Religion
Related: About this forumDefending the Catholic Church and the sexual abuse of children: A timely reminder
Should posters who criticize priests who've raped children not refer to the fact that they're Catholic?
Not point the finger at the Church, its policy of protecting child predators and its history of institutionalized child sexual abuse?
We're told that priests have been defrocked, as if that's enough.
That they're individuals who don't 'represent' the Church.
We're told it's old news, even though reports of abuse continue.
That Pope Francis met with a few survivors and considers the charges very grave crimes comparable only to a priest celebrating a "black Mass" as part of a Satanic ritual.
That the new Pope is going make sure perpetrators face justice, even though all they've done is the announce the formation of an advisory panel while refusing to surrender those they're still protecting.
Those of us who are frustrated at the lack of progress made by the Vatican are in good company:
The committee is gravely concerned that the Holy See has not acknowledged the extent of the crimes committed, has not taken the necessary measures to address cases of child sexual abuse and to protect children, and has adopted policies and practices which have led to the continuation of the abuse by, and the impunity of, the perpetrators
Due to a code of silence imposed on all members of the clergy under penalty of excommunication, cases of child sexual abuse have hardly ever been reported to the law enforcement authorities in the countries where such crimes occurred.
Committee chair, Kirsten Sandberg enumerated some major findings, that pedophile priests were sent to new parishes or other countries without police being informed, that the Vatican never insisted on bishops reporting abuse to police, and that known abusers still have access to children. Barbara Blaine of SNAP said,
"This report gives hope to the hundreds of thousands of deeply wounded and still suffering clergy sex abuse victims across the world. Now it's up to secular officials to follow the U.N.'s lead and step in to safeguard the vulnerable because Catholic officials are either incapable or unwilling to do so."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal
Why should we refrain from posting about priests who use their authority to rape children in the Religion forum?
Because other authority figures rape kids too?
Really?
For people like Andrew Brown and others who defend the Catholic Church by using the "But everyone else does it" excuse I give you Greta Christina:
If everyone else jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge, would you do it too?
And if everyone else raped children, would you defend it?
The child rape scandal in the Catholic Church (like Stephen Fry, I am no longer willing to call it pedophilia or molestation or child abuse) has been heating up lately, with new stories about the widespread rape of children by priests in Germany, an admission from the senior cleric in Ireland that he was present at meetings where two abused teenagers were made to sign vows of silence, questions about Pope Benedicts handling of an abuse case when he was an archbishop, and more.
So via Pharyngula, we have the story of one Andrew Brown of the Guardian, who has written a defense of the Catholic Church child rape scandal and an excoriation of those who are condemning it on the grounds that everyone else does it, too.
"From this it emerges that the frequency of child abuse among Catholic priests is not remarkable "
and:
"This is vile, but whether it is more vile than the record of any other profession is not obvious."
and:
"There are, however, some fragments of figures from the outside world suggesting that not many professions do better. "
Etc.
***
What makes the Catholic Church child rape scandal so morally repugnant, and what is making it have the effect of turning people away from the Catholic Church, is not the rapes themselves. Of course the rapes themselves are morally repugnant. And of course we need to be looking at whether there is some institutional force that makes Catholic priests more likely to rape children than other people in positions of trust and authority: such as the celibacy requirement for the priesthood, or the Churchs fear and loathing of sexuality as a central part of their theology, or the special power that priests have because they purport to have a special line to God, or religions veneration and armor against criticism which makes people less comfortable making accusations against it. (Indeed, its fair to look at whether its even true that Catholic priests rape children at a higher rate than other trusted authority figures.) But it is certainly the case that child rape does occur in other fields where adults are in positions of trust and authority with children: teachers, coaches, etc. Browns not wrong about that.
That is not where the depth of the scandal lies. What makes the Catholic child rape scandal so morally repugnant, and what is giving it the effect of turning people away from the Catholic Church in horror, is the way the Church handled it.
The Church knew about widespread reports of priests repeatedly molesting children and instead of acting to protect the children, they acted to protect the priests, and themselves. Thus deliberately and knowingly putting more children in the way of known child rapists, solely for their pure self-interest.
