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rug

(82,333 posts)
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 11:50 AM Sep 2014

Atheism has finally found its spiritual leader

Written by Tom Roston
2 hours ago

- snip -

More recently, there’s been the militant atheism espoused by the likes of writer-raconteur Christopher Hitchens, who died in 2011, and evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, who once told a crowd to “ridicule” and “mock” people of faith. Mere believers are low-hanging fruit for Dawkins. He also regularly takes swipes at survivors (be it of child abuse or sexual assault), people with Down syndrome, you name it.

But there may be a parting of the waters. Last week author and neuroscientist Sam Harris’s Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality without Religion was published. Harris is one of the so-called four horsemen of new atheism, along with Hitchens, Dawkins, and philosopher Daniel Dennett. Though Harris doesn’t believe in a supreme power, he is advocating for spirituality, “boundless love” and a belief that “there is more to understanding the human condition than science and secular culture generally admit.”

Waking Up could be called a self-help book for atheists. Not that Harris would want us to do that; he doesn’t run with the touchy-feely crowd. Nevertheless, he’s writing for an audience (myself included) that needs some gentle guidance. We’re talking about a group of people who are primarily skeptics, fiercely individualistic, and mostly non-joiners—those who identify themselves by what they don’t believe in. This is not a crowd that easily rallies around any person or precept. About 10 years ago, an attempt was made amongst some atheists to embrace the label “The Brights,” but it didn’t have legs.

- snip -

Harris writes: “Many of my fellow atheists consider all talk of spirituality to be a sign of mental illness, conscious imposture, or self-deception. This is a problem, because millions of people have had experiences for which spiritual and mystical seem the only terms available.”

http://qz.com/265152/atheism-has-finally-found-its-spiritual-leader/

28 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Atheism has finally found its spiritual leader (Original Post) rug Sep 2014 OP
I thought you despised those who lump certain groups into one category and affiliate them AuntPatsy Sep 2014 #1
Won't be a very productive discussion if the subject isn't the article, but the people posting it... MADem Sep 2014 #3
Not sure where you are coming from in regards to post? AuntPatsy Sep 2014 #17
You're talking about the poster, and not the post. MADem Sep 2014 #19
Here's a comment. rug Sep 2014 #5
Must have misinterpreted other posts, nice to know I was wrong... AuntPatsy Sep 2014 #18
NP, there's been a lot of innuendo in here for some time now. rug Sep 2014 #23
I'm dubious. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2014 #2
The article's headline is sensationalist but it's an interesting analysis of Harris' shift. rug Sep 2014 #6
Interesting take--a bit counter - intuitive, at best. MADem Sep 2014 #7
He has built a very interesting bridge here. cbayer Sep 2014 #4
Dawkins talks of spirituality as well. LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #8
I watched that clip and I think you're right. rug Sep 2014 #9
That's why I have trouble with the concept. LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #10
I went to a wedding between two atheists a few months back MADem Sep 2014 #20
Interesting. LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #21
It was pronounced with INTENT, too. MADem Sep 2014 #22
Not my monkey, not my circus. AtheistCrusader Sep 2014 #11
And in interviews, he has appeared to be a very reluctant leader in this regard. cbayer Sep 2014 #15
It sounds like wordsmithing an otherwise mundane subjective emotional experience into AtheistCrusader Sep 2014 #16
It's hard to find single words to adequately describe the kinds cbayer Sep 2014 #24
It's good to see Harris accepting his spiritual side Starboard Tack Sep 2014 #12
"Atheism" was never looking for one. Goblinmonger Sep 2014 #13
I agree that atheists were never looking for a spiritual leader, but cbayer Sep 2014 #14
You can't always not get what you don't want goldent Sep 2014 #25
Who.needs.it? elleng Sep 2014 #26
I don't think anyone needs it, necessarily, but cbayer Sep 2014 #28
Why do we need a leader? jambo101 Sep 2014 #27

AuntPatsy

(9,904 posts)
1. I thought you despised those who lump certain groups into one category and affiliate them
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 11:57 AM
Sep 2014

With others? Interesting you post this without comment....

MADem

(135,425 posts)
3. Won't be a very productive discussion if the subject isn't the article, but the people posting it...
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 12:09 PM
Sep 2014

Just sayin'....

MADem

(135,425 posts)
19. You're talking about the poster, and not the post.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 07:54 PM
Sep 2014

It never bodes well for discussion when that's how the conversation goes.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
2. I'm dubious.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 11:58 AM
Sep 2014

Although I hadn't realized atheism was seeking a spiritual leader, even if we take that as a starting point, Harris seems an unlikely person to fill that role. I recall reading one of his books a few years back, and basically the entire thrust of the book was 'Radical Muslims are going to get their hands on nuclear weapons, so humanity must abandon religion! It's simply too dangerous in the modern world of WMD.' He didn't exactly come across as a 'boundless love' type, but more of an anti-Pascal, whose new 'wager' suggested that we needed to not believe because chances were that belief would lead to disaster.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
7. Interesting take--a bit counter - intuitive, at best.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 12:16 PM
Sep 2014

Humanity must abandon religion because these people, who are so heavily invested in THEIR religion, to the point that they use it as a justification and excuse for everything they do, to include crimes against women, children and humanity in general, are the problem? Gotta wonder how he proposed to do that! The old "Kill 'em all and let God er, some vague spiritual principle, sort 'em out? (Heavy for the irony impaired, of course!)

