Why does the Catholic Church have an entire set of rules and regulations on exorcisms...

[cleanhippie]

if hearing voices and thinking people are possessed by demons is nothing but mental illness?


From the Vatican:

When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism. Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing. In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called "a major exorcism," can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c4a1.htm

That last line is peculiar. How does one tell the difference between real possession and mental illness?


The bottom line is, the Catholic Church DOES think that demonic possession is REAL and true. So where does the line exist between mental illness and real demonic possession?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Mental illness is real; demonic possession is not.

Believing in demonic possession may be a sign of mental illness. At best, the church is suffering from a medieval hangover.

[Scuba]

2. Do they have another set of rules and regulations for pedophilia?

It's way more real than being "possessed by demons".

[Drale]

8. Yes they do

Rule 1-You do not talk about fight club, I mean having sex with children.

[cleanhippie]

19. Yes, the rule is keep it on the down-low and if the public finds out...

They hide and protect the priests.

[jberryhill]

3. They have regulations on repossessions too

But a lot of the paperwork is screwed up.

They repossessed a guy in Florida the other day for allegedly falling behind on payments for his exorcism, and he wasn't even Catholic!

[rug]

4. Is there a reason you did not put this in boldface:

"Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science."

The fact is the Catholic Church believes there is a God, as well as angels and fallen angels. Exorcism is part of baptism. It also teaches that, on very rare occasions, there are instances of demonic possession. That's why it has a Rite of Exorcism.

Where have you been?

The fact remains, psychosis has nothing to do with religion.

[trotsky]

10. Is there a reason you ignored this question in the OP:

How does one tell the difference between real possession and mental illness?

[rug]

11. Yeah. It's a stupid question.

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. Clearly, the Vatican disagrees with you

They think it's an important question. However, that page gives no idea how they go about deciding it.

Apparently, the exorcist must have 'moral certainty of demonic possession': http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JKgZEjvB5cEC&lpg=PA1405&ots=GJ4JLJAu3o&dq=%22canon%22%20%221172%22%20%22exorcism%22&pg=PA1406#v=onepage&q=%22canon%22%20%221172%22%20%22exorcism%22&f=false

[rug]

14. The Vatican takes the matter seriously.

I believe they require the dioceses to have significant medical and psychological evaluations before authorizing a formal exorcism.

[skepticscott]

17. So why would they do those evaluations

To answer a question that you have certified as "stupid"?

[cleanhippie]

20. Because calling my question stupid is his way of calling me stupid.

He thinks it's clever.

[rug]

22. The Vatican always ignores my certifications.

[cleanhippie]

34. And you ignore theirs.

[skepticscott]

44. Translation: Constantly arguing

from false premises, as apologetics requires me to do, leads me to say really stupid things, and sometimes a lame and laughable response is all I have, because, god knows, I have to say SOMETHING.

[rug]

45. You should demand a refund from Rosetta Stone.

But I appreciate the effort.

[trotsky]

51. Yep, you nailed it there. n/t

[cleanhippie]

55. skepticscott FTW!!!!

[trotsky]

18. Why?

It's a perfectly reasonable question, and in fact, is the crux of the problem in all the threads that deal with the topic.

But that no believer on DU has ever been able to offer up an answer tells me exactly what I already knew.

[rug]

21. When confronted with a psychotic slitting a child's throat, it's stupid to immediately cry Religion!

Particularly when they are more likely explanations at hand.

[trotsky]

23. So is the difference when someone is physically harming someone else?

Then it's NOT demons, for sure?

[rug]

24. Such an unlined, innocent question.

[trotsky]

29. If only you would answer the original one.

Your church (the one you support with your money, time, and membership) thinks there is a clear distinction. I don't understand why you won't explain it.

[rug]

30. I don't understand why you don't look it up.

Can't flame a wikipedia entry?

