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rug

(82,333 posts)
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 01:11 PM Mar 2012

People Are Born with Religious Belief Argues New Book

A controversial new book contends that we are all born predisposed to religious belief. Justin L. Barrett discusses his research, his feud with Richard Dawkins—and why he’s a believer himself.

Mar 28, 2012 4:45 AM EDT
Jesse Singal

One day, Anna, the 5-year-old daughter of two “proudly secular, well-educated urban Danes,” asked her mother if God had created the world. Frederick, her father, carefully explained, “The world wasn’t created. It has always been here.” Anna didn’t buy it, so he went a little more in-depth: “Well, a long, long time ago there was this big bang and suddenly everything just appeared.” The girl thought about this, trying to wrap her mind around a concept we all have trouble with.

“God must have been surprised,” she said.

It’s an unforgettable anecdote and a perfect encapsulation of Justin Barrett’s argument in his new book, Born Believers: The Science of Children’s Religious Belief. Kids aren’t blank slates upon which we inscribe our religious or irreligious convictions. Rather, they arrive in the world with a strong, cognitively driven propensity for religious belief “preinstalled”—and, as in Anna’s case, it can be difficult to shake.

At first glance, it seems like the sort of books atheists and secularists everywhere would want to commit to memory. After all, Barrett, a psychologist at Fuller Theological Seminary who has dedicated his career to untangling the cognitive underpinnings of religious belief (his earlier book, Why Would Anyone Believe in God?, is an excellent primer on the subject), argues forcefully and convincingly that when it comes to kids’ brains, the deck is stacked against atheism. Children come into this world predisposed toward believing in supernatural entities—their “minds are naturally tuned up to believe in gods generally, and perhaps God in particular.” Drawing from a wide array of studies and experiments, including his own, Barrett shows that kids don’t need to be indoctrinated into religion, because their hardwiring all but guarantees that they will be believers, of a sort, whether or not their parents want them to be.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/28/people-are-born-with-religious-belief-argues-new-book.html

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People Are Born with Religious Belief Argues New Book (Original Post) rug Mar 2012 OP
I certainly wasn't. Arugula Latte Mar 2012 #1
Yeah. I am real sure that five year old was never ever exposed to any christianity CBGLuthier Mar 2012 #2
Keep reading. While *membership* is high, less than 10% actually attend church. cbayer Mar 2012 #4
But you don't have to attend church to be exposed to the concept of God LeftishBrit Mar 2012 #11
My experience with Scandanavians, while anecdotal, is fairly extensive at this point. cbayer Mar 2012 #14
As regards Australians... LeftishBrit Mar 2012 #22
Due to your proximity to Scandanavia and your being a member of the Commonwealth, cbayer Mar 2012 #25
So from your experience Goblinmonger Mar 2012 #53
Really interesting read. cbayer Mar 2012 #3
I wasn't. I found Sunday School with God, the Bible Stories, etc. hard to believe. no_hypocrisy Mar 2012 #5
Sounds like an interesting book. Jim__ Mar 2012 #6
Kids of atheists - no matter how hard their parents might try to insulate them from religion TlalocW Mar 2012 #7
I've had two Chinese foreign exchange students... PassingFair Mar 2012 #43
I was born Buddhist, just like in my previous lives. :) nt Speck Tater Mar 2012 #8
The same group holds more reverence for the fetus than the unborn liberal N proud Mar 2012 #9
What group are you referring to? cbayer Mar 2012 #17
I think he's talking about the dumbass creationists. n/t Goblinmonger Mar 2012 #55
nonsense. nt bowens43 Mar 2012 #10
Astounding bongbong Mar 2012 #12
By your measurement then, there is no evidence infants are born atheist. rug Mar 2012 #13
Uhhh.... bongbong Mar 2012 #19
No. rug Mar 2012 #23
Strawman alert! bongbong Mar 2012 #26
I see. rug Mar 2012 #27
Strawman #2 bongbong Mar 2012 #29
And I'm sure your four year old self put up quite the argument. rug Mar 2012 #44
Yes! bongbong Mar 2012 #47
And it appears your skills at argument have progressed little since. rug Mar 2012 #65
Yes x 2 bongbong Mar 2012 #66
Infants aren't born with any belief systems, as far as I'm aware of... Humanist_Activist Mar 2012 #51
Great points, a little anatomy and physiology of SamG Mar 2012 #59
Reminds me of a joke I heard years ago ... eppur_se_muova Mar 2012 #32
The variation I heard involved German Emperor Barborssa happyslug Mar 2012 #36
Riiiiiiight. I got kicked out of Sunday School when I was 8 catbyte Mar 2012 #15
It depends what you mean by being 'born with religious belief' LeftishBrit Mar 2012 #16
It's an interesting question. rug Mar 2012 #18
+1 n/t Silent3 Mar 2012 #20
Your post inspires me bongbong Mar 2012 #21
So far, there's no evidence indicating that God has to be a sky daddy. THAT may NOT be wired in. saras Mar 2012 #24
The author is clueless right from the start skepticscott Mar 2012 #28
Not only that... laconicsax Mar 2012 #34
There have been several experiments with children raised in isolation FarCenter Mar 2012 #30
Ah, but see my post above ! :D eppur_se_muova Mar 2012 #33
Another avenue of inquiry would be to study the religious beliefs of primitive people. FarCenter Mar 2012 #35
The course of human development from birth to adulthood involves SamG Mar 2012 #31
First it is clear baby do HAVE mental needs, mostly to do with interaction with other humans happyslug Mar 2012 #37
I'm not sure what your point is. But the nature of human and SamG Mar 2012 #38
There are also studies about Children given a choice between a beating and being rejected happyslug Mar 2012 #45
The heliocentric model mainly explains the seasons, rather than the times of sunrise and sunset FarCenter Mar 2012 #39
Sorry, despite Beatles lyrics, I might admire you SamG Mar 2012 #40
To be fair... LeftishBrit Mar 2012 #56
The riff on the Beatles was in reply to Happyslug and his riff on Sherlock Holmes FarCenter Mar 2012 #41
And the author of the book under discussion does NOT say children embrace theology happyslug Mar 2012 #46
Farmers used direct observations of equinox, solistices and calendars since the megalithic FarCenter Mar 2012 #49
The best farmers have the most "Farmer's Sayings"/anecdotes or "Old Wives takes" happyslug Mar 2012 #54
Based on that reasoning, kids' imaginary friends are real. Odin2005 Mar 2012 #42
In many ways there are. happyslug Mar 2012 #48
But that doesn't make them REAL. Odin2005 Mar 2012 #50
That depends on your definition of "Real" happyslug Mar 2012 #57
Your post intrigues me and I am grateful for your input here. cbayer Mar 2012 #60
You you think the voices in a schizophrenic's head are real? Odin2005 Mar 2012 #61
Real to them, that's for sure. cbayer Mar 2012 #63
Seems like a book riddled with anecdotes and confirmation bias. Humanist_Activist Mar 2012 #52
Like the Nazi did in regards to cold water temperature survival? happyslug Mar 2012 #58
I mention the problem of ethics in a post above, no need to go off the wall about it. Humanist_Activist Mar 2012 #62
To interrupt the conversation here... LeftishBrit Mar 2012 #64
Your are right, of course, I wasn't thinking of that, they do do studies on children... Humanist_Activist Mar 2012 #67
 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
1. I certainly wasn't.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 01:14 PM
Mar 2012