Repeatedly. Time and time again. In every part of the world. As a cold-blooded matter of Church policy.
That is the scandal.
The fact that some adults in positions of trust and authority over children violated that trust by raping them? That is a tragedy. The fact that the Catholic Church knew about it and instead of reporting the child rapists to the police, they deliberately shielded them from detection and criminal investigation? The fact that the Church moved child rapists from parish to parish, thus exposing even more children to them? The fact that they lied to law enforcement, concealed evidence, even paid off witnesses purely to protect their organization from looking bad?
That, Mr. Brown, is the scandal.
You fucking moral imbecile.
Save the outrage for the criminals, not those that are outraged by their crimes.
rug
(82,333 posts)This might help.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Hmmm, that tutorial didn't seem to work very well. This one may do the trick.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)We'll see if he actually addresses the issue.
rug
(82,333 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Do you think I am obliged to discuss certain topics?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)I'll rephrase: I don't discuss flamebait. Anything else is on the table.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)flamebait.
rug
(82,333 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)is fooling anyone?
Because it's not. If you think it is, it's kind of sad. Actually, it's kind of sad regardless of whether you think it's working or not.
rug
(82,333 posts)Flamebait needs sound effects and a dog whistle to summon the bucket brigade.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)You always dismiss it. That you declare it flamebait means fuckall to me about whether it is flamebait. You do everything you can to not have this discussion. I would recommend that if you don't want to have the discussion, then let the grownups have the discussion and you can just trash thread. Or ignore the user if you wish. Posting videos like you have is just you throwing a tantrum while the adults are trying to talk.
rug
(82,333 posts)Since you enjoy meta so much, go see what the OP was posting before she put this up.
It is flamebait.
I never dismiss the topic. I do dismiss the motives of the usual suspects who delight in the topic.
okasha
(11,573 posts)No one here--NO ONE--has defended the sexual abuse of children. I do, however, see a number of people quietly ignoring that implication of the thread title, while tsk-tsking that the thread's actual intended targets decline to participate.
Did you really think no one would notice?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Here's your chance to participate and actually add something of substance.
okasha
(11,573 posts)No one here has defended the sexual abuse of children. Your accusation is completely--and I assume deliberately--false.
I have never said that posts regarding pedophile clergy do not belong in.this group. Go find yourself another windmill.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And while you're at it, please note that a poster in this very thread has stated that this thread doesn't belong in here using the same "reasoning" cited in the op.
okasha
(11,573 posts)If that's not what you meant, rephrase it.
Repeat: not my argument.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Some posters stated that threads about pedophile priests do not belong in this forum, they used the reasons cited by the authors in the op.
My point is that those threads, posts and complaints do belong here and that the excuses used by Andrew Brown are equally invalid when applied to such discussions.
I am not saying anyone on DU excused predators, I would never say that unless there was proof and hopefully by the time that happened the offender would be banned.
phil89
(1,043 posts)The sexual abuse of children and some people here support the church. They are part of the problem.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Who, exactly, has defended the sexual abuse of children? Do you even know what those words mean?
The church under JPII and Benedict attempted to conceal the problem and ultimately failed. Despite public statements to the contrsry, I suspect Ratzinger was forced to resign for his part in the scandal.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)I seem to remember you saying how horrible he was. But after all the things that the RCC has done and the things said about the vicitms, you are just here defending them as one of their key apologists in this forum.
That's just appalling.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Can you show me even one post in which I defended the RCC's cover-up of the pedophile scandal? Let me help you out: you can't because I've never made any such post.
Your lack of reading comprehension--to put the kindest possible construction on your misstatement--is appalling in an English teacher.
And yep, Dawkins' lack of understanding about the permanent effects of both rape and child molestation is pretty appalling, too.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)that are even close to what you say about Dawkins "lack of understanding"?
And nice jab about reading comprehension especially when you are deliberately attempting to change my position. Or are we pretending that you don't know what an apologist is? That's what I said you were. I still stand by that. Your creation of a strawman is quite dishonest. And you seemed to understand what an apologist is in this post. Plus you added a lot of shitty attitude in that post.
okasha
(11,573 posts)My alleged failure to criticize the RCC at a level you consider sufficient constitutes being an "apologist?" An apology is an active defense or explanation, and one who makes such a statement is an apologist. Somehow I don't recall ever doing that in relation to the pedophile priests scandal.