[trotsky]

31. It's your church.

I figured you would know a better answer than what one might find on Wikipedia.

http://bit.ly/aCwymy

[rug]

32. Of course you did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_de_botton

[trotsky]

42. Why didn't you just link to this one?

http://tinyurl.com/jsh2s

You're taking all the fun out of defeating you, rug. It's like you don't even try before you whip out the white flag these days.

[rug]

46. Pay particular attention to the second sentence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desperation

[trotsky]

49. I do understand how you must feel trying to defend your church and its policies.

But thanks for the link anyway!

[mr blur]

33. There "are more likely explanations at hand" for all of the things Christians believe,

Sadly, you don't seem at all interested in considering them when they conflict with what your church tells you.

How convenient it must be to be able to tell the difference between a psychotic and someone possessed by demons - are they only "psychotic" when they actually kill people, or do you have to be a specially-trained priest to spot the difference?

[rug]

35. It's really creepy to use what's happened to this family to make failed points about religion.

Why don't you dig up some current famines and blame it on religious delusions? Maybe you can find a three-legged dog somewhere and work it in.

But before you do, don't forget to tell the survivors of this woman's family that this would not, no, could not, have happened had she only embraced cool, godless reason.

[Green_Lantern]

26. well...a psychologist can diagnose mental illness but they can't diagnose evil influence

Calling it a demon before consulting medical diagnostics doesn't happen.

[trotsky]

43. So are you saying...

that if mental health diagnostics can't figure something out, THEN it's a demonic possession?

[Green_Lantern]

58. no, not at all..

I'm saying when the Catholic church does an exorcism it is only after medical tests are exhausted.

They don't deny the existence of mental illness.

[CBGLuthier]

5. It is a complicated formula involving

measuring the mass and speed of the green vomit and multiplying it by the degree of neck turn achieved.

Extra points for blasphemous masturbation are optional.

[TheMastersNemesis]

6. Rites Of Exorcism

I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools for 16 1/2 years. When I was in grade school the nun started reading the report on an exorcism that had been actually performed. She only read part of it as part of our religion class. And there are a set of criteria that must be met in order to have one performed.

It is a very stringent ritual and only priests trained for exorcism can do the ritual. They are "spiritual Navy Seals" of the Catholic Church. The assistants in exorcism are not allowed to engage with the possessed in any way. No one is allowed to open their mouth or speak during the ritual except the priest who recites a series of encantations and retorts to the devil or devils possessing the person. There are supposedly documented cases of multiple possessions.

The priest is able to directly speak to the devil through the possessed. And the devil can speak in multiple languages and dialects. The devil can make the possessed's body do extraordinary things. The devil can also predict the future and do other extra paranormal things. Objects can be flung around the room. The participants in the exorcism can become possessed themselves. So there is a palpable danger during the process.

One of the most important determinations made for exorcism is that ability of the possessed to speak multiple tongues correctly where they had no access to knowledge or education that would explain such ability. There are other criteria I am not aware of.

20 20 or Dateline got permission from the Church to attend and film an exorcism as it was being performed many years ago. The broadcast it to the public. It was about a young woman who was possessed. I watched it and may have even recorded it and it may still be in my library I know not where.

It was real and it was straaaaaange. The woman was doing things completely other worldly and the exorcist was actually talking to an alleged devil through her. He was able to identify who this devel was by name. And this is on tape somewhere. It was NOT faked. When the exorcism ended the devil did leave the woman supposedly. What was most astounding was the complete and total change in this young ladies personality I had ever seen. She went from this raging out of control creature in a human body to this calm personable young woman instantly.

Now believe what you will, but it was hard to wonder what happened after seeing that independently documented ritual in that a major TV crew recorded it.

I have not practiced Catholicism for over 45 years. My post does not say I believe in devils. All I wanted to convey is that the film I saw makes you wonder what the H--L is going on? LOL.

[Moonwalk]

15. Devils can tell the future? I'm confused....

If the person possessed can tell the future...how can you know they're possessed if they're telling you something will happen that hasn't happened? I mean, I can say, "Two years from now there will be a huge wave that will destroy X city." Does the mean I'm possessed or do you have to wait two years to find out?

