Religion
Related: About this forumEgged On By Her Ex-Pastor Husband, Mom Tries to Poison and Stab 3 Daughters to Bring Them to Jesus
The children were dressed all in white when Montgomery police arrived at the family’s Patron Lane home at around 10: 20 a.m. Sept. 25, after dispatchers received two hang-up 911 calls.
When they arrived, police said Pamela J. Christensen, 47, answered the door wearing a white shirt covered in blood. She got down on her knees before police and told them she had tried to kill her children.
The girls were upstairs, and two had suffered stab wounds to the chest. According to Kendall County Court records, Christensen had also stabbed herself in the chest and abdomen.
<snip>
http://breakingnews.suntimes.com/chicago/police-mom-said-she-was-going-to-kill-her-three-children-so-they-could-meet-jesus/
Just another coincidence, I suppose...
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xfundy
(5,105 posts)They weren't True Christians™!
cbayer
(146,218 posts)But be very afraid, because being an exfundy doesn't protect you either.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)So at least one whole, very common class of common delusions might be partially eliminated. If not all delusions.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)Knowing your kids are sinful and wanting to remove them from a sinful world.
How sad and scary.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)All your crying smilie does is dismiss and denigrate her. How pathetic.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)and her injured children as well.
Don't you dare call me pathetic.
I repeat: Don't you DARE call me pathetic.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Andrea Yates did not suffer from "religious insanity." There is no such diagnosis. She had extremely severe post-partum psychosis/depression.
In the case of the woman in the OP, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that her husband was molesting the kids, or that he is an ex-pastor precisely because he's an abuser.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)So you're a psychiatrist? You tell me what the woman was suffering from. Normal and sane mothers don't try to kill their children, religious reason or not.
Maybe both parents were abusing the kids. We don't know the facts yet.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Andrea Yates' diagnosis was severe post-partum psychosis, and was very much in the news at the time. It was clear enough that her attorney won on an insanity plea. Since you also claim to be an attorney living in Texas,, you should know how rare that is in this state.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)hits in response.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)has nothing to do with religion.
I did not mean to call you pathetic, just the idea that you were spouting.
Obviously, I have really pushed your button, but that was in response to your pushing mine.
Rob H.
(5,851 posts)Her initial comment wasn't directed even tangentially at you, and now you want to make excuses by basically saying, "You started it."
trotsky
(49,533 posts)It's just cbayer setting the example for civility once again.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I never said it was aimed at me. She blamed "religious insanity" on a terrible event that was caused by a tragic and untreated psychiatric illness. She did start it and I did respond.
Which part of that is bullshit?
Rob H.
(5,851 posts)You're seriously posting, "Obviously, I have really pushed your button, but that was in response to your pushing mine" and then want to claim you never said her comment was aimed at you? (Yeah, you implied it, you just never came out and said it, a weasel's defense if ever there was one.) And now you're still claiming that she started it and you're just responding. I believe in circles where people practice that kind of behavior, that tactic is known as "I know you are, but what am I?"
Which is it, cbayer? You clearly reacted as if it was aimed at you--"push{ing} your button"--and yet now you've changed your tune. If you really thought it wasn't, why did you react the way you did? You constantly lecture people about civility in this forum and yet you won't do something as simple as lead by example. (I would note at this point that the religious people here can say things like this, and this about atheists, and then there's the infamous "you atheist arseholes" comment which happened while you were a host at the time, yet when things like that happen there's nothing but deafening silence from you.) If you're going to lecture people for their rude behavior, the absolute least you could do is be consistent.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I did not recognize that the words I used would cause her to be as upset as she was.
It is you that is making this highly personal. Why? Do you seek witches where there aren't any?
I am not a weasel and I do not constantly lecture people about civility. I do, however, try to keep it civil, though I know that I sometimes cross the line.
You might want to consider no longer carrying that ancient "arsehole" cross and you might also want to get your facts straight, because I wasn't a host. The whole thing has become a distorted meme, like so many others that are carried around here endlessly (credit to Richard Dawkins for inventing the wonderful concept of meme).
But while we are on the subject, the first instance of the word "arsehole" being used was by mr blur.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=6820
It was in a post targeting another member and was hidden by jury.
Six months later it was used by another member who subsequently deleted his own post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=75371
These are the facts behind an incident that has been totally distorted and worn like a crown of thorns by the perpetually persecuted.
Do you often let things fester like this? It must be painful to walk around with such horrible boils. And it absolutely prevents you from being able to engage with me in a reality based world.
Rob H.
(5,851 posts)"And it absolutely prevents you from being able to engage with me in a reality based world."