But I'd be happy to accept your definition that not doing something is a positive action. (There's a bit of irony in that I'm sure you've missed.) I'm not a scientist, but according to you,k that shouldn't stop me from winning the Nobel Prize for oh, say, physics. When do I fly to Stockholm? More to the point, when do I get the money?
Seriously, this is what you learned as a debater and debate coach?
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)OK. My mistake.
Your ad homs are tiresome.
okasha
(11,573 posts)apologist
[uh-pol-uh-jist]
Word Origin
noun
1.
a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)would also be one that attempts to deflect criticism. Something you are fantastic at.
okasha
(11,573 posts)I appreciate the compliment. I know you're trying really hard to be "fantastic" at it too, so I'll offer the observation that "tu quoque" doesn't quite cut it in either logic or effectiveness.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)əˈpäləjist
noun
a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial.
Comprehension saves lives.
Gelliebeans
(5,043 posts)To trivialize this discussion on behalf of the victims that deserve justice in a system where they have been ignored for the most part.
rug
(82,333 posts)With flamebait, mockery will do. The OP was schooled elsewhere and this is her juvenile response.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Gelliebeans
(5,043 posts)It is not helpful to ignore the situation. It should be investigated thoroughly like any other type of rape or abuse and tried in transparency.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Maybe he thinks throwing the dead weight under the bus will silence his critics.
LuvNewcastle
(16,844 posts)thinking when they chose to move those priests to other parishes rather than reporting them to the police, or at least defrocking them. It looks as if they didn't consider child rape to be a serious issue. One also wonders how many in the hierarchy are guilty of the same crime.
pokerfan
(27,677 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)From a 2001 Salon article
In a confidential 2001 letter, the new pope ordered bishops to keep allegations of pedophilia secret.
Lawyers acting for abuse victims claim it was designed to prevent the allegations from becoming public knowledge or being investigated by the police. They accuse Ratzinger of committing a clear obstruction of justice.
The letter, concerning very grave sins, was sent from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican office that once presided over the Inquisition and was overseen by Ratzinger. It spells out to bishops the churchs position on a number of matters, ranging from celebrating the Eucharist with a non-Catholic to sexual abuse by a cleric with a minor below the age of 18 years. Ratzingers letter states that the church can claim jurisdiction in cases where abuse has been perpetrated with a minor by a cleric. The letter states that the churchs jurisdiction begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age and lasts for 10 years.
It orders that preliminary investigations into any claims of abuse should be sent to Ratzingers office, which has the option of referring them back to private tribunals in which the functions of judge, promoter of justice, notary and legal representative can validly be performed for these cases only by priests.
Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret, Ratzingers letter concludes. Breaching the pontifical secret at any time while the 10-year jurisdiction order is operating carries penalties, including the threat of excommunication.
Father Tom Doyle interpreted the letter for BBC:
But what you really have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse by the clergy to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen.
You've got a written policy that says that the Vatican will control these situations and you also have I think clear written evidence of the fact that all they are concerned about is containing and controlling the problem.
Nowhere in any of these documents does it say anything about helping the victims.
The only thing it does is say that they can impose fear on the victims and punish the victims for discussing or disclosing what happened to them.
*
Cardinal Ratzinger, now as Pope, could tomorrow get up and say: 'Here's the policy: full disclosure to the civil authorities, absolute isolation and dismissal of any accused and proven and convicted clerics, complete openness and transparency, complete openness of all financial situations, stop all barriers to the legal process and completely co-operate with the civil authorities everywhere.'
The last statement begs the question, why can't Pope Francis do that now?
Gelliebeans
(5,043 posts)If I am reading this correctly father Doyle was thrown out on his ear for revealing this? And we wonder why the system is stifled and there isn't justice for the victims.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Rape a kid or cover up the crime and you're rewarded with retirement in one of the many splendid palaces in Vatican City, speak up about it and you're done.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)they have some massively convoluted explanation for why you are wrong. What a shock.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Posting videos as a means of diversion is easier than explaining why threads about priest rapists don't belong in this forum.