I remember hearing about "God" when I was a very young child and thinking, in so many words, "what a pantload."

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
2. Yeah. I am real sure that five year old was never ever exposed to any christianity
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 01:19 PM
Mar 2012

not in that atheist hell hole Denmark. So a kid believes in fairy tales. I used think Batman was real and he looked just like Adam West.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#Religion

According to official statistics from January 2011, 80.4%[97] of the population of Denmark are members of the Church of Denmark (Folkekirke), a Lutheran church that was made the Established Church and official state religion by the Constitution of Denmark.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
4. Keep reading. While *membership* is high, less than 10% actually attend church.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 01:24 PM
Mar 2012

Denmark, like most of Scandiniavia, is very secular.

LeftishBrit

(41,205 posts)
11. But you don't have to attend church to be exposed to the concept of God
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 02:30 PM
Mar 2012

It is there in the culture. Even children from nonbelieving families get exposed to the concept. Indeed, most atheists (including, I believe, Dawkins) think that children should learn about the Bible and the concept of God; otherwise, whatever they do or don't believe, they will be culturally illiterate.



cbayer

(146,218 posts)
14. My experience with Scandanavians, while anecdotal, is fairly extensive at this point.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 02:44 PM
Mar 2012

The only people I have met who are as secular as they are Australians.

If you were going to study cultures with little to no exposure to theism, those are some of the places I would look at.

LeftishBrit

(41,205 posts)
22. As regards Australians...
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 02:57 PM
Mar 2012

they may be secular, but they are certainly exposed to the concept of God.

Indeed, at the moment they are a single parliamentary seat away from having a Christian Right Prime Minister; but that is perhaps another matter.

At any rate, a country does not have to be strongly religious to have mention of God in the culture.

As regards Scandinavia: Although I am not very familiar with Denmark, I know Norway quite well, and I know that there are plenty of cultural references to God, even though church attendance is not high, and secularism and atheism are strong. Indeed, neither Norway nor Denmark has official separation of church and state; both have state churches.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
25. Due to your proximity to Scandanavia and your being a member of the Commonwealth,
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 03:18 PM
Mar 2012

I will defer to you on these points.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
53. So from your experience
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 09:08 AM
Mar 2012

do you think this little girl pulled the word "God" and the concept of that "god" completely out of the air or do you think she heard it somewhere else first?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
3. Really interesting read.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 01:21 PM
Mar 2012

I like this part of his conclusion:

"It’s understandable why the average American atheist, someone who is angry that fundamentalist beliefs have done a lot of damage in the world, that we’re still debating evolution in the U.S., might feel more sympathy to and connection with Dawkins’s work than Barrett’s. Dawkins, after all, is a crusading, outspoken advocate for atheism, so the fact that his stances on some rather complex psychological issues happen to be ill-informed may not register. Barrett, on the other hand, offers up rigorous but largely apolitical cognitive explanations for religion—and won’t dismiss the idea of God helping someone find a parking spot."

no_hypocrisy

(46,104 posts)
5. I wasn't. I found Sunday School with God, the Bible Stories, etc. hard to believe.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 01:25 PM
Mar 2012

Especially the part about God being "everywhere". Even at 6, I found that logistically impossible.

TlalocW

(15,382 posts)
7. Kids of atheists - no matter how hard their parents might try to insulate them from religion
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 01:33 PM
Mar 2012

Are still going to be exposed to the concept. This is probably true of most of the world. The one exception I can think of is a memory I have of a college professor talking about how some of his Chinese exchange students are, "refreshingly, pure atheist," in that the thought of gods never even occurred to them. He told us of some of them asking him to explain Christianity to them after they came over to America, and he gave them the basics, and their eyes got bigger and bigger the more he talked, and at the end, they asked, "And Americans really believe these stories?"

