One thing often overlooked in discussions about religion is the "community" aspect.

[pinto]

For many, religion represents a sense of community. That's something that is common among most cultures irregardless of the presence or absence of a religious connection. I think it's common among all humans.

I grew up in New England. The area is full of "fraternal" organizations. Based primarily on ethnicity, there are Italian clubs, Irish clubs, French Canadian clubs, Polish clubs, Portuguese clubs, etc. etc. Some are more clearly faith based. They all play various roles in the community - social, charitable, political. Most have a hall of some sort for get togethers.

Though there are remnants of an historical exclusiveness, in my time that was merely an echo of the immigrant past that is intrinsic in New England.

Even many fire departments in New England towns have a community hall. I learned to play a distinctly local card game - 45's - at the one in my town. Weekly games had an entry fee - which went to the department. (Table wagers were studiously overlooked. LOL.)

So overall, I feel it's important to not overlook that aspect of religion for some people. Some sense of a common community is vital, imo.

[Warpy]

1. It's the most important thing, IMHO

I lived in a New England town that had moved from agriculture to tourism many decades earlier but which still had an anachronistic Grange Hall for community events.

New England never rejected its past and that was one thing I liked about it.

[upaloopa]

2. I can speak to that because my brother is a Catholic

priest and pastor of a rather large and prosperous parish.
I have problems with his community and it is hard to put into words why. My brother seems to me to be intolerant of other views or other beliefs even mine. I am a Buddhist in practice and at times try to have a discussion about his and my beliefs. The last time it didn't end well. He got really pissed and since we are the only ones left of a family of five I told him I never want to discuss this again that we have few remaining years left and no time to fight about beliefs. His friends from the church are the same way as he is. It seems to me
that they can't handle the idea that other people think differently than they do or is it the idea that they are right and everybody else is wrong? Yes they have a community but still have exclusivity. I don't see it as a positive.

[pinto]

4. I'm sorry for your conflict. Maybe your choice to simply put it aside is a good one for you both.

In any situation, I think if it gets to "who's right and who's wrong" things can fall apart. I've had some minor experiences in my family that are similar. Found that agreeing to disagree works sometimes. Then, get back to the things we have in common.

In my family we had long, long dinner table talks. Some went well, some not so much. At one point someone would stand up and say "Let's clear the table." Everything shifted to the task of putting the food away, rinsing the dishes, general clean up. I think we all got it.

And food is always a good thing.

[upaloopa]

11. That is my solution too

[Dont call me Shirley]

3. Religion is a supplant for real community. True community in the world is almost extinct.

The ruling elite have worked tirelessly over the past thousand of years to destroy real community. The ruling elite destroy, conquer then supplant the real native communities with their form of community, a false community. It's easier for them to maintain control over those "savage" natives that way.

A real community lives with and support each other. In a real community all truly know each other. Community is caring for the well being of one another. We must return to real community for the survival of he planet, species and earth.

[Feral Child]

5. So, church is a club?

That's what I always thought, too.

Never joined a frat, either.

[pinto]

6. Yeah, in a way I guess. Never joined a frat either. Though I lived next door to one for a time.

It was hell.

[Feral Child]

12. I bet!

I just can't see the need for church, either spiritually or fraternally. Quieter than a frat, at least, except for the damn bells!

Jalopy Club, Kayaking Club, even Model Train Society could be fun, but church? Pffft.

[trotsky]

7. I don't think that it's overlooked so much as assumed.

Humans are social animals. Just about everything they do is social - why should religion be any different? The main question I find of interest is, can some social/charitable/political functions ONLY be played by religious groups? Does anyone advocate that position?

[Promethean]

10. The religious clearly do.

It is the only reason I can think of that they bring it up when asked what positive contribution religion makes to the well being of Humanity. Because in every case an organization without religious baggage could perform those same social/charitable/political functions better. Take for example the Catholic church and its relief to the poor parts of Africa. With the relief it sends preachers who explicitly make it a point to denounce safe sex practices. After years of this those same poor areas now have such high concentrations of AIDS infection that outside of dramatic and extreme social and political change those populations are doomed to die out from the disease.

[trotsky]

16. Agreed on all points. n/t

[Feral Child]

13. Only Fundies.

They think everygoddamthing is better with Jesus...

[cleanhippie]

27. It ain't only fundies.

Many of our liberal believers also feelh e same way. Some of them can be found right here.

[Promethean]

8. The community aspect is very must in the forfront of most Atheists minds.

It is discussed constantly among Atheists. There are stories everywhere of people recovering from being rejected by their communities after it was made public they were Atheist. There are even groups dedicated to helping people who have been hurt by religion in this way. It has led to many of us learning hard lessons. My personal take being a community with that many strings and that much baggage is fundamentally flawed. It can clearly be done better without the religion.