Gelliebeans
(5,043 posts)Opportunity to bring attention to those that are trying to get this out in the open (Father Doyle and others) Collectively, something is better than doing nothing or taking the Vatican's position of dragging their feet?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Anyone who criticizes or questions his dedication to change is bullied and silenced.
This is a bone of contention with LBGT and reproductive rights supporters.
We are still waiting for the Hope and Change we were promised.
rug
(82,333 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)structure is vital to control the flocks. They are willing to sacrifice thousands of children to maintain that lie. How can anyone belong to such a church.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)They have the ability to save millions of lives in AIDS stricken third world countries, but not only do they refuse to allow the use of condoms, they actively spread lies about their effectiveness, some have even claimed that condoms spread the disease.
This has all been documented and it's still not enough to keep people from filling the coffers.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)Gelliebeans
(5,043 posts)These policies put forth do hurt women and children.
http://www.latimes.com/world/population/la-fg-population-matters5-20120729-html-htmlstory.html
"My husband and I skip lunch if there is no money," Naz said as she dished rice and shrimp sauce into eight plastic bowls in the 10-by-12-foot room where the family eats and sleeps.
This was not the life Naz wanted. She and her husband, who sells coconut drinks from a pushcart, agreed early in their marriage to stop at three children. Though a devout Catholic, she took birth control pills in defiance of priests' instructions at Sunday Mass.
But after her third child was born, the mayor of Manila with the blessing of Roman Catholic bishops halted the distribution of contraceptives at public clinics to promote "a culture of life." The order put birth control pills and other contraceptives out of reach for millions of poor Filipinos, who could not afford to buy them at private pharmacies.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)So no I still have never heard it.
Gelliebeans
(5,043 posts)You should read my sourced material instead of just dismissing out of hand? You may learn something that you didn't know before? Since it isn't my expertise but that of the LA Times reporter that completed a huge series on overpopulation and about how the church has refused to allow contraception in third world countries.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)average person? That there isn't a hierarchy, with the Pope nearest to God?
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Leontius
(2,270 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Since you won't provide arguments then I must assume you think that the Church teaches that priests are on an equal status with the common person. But from what I've seen, which I admit is a limited sample, the Catholic priests are held in very high trust.
And while a parent might be skeptical of leaving their child in the custody of a Scout Leader, a coach, or a teacher, they don't have that same feeling with regard to a priest. The fact that most parishioners hold priests in such high trust isn't a coincidence but comes from the teachings of the church.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)One was the new leader of the Russian Orthodox church in San Francisco, Bishop Vladimir. His bitter enemy was Dr. Nicholas Russel, a revolutionary who had fled Russia to implant his radical ideas in what he hoped would be the fertile soil of America.
Of all the ugly exchanges between these two men of diametrically opposed political and religious views, none was uglier than the charge that Bishop Vladimir had sodomized children. There was overwhelming evidence to support it, but a combination of factors - the authorities' unwillingness to investigate a high-ranking churchman, Victorian reticence and the bishop's cunningly aggressive tactics - allowed an obvious case of pederasty to go unpunished.
It was among the first - though not, unfortunately, the last - cover-ups of sexual misconduct by a religious leader.
...
Russel had been part of the great idealistic youth movement in Russia in the 1860s and '70s that planted the seeds of the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917. As a leftist and "the most prominent nihilist in town" - nihilists were Russian progressives who believed in science, not religion - Russel clearly had an ideological agenda to damage the church and the Russian state, Emmons writes. But the feud between him and Vladimir quickly became poisonously personal.
...
Finally, the bishop departed for another clerical post in Russia without being censured or disciplined in any way. Russel, broke and disillusioned with America, left San Francisco but went on to have a long and colorful career, including serving as Senate president in Hawaii's first territorial legislature.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I'd like to think that if this happened today Vladimir wouldn't be able to escape so easily.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)I'm sick of hearing about the wonderful benefits of religion.
rug
(82,333 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Unable to come up with a valid reason they're simply resorting to the exact tactics criticized in the op.
rug
(82,333 posts)Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Is it because of some disdain you have for the RCC? Or is it some disdain you have for those DUers who see a glimmer of hope coming from Pope Francis?
