order of things, especially “free markets.”

Robert Reich says that one of the most deceptive ideas embraced by the Ayn Rand-inspired libertarian movement is that the free market is natural, and exists outside and beyond government. In other words, the “free market” is a constructed supernatural myth.

http://www.salon.com/2014/09/14/the_atheist_libertarian_lie_ayn_rand_income_inequality_and_the_fantasy_of_the_free_market/

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The atheist libertarian lie: Ayn Rand, income inequality and the fantasy of the “free market” (Original Post) rug Sep 2014 OP
Rand Paul and Ayn Rand -- sure they are libertarians who lend atheism a bad name. LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #1
Penn Jillette would have been a better choice for the picture. rug Sep 2014 #2
I think that may be stretching the point. LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #3
Religious right-libertarians do the same thing. LeftishBrit Sep 2014 #4
Except that edhopper Sep 2014 #5
Paul is a politician. One cannot surmise with confidence that he is not an atheist. LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #6
As can be said of any politician edhopper Sep 2014 #7
Do you know anything about the author? rug Sep 2014 #8
It doesn't matter who he is edhopper Sep 2014 #10
No, it does. An opinion can be regarded or dismissed depending on an author's knowledge of the topic rug Sep 2014 #11
It seems to be an odd brand of libertarianism, for many. LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #13
Actually edhopper Sep 2014 #16
To the extent atheism is portrayed as the embodiment of cool, rational, progressive thought, rug Sep 2014 #17
That may be. LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #22
Maybe we're just looking at it wrong. LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #9
I wouldn't dismiss it so cavalierly. rug Sep 2014 #12
He may as well have said, Why would any atheist be Libertarian? LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #14
As I said edhopper Sep 2014 #15
That's not his statement. rug Sep 2014 #18
22% of americans edhopper Sep 2014 #19
Read the article. rug Sep 2014 #20
I did edhopper Sep 2014 #21
He states the demographics of self-identified libertarians closely correlate the demographics of rug Sep 2014 #23
It's a misuse of stats edhopper Sep 2014 #25
You're not saying that because we look alike, we must be the same people, are you? LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #27
That is not the conclusion offered as you well know. rug Sep 2014 #28
I think they need a political education, and to have their heads examined. LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #30
Fair enough. rug Sep 2014 #32
Which kind edhopper Sep 2014 #33
He makes it clear in the first paragraph who he's referring to. rug Sep 2014 #34
I agree with that edhopper Sep 2014 #36
He is only counting edhopper Sep 2014 #24
Why are you so resistant to the notion of libertarian atheists?. rug Sep 2014 #26
Of course there are edhopper Sep 2014 #29
The author is a well-known activist and speaker. rug Sep 2014 #31
Every skeptic should know edhopper Sep 2014 #35
Any one should know not to ignore the data. But this isn't a monograph. rug Sep 2014 #37
Which is fine edhopper Sep 2014 #38
Now that's the argument isn't it? How big a problem it is. rug Sep 2014 #39
That is the discussion edhopper Sep 2014 #40
I see you're making good on your threat. beam me up scottie Sep 2014 #41
It's going exactly as expected. rug Sep 2014 #42
You sure seem to post about it a fucking lot Goblinmonger Sep 2014 #43
As a matter of fact, I think it does mean something which should be followed. rug Sep 2014 #45
I would prefer you stop acting like Goblinmonger Sep 2014 #48
It's a good thing I don't really give a shit about your preferences or your meta mania, rug Sep 2014 #52
Then why'd you ask? Goblinmonger Sep 2014 #57
I thought you understood the nuance of a rhetorical question. rug Sep 2014 #59
He doesn't think we should post about religion in the A/A group. beam me up scottie Sep 2014 #47
Isn't that rich? Goblinmonger Sep 2014 #49
Why would someone continue to read a group when they're so offended by what's posted? beam me up scottie Sep 2014 #53
No, Goblimnonger, this is the discussion board of DU. rug Sep 2014 #55
Oh noes!!1! beam me up scottie Sep 2014 #44
Unlike you, I can tell the difference between atheism and atheists. rug Sep 2014 #46
Thank Dawkins there are experts like you to set me straight. beam me up scottie Sep 2014 #50
Actually, I think any random person on a street corner could do that. rug Sep 2014 #51
No you're special. beam me up scottie Sep 2014 #58
It seem to me you're the one who popped in here. rug Sep 2014 #60
I'm not the one who keeps "abreast of DU gossip" in groups where I'm banned. beam me up scottie Sep 2014 #61
No, but now you know where you can find it. rug Sep 2014 #62
Excellent linked article! JEFF9K Sep 2014 #54
Thanks. Libertaeianism is insidious wherever it appears. rug Sep 2014 #56
Why are Catholics edhopper Sep 2014 #63
Looks like most of the Tea Partiers are part of the Christian right too. beam me up scottie Sep 2014 #64
I was being facetious edhopper Sep 2014 #67
Yeah I got that when I viewed the poll and article. beam me up scottie Sep 2014 #81
How in the world did that shoe get on the wrong foot? AtheistCrusader Sep 2014 #69
What I wrote was nonsense edhopper Sep 2014 #73
I am being facetious as well. AtheistCrusader Sep 2014 #74
Yeah edhopper Sep 2014 #75
That is not the OP's claim at all. cbayer Sep 2014 #77
No, read it again edhopper Sep 2014 #79
Simple. Historically they are socially conservative. rug Sep 2014 #71
This is no surprise, is it? cbayer Sep 2014 #65
In this country especially edhopper Sep 2014 #66
One of the reasons I think this article is important is cbayer Sep 2014 #70
Unaffiliated edhopper Sep 2014 #72
I am, of course, quite aware that these are different things. cbayer Sep 2014 #76
Yes, edhopper Sep 2014 #80
So many different concepts that we first label and then try to quantify under those labels. LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #78
It's not so much that I don't grasp it, as I don't believe it. AtheistCrusader Sep 2014 #68

