Religion
Related: About this forumThe new pope is every bit the sexist homophobe as his predecessors
From Salon
Anna March
Don't buy his populist rhetoric. The new pope is every bit the sexist homophobe as his predecessors
THE IMAGE OF Pope Francis is that he is a breath of fresh air, more progressive on social issues than his predecessor and a kinder, gentler pope. But when the facts are examined, you see that he is none of these things. There is an enormous disconnect between who the pope really is in terms of his policies and his public relations image, as crafted by the Vaticans PR man, previously with Fox News. The current PR mission is all about reversing the incredible decline in fundraising under the last pope from the U.S. Catholic Church in particular. Pope Francis has made any number of statements that seem to indicate change and progress that are not reflected in policy. In fact, in the wake of such comments from Pope Francis, the Vatican often makes a point to explicitly state that no church policy has changed.
While the pope transmits a populist vibeparticularly about the economy he is an old-school conservative who, despite his great PR, maintains nearly all of the socialpolicies of his predecessors and keeps up a hardline Vatican cabinet. He has done virtually nothing to change the policies of the church to match his more compassionate rhetoric. People excuse the pope, claiming that he doesnt have much power to make changes, but this simply isnt true. Further, it is ludicrous to suggest that a man who denies comprehensive reproductive health care (including all forms of birth control including condoms and abortion) and comprehensive family planning is a man who cares about the poor of this world. The bigotry of homophobia and sexism cloaked in religion are still bigotry and sexism. By giving to the church, American Catholics arent supporting progress, they are supporting oppression and in this way are complicit in the bigotry, sexism, and oppression of the church.
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Instead, the church has the same focus on dogma over helping the poor, the same oppressive views on women and homosexuals, and the same abhorrent behavior in response to the sex abuse scandals. There is zero flexibility on contraception, abortion, gay rights, womens role in the church. Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI were at least honest salesmen; they told you exactly what you were getting. Pope Francis is much craftier than that. He uses his charm and humility (and a strong public relations strategy) to achieve the same goal as a used car salesman: to separate you from your money. American Catholics must put their faith and money where their mouth is if they want to see real change in the church. The idea that one can remain an active member of the church and expect ideological change only encourages the current pope to continue the practice of saying one thing and doing another. And why not? His numbers are up. The Catholic Churchs numbers are up. And it stands to reason that donations from American Catholics follow his favorability numbers and rise dramatically.
The church has a right to promote its beliefs and Pope Francis has a right to wage the best, smartest PR campaign he caneven if it is smoke and mirrors. But its wrong for a lazy media to tout Pope Francis as a reformer when hes nothing of the sort. I hope the media will stop promoting Pope Francis as a liberal.
We should not allow comforting rhetoric to distract us from the actions of a church that continues to enact and enforce policies that hurt women, homosexuals, and the poor. We should look at the ways in which our dollars in the collection plate are used. For many years the prominent writer Anna Quindlen, a liberal feminist, remained a Catholic while publicly and vehemently disagreeing with the church on social issues. But in 2012 Quindlen was quoted as saying, Enough every time I sit in this pew I ratify this behavior, and Im not going to ratify it anymore. The great Catholic activist Dorothy Day said of people, It is best to disregard their talk and judge only their actions. Catholics would be wise to take her advice.
The article was written before the new pope was referred to as the "pontiff of the poor" but the author still nailed it:
"It is ludicrous to take either Pope Francis or the Catholic Church seriously on their commitment to end poverty. Even the National Catholic Reporter calls out the hypocrisy of the Vatican on this issue. Lack of access to birth control and comprehensive family planning traps people in a cycle of poverty."
Much more at link
Gelliebeans
(5,043 posts)A PR Campaign based on some jackass from Fox News does nothing for the church. A juggernaut sleight of hand machine cannot make those issues go away.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Francis is a religious right wing conservative with much more power than others who are roundly condemned on DU.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)ZOMFG! Atheists have a real problem there and need to address it!!!!111oneone!
mr blur
(7,753 posts)I know it's true, I read it in this very forum! He's only god's spokesman on earth, he can't just do whatever he wants you know! Poor guy, he's just a slave of the system. He has to toe the line otherwise there will be...consequences. 