I really don't see what pedophilia has to do with religion, anymore than it has to do with boy scouts or Uncle Ernie. Lots of environments attract predatory pedophiles. This is not something new.
Pedophilia is a disease, which also happens to be a crime, though criminal definitions vary considerably compared to medical definitions. When a particular disease becomes a crime depends very much on circumstances.
It is true that the RCC has traditionally covered up many scandals, including pedophile priests. The church fucked up, big time, in how it handled this issue. This resulted in alienating many Catholics from the Vatican, which has paid heavily and continues to pay.
Now, they have a spiritual leader who is not shy about confronting this issue. He has shown no indication of wanting to continue any cover up, but instead wants to deal openly with it.
Lots of diseases are vile, but we don't condemn those who show compassion for the sick. The church mishandled pedophilia, there is no doubt about that, but society, as a whole, has mishandled it for millennia. This is not a new disease, but one that has been covered up for many reasons, by institutions and families, since time immemorial.
It's good that an institution like the RCC and Pope Francis are finally dealing with it. I wish them well, because no other government or institution has yet figured out how to deal with it.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)Had former parishioners not pressed the issue in *civil* court, things would continue much the same. This isn't a problem exclusive to the RCC. Preservation of the institution is paramount in most denominations, I would venture to guess. There is anecdotal evidence to that effect, at any rate.
As to criticism of Pope Francis, I am given to understand that there are all sorts of barriers placed on the path to true reform. Whatever. Whether the institution or the man, corruption is very definitely present.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)The parishioners are the driving force for transparency and change. Preservation of the institution is paramount for the leaders and beneficiaries of any institution, be it religious, governmental, educational or whatever.
This fall will be a very interesting time for Francis and the church. As he studies the results of his "survey", let us see if he is as flexible as some think he may be. I think his church is at a critical point in terms of its survival. It has been losing its influence for many years, an empire in decline.
PoutrageFatigue
(416 posts)And catholicism is a religion. But you seriously don't see the connection between kiddie - fiddling and religion?
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)The connection is not religion but the abuse of power that comes with being a leader/mentor. The religious connection is incidental, as it is with scoutmasters, teachers, cops, family members who engage in the same conduct.
Are we to attack the entertainment industry because of similar conduct by "popular" pedophiles such as Michael Jackson, Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris. Hollywood is rife with pedophiles and the cover up is much bigger than that of the RCC.
But if you want to join the lynch mob mentality and blame religion for it, that's up to you.
PoutrageFatigue
(416 posts)Response to PoutrageFatigue (Reply #73)
Post removed
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)By attacking its critics you are enabling it to continue to protect pedophile priests and those who cover up their crimes.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Yes because it's the Catholic Church that is the real victim here. Thank God it has you to defend it on DU.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)but I was reading some more responses and noticed your last few sentences:
" This is not a new disease, but one that has been covered up for many reasons, by institutions and families, since time immemorial.
It's good that an institution like the RCC and Pope Francis are finally dealing with it. I wish them well, because no other government or institution has yet figured out how to deal with it. "
The reason that people haven't been able to pin down the pedo-ring that the RCC operates is because they are a sovereign nation that plays three card monty with priests when they get caught, and when the heat comes down on someone important they get "recalled" and generally forgotten about.
The new pope has made some gestures, but that's all they are so far. Plus you don't trust the criminals to clean up their crimes, like when we let BP do the cleanup for their spill and didn't give proper over site.
To quote your wife: "Can anyone deny that using this phrase to score a point is really foul in light of the horrendous nature of what has been done to these children?
How low will you go?"
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Nor do I see the RCC as a pedophile ring, any more than I see the entertainment industry as a pedophile ring. They are both guilty of covering up enormous abuse. The RCC is paying heavily for that, as it should. I hope Francis cleans it up.
To use pedophilia as a weapon against religion is disgusting. It is on a level with Pat Robertson blaming Haiti's earthquake on devil worship.