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
3. I think that may be stretching the point.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 02:17 PM
Sep 2014

Just to be clear, I don't like Rand or Rand. I am rather offended at the general trend of the article (beginning with the selection of Dawkins' photo) to lump all atheists into the libertarian bucket together.

I hate that.

Truth: Some of us crowdsource charitable giving.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/12/us-atheists-donations-idUSTRE7B81SU20111212


LeftishBrit

(41,192 posts)
4. Religious right-libertarians do the same thing.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 04:27 PM
Sep 2014

Right-libertarians of all religions and none unite in the worship of good old Mammon.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
5. Except that
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 05:04 PM
Sep 2014

Paul is not an atheist and Dawkins is not a libertarian.
And their use of overlapping demographics didn't say what percent of atheist are libertarians and visa versa.
In other words their stats are useless. As is the article. An article about libertarian lies that stretches the truth, pot, meet kettle.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
6. Paul is a politician. One cannot surmise with confidence that he is not an atheist.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 05:18 PM
Sep 2014
“My faith has never been easy for me. Never been easy to talk about and never been without obstacles.” Paul said he struggled to understand “how tragedy could occur in a world that has purpose and design.” Borrowing language from his father, Paul said he does not wear his religion “on my sleeve.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/02/is-rand-paul-christian-enough-for-the-gop.html


You do what you gotta do to get elected.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
7. As can be said of any politician
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 05:34 PM
Sep 2014

But the article choose two men to link atheist and libertarians. No evidence that he is and we know Dawkins is not libertarian. So neither are both
So the article is about something they have no evidence for. What percent of atheist are libertarian? What percent of libertarians are atheist? The don't say.
The author never shows that atheist are disprpotionally drawn to libertarianism. In fact, atheists are disproportionately more Democrats and liberal.
What I'm saying is it's utter bullshit.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
10. It doesn't matter who he is
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 05:46 PM
Sep 2014

I appreciate his commentary about Rand and the 'free market' but his linking of atheism and libertarianism is far from justified, as I have shown. Why does he even include it?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
11. No, it does. An opinion can be regarded or dismissed depending on an author's knowledge of the topic
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 05:57 PM
Sep 2014

As to Dawkins, he isn't even mentioned in the article so I suspect it was an editor's license to include him.