TlalocW

PassingFair

(22,434 posts)
43. I've had two Chinese foreign exchange students...
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:07 PM
Mar 2012

I tried to explain Easter to one of them and had to give up.

"You see, some people in America believe that a man was
nailed to a cross, and then came back to life...and that's
why you get this basket of chocolate and candy beans."

They seem to understand traditional rites of passage, but
they don't worship anything.

I find them refreshing as well.

liberal N proud

(60,334 posts)
9. The same group holds more reverence for the fetus than the unborn
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 02:06 PM
Mar 2012

They see corporations as people and living breathing post birth people as worthless.

They are just throwing out more of their twisted ideology.

 

bongbong

(5,436 posts)
12. Astounding
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 02:33 PM
Mar 2012

> It’s an unforgettable anecdote and a perfect encapsulation of Justin Barrett’s argument in his new book, B

So the "perfect encapsulation" of his book is something that resembles nothing other than a completely-uncontrolled experiment. Unless that kid was locked in a Skinner Box from birth, there is no way to come to any conclusion at all about where she got "her" idea about a sky genie.

And then later, "Barrett, on the other hand, offers up rigorous but largely apolitical cognitive explanations for religion" (bolding mine)

What a load of bullshit.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
13. By your measurement then, there is no evidence infants are born atheist.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 02:44 PM
Mar 2012

What experiment would you design to prove this hypothesis?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
23. No.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 02:59 PM
Mar 2012

You are stating positively both a) that infants are born without any concept of what is commonly referred to supernatural existence and b) they are incapable of such.

I'm not asking you to prove it, I'm asking you what parameters of an experiment you would use to test that hypothesis.

 

bongbong

(5,436 posts)
26. Strawman alert!
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 03:28 PM
Mar 2012

> ou are stating positively both a) that infants are born without any concept of what is commonly referred to supernatural existence and b) they are incapable of such.

I'm not sure whose post you're referring to. Can't be mine, I never said either of those things. If you can point out anything I posted that can even remotely be construed as such, let me know.

> I'm not asking you to prove it, I'm asking you what parameters of an experiment you would use to test that hypothesis.

I would ask the Flying Spaghetti Monster to design the experiment, because as we all know, thoughts don't happen from thought processes. They are injected into our brains by the Thought Creator, AKA the FSM.




Seriously, if you're in the mood for a "I can prove to you that religion is REAL" argument, look elsewhere. I started on that path when I was four years old (arguing with a Catholic priest), and ended at 17 (in college, when some religionists tried to argue with me, and their only answer to my logic-bomb question that day was "God wouldn't do that!&quot . Now, I don't care if you wanna believe in something supernatural. Just don't try to make it public policy.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
27. I see.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 03:45 PM
Mar 2012

I suppose the testing of your hypothesis would be as fruitful as asking you to recount your dialogue as four year old while you were confounding a priest.

 

bongbong

(5,436 posts)
29. Strawman #2
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 04:00 PM
Mar 2012

> your dialogue as four year old while you were confounding a priest.

Never said I "confounded" him, merely that I argued with him.

Two (strawman) strikes & you're OUT.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
51. Infants aren't born with any belief systems, as far as I'm aware of...
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 01:18 AM
Mar 2012

they simply don't have the cognitive ability to form any concepts beyond the most basic at birth. Humans, as a consequence of our evolution of large brains, are born, by default "premature", otherwise we wouldn't be able to be born at all. Indeed, our brains are very underdeveloped compared to other mammals at birth, due to having to have a skull that will BARELY fit through a mother's pelvis.

As a result, most of the development of the brain occurs after birth, not before, and after birth, we are exposed to a lot of concepts, beliefs, and etc. are learned, rather than "hard wired" or instinctual.

As far as predisposition, this is would be hard to test simply because it would be impossible to ethically do a proper test, unless you are willing to isolate infants for the first, let's say, 5 years of life from all outside influence.

Actually, to a certain extent, this wouldn't even be a valid test in itself, studies of feral children, for example, show that their cognitive development is hindered by lack of social interactions with other humans, language, ability to recognize individuals, etc. atrophy, and in some cases, can't be rehabilitated, they become brain damaged, in a way.

If infants(and children) have any predisposition, it is this, trusting an authority and absorbing information, they process and absorb a lot of information, their brains grow at an enormous rate in the first several years of life.

 

SamG

(535 posts)
59. Great points, a little anatomy and physiology of
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:11 AM
Mar 2012

child development is very helpful to the discussion.

Children learn trust and basic concrete concepts from their primary care-givers in the first years.

Children of incapable of abstract conceptual thought much before 2 at the earliest, as they gain language skills, (language acquisition stimulates growth in thinking, and vice versa).

To say that infant brains are "predisposed" to concepts of God is like saying infant brains are "predisposed" to any further brain development over the years, to encompass both facts and fiction.

eppur_se_muova

(36,262 posts)
32. Reminds me of a joke I heard years ago ...
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 05:24 PM
Mar 2012

A Greek king and a Persian king got into an argument over man's "natural" language. The Greek king insisted that it was Greek, of course, and the Persian king insisted that it was Persian. So they proposed an experiment -- the kind that only kings could get away with. They took a newborn baby boy from its mother and carried him off to be raised by a hermit high in the hills, far away from any other people. The hermit -- who was a deaf-mute -- provided the baby with goat's milk and raised him to the age of twelve. At that time, the two kings stopped by to see how their experiment had turned out. When they knocked at the door of the hermit's cabin, the boy answered the door. The two kings silently glanced at each other, and then nervously waited for the boy to speak. Finally, the boy opend his mouth and gave voice to: Baaaaaaaah!