When pedophiles are exposed in the secular world, we don't see such outrage against the organizations, institutions and professions they belong to, even though those entities tend to facilitate and nurture pedophilia. I see no outrage toward the entertainment industry, which is riddled with pedophiles. I see no outrage toward the BSA and other youth groups which are also rife with pedophiles.
Why is it that some atheists have to use this disease to slam religion in general. Isn't the mockery and derision doing it for you? Do you really need to stoop this low?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)"To use pedophilia as a weapon against religion is disgusting"
To continue to excuse it is much worse.
But but but it's not the Church's fault that it allowed institutionalized child sexual abuse to thrive for centuries and continues to protect the pedophile priests to this day!!! And even if it is, it doesn't matter because other people rape kids too!!!
No one sets the bar lower than you.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)We're not talking about the BSA (got stats on that one?) or the entertainment industry because this is the religion group, you know, the one you like to police and bully people when you feel they might be slightly off topic about religion (well, selectively bully, never see you call out a believer).
The RCC has a lot to answer for and every time it comes up you and your ilk are always here to polish their image and wash the mud off.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Pick one.
And while you're at it provide proof of your assertion that the pope is actually doing something about the problem other than pr campaigning.
Once you've found some please forward it to the UN because they're waiting for it too.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)I have no "proof" other than what you posted, that he has met with victims and voiced his intentions.
That, IMO is doing something. We shall have to wait and see if he acts further. One can only hope that he does, and soon.
Everyone here in Rome is waiting and hoping that Francis will do the right thing. They have waited a long time for a Pope who would clean house. Let's see if they have the right guy.
Patience is a virtue. The last time they put a clean up guy in he was dead within weeks. Francis needs to consolidate his authority and find out exactly who and what he is dealing with. I think we'll see and hear some positive stuff in the coming months. I could be wrong, but that's what I'm hearing on the street.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The excuses used for wanting critics silenced:
"This is vile, but whether it is more vile than the record of any other profession is not obvious."
"There are, however, some fragments of figures from the outside world suggesting that not many professions do better."
Instead of telling us to shut up about it, maybe you should stop excusing the church and it's institutionalized child sex abuse by using the "But everybody else rapes kids too!" tactic.
Because it make it look like you're showing more compassion for the church than its victims.
Get it now?
on edit: "Everyone here in Rome is waiting and hoping that Francis will do the right thing"?
That explains a lot.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)The church, while not literally condoning pedophilia, it certainly tolerates it and has for centuries. Seems to me that it's more important to keep the image of sacred priests clean rather than protecting children.
What makes the Catholic Church so special that the people are willing to put up with this terrible situation?
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)The Catholic Church is reeling at present and must make radical changes, if it is to survive. I have many friends in Italy who consider themselves Catholic, but none attend church. The irony is that the religion may well outlive the church.
I don't think the church creates pedophiles, but it has certainly created conditions that foster pedophilia and has sheltered known pedophiles. I doubt that pedophilia has been condoned by the hierarchy, but it has been known for ages and covered up. Now they are paying the price.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)do people continue to attend Catholic Church? There are lots of other choices if you wish to worship Jesus.
I recently was at a celebration of life ceremony at an Episcopal Church and it seemed to have a lot of the traditional trappings of the Catholic Church but seemed to me to be way more progressive.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)I guess it is because that's the way they were raised and old habits are hard to break. Maybe some of our Catholic friends can answer that question.
I have never attended a Catholic mass and haven't attended any church service in over 30 years, and that was as a courtesy to my ex MIL.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Catholic doctrine holds that sacraments can only be administered by priests who can trace their succession back to the original founders of the Christian church. While the Roman church recognizes most Orthodox and Catholic churches as having maintained this succession, they believe Protestants have not and therefore any sacrament dispensed by a Protestant minister is not valid in the eyes of God.
That said, I don't know how many workaday Catholics actually know about this, much less buy into it, but for those that do, it would certainly keep them far and away from other churches.
rug
(82,333 posts)The Anglican Church claims apostolic succession. This issue with Rome came to a head in this 1896 papal bull which essentially stated the Church of England lost apostolic succession, and with it the validity of its orders and Eucharist, under Elizabeth I when changes were made to the rite of ordination.