It's always everyone else who's wrong and you're always right, isn't it? What's it like to live in that world, I wonder. 
And for what it's worth, I'm not letting things fester. The truth is, I couldn't give a thundering fuck what you or any other apologist for religion thinks--I truly think it's hilarious that you don't see that your (and others, to be fair) tut-tutting about the behavior of atheists is baldly hypocritical when you and others oftentimes don't say a damned thing when atheists are being attacked.
Thanks, btw, I needed the laugh today. 
cbayer
(146,218 posts)You have me completely wrong, but that apparently suits some purpose of yours. Please continue to carry the false stories around in pursuit of your witch hunt and make sure to collect your high fives. That's about all you are going to get.
I see no point in taking this any further.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)channeled into murder.
How many atheist mothers with severe post-partum psychosis murdered their children for the same reason that Andrea Yates did?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I would very much like to see a study on this.
My personal guess is, secular people of any stripe might be more likely to seek help.
Buddhists might be a statistically large enough sample group to examine as a starting place.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)It might be interesting, but for now I'm happy to let the apologists for this sort of thing provide the evidence that, by their reasoning, should be easy to find. If this sort of thing has nothing to do with religion, then atheist moms should be murderring their children at the same rate for this reason, and there should be plenty of instances making the news.
kdmorris
(5,649 posts)how many atheist mothers KEEP HAVING CHILDREN when they tried to kill themselves after the second one.
These people were part of the same religious belief system that gave us the Duggers and people like them. (the Quiverfull movement)
Her controlling husband and she wanted to have "as many children as God would give them" despite the fact that she TRIED TO KILL HERSELF AND HER BABY after the second one. Yet they kept having them, as she got worse and worse each time.
Then when the inevitable happened, her husband divorced her and moved on to another wife whou didn't have Post Partum Psychosis.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Particularly the last sentence before the crying smiley.
(Point flew RIGHT over your head.)
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)a working mind
cbayer
(146,218 posts)It's true.
bvf
(6,604 posts)If ~p then ~q.
So your response is nonsensical.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Whew, that's a relief.
bvf
(6,604 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)You win.
Last edited Mon Oct 13, 2014, 03:28 AM - Edit history (1)
All fish live in water.
A whale is not a fish.
By your reasoning (in responding to blkmusclmachine), a whale does not live in water.
Use your reason. Don't cry.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)who have murdered their children because their psychosis made them believe their children were possessed by devils?
shenmue
(38,598 posts)Want some paint to go with that broad brush?
mr blur
(7,753 posts)That's exsctly what shenmue said.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Your post makes no sense whatsoever.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)all non-believers are completely and utterly sane.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Your post makes no sense whatsoever.
kdmorris
(5,649 posts)They were part of the Quiverfull movement - "have as many children as God will give us" - despite the fact that Andrea Yates had tried to kill HERSELF and her baby after the second one.
It is truly sad that she never had anyone give her the help that she so desperately needed, because her husband "didn't believe" in birth control. She suffered horribly after each child was born and her family (including her husband) never said "enough".
Religion didn't make her psychotic. Having babies made her psychotic. And her religion made her keep having babies.
And as soon as the inevitable happened, her husband divorced her and moved on to a wife that didn't have Post Partum Psychosis and started having babies again.
I really fail to see why you can't see this and why you keep misconstruing what people say.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)that her actions were in any way connected with that religion.
The most horrifying thing about postpartum depressions and psychoses is that women often have the impulse to harm or kill their children. Linking this to her religion is tasteless, as best.
And lots of women keep having babies despite having had a postpartum complication who are not religious.
I wish we could agree that this OP is just a piece of flame bait that tries to link religion to heinous acts committed by severely psychiatrically disturbed people. It is cheap and it is thoughtless. Using these people as fodder for scoring some vacuous point is pretty despicable.
I guess I share you befuddlement as to why some things are really hard to see and are misconstrued.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)I'm sure you have some facts to back this declarative statement? If there are so many then surely the numbers should be at your fingertips.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Although the risk of having a postpartum depression again is significantly higher after an initial episode, lots of women take the chance and conceive again. There are things that can reduce the risk somewhat, but it is still increased.
While I don't have specific numbers, I think that you could ask anyone in OB/Gyn or psychiatry that have dealt with these patients and they will tell you the same thing.
Do you doubt this? Do you think that most women choose never to conceive again?
What would be your point here?
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Thanks for answering by admitting you don't know what you're talking about and are making up numbers.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I didn't make up any numbers or admit that I didn't know what I was talking about. Your distortions are remarkable and only serve the purpose of fulfilling your fallacious fantasies.