[ZombieHorde]

9. That is a very good point.

Communities are real --if we define them as regular human interaction with the same people over a period of time-- even if the beliefs of the faith do not reflect reality.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. You mean like the FLDS communities in Arizona and Utah?

Oh, not those communities I guess.

Yes religion can be a basis for people getting together, but that in itself is not sufficient. What are they getting together for? To organize witch burnings? To vote against godless liberals? To marry young girls to old men?

[rug]

15. Why yes, that' exactly what he means.

Talk about a deep pile of bs.

[pinto]

17. That's cherry picking, Warren.

I think you know that.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. A sample of concrete examples from a spectrum of possibility.

Surely your theory can withstand a few negative anecdotes?

[trotsky]

23. That's what you did too, pinto.

And I bet you know that as well.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. I think you missed the point.

[Cartoonist]

18. Kind of like Gangs

That's the same message gang members cite. They feel more comfortable with their homies than their families. Perhaps due to poverty or parental abuse.

Churches have an advantage. No taxes. Those model train clubs have expenses Churches don't. You can call yourself a non-profit and get special classifications to reduce taxes, but no one gets the complete free ride that churches do.

Churches don't represent community unless everyone in the community shares the same religion. Even groups like the Fraternal Order of Elks have an intimidating aura of religion.

A truly inclusive community organization has to become secular first, but in doing so, would antagonize the churches who would see it as competition and a threat to their existence. Rightly so, because who needs churches when you have meeting places open to ALL.

[pinto]

19. Do you identify with a community? Or participate in a community? However, in passing or such?

And how can you speak for the "homies" you mention. Been there, done that? Let's hear it.

That's the same message gang members cite. They feel more comfortable with their homies than their families. Perhaps due to poverty or parental abuse

.

Yeah, I feel meeting places should be open to all. In my experience most are.

[Cartoonist]

20. Gangs

I've heard that so often from gang members I've lost count. Just repeating what has been said by them. I'm not putting words into anyone's mouth. If you want to claim that they were lying to the camera, go ahead.
Also, I understand the sentiment. I'm not putting them down for it, I'm just saddened that they can't find community in a more positive environment.

I was a regular member of our local Peace & Justice Coalition. We met in the basement of a church. I thank them for allowing us to meet there, but I was never comfortable with the situation. They would always pass the collection plate to pay for the lights and heating. Perfectly understandable, but being an atheist, I wanted none of my hard earned cash going to a church. I brought this up several times at meetings, but there really were no other options. Even though the group was a non-profit, no way could we afford a hall, or even rent one.

[cbayer]

25. Yep, people that go to churches are just like gang members hanging out with their homies.

Your understanding of the church issue is incorrect. All non-profits who file for 501 (3) c status get the same tax advantages, be they religious or not. Religious organizations also are granted a parsonage exception. Interestingly, this was recently challenged by a secular group and the courts found that this group also met the criteria for a parsonage exemption. There is some differences in the paperwork requirements as well, but otherwise the notion that churches get a complete free ride that other organizations don't get is entirely wrong (though often repeated).

There are many communities that have inclusive, secular community organizations. I have seen no evidence that this has reduced the need or desire for churches in those communities. Have you? Or is this just speculation on your part?

[trotsky]

28. It's not quite as equal and even as you would like to think.

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/a/churchexemption.htm

Churches, however, tend to benefit the most from the various tax exemptions available, in particular because they qualify for many of them automatically, whereas non-religious groups have to go through a more complicated application and approval process. Non-religious groups also have to be more accountable for where their money goes, while churches, in order to avoid possibly excessive entanglements between church and state, do not have to submit financial disclosure statements.

It is interesting to note that in secular countries with a strong social safety net, the role and need for churches HAS declined significantly. So you're wrong about that, too.

[AtheistCrusader]

21. It is not common among all humans.

I believe it would be fair to say 'most', possibly even 'nearly all', but not all. Unless you count very, very vague levels of participation in an online forum like DU as a sense of community. (not really within spec of what I would consider a community, though you can see it from time to time, especially when a noted poster passes away.

[cbayer]

24. Great points and very true.

In some areas there are not other community based social organizations. The church then takes on a much larger role.

[Peacetrain]

29. Very thoughtful op..

Community and a sense of being part of a larger whole.. is pretty deep in my religious outlook. And it is just as deep for others in organizations with no attachment to religion. We are very social creatures for the most part..