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Either he can change policy (and won't) or he's just the new spokesmodel who can't do anything at all.
Why am I supposed to be impressed again?
Gelliebeans
(5,043 posts)the Italian loafers or not....can't have it both ways. Especially if you are gods representative
trotsky
(49,533 posts)He could change things (because we all know how wonderful and perfect and liberal he is) but he can't because... well...

mr blur
(7,753 posts)Ah Franco, I know it was you. You broke my heart. You broke my heart!
Why don't you ask Cardinal Alphonse to take you out fishing..."
.....

Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)
mr blur
(7,753 posts)that was part of the joke? We were talking about Pope Francis betraying the RCC? - Francis/Franco/Fredo?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Well, that one went way over my head.
If anyone need me, I'll be the guy in the corner wearing the dunce's cap.
rug
(82,333 posts)Maybe not.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Sucks for you.
rug
(82,333 posts)Three months ago.
Sucks you missed it.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Link please.
rug
(82,333 posts)You're excellent at digging up old stuff.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)That's what I thought.
rug
(82,333 posts)uh huh
okasha
(11,573 posts)Same old same old.
l
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Or did I miss it when you did it the first time around?
Because
isn't really calling it out.
okasha
(11,573 posts)for using the homophobic slur "poofer" and you and your buds.register some objection to rapist Michael Schermer and Randi's covering for him.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)I haven't seen the "poofer" comment. I don't read each and every comment on this board. Nor have I read the Schermer thread. Perhaps I will.
But you said on another thread that you always call those things out. And, if I remember correctly, someone indicated that you didn't do that with the RCC. And here you are with your chance and all you have is
. How about you stop making claims like that and just admit you call out things you don't like from Dawkins more than you ever would with the RCC for some reason that stumps me.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Or is it "okay if atheists do it?"
okasha
(11,573 posts)So I'll repeat here what I've said before about Francis and the issues surrounding women and LGBTs in the Catholic Church:
The Church's historical record on both, from about 500 CE regarding women and about 1200 CE regarding LGBT's, is abysmal. Its attitudes toward women were a direct inheritance from the Greco-Roman culture that prevailed in the Church after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE. Thank you, Paul. The condemnation of LGBT's was institutionalized in the Fourth Lateran Council and reflected the Church's crackdown on religious and social nonconformists of all sorts.
Francis has thrown out a number of provocative statements, as have senior bishops known to be in his confidence, that he is open to making changes in some of attitudes. He has to be aware of changing social attitudes regarding both the role of women and LGBT's. What I think he is doing is what any competent politician does: get the people behind him, then use popular support to twist the arms of the bureaucrats and hierarchy.
You say you attended a Catholic high school. That means you know that the Pope cannot change the direction of the Church by snapping his fingers or simply proclaiming the change. It doesn't work that way now, and never has.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,477 posts)Therefore, he is worse than Evil McEvil, the most evil man in recorded history.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)Stop the money and the church will reform. Stop the money and say you won't go back until the bigot cardinals and bishops are ousted and women can be ordained and they will get their noses out of uteri and pedophiles are brought to justice. There is nothing forcing you to give your money and support to an institution that perpetuates bigotry, misogyny and poverty. Stop the money and the church will reform. Stop the money and see how fast it does.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)It's a worldwide institution actively perpetuating and reinforcing the patriarchy, not to mention its war against LGBTers and reproductive freedom for all.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Gelliebeans
(5,043 posts)Even today the amount of racism in the momo church is appalling!!!!
And of course if you drive thru Utah today you see all these women dressed in Laura Ingalls garb planting and doing all the chores while the men sit around deciding which boy gets kicked to the curb so that there is less competition with the young wives in the "joy books". I got too up close with that religion *ahem cult.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)The LDS church fought tooth and nail for years to preserve the institution, restating over and over and over again that plural marriage was the only route to the highest plane of Heaven. After the Edmonds-Tucker Act disenfranchised the church and prohibited its members from seeking public office, it took a paltry 3 years for Wilford Woodruff to issue the Manifesto of 1890, unequivocally banning the polygamy in the church.