(This is a fun joke to tell, if you can do a convincing goat bleat. )

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
36. The variation I heard involved German Emperor Barborssa
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 06:14 PM
Mar 2012

He wanted to know what was the natural language of newborns, so he had a group of Mothers raise their children from birth WITHOUT speaking to them, so their Natural language would appear. The test lasted about a year, at the end the results were clear, all the babes had died....

Some question if the experiment ever took place (The story is sometime given to Emperor Henry II) but was reported at the same time of the "Living Memory" of both emperiors (i.e. within the life times of their Grandchildren). It is told in classes in regards to the need of new borns to have not only physical contact with their mothers (and other people in their family) but also VERBAL interaction. i.e. "Baby talk".

catbyte

(34,386 posts)
15. Riiiiiiight. I got kicked out of Sunday School when I was 8
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 02:45 PM
Mar 2012

for asking "inconvenient" questions like, "If God made everything, who made God?" etc. They told my folks to just keep me home, LOL.

LeftishBrit

(41,205 posts)
16. It depends what you mean by being 'born with religious belief'
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 02:45 PM
Mar 2012

Certainly, children are not born with any particular sort of religious belief, or we'd all have the same religion. It needs to be remembered that though most of the world has some sort of religion, not all religions believe in a single God; many are polytheistic; some are non-theistic, e.g. ancestor worship. So it's unlikely that we're pre-programmed to believe in a single God.

What a lot of research, as well as personal observation, does indicate is that children (a) tend to look for causes of events ("Mummy, why is the sky blue?'; and (b) tend to reason in a somewhat concrete way, rather than to think in very abstract terms. Thus, complex concepts of time and space and causation are even more difficult for children than for their elders. If something exists, then somebody made it! In particular, children are inclined to think in anthropomorphic terms: the sun gets up because it wants to; that naughty table hit me on purpose! Judging from the number of adults who scold their computers, I am not sure that this stage is ever fully outgrown.

Personal example: At the age of around four, I asked my mother 'Why do we have night?' (on the basis that if we didn't have night, I wouldn't have to go to bed!) My atheist mother replied, 'Well, nature made it.' I concluded that there was a very nasty man called Nature somewhere, and that if I ever met him I would tell him off for this most regrettable invention of night!

Thus, if children have heard of God, and most children have in Europe, they will at times invoke God as a cause. This does not prove the existence of God, any more than children's tendency also to believe in magic proves the existence of magic. (On the other hand, of course it doesn't disprove it.

 

bongbong

(5,436 posts)
21. Your post inspires me
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 02:52 PM
Mar 2012

In the future, every time I hear a child ask "where does X come from?", or "why is X?", I'll answer "the Flying Spaghetti Monster". It is as valid as "God", and is much more appetizing.

 

saras

(6,670 posts)
24. So far, there's no evidence indicating that God has to be a sky daddy. THAT may NOT be wired in.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 03:05 PM
Mar 2012
 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
28. The author is clueless right from the start
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 03:46 PM
Mar 2012

"People Are Born with Religious Belief Argues New Book" is his first statement, and then he follows with: "A controversial new book contends that we are all born predisposed to religious belief."

Being born with something and being born predisposed to something are two very different things. People are born predisposed to many things, but with most traits having a genetic basis, whether and to what degree they actually develop depends to a significant degree on the developmental environment. Being born predisposed to certain cancers is not the same as being born with cancer, and being born with a predisposition to acquire language is not the same as being born with perfect fluency.

It's a fundamental and critical distinction, one that some of the posters here also seem not to have grasped. And of course, even if humans ARE predisposed to religiosity of some sort (as they may well be), and even if every single human actually does develop religious beliefs, that says nothing about whether the "gods" they come to believe in actually exist.

 

laconicsax

(14,860 posts)
34. Not only that...
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 05:47 PM
Mar 2012

The predisposition is toward superstition and magical thinking--exactly the stuff that some vehemently deny to be at the core of religion.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
30. There have been several experiments with children raised in isolation
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 04:07 PM
Mar 2012

The Holy Roman Emporer Fredrick II had a group of children raised in isolation. Not only did they not spontaneously develop a concept of God, but they never learned to speak, failed to thrive and died.

Other experiments to determine the natural language of mankind (hypothesized by James IV of Scotland to be Hebrew) have had similar results. If the children survive, they lack language.

Similarly, the theology of feral children who have been raised by animals or who have survived on their own appears to be undeveloped, along with language skills.

eppur_se_muova

(36,262 posts)
33. Ah, but see my post above ! :D
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 05:31 PM
Mar 2012

(Actually, thanks for posting this info. I hadn't heard about any of these, though I would think someone should have thought to ask this about feral children.) Feral children are in a similar situation as children who were misdiagnosed as mentally deficient when in fact they were largely deaf. When the mistake was realized after years of growing up without hearing spoken language, it was too late for them to acquire language skills -- even though they could learn to speak, they couldn't construct proper sentences.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
35. Another avenue of inquiry would be to study the religious beliefs of primitive people.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 05:54 PM
Mar 2012

For example, the religion of neolithic level New Guinea farmers or Australian aborigines may be indicative of the religous "predisposition". I doubt that they have well developed trinitarian concepts or independently invented the distinction between substance and appearances as required for a discussion of transubstantiation.

 

SamG

(535 posts)
31. The course of human development from birth to adulthood involves
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 04:35 PM
Mar 2012

considerable numbers of years of growth and learning.

The study of children's learning and growth is a huge and complex area of intellectual research, worldwide.

"Barrett, a psychologist at Fuller Theological Seminary" (not a child development cognitive researcher)


So one has to realize when the wool is being pulled over one's eyes, in the name of "science".