And if devils can tell the future, where does "free will" come in? Outside of predicting big waves, that is. If the devil predicts a certain winner for the presidential election, does that mean we don't have to vote? I'm not trying to make fun of these criteria for exorcisms, I'm just confused as to how such possession works with other teachings by the church, like free will, god being love, etc.

I also wonder how any of this fits in with other religions. There are those who would say that the person has been gifted if they can perform paranormal activities. There are those who say that a spirit takes them over, and that spirit--who can speak in another language--gives wise advice. There are those who speak in tongues and say god is in them when they do. There are those who say they see the future and that's a gift, etc. Why does the church see such as demonic rather than divine?

[Angry Dragon]

7. I believe that a truly loving god would

banish or kill Satan

[The Straight Story]

9. Problem is, we tend to define god by our own selves

IE we create him/her in our own minds and then say "Well, if I was god here is how I would handle it all".

Looking over the history of the human race things we did at one time make no sense now (and probably vice versa).

There are some things god cannot do (make a rock so big he cannot lift it, lie, etc and so on) - so god is limited in many ways by his own admission/"heavenly physics". Killing off satan right off the bat could make things 10 times worse for all we know.

And here, on earth, we are like gods to all the animals and to those in the past with all of our technology.

Yet look at us and how we use our power.

I'm not gonna criticize god until we use our own power to get shit straight.

[Moonwalk]

13. Um, maybe killing off satan is something god can't do...but then, why create Satan?

The big question is, can we say what god is or not? If we can't, then we might as well give up trying to do anything with god. Because we don't know "Its" powers or limitations or what it wants or what it will or will not do. For example, we don't know if "it" will answer our prayers--or which ones it will answer or why. We don't know why it created demons, or why it allows them to run rampant. etc. We just don't know. Which means "It" is what "It" is and there's no point in trying to figure it out, pray to it, etc. "It" will do what it wants or can do and as we have no say in that, why bother?

If we can know it--as bibles and priests and such all say they can--then we have to ask these questions. Like, why would something defined by priests, etc. as omniscient and omnipotent and good as god make satan? And if god can't do much about satan for reasons x, y, and z, why can't he do more about the humans he created--like make sure devils can't take 'em over? I mean, isn't it perplexing that exorcisms occur on those that are presumably sweet and innocent and not inviting those devils in? Shouldn't they be protected by god as defined by priests and bibles?

In short, none of it makes any sense. Either god can be known and therefore we should know the answers to these questions, or god is unknowable, and where is the point in worshiping what we can't know? In doing all these rituals and the like given that we can't know what it wants or why it wants it or what it's going to do?

I think I'll stick to "It's all mental illness," thank you. That means, we may not "yet" know, but we may figure it out.

[The Straight Story]

16. Satan was not always who he is today

God creates something with free-will (humans) and look how it can turn out.

Why not just destroy all humans way back when and leave it at that?

There are many things in the universe we can't know (yet) but we keep looking/researching. To turn god into an all powerful human seems, at times, rather silly.

We think inside of our own little box, but thinking outside of it can lead to more answers. People get comfortable with phrases/labels (god can do anything - without defining 'anything' in that context).

Think of a pond with many life forms in it and the impact of removing one of them (etc). Small actions can have large consequences that it could take a super computer years to calculate.

Hence we have the word faith. May not understand why things happen as they do, but you have faith that the person involved knows what they are doing and you trust them even if you think to yourself 'I would do it a different way' - because you know that you only know a tiny fraction of what that other person knows.

[Moonwalk]

36. So you have faith in god knowing what he's doing? That's fine, but then why....

...do you or I or anyone else need to do anything? Why do we need to pray to god to help us if god knows what he's doing and gave us this disease for a reason and will cure us for a reason? Why do we go to church and do rituals, praising god if all god is doing is what he must or can or has to do?