Gelliebeans
(5,043 posts)Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)I figured this out without much help.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)for the beliefs of others, not to mention outright hostility toward that church, displayed here are astonishing. Just the way it feels to me.
As a personal exercise how about substituting the name of a black figure for "Pope" in this thread, MLK, Obama, black evangelical church, some athlete, reading it over, and seeing what you think?
Btw, I was born a nonbeliever. Just not in me to be a "person of faith." And as a little girl the absolute cold indifference toward me by a Catholic priest a friend introduced me to would have killed any illusions I had about Catholic priests if I had had any. But even at 9 or so, I didn't. I was a poor child, and treatment of me was a usually all-to-available tool for sifting good from bad people.
These attitudes still strike me as incompatible with how people committed to principles of personal and religious freedom would speak.
Whoops! Just realized I followed a new post into the religion forum. How strange that I never knew or guessed the prevailing mood here.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)If the leader of the most homophobic misogynistic religious organization in the world doesn't do anything to change its bigoted policies and in fact enforces them then he deserves to be called out.
To do otherwise is illiberal.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)then attack it on that label alone is practically a definition of extreme bigotry, or "bias" as the pros call it. This religion has over a billion members, is a major part of global culture, and, as I expect some at least here know teaches many elevated principles in addition to outdated, oppressive doggeral, and it probably feeds and keeps alive more poor people, including especially babies and children, than all other charitable efforts combined -- engaging in redistribution of wealth on a planetary level.
I again suggest the little self-awareness exercise. Even small epiphanies can rock our worlds.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Their policies on birth control keep millions of women and children in poverty.
Why do they get a pass when other ideologies don't?
Republicans do good works, should their ideology be exempt too?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)That's how many people are going to contract HIV today. And tomorrow. And the day after that. That's 230 people every hour. In places particularly vulnerable to infection -- places where religious institutions like the Catholic Church are trusted authorities on matters of sin and salvation -- your friendly neighborhood priest is condemning the simplest defense against the spread of HIV: condoms.
But fuck all those kids born with HIV. You have a feel-good happytastic anecdotal story about smiley priest! Mother Church is clearly unassailable.
And none of us criticizing the church here know anything about it. We didn't grow up in the church, or go to Catholic schools, or spend a significant portion of our lives involved and active in Catholic churches and/or their communities. You are the obviously the expert here, with your single, individual experience... at 9 years old.
Oh, and welcome to religion group.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)So, do you have any problems with the bigoted views of the Pope? You know, the leader of the RCC? When he says things, they mean things. It's not like attacking some random Catholic on the street for the dogma of the church. This is saying that the infallible leader of the RCC is a bigot. And, I mean, he is, right?
He doesn't want gays to get married. He supports horribly antiquated views toward women.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)He is encouraging leaders to overlook various ways people are disobeying church doctrine and to allow them in church. There are over 400,000 priests alone in thousands of population regions who all have their own beliefs, most of them extremely strong. A Pope cannot just do his own thing any more than our president can.
Just look what happened in response to Vatican II both during and after. The troglodyte that Pope Francis replaced and the guy before him were both horrible damaging conservative blowback to liberalizing of church doctrine, and many gains were lost in the conservative clampdown. When all actions have enormous consequences they have to be taken very carefully.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Sure, he said lets let the gays in but then immediately said "nothing about what they do is right." So, yea, I guess?
And how quickly people forget that JPII was considered this awesome liberal dude that was moving to change the church just like people think Francis is now. I guess that means a couple popes from now people will realize what a bigot this current one is.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)And remember that excessive cynicism is even more destructive to progress than none at all. If we are not the kinds of people who CAN help make the change we want happen, then our next best choice is to at least get out of the way of those who are.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)I really don't see any change in policy from the last pope.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)How incredibly enlightened and generous of him!
Please, get real.
He reminds me of the Blessed Hillary. He has about as much iterest in actually changing the status quo for the mass of people as La Cinton does. Interesting, as each of them is strangely popular on DU. The Cult of Personality, I guess.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)mr blur
(7,753 posts)The ugliness that is religion has to be forced into you. The RCC is particularly good at this.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Not really.
And you should hear what they say about atheists!
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Nice necroposting here.