At birth, children are no more "predisposed" to being religious believers or nonbelievers than they are to speaking Chinese or English, or to liking peas or broccoli, sushi, or tofu.

And this is where religious believers get off the bus before it turns onto the street of rigorous, double blind, serious scientific inquiry and objective peer review. They draw conclusions before they set up the experiment, or they simply say things like:

"Children come into this world predisposed toward believing in supernatural entities".

Do they?

How about "Chidren me into this world accepting of information provided by their care-provider parents"?
How about "Adults often use supernatural stories and fairy tales to teach children valuable lessons, to inspire, to stir the imagination, or for any number of other reasons". Adults do this with children in story and song and in dance in all cultures worldwide, as part of "child rearing". Those are facts.

Just how would one measure a child to have a "strong, cognitively driven propensity for religious belief “preinstalled”? How would that measurement differ from any other "strong, cognitively driven propensity" to learn to play, to engage with other humans?

I think one begins to see the nature and tone of this book, it is a response to Dawkins, who, himself, never pretends to be a researcher in child cognitive development, Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist.

But where is Justin Barrett’s research?

Here's the statement, (much of it in Barrett's own words) for his entry in Wikipedia.

Barrett is described in the New York Times as a "prominent member of the byproduct camp" and "an observant Christian who believes in “an all-knowing, all-powerful, perfectly good God who brought the universe into being,” [and] “that the purpose for people is to love God and love each other.” He considers that “Christian theology teaches that people were crafted by God to be in a loving relationship with him and other people, Why wouldn’t God, then, design us in such a way as to find belief in divinity quite natural?”...


Talk about lack of objectivity in research!
 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
37. First it is clear baby do HAVE mental needs, mostly to do with interaction with other humans
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:12 PM
Mar 2012

Such interaction has been known for centuries. I mentioned the story of Emperor Barbarossa and trying to find the "Natural Language" of people and the results of that experiment. This all shows a NEED to interact with other people, and if that includes the need to worship together, babies will do so.

Furthermore, one of the aspects of the New Stone Age Culture from the older old Stone Age Culture is a larger sense of Community and a need to interact as one "tribe". This was based on old stone age culture which required each family to retain a sense of unity, but no need for any higher sense of unity. This higher sense of Unity is the primary SOCIAL difference between Old Stone age and New Stone age people. One aspect of this required a more united view of spirits and other "gods" that most primitive people used as part of how they view the world.

Our concept of God grew out of this more untied sense of how natural worked. IT was a WORKABLE explanation. It was a USABLE Explanation. In one of Doyle's Sherlock Holmes Stories, Doyle had Holmes NOT knowing the Earth revolved around the sun until told by Dr Watson. Holmes said that was interesting but the work he did could be done with the assumption the Sun revolved around the earth. That theory provided all the Data he needed to solve the cases he was investigating and since the mind can only hold so much knowledge he would promptly forget what Dr Watson had told him for it was USELESS Information for the work he was doing (i.e detective work).

Doyle's purpose for that short half page exchange between Holmes and Dr Watson was to show that many of the storied of old were USABLE explanation of how nature worked, and for most people those explanation were more then adequate. Does it really matter if the earth revolved around the sun, or the sun around the earth, when all you need to know when the Sunlight from the Sun will hit the part of the earth you are on and for how long? The answer is NO. The wrong theory is perfectly usable AND if a story can be connected to it that further unites people, then the story become more important then whatever is the Scientific fact.

People want as many people as possible to be "US" not "Them" and if to create more "US" requires embracing the ideas of others as our own we will do so. This includes the belief in God. Some people will reject this need to embrace what other's embrace, but most people will tend embrace what others in their network of friends embrace. That is human nature.

This is complicated by another factor in being human, the need to embrace ideas. When facing a choice, we will tend to embrace the idea that is SOMETHING as oppose to its negation. I first ran across this concept when studying the ratification process of the US Constitution. When the US Constitution was first proposed, it was OPPOSED by the majority of Americas. If it had been put up to a vote, most historian believed it would have been voted down. Then why was it passed? The people who opposed it were adamant that it was an attack on American Liberties. They mistake was NOT proposing an alternative, given the situation the American People had a choice, the US Constitution or nothing. Given that choice the American People ended up ratifying the US Constitution do to it being the ONLY Positive Choice. Had the opposition actually come up with a PLAN to improve the Articles of Confederation, the American People would have embraced that plan over the US Constitution, but the opposition never came up with an actual alternative, just a call for its rejection. Given a choice between a positive choice and a rejection of that choice, people by their nature will embrace the positive choice, even if they hate it.

This same part of Human Nature kicks in with the concept of "God". Atheists keep on attacking the concept, but by their very nature can NOT come up with an alternative (and vague terms like "Reason","Logic" etc are NOT alternatives, they are REJECTIONS of the concept of "GOD&quot . Most people, by their nature, will reject rejection and embrace a positive concept every time. Thus the concept of "God" survives and given the above two aspects of human nature is a concept hard to defeat. Thus the Concept of "God" may be "Hard wired" in our brains more as an aspect of our need to embrace concepts of our network of friends AND out need to embrace positive concepts over rejections of those concepts.

I suspect these are two of the concepts the author is trying to write about, the desire to embrace positive concepts AND to embrace the concepts of our network of Friends (The concept of "US" against the concept of "THEM&quot and thus the concept of God is a strong concept within our collective human data base and given that strong position within our collective human data base a very hard concept NOT to embrace.