The Church of England responded to this argument in its own document, Saepius Officio, written entirely in Latin (a fine example of 19th century snark).
What is interesting now is that Anglicans have communion with many Orthodox and Old Catholic churches whose apostolic succession is not questioned by Rome. Consequently, there are now hundreds of Anglican priests who have apostolic succession through those bishops.
It is endlessly fascinating.
okasha
(11,573 posts)by bringing newly consecrated Lutheran bishops into the Succession. The consecrators of a new Lutheran bishop now include an Episcopal bishop and vice-versa.
The Methodists better run while they can.
rug
(82,333 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Anyone who takes their faith seriously should understand it. There are distinct differences in theology, ecclesiology and practices that make the difference. Not to make a ridiculous analogy, but I will, not all coffee is the same.
That said, many people stay in a religion out of habit.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)It seems to me that if people were to find that the doors of their existing church were closed forever, they'd be lost having no idea what to look for.
rug
(82,333 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)You seem to be suggesting that religious believers are befuddled people bereft of direction without religion.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)I am trying to say that I believe that lots of people go to church because it's traditional and if their church closed they might have a hard time deciding on a different church. In different words, how many Catholics know how their beliefs differ from the Episcopal Church. I admit that's not a very convincing argument.
rug
(82,333 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)This "new pope" has for example participated in the extraction of the Papal Nuncio to the Dominican Republic, Jozef Wesolowski to the Vatican to avoid prosecution under the laws of the Dominican Republic.
New pope same as the old pope.
Rather amazing that an alleged atheist would engage in this sort of apologetics for pederasty.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Have some caffeine, you might feel better.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)to be forgiven of such outbursts.
Not speaking for Warren but I for one am saddened that in this day an age we have millions of people supporting a wealthy, dictatorial, backwards church that taxes the poor to increase their wealth as well as protecting pedophiles.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I suppose the UN is bigoted too.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)The RCC is a singular organization with a clear hierarchy.
The entertainment industry is not. And I would like to see some source for the fact that the entertainment industry is rife with pedophiles and that there is a huge cover-up going on.
But here's how things are different in teaching. Teachers are mandatory reporters. When a teacher has sexual contact with a student, they lose their license and get turned over to the police. Yes, there are teachers that are pedophiles. I will put up the record of how the education profession has dealt with that reality over how the RCC has any given day. And there is absolutely ZERO indication that the new boss is any different than the old boss in this regard. NOTHING has changed as far as policy. Oh, he said it was a "really bad thing" but no indication of anything changing and even the UN realizes this pretty clearly.
Trillo
(9,154 posts)The actions of a few create intolerance for the many. I'm thinking particularly of student policies, and things like zero tolerance or school-to-prison pipeline, though it also seems applicable in broader categories. As in this discussion of sexual abuse of kids by RCC. I'm of the mind that society is hardest on kids, for some reason, like they're all little monsters in need of the strictest disciplines.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)that we shouldn't dwell on the church's role or continue to ask questions.
Why some are so insistent not only that we stop talking about the RCC's scandals, but that the people who are doing so are the real enemies worthy of hatred?
Perhaps if the new pope took just one real step, such as, oh I don't know, turning over Bernard Law to the authorities instead of protecting him at the Vatican, we could know he was serious about changing things. But instead he does the only thing we know he does well: say nice words.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child certainly isn't.
Still waiting for proof that the Vatican is actually doing something.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)The phrase I hear most when I ask what people think of Francis, here in Italy, is "Era tempo, ora vediamo!" (It was time, now let's see!)
Two of the most common words in Italian are "Pazienza!" and "Domani!"
Meanwhile, enjoy your day.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And I think we've waited long enough.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)That counts for something, right?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Richard Dawkins so much as looks at religion funny and he's crucified in this forum; the Catholic Church and their new pope continue to shield child rapists and their protectors and they get a "Way to go, Brownie!"
Looks like the FOX News guy they hired to change their image earned his paycheck.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The new guy was picked solely to stop the hemorrhaging and prevent outside interference.
If another country was shielding pedophiles no one on DU would dare defend it.