But he does have a point about the many overt atheists who also endorse libertarianism. It should not be surprising if atheism is simply a nonbelief in god(s). But their numbers are not insignificant.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
13. It seems to be an odd brand of libertarianism, for many.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:14 PM
Sep 2014
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/01/13/why-are-atheists-overwhelmingly-left-wingers-in-which-i-out-myself-as-a-libertarian/

Even allowing that there may be "many overt atheists who also endorse libertarianism," which has been asserted but not proven, why is that important?

The truth is, I imagine there are more atheists who vote Democratic than vote Libertarian, and fewer still who vote Republican. That is also an unproven assertion.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
17. To the extent atheism is portrayed as the embodiment of cool, rational, progressive thought,
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:26 PM
Sep 2014

Werleman paints a more complete picture.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
22. That may be.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:39 PM
Sep 2014

Is the moral then, that atheists aren't perfect either? If so ... got it. Spot on!

Anecdotally, Matt Dillahunty's experience was to become more liberal politically when he came to the realization that what he had always believed about God couldn't possibly be true. So that happens.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
9. Maybe we're just looking at it wrong.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 05:40 PM
Sep 2014

Rand Paul . . . . . . Ayn Rand . . . . . . Dawkins
(libertarian) . . . . .(libertarian)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .(atheist) . . . . . . . (atheist)

Get it? Ayn Rand is the missing link!

Kidding.
I agree. The article is dung.



 

rug

(82,333 posts)
12. I wouldn't dismiss it so cavalierly.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:03 PM
Sep 2014

Werleman is writing about a problem in something he's spent a lot of time in.

http://www.cjwerleman.com/

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
14. He may as well have said, Why would any atheist be Libertarian?
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:20 PM
Sep 2014

The number of libertarian atheists was a jumping off point, not *the* point.

And come on, you know this is sloppy use of statistics.

According to the American Values Survey, a mere 7 percent of Americans identify as “consistently libertarian.” Compared to the general population, libertarians are significantly more likely to be white (94 percent), young (62 percent under 50) and male (68 percent). You know, almost identical to the demographic makeup of atheists – white (95 percent), young (65 percent under 50) and male (67 percent). So there’s your first clue.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
15. As I said
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:24 PM
Sep 2014

His points about the free market and libertarians is valid.
And he might have met a few atheist libertarians. But he doesn't show how atheist in general are libertarians.
My experience is they are not.
His stats are useless and the polls show that most atheist are liberal, not libertarians.
And why does the article use two men who are not both.
Because it's good fodder for the Dawk8n haters?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
18. That's not his statement.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:28 PM
Sep 2014

His statement is there are a disproportionate number of libertarians that are atheist.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
21. I did
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:38 PM
Sep 2014

And his statement about atheist drawn to libertarians is not substantiate by the data.
Do you have evidence otherwise.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
23. He states the demographics of self-identified libertarians closely correlate the demographics of
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:41 PM
Sep 2014

self-identified atheists. Neither of which match the demographics of the U.S. at large.

It's in the second paragraph.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
25. It's a misuse of stats
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:48 PM
Sep 2014

That shows nothing.
The race of NFL running backs is the same as students at Clemson.
Are most running backs from Clemson or are most Clemson students running backs?
Surely you see how useless these numbers are. The demographics overlap, it says nothing about these groups overlapping.
The can be mostly separate groups sharing few members. He doesn't show it as otherwise.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
27. You're not saying that because we look alike, we must be the same people, are you?
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:54 PM
Sep 2014

Because that is what we are being asked to conclude.

You know, I was trying to find something that had something meaningful to say about this, statistically speaking. I found an amusing spot. If we were to count the atheists that post on DU ... I think may be more than 39.


 

rug

(82,333 posts)
28. That is not the conclusion offered as you well know.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:56 PM
Sep 2014

So, what do you think of libertarian atheists?

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
30. I think they need a political education, and to have their heads examined.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 07:01 PM
Sep 2014

Same as I think about Libertarians in general. On the subject of atheist libertarians, I also have suspicions about which conspiracy theories they may subscribe to. That would probably be unfair conjecture, but still...