 

SamG

(535 posts)
38. I'm not sure what your point is. But the nature of human and
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:11 PM
Mar 2012

child development is pretty universal, and falls within a certain predictive bell curve of possible growth and development milestones.

Children, even fetuses in the womb, acclimate their hearing to the sound of their mother's voice. So, after birth, they pay attention to their birth mother over other voices they hear. This is science, not wishful thinking, several experiments on newborn infants show that infants turn more toward the sound of their own biological mother's voice than toward fathers, or other women's voices, even other women who have recently given birth.

There's studies of when infants focus, when they clearly see a mother's face as opposed to other faces. There is evidence that what key words infants hear are the words they respond to with smiles or glances, or laughter.

All of this is cumulative. It takes over a year before babies start to recognize words strung together as having meaning... "want drink?", "want more food?", "want go byebye?&quot bedtime), etc. Childrend learn to associate words with their primal bodiliy functions, (eating sleeping,eliminating, etc.) before they learn any abstract concepts of more or less, good or bad, God or Satan.

This author wrote a book in response to evolutionary biologist, atheist, Richard Dawkins, with whom he obviously disagrees, so this guy is writing a book without any clear clinical discovery or repeatable "evidence" to go along with his "theory".

Let's talk about babies having "strong, cognitively driven propensity for" language, sucking, gumming, eating,reaching out, crying, babbling, etc. Those things are observable, replicatable, and universal.


So, leaving Sherock Holmes askide, (a total fictional character, by a fiction author), let's discuss where there is actual replicatable "EVIDENCE" of babies having a "strong, cognitively driven propensity for religious belief “preinstalled”.

Got anything? Does that author?

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
45. There are also studies about Children given a choice between a beating and being rejected
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:25 PM
Mar 2012

And given a choice between the two, a beating is the Child's first choice (i.e. if the cost to avoid rejection is a beating the child will opt for the beating rather then be rejected).

I use to see this at work when I did Children And Youth Work. We had to watch for it. It has been observed in Children in a Play yard, any child the other child refuse to play with or is rejected by either side in any type of ball game, feels worse then if the other children had beat him or her up. When the other children beat him or her up, they are acknowledging by they action he or she is part of their group, and for the victim that is a preferred over being rejected.

That is the point I was trying to make, that Children will try to be a member of any group they can join, whatever is the price. Gangs count on this when they recruit new gang members.

My point is this desire to belong is so strong that people, especially children, will embrace whatever is needed to be accepted by other members of society. It is hard to reject anything their friends embrace.

The Second point was that it is also human nature to embrace a positive action over a negative action i.e. it is easier for people to embrace the concept of ANYTHING (including God) then to REJECT anything (Including God). It is a part of Human Nature a whole lot of people do NOT like, for it makes us sound like we are animals driven by instinct as opposed to being rational beings. Yes that last sentence sounds like a negative concept that I am pointing out is generally rejected, but people do NOT have to reject it, for they can accept it AND still embrace the Concept we are rational beings. The reason for this is there is NO direct conflict between the two concepts, thus both can survive. On the other hand whenever people have to choice between the Concept of God or the rejection of that concept, it is a direct conflict and people will embrace the positive concept of God, over its rejection.

These two aspect of being Human, kicks in with young children. They will embrace any positive concept that their friends embrace. For example it is easier to get children to embrace the idea that they are better then other children because of their race (i.e. White Children are better then African American Children, so do not play with African American Children). Notice how that prejudice is framed in POSITIVE terms. Later on in life the same person may embrace negative justifications, but the original embrace tends to be of a positive nature.

My point is simple, we are hard wired to embrace the concepts we are exposed to by our friends. We are also hard wired to accept positive concepts over negative concepts. Together these two aspects of Human Nature makes the belief in God easier to embrace then the rejection of that idea. Thus we may NOT be hard wired to believe in God, we are hard wired to embrace that belief IF IT COMES UP and it will sooner or later for most people.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
39. The heliocentric model mainly explains the seasons, rather than the times of sunrise and sunset
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:21 PM
Mar 2012

Actually, IIRC, the path that the earth takes is a helix, given the motion of the sun around the galactic center. As for the rotation of the earth on its axis:

Day after day,
Alone on a hill,
The man with the foolish grin is keeping perfectly still
But nobody wants to know him,
They can see that he's just a fool,
And he never gives an answer,

But the fool on the hill,
Sees the sun going down,
And the eyes in his head,
See the world spinning 'round.

 

SamG

(535 posts)
40. Sorry, despite Beatles lyrics, I might admire you
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:42 PM
Mar 2012

for singing or partying with me with all Beatles tunes, bt you are drifting further and further away from the topic.

We can party together over Beatles lyrics, fine.

But what is the replicatable PROOF that this author proports regarding infants and their "propensity" to know about God?

Got somethng?

LeftishBrit

(41,205 posts)
56. To be fair...
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 09:15 AM
Mar 2012

Barrett does have a background in developmental and cognitive psychology. He got his Ph.D. at Cornell, and was for a while on the faculty of the University of Michigan.