I don't see how his proposal solves the problem he postulates--the people he wants to abandon their religion are unlikely to follow his lead, in fact, I could see a fet-wah in his future!!!!

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
4. He has built a very interesting bridge here.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 12:11 PM
Sep 2014

I think he is sincere, but one can never be sure when it comes to people whose income comes from the sale of ideas.

At any rate, I like it that he is not expressing overt hostility towards religion at this time.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
8. Dawkins talks of spirituality as well.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 12:26 PM
Sep 2014


I have the impression that he and Sam are talking about different ideas.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
9. I watched that clip and I think you're right.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 12:54 PM
Sep 2014

Maybe it's because Krauss was sitting next to him.

It's odd that he used the word "reverence" (0:45) for the Milky Way.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
10. That's why I have trouble with the concept.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 01:02 PM
Sep 2014

What does "spiritual" even mean? Hard to describe internal feelings? What?

As for finding a spiritual leader in Sam Harris, he's a good guy, but ... No. Not so.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
20. I went to a wedding between two atheists a few months back
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 08:43 PM
Sep 2014

(very nice party, too) and the word "sacred" was incorporated into the vows/comments at least three times.

I thought that was an interesting use of the word, though I will admit it surprised me to hear it at that particular venue. I always associated it with some sort of religious context (but then again, I always thought the word "dude" referred to either a cool male person from the late sixties/early seventies, or a fancy gentleman in the Wild West--not any person, from child to granny, of any gender). Words do change meanings over time!

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
21. Interesting.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 08:51 PM
Sep 2014

I'm trying to understand what the word might mean apart from religion. As long as the two of them understood, it's good.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
22. It was pronounced with INTENT, too.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 08:53 PM
Sep 2014

I wasn't going to ask-I was there to smile, well-wish and hit the dance floor just a bit.

I figured the one "rule" was that there are no rules!

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
11. Not my monkey, not my circus.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 01:15 PM
Sep 2014

Sam Harris may be an atheist, but I do not require, nor seek his 'leadership' in any capacity.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
15. And in interviews, he has appeared to be a very reluctant leader in this regard.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 04:22 PM
Sep 2014

But what do you think of his take on spirituality?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
16. It sounds like wordsmithing an otherwise mundane subjective emotional experience into
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 05:18 PM
Sep 2014

something more than just a strong, or 'big' experience wherein the person having it is having maybe multiple emotions at once.

But it begs questions like what do we consider a 'baseline' emotional experience, or a very strong, but negative emotional experience?


Do you watch any Pixar movies? In Ratatouille, the experience Ego has at the end, sampling the dish, and it takes him back in his memories to a time his mother made it, when he was a child (skinned knee, crashed bicycle). I liken 'transcendent' or what other people describe as transcendent, to that sort of strong emotional experience. Many emotions at once, sometimes a strong memory, or a strong sense of wonder or awe, but otherwise, mundane memory recall, or raw emotional response.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
24. It's hard to find single words to adequately describe the kinds
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 02:06 AM
Sep 2014

of experiences that you refer to. I saw Ratatouille a long time ago and don't remember that scene, but I can relate to that experience.

There are many kinds of psychotherapies that encourage people to experience or re-experience particularly strong emotional states. Then, of course, there are drugs that will do something similar.

At any rate, it's interesting, though I tend to think it is all neurochemistry.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
12. It's good to see Harris accepting his spiritual side
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 04:06 PM
Sep 2014

I've never felt any conflict between my atheism and my spirituality. Some people look for leaders or feel they need leaders, or guides. I guess that is a trait common throughout the animal kingdom. Happily, I've never felt that need, except when I can't get a good GPS signal.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
13. "Atheism" was never looking for one.
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 04:10 PM
Sep 2014

So, at that point, the rest of the article is probably useless pandering.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
14. I agree that atheists were never looking for a spiritual leader, but
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 04:21 PM
Sep 2014

I disagree that the article is useless pandering.

If there is pandering going on, it is coming from Harris. But I don't think that's the case.

At least I hope it is not.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
28. I don't think anyone needs it, necessarily, but
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 04:21 AM
Sep 2014

there is a growing demographic of those who say they are spiritual but not religious. In some sections of the atheist community, these people are not necessarily made to feel welcome, even though they identify as atheists. They aren't the right kind of atheist.

He may provide the support and reassurance that some people are seeking.

That's ok, imo.

jambo101

(797 posts)
27. Why do we need a leader?
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 02:00 AM
Sep 2014

When as an atheist i dont practice a religion,i dont think about religion,i dont talk about religion,i go to no church and really dont care about any aspect of religion.
So what is this supposed leader going to do to get my attention and where is he going to lead me.?

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