But you are most welcome. The only bright spot in my life is that I am able to function as the screen for your projection.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Such a tiring, tacky little phrase.
shenmue
(38,598 posts)
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Last edited Mon Oct 13, 2014, 11:16 PM - Edit history (1)
There is a big difference between criticizing the deleterious ideas religion proposes and generalizing the behavior of religious people overall.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Or do you think it just never happens?
When you paint an entire population the same color without regard to the differences among them, I guess you could call it bigotry or prejudice, but broad brush seems less offensive.
But then a tiring, tacky little phrase may be exactly what is needed to describe a tiring, tacky little behavior.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)
If we get rid of all religion then we will never see this kind of incident again.
How low can you go?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Possibly non-lethal ways. Hard to say. But the scenario would be very different.
I am waiting for a story, any story will do, of an actual secular or atheistic person, killing their own children for some well developed and defined concept such 'saving' them from a world of 'sin'.
I have yet to see it. Frankly, my jury is still out, since atheists are a small percentage of the population, and people who have acted out in this manner citing religious justifications are ALSO rare, and therefore, any atheistic counterpart would have to be even smaller, statistically speaking, of an occurrence.
But I am watching. So far, nada.
bvf
(6,604 posts)in an afterlife figures into this in any way?
I've always thought so, but it's just a notion.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)(And this time, yes, using the word delusion in the clinical sense.)
Sort of like how use of heroin in Portugal came down after decriminalizing it. People who were using it, could then freely seek treatment for the condition, without fear of being thrown in jail.
Take away the 'sin' impetus behind wanting to 'cleanse' self or children, and what do you have? I'm guessing nothing worthwhile that the person might misinterpret as a rational reason to continue on with the cleansing. Maybe ask for help. As in Portugal you take away the threat of jail, people ask for help. Take away the threat of sin/eternal torture, PERHAPS they will seek psychological help.
I'd like to see some deep clinical investigation into this possibility.
bvf
(6,604 posts)That wasn't where I expected this to go, but your view makes perfect sense to me. Liked the example, too.
I had in mind something more like how the belief in an afterlife might make someone (however crazed) regard the finality of a murderous act as somehow less than final.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)in this case, the child would certainly (according to their beliefs) go to heaven. That that desire might be so strong they'd be willing to condemn themselves to (again, in some Abrahamic faiths anyway) hell.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)And the cure has been known for a long time.
Arkansas Granny
(32,265 posts)that they need. I can't imagine the torment in that household.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)This thread was not intended to elicit that kind of response, but I am very thankful to you for expressing your thoughts.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)then there MUST be something wrong with it.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)So, cry me some more crocodile tears.
rug
(82,333 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Like, I don't see where you're going with that.
rug
(82,333 posts)culminating in the attempted murder of children, all to make a dubious point about religion, is craven, I can't help you.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Religion is written all over this one. Furthermore, religion is even the stated motive for the crime:
"In an affidavit to secure a search warrant for the family’s home, police said Christensen told officers that she was sending the girls home to “meet Jesus Christ.”
The three girls, ages 12, 16 and 19, told police that their mother held a knife to them and asked them if they accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. Two of the girls were stabbed.
Police recovered a poisonous liquid in the home’s kitchen, which Christensen said she had concocted out of dishwashing detergent in an attempt to subdue her children.
She told police she had hoped they would fall asleep so she could stab them. Police said the children refused to ingest the poison.
On the scene, police said they found a cell phone which belonged to Christensen. The woman told officers that her husband, Vaughn Christensen, had left messages on the phone telling his wife that the world was ending, and that she needed to prepare the family to meet Jesus.
Vaughn Christensen is a former pastor at a Sugar Grove church."
rug
(82,333 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Religion is not a cause of mental illness, you both claim constantly, on Democratic Underground.
Your reasoning seems to be basically this: you seem to hold to the 50's cliché that 1) mental problems are a "disease," caused only by biological problems in the brain. And 2) the things that patients say, the ideas they have, or the exact nature of their hallucinations or delusions, is irrelevant. Some people with mental disease, they seem to feel, will quote outer space aliens; others will blame invisible ghosts; or the CIA; or finally, Religion. But the real cause of the problem with mentally ill people is biological; not ideas that people might get from various sources.
This view of mental illness however, though widely held, is not quite right, according to modern Psychology. For some time Psychology has agreed that 1) there are biological elements in mental illness to be sure. But then it also holds that 2) there are elements of mental illness, that come from incorrect thinking. From confused thinking. Or bad ideas. Ideas that a patient might have got say, a) on his own; b) or from the culture around him. Including religion.