I do however have some reservations about the objectivity of any research on related areas at the Fuller Graduate School of Psychology. To quote the website: 'Fuller's School of Psychology has been creating a pioneer program integrating evangelical Christian faith and psychology. By placing strong theological study in the heart of psychology, you will become clinical psychologists, marriage and family therapists, and educators who are prepared to serve with integrated professionalism and practice... Every faculty member is a committed Christian who integrates his or her discipline with personal faith and dedication to the teachings of Jesus Christ. These scholars and practitioners bring a wealth of training and experience to the classroom, including ministries beyond the seminary. You will learn the skills to bring the message of restoration, reconciliation, and redemption through your research, teaching, and clinical practice.' While it's perfectly possible to combine scientific psychology with a strong personal religious faith, it is difficult to combine it with being in a Department which 'intergrates evangelical religious faith and psychology'. In other words, only some types of interpretations of results are acceptable in the context; and this hinders objectivity.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
41. The riff on the Beatles was in reply to Happyslug and his riff on Sherlock Holmes
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:01 PM
Mar 2012

The author's got nothing. AFAIK, children raised in isolation, feral children, and primitive cultures either lack a notion of god or they have a fairly unsophisticated theology similar to animism. A belief in an afterlife may or may not be present, along with some sort of creation myth, but monotheism and modern theology are recent developments of religious and philiosophical speculation by intellectual people motivated by societal forces.

And actually, the Sun moves the distance of the radius of earth's orbit every 8 days, so the earth's motion is really a very stretched out helix.

While the choice of a geocentric or heliocentric frame of reference may make only a little difference for computing sunrise and sunset, the choice of a heliocentric frame of reference makes explaining the seasons a lot easier, and it greatly reduces the complexity of computing the orbits of the other planets. Therefore, not all explanatory frameworks are equal, and it is essential to have fools on the hill who conceive of new explanations, rather than agreeing with their friends.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
46. And the author of the book under discussion does NOT say children embrace theology
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 10:15 PM
Mar 2012

All the author is saying is they is a tendency to accept some form of belief in a higher power. In our culture that tends to be God, but in other culture that can be animism. i.e. some power beyond the person's knowledge has control over nature.

The Author of the book does NOT mention anything about a belief in afterlife, or any theological concepts. His point was simple, there seems to be an innate willingness to embrace the idea that some higher power has control over things a person himself or herself can NOT control. While the author is a Christian (and admits so in the book) he states NOTHING that shows an innate willingness to embrace any one religion or religion as a whole, just an innate willingness to embrace the concept that they are things in nature controlled by unseen forces AND those unseen forces are some form of spirit or god.

As to my comments on Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes books, I mention it for the simple reason it is one of classic comments that unimportant details should be avoided and is mostly worthless in most situations. Most people, even as late as the 1890s in the US, were farmers and it did not matter to them WHY the seasons occurred, but that they did. For such farmers the heliocentric theory was of no more value to them then the story of Ceres/Demeter and her daughter Proserpina/Persephone in explaining the coming of Spring and winter. A farmer's main concern was when to plant his crops and with that in mind the story of Proserpina/Persephone having to spend half the year in Hades with her husband, Dis Pater/Pluto the ruler of Hades (Orcus is sometime used in place of Dis Pater, Orcus seems to have been a Roman god that NEVER made it into the official gods of the City of Rome, Dis Pater being the god of the Dead in Rome itself, Orcus survived in the rural parts of the Roman Republic and the later Empire. See even I get into irrelevant details that Doyle was attacking in that paragraph he wrote in that Sherlock Holmes Story).

This concept of irrelevant details a lot of people on DU dislike. Details can be important, but is it important to the subject at hand? For a farmer, which story is more relevant to when crops should be planted? The heliocentric theory or the story of Proserpina having to spend half the year with Dis Pater causing her mother Ceres to be so sad that the crops died but when Proserpina returned in the spring, it was time to plant crops for Ceres was happy and the land was made warm by her happiness for Proserpina had come back to her (Yes, I am using the Latin Names for these gods, not the Greek Names).

For most farmer either story will work when it comes to the time to plant their crop. Thus for farmers is one theory better then the other? The answer is NO, both will work, which was the point Doyle was making with his comment he had Sherlock Holmes make to Dr Watson. If a theory is useful, even if based on nothing, as long as it is useful it is good.


 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
49. Farmers used direct observations of equinox, solistices and calendars since the megalithic
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 10:33 PM
Mar 2012

Not literary balderdash.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
54. The best farmers have the most "Farmer's Sayings"/anecdotes or "Old Wives takes"
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 09:09 AM
Mar 2012

When a Study was done on Farmers and Farmer's sayings (anecdotes) , the accuracy of the sayings was found NOT to be a factor, just the number of anecdotes they knew. These sayings are used as memory guides, disregarded when they clearly did not apply, followed when they did. The old stories started out as such memory guides, but given the lack of the ability to read and write, better remembered as a story then data. Another characteristic noted by Psychologists and other Social Scientists based on studies of how people act and how they remember things and hand down information from one generation to the next.

Most of the stories of the old gods started out as such memory guides (Orcus and Ceres were among the last two Roman gods worshiped, outlasting all the other gods of Ancient Rome and Greece for their stories reflected the crop planting and harvesting cycles thus were part of the collective memory when it came to when to plant and harvest).

We have to remember a lot of information, even today, if given out informally i.e. in the form of people talking and watching what others do and say. Prior to the widespread adoption of the idea that people should be able to read and write, people remember things in the form of stories. The reason for that is while the actual wording can change form one person to another, the underlying story stays the same (Thus it is better to read Jesus's parables to understand what he was preaching then any one line sentence attributed to him, the one line sentences are easier to misquote but the parables, being stories are harder to misquote as to point of the story and the reason Jesus used parables).

In non-writing societies (or that part of society that did not read or write, 90% of the population prior to about 1800 even in "Western Countries" such as Europe and the US) stories is how they remember "equinox, solistices and calendars" and other observations as to dates, thus their importance in most societies till long after 1800.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
48. In many ways there are.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 10:18 PM
Mar 2012

Children develop imaginary friends to fill a void do to the lack of friends OR an attempt to develop ways to make friends. Thus for the Child with such friends they are "Real" for such imaginary friends are helping the child to deal with the child's innate nature to want to have friends and to make the compromises to interact with other children so the children become friends.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
57. That depends on your definition of "Real"
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 09:43 AM
Mar 2012

If you adopt a test that to be "real" it must be something you can touch and feel (or otherwise directly observe) then these imaginary friends are NOT real, but if you trying to see HOW someone thinks and reacts to others then they are real, in the sense it is a factor in how that person deals with the world.