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
33. Which kind
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 07:02 PM
Sep 2014

Bill Maher or Ayn Rand?
Because after his mistaken premise about atheists, he then only talks as if their is one type of libertarian

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
34. He makes it clear in the first paragraph who he's referring to.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 07:04 PM
Sep 2014
To believe that markets operate and exist in a state of nature is, in itself, to believe in the supernatural.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
24. He is only counting
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:44 PM
Sep 2014

Those who are strongly libertarian and not including more moderate libertarians.
And has no stats on the percent of libertarian atheists.
His statement is not backed up.
Why are you so resistant to the opposing facts here.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
26. Why are you so resistant to the notion of libertarian atheists?.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:53 PM
Sep 2014

Do you think they're not atheists?

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
29. Of course there are
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:57 PM
Sep 2014

But the idea that atheists are "more drawn" to libertarians has no evidence to back it up.
I have clearly shown that atheist are no more likely to be libertarians and libertarians are no more likely to be atheist.
This premise in the article is without merit.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
31. The author is a well-known activist and speaker.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 07:01 PM
Sep 2014

I don't think he'd spend his time writing on outliers. I expect he's encountered enough of it.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
35. Every skeptic should know
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 07:05 PM
Sep 2014

Not to ignore the data (which he does) and rely on anicdotal subjective experience (which he also does)

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
37. Any one should know not to ignore the data. But this isn't a monograph.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 07:07 PM
Sep 2014

He is talking about the problem of libertarian atheists.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
38. Which is fine
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 07:09 PM
Sep 2014

For the small percentage of them.
My contention is his "they are more drawn to", they don't appear to be.
Especially Objectivism, which is really what he is talking about.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
40. That is the discussion
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 07:15 PM
Sep 2014

He implies a larger group than statistics show.
In fact he implies this is a problem in atheism.
There are atheist in jail, I don't think criminality is a problem for atheism either.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
41. I see you're making good on your threat.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 08:12 PM
Sep 2014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=152345

Too bad atheism has nothing to do with libertarianism.

And I'm so sorry that it's not going as well as expected.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
42. It's going exactly as expected.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 08:24 PM
Sep 2014

One might even say predictable now that you're here.

Actually, atheism literally has nothing to do with anything. Yet it is promoted so vigorously as the way to the future. How odd.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
43. You sure seem to post about it a fucking lot
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 08:27 PM
Sep 2014

if it has "nothing to do with anything." You need a reminder of the number of times you have posted about "nothing"?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
45. As a matter of fact, I think it does mean something which should be followed.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 08:30 PM
Sep 2014

Would you prefer I make a secret facebook page instead?

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
48. I would prefer you stop acting like
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 08:39 PM
Sep 2014

you don't have a Google alert for articles about atheists that you gleefully run in here to post about in your normal passive-aggressive, who-me manner. Own up to what you are doing. And stop complaining about what others do in other groups or other places. Are you going to pretend you don't post about this group and about A/A in Interfaith? Are you going to pretend you don't have private conversations (on here or on a different medium) about the same? Whatever, man. I'm sure you'll keep up the same schtick. Those that actually read this group regularly clearly see what you do for what it is.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
55. No, Goblimnonger, this is the discussion board of DU.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 08:46 PM
Sep 2014

Try facebook. Its settings can give you any semblance of reality you desire.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
44. Oh noes!!1!
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 08:27 PM
Sep 2014

Puh-Leeze don't post anymore threads about atheists, rug, I can't stand all of these attacks on us since you warned me...

The pictures are a nice touch, but the effort is still an epic fail.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
46. Unlike you, I can tell the difference between atheism and atheists.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 08:32 PM
Sep 2014

I'm sorry you consider articles about atheism to be personal attacks but there you have it.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
50. Thank Dawkins there are experts like you to set me straight.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 08:39 PM
Sep 2014

I'm sure other atheists are just as grateful.

For the entertainment value.


beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
58. No you're special.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 08:50 PM
Sep 2014

Random people on street corners don't follow me back to my group and watch everything we do.

And then complain about it in here.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
64. Looks like most of the Tea Partiers are part of the Christian right too.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 11:05 PM
Sep 2014

Interesting that the article is from the Religion News Service and cites info from the Public Religion Research Institute.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
67. I was being facetious
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 08:49 AM
Sep 2014

The poll doesn't show Catholics to more likely be libertarians or TPers than they show atheist "drawn to" libertarianism.
I was making the point that the OP made a statement without merit.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
81. Yeah I got that when I viewed the poll and article.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 09:36 PM
Sep 2014

That's why I did the same with the tea party.