So that? Part of the therapy process for mental illness involves not just 1) pills, to change brain states, but also 2) talking to the patient; to change his incorrect or bad ideas.
For some time in fact, Psychology has held that ideas that you have - including ideas you get from others, like those in your church - can play a very significant role in your mental health. Some ideas seem healthy and true; others do not. Generally, we want to avoid ideas that contract science: where the patient things he can say, walk on water. Or read minds. Such ideas science says, are "delusions."
And this is where religion comes in. In addition to prescribing medication, a psychologist will also talk to a patient, to find out where he or she has good ideas - and where he or she has bad ones. In such a case, the psychologist will look for unrealistic, or particularly "magical thinking" notions; ideas about amazing supernatural happenings. Then the psychologist will often suggest to the patient that these ideas are not good. Hoping he or she will abandon them, and become less confused. Less mentally ill. Believing that talking about ideas will help, as much as medication.
So where is Psychology on the matter of religious ideas today? Psychologists feel no hesitation to suggest that patients are wrong, when they claim that the CIA is reading their brain on an brain chip implanted in their abdomen; or that invisible aliens changing the channels on their TV.
And normally, when they are allowed to, Psychologists would also privately classify patient's assertions that they themselves can walk on water, or fly to heaven on wings, as unhealthy delusions too. As indeed several professional journal articles that we have quoted here earlier, have said.
But of course, these words from professionals are ignored by religious folks, or shouted down as ridiculous. Because religion is a an emotional subject. And religious zealots have in various venues, moreover, have carved out a special exemption for themselves and their beliefs, when others speak of false ideas, magical thinking, and delusions.
However, professional and other journals however are increasingly making it clear: in fact, mental illness is NOT just about 1) brain states; 2) it is also about ideas that people get, good or bad, about life.
Especially we need to see that people don't get too many beliefs in magical or miraculous things; like the power to read other people's minds. Or the power to walk on water. When psychologists hear such ideas, they may attempt to talk the patient out of them. Believing that their specific false ideas have a causal role in their patient's mental disease.
And specifically, "religion" and religious ideas are increasingly being cited here in the professional journals.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)To how this mother chose this method/means to act out.
You can call it craven if you like, but that's just like, your opinion, man.
rug
(82,333 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Over and over. If there were earlier suicide attempts, likely they were consistent with a long religious history after all (from a "former" pastor; earlier active).
Furthermore, these early remarks easily fit, and are confirmed by, the emerging psychological profile for religious murders.
Even as the perpetrators themselves name religion as their motive.
But here, Rug sees nothing; hears nothing. Says plenty though.
Classic religious Denial. Faith demands that we ignore and deny, all the evidence that contradicts our belief.
rug
(82,333 posts)Do you have the slightest clue about suicide?
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Can anyone here prove she was wrong?
I mean, that's what we are told is the standard that should be applied to every instance of religious claims.
rug
(82,333 posts)Go on, trotsky.
struggle4progress
(126,150 posts)Erika Wurst
ewurst@stmedianetwork.com
Oct. 9 9:57 p.m.
struggle4progress
(126,150 posts)By Snejana Farberov for MailOnline
Published: 19:33 EST, 10 October 2014 | Updated: 06:53 EST, 11 October 2014
struggle4progress
(126,150 posts)taken into custody and charged until Wednesday, after she was released. She faces three counts each of attempted first-degree murder, aggravated battery and aggravated unlawful restraint — all felonies, police said in a statement. Her bail was set at $1 million on Thursday. She is next scheduled to appear in court on Oct. 16."
Woman charged with stabbing, trying to poison daughters
Posted: Thursday, October 9, 2014 11:06 PM EDT Updated: Saturday, October 11, 2014 12:02 AM EDT
struggle4progress
(126,150 posts)her husband in Kendall County. The order was granted, and in effect until the end of October. According to records filed by Pamela Christensen, Vaughn had become increasingly violent toward her and the children. On Sept. 10, the couple filed for divorce in DuPage County."
Friends, neighbors stunned by charges that Montgomery mom tried to kill her kids
Erika Wurst
ewurst@stmedianetwork.com
Oct. 11 3:21 p.m.
struggle4progress
(126,150 posts)A month prior to the stabbings, Christensen had filed an order of protection against her husband, which was granted. The order was to be in effect until the end of October. According to records filed by Pamela Christensen, the two were going through a divorce, and Vaughn Christensen had become increasingly violent toward her and the children. The order, filed on Aug. 29, stated Vaughn Christensen had become “increasingly erratic” over the last seven months, and had threatened to harm himself and the kids.He mentioned wanting to die on several occasions, she wrote. Police said they had been called to the home within the last year for several suicidal incidents. Pamela Christensen wrote that her husband had kept her from leaving the home on numerous occasions, and on Aug. 25, she moved to her father’s Naperville home to escape her husband."