To dismiss these concepts as NOT REAL, is to leave them sit they on the side of the road till they bite you in the ass. Psychologist (The author of the book we are commenting on is a noted Psychologist) see this in their profession all the time, as do social scientists (as a Lawyer, I have seen it in my clients and I have had to accept these concepts as real, in the sense I have to deal with them).

Thus when studies one deal with people these unobservable concepts (including imagery friends) are as real as anything you can touch and feel. Among Social Scientist and Psychologists such concepts must be dealt with, not dismissed with disdain and thus are REAL in the sense it has to be addressed.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
60. Your post intrigues me and I am grateful for your input here.
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:35 AM
Mar 2012

I have also dealt extensively with people whose perceptions of reality differed from my one and from most of the population. To dismiss their perceptions as "unreal" is fruitless and even counterproductive.

It was not until I was able to recognize that their perceptions were as real as my own that I was truly able to work with them. It was amazingly enlightening to me.

Who is to say what is real and what is not? Because a larger segment of a population perceives things a certain way, does that make it closer to the truth?

One of my favorite movies ever is Rashomon. It taught me a great deal about individual perceptions and reality and I need to rewatch it from time to time to remind myself that just because I see something one day does not mean it is that way.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
63. Real to them, that's for sure.
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 01:24 PM
Mar 2012

If you start from the premise that they are not real to them, you won't get very far in trying to help them.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
52. Seems like a book riddled with anecdotes and confirmation bias.
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 01:22 AM
Mar 2012

Anecdotes are cute and sound convincing, but unless there's a large scale double blind study I'm not aware of, this sounds like pseudoscience, not real science.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
58. Like the Nazi did in regards to cold water temperature survival?
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:06 AM
Mar 2012

Remember we are dealing with PEOPLE, not animals and any double blind study has to do what the Nazis did in their study on Cold Water Temperature Survival, a test group who were dumped into the cold waters, and a control group who were not but otherwise given the same food, clothing and other care (Twins were idea subjects, one to go through the cold weather tests the other as the control).

Since, hopefully you reject what the Nazis did to the twins, you understand why it is hard to do a true "large scale double blind study" in this subject matter, and thus we have to use observations, In such "large scale double blind study" means handling children, as similar as they can be (Twins are ideal) in two different ways by their parents (to make sure we keep the two groups as similar treated as possible other then the subject the study is set up to test). Another way to do so is to take twins from their natural parents and give one child to one set of parents and the other to another set of parents, to make sure one is exposed to the idea being tested while the other is not (AND both sets of new parents rigidly controlled to keep difference in treatment to the children to a minimum).

Just thinking of HOW to do a "large scale double blind study" quickly show such a study, while not impossible, violates all types of rules of ethics.. Given that situation we have to use observations, as the next best way to obtain evidence. This is how the theory of Evolution was developed and how it has been able to defeat all other theories as to how animals and people became what they are (Almost impossible to do a double blind study on evolution given the time period evolution occurs, thus we rely on observation of fossils and how they changed NOT actual animals as they evolve).

Thus this author's observation are valid, but can be challenged by other observations. As to how valid are his observations we may have to wait and see, but it is in interesting point of view.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
62. I mention the problem of ethics in a post above, no need to go off the wall about it.
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 12:36 PM
Mar 2012

Jeez, mention the Nazis at the drop of the hat, will ya?

Also, for adults, we do double blind studies all the time in medicine, but we are different from the Nazis, we ask for volunteers.

For kids this isn't possible, that doesn't mean that his observations are automatically valid, they are still anecdotes, and hence carry no evidential weight. Indeed, there are no controls for outside influences at all. The anecdote I see mentioned above is a typical example, a 5 year old ask atheist parents about God, guess what, even if the parents never mentioned God, that kid was born and raised in a culture where God, Jesus, etc. are still mentioned, even if no one goes to church. So its not exactly surprising the kid is asking questions about a guy they heard about in daycare/preschool, on TV, Radio or even the Internet. That doesn't indicate anything beyond the culture still mentions those things.

LeftishBrit

(41,205 posts)
64. To interrupt the conversation here...
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 02:23 PM
Mar 2012

I may be the one person on this thread who actually does research in developmental psychology, though not with regard to religion. It is possible to get children to take part in studies; the ethics of this involves two parts: you must get informed consent from a parent, and you must never press a child, even mildly, to begin or continue to take part if they don't want to. In my experience most young children are quite keen to do tasks, answer questions, or play games with the researcher.

Some factors are relatively easy to control; e.g. making sure that any two comparison groups are matched for age and gender. Others are not. For example, finding children in the UK, let alone the USA, who have never heard of God is basically impossible. And yes, bringing up a child in such isolation that they were not exposed to the concept would be most unethical The only way to do a somewhat controlled study would be through cross-cultural research - and even there, there are very few cultures that have no exposure to any form of religion; it might be more a matter of looking for differences between monotheistic, polytheistic and nontheistic religions.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
67. Your are right, of course, I wasn't thinking of that, they do do studies on children...
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 04:36 PM
Mar 2012

play games, perform tests, etc. I guess the best way is as you said, a type of survey of children raised in, for example, the United States, from parts of India, and parts of China.

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