The op reeks of desperation.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
73. What I wrote was nonsense
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 12:14 PM
Sep 2014

equal to the OP claiming atheists are disproportionally drawn to libertarianism.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
77. That is not the OP's claim at all.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 12:26 PM
Sep 2014

The claim is that libertarians are disproportionately drawn to atheism. That is a very different claim.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
79. No, read it again
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 07:51 PM
Sep 2014

quote:
"Why atheists are disproportionately drawn to libertarianism"
How much clearer can that be?

And even what you think it was isn't really supported. Unaffiliated, a bit more than the general public, but no data about atheism.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
71. Simple. Historically they are socially conservative.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 11:25 AM
Sep 2014

Now, how does tu quoque address the article?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
65. This is no surprise, is it?
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 04:00 AM
Sep 2014

The fact that many libertarians do not have religious affiliations seems very logical, as they tend to reject those kinds of institutions in general. Whether they have religious beliefs is a different question and one hard to answer because of the politics involved.

And the fact that atheists as a demographic have a variety of political inclinations isn't surprising either. There is nothing about atheism per se that would lead one to a more liberal/progressive position. However, demographics are clear that the majority of self-identified atheists also identity with the left.

That might be a chicken/egg dilemma though.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
66. In this country especially
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 08:44 AM
Sep 2014

one party is far more secular than the other.
When you have a party that embraces the idea that this is a "Christian Nation" and wants all laws to be in accordance with the Bible.
It's not hard to see why more atheist would be liberal and support the Democrats.
There really isn't any data to show that atheist are more likely to be libertarians.
Libertarians would be more secular, yes, but as you said, as far as belief...?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
70. One of the reasons I think this article is important is
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 11:24 AM
Sep 2014

that it points out that Libertarians, who are more often associated with the Republican party, are also showing higher numbers of atheists within their ranks.

This is in direct contrast to those within the party whose agenda includes a theocracy. That actually could be good news for our side, as it looks like a massive schism could be in the making.

I agree that there is not data to support that an atheist is more likely to be a libertarian. In fact, the data clearly shows that an atheist is more likely to be a democrat.

But I believe there is data to support that there is a significant number of libertarians who are atheists, or at least religiously unafilliated.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
72. Unaffiliated
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 12:11 PM
Sep 2014

and atheist are different.
As seen in this study:

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

I don't see where there are a "significant number" of atheist libertarians.

And what ever the percent, are they Bill Maher libertarian or Rand Paul libertarian, which is really Ayn Rand's Objectivism.

The author acts as if all libertarians follow Rand, and that is far from true.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
76. I am, of course, quite aware that these are different things.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 12:23 PM
Sep 2014

And while there may not be hard data at this time, I think the author makes a reasonable case for why this might be true. But without hard data, it's difficult to take anything other than a position based on hypotheticals.

edhopper

(33,218 posts)
80. Yes,
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 07:56 PM
Sep 2014

he should have left it as addressing libertarians he has met and not try to make a larger point misusing data or with no data at all.
His erroneous statements make the article suspect.
Either that or just take on the libertarian/free market problem without bringing atheism into it.

Also using pictures of two people who are not both is another problem.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
78. So many different concepts that we first label and then try to quantify under those labels.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 01:17 PM
Sep 2014

There are the self-labeled atheists who embrace supernatural concepts but reject the Biblical God, and there are atheists who demand empirical evidence for all claims.

There are self-labeled Libertarians who might be better described as anarchists, and those who simply don't want to pay taxes, but are perfectly fine with passing laws for other people to live by.

Statistics are useful in that they can measure things. sometimes.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
68. It's not so much that I don't grasp it, as I don't believe it.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 10:13 AM
Sep 2014

I'm an evidence-based skeptic. There's plenty of evidence what happens, today, and in the past, in the face of market-regulated unchecked capitalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire

Today it isn't QUITE as bad, partially because consumers have visibility into the means by which companies produce things, and partially because of the labor protections we've enacted here in the US (enforced by government, not private entities), but offshore labor seems mostly immune that check and balance as well, so we still see a lot or problems around labor conditions, whether sewing clothing, or oil, or rare earths, etc.

PLENTY of evidence what tends to happen without government regulation.

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