Police: Mom said she was going to kill her three children so they could meet Jesus
Sun-Times staff
Erika Wurst
struggle4progress
(126,150 posts)The deranged mom admitted she dressed the girls in all white and attacked them with a knife when they refused to drink a toxic cocktail she’d mixed out of detergent and other household chemicals, court records show. She claimed her estranged husband, a former pastor, had told her on the phone to prepare their daughters to meet their maker. Officers found the girls — ages 12, 16 and 19 — bloodied but alive upstairs. Two suffered stab wounds to the chest. One of the girls had managed to call 911 twice about 10:20 a.m. on Sept. 25, and officers arrived to find the nightmare in full swing."
Murderous Illinois mom wanted daughters to ‘meet Jesus Christ,' cops say
BY Doyle Murphy
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Saturday, October 11, 2014, 1:32 PM
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)And why are you smearing religion with this sort of obvious flamebait?
And Wow. Just Wow!
And how dare you associate religion with psychotic behavior!!11!!
Plus some atheist somewhere also did something bad, so there!
Insert a multitude of rofls here so everyone knows I'm insulting you but pretty much a jury will ignore it.
On a more (or less) serious note, if heaven is great and eternal bliss ponies marshmallow fluff etc. then why isn't sending your little ones to heaven a good thing?
muriel_volestrangler
(106,210 posts)"their mother held a knife to them and asked them if they accepted Jesus Christ as their savior"
"On the scene, police said they found a cell phone which belonged to Christensen. The woman told officers that her husband, Vaughn Christensen, had left messages on the phone telling his wife that the world was ending, and that she needed to prepare the family to meet Jesus."
It's a complete mystery, that no-one here could possibly solve.
rug
(82,333 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Rob H.
(5,851 posts)I don't understand why the police released those kids to their father.
Montgomery Police Chief Daniel Meyers said the children are now in the custody of Christensen’s father, because it “was determined by the court” to be “ the best place for the kids at this time.”
A month prior to the stabbings, Christensen had filed an order of protection against her husband, which was granted. The order was to be in effect until the end of October. According to records filed by Pamela Christensen, the two were going through a divorce, and Vaughn Christensen had become increasingly violent toward her and the children.
The order, filed on Aug. 29, stated Vaughn Christensen had become “increasingly erratic” over the last seven months, and had threatened to harm himself and the kids. He mentioned wanting to die on several occasions, she wrote.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,210 posts)The reporting in the OP is a bit sloppy - "Christensen’s father" could have been either Pamela's father, or Vaughn's father (which I thought it did mean, because he was the last Christensen mentioned before that), or, as you assume, the father of one of the children (though it would seem strange to say "Christensen's" rather than "their"
.
The maternal grandfather may well be the best person to look after them - better than their father, I'd think, and obviously than the mother.
Rob H.
(5,851 posts)Thanks, muriel. 
mr blur
(7,753 posts)every day, but a couple of people here already do that, so...what would be the point?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)Of course, having politicians that cared for it's citizens and actually tried to do something for those of us that are unbalanced, would go a long way toward stopping such scenarios as the OP.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)abuses people with serious psychiatric illnesses.
In many cases, religious organizations provide the services for these people that no one else provides.
Whatever happened in this case, I feel sure that the psychiatrically ill would be much worse off than they currently were if there were not services and resources being supplied by religious organizations.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)However, it seems pretty obvious that religion can help make existing mental illness much worse and much more harmful. Religion often teaches there is something "other" than the natural world, and that those other things don't necessarily have rational, observable evidence to support them. What terrible mix that makes.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)...being not able to see things as they are or worse, Nuts.
Anything can be carried too far.. gambling, eating, phobias, whatever.
We all have our little idiosyncrasies. I remember my Father saying :If a group of strangers threw their fears and mental problems in the center of a circle, (to split up) everybody would be dashing in to get their own back.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)to use it in the future.
I find using these tragic cases to try and score points in an anti-religion crusade disgusting. Its just gross exploitation of the psychiatrically ill, who are already abused and exploited at every turn.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You should stop that.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Sorry if you can't cope with having that simple truth pointed out, or if you would rather hide it. I know it disrupts your agenda, but tough.