We don't pray to the planet for moving around the sun as gravity requires. We don't praise continental drift for moving tectonic plates around as forces require. If god has a reason for all this stuff--for making demons, for letting them take over innocent people, for requiring priests do exorcism, etc., and you believe this with all your heart and faith, then that's that. Isn't it? There is no reason do to anything but live our lives. Nothing we do changes what god does because god must move in whatever way he must move. Allow earthquakes to destroy cities, allow the rise of dictators, allow the massacre of innocents--with only our earthly decisions, in some cases, changing that, but certainly not our prayers; nor or belief or lack of belief in the divine. What effect have our prayers or faith or belief or lack of belief if, as you argue, god ALWAYS knows what he's doing and why--or at least, must do what he must do because the natural forces of his existence require such things?

Just sayin'. If that's what you think, that's fine, but it does open up a whole other can of worms.

[The Straight Story]

37. Reasons are more of a macro than a micro

Overall reasons don't always filter down to the micro level.

It is like a game I play, Wizards 101. I have a garden at my house there and I check in on it from time to time. It shows if plants have needs and I water them, add magic, etc and so on.

I planned where to put it, how close they were, the house I put them in (I have several) and so on. The game has a 'free will' component if you will. Things randomly happen that need my attention. Some plants I let die or dig up for a variety of reasons.

Think of it all as a computer program and you are the programmer. You design it, run it, understand it, but the AI inside each 'creature' is limited in how much it knows.

It can seek out how it was created and find that it is nothing but electricity. Part of a system mined, manufactured, etc. May even see itself as evolving.

The programmer is god like, but a change here could affect something over there. Sometimes it doesn't. As the population grows more and more things may need tending too. You may have a virus, but getting rid of it could take time or you could just scrap the program and start over.

What seems like a thousand years to things in the program would only be a day to the coder. He may know all, but variables across his entire created universe can make it complex and instead of rushing to a decision often he/she takes time to evaluate it.

We tend to think of god as being able to do more because we define the term god by our own limited means most the time.

[Angry Dragon]

38. Interesting

You state we are unable to know god but you have no problem knowing that Satan has changed......

[The Straight Story]

40. Just going by what I heard. I don't "know" anything

But if it is anything like programming and nature in general one could guess that there have been changes over time and will continue to be.

I don't always see 'satan' as a person but a conceptual element reworked to manifest into something humans could better able understand.

Much like the book of Ezekiel and it's descriptive language where someone tries to use a limited vocabulary to describe something they have never before seen.

I don't take the bible in a literal sense, but more of humans grappling with things. There is much between the lines.

If folks back then could not grasp what we do today perhaps we cannot grasp some things as well, but we will keep trying to.

Which is why I keep an open mind.

[eqfan592]

41. I have an honest question for you.

Do you believe god is omnipotent? And if so, how does that jive with the idea that satan somehow changed into something god did not intend? Or that humans have done anything god hadn't already known they would do when he created them?

[The Straight Story]

47. My take on it all

Omnipotent is a human based word that we created to deal with something that had more power than we do.

Being "all powerful" is a somewhat relative term. We are compared to something like an ant - and yet there are things we don't fully control.

We continue to define god by our terms without always putting ourselves into his/her position (and we also use gender terms).

As noted elsewhere, God cannot lie. Why? Why we he let us know such a thing? If he is all powerful he should be able to.

He is 'the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow' - why can't he change?

There are limitations. Those limitations, if we try to understand them in context better, help to understand more of the why's.

As far as predicting the future, or seeing it, not really that hard when you are the programmer. You can guess how they will react over time and warn them ahead of time without being specific (as we can now - see things like 1984, etc).

Would write more but in a battle on wizards 101

[eqfan592]

48. I appreciate your response to my question.

I won't say I'm convinced by the points you make, but I do appreciate the response. I invite you to write more if you wish. I would do so myself here, but I have studying to take care of tonight yet and I've procrastinated long enough!

Good luck in your battle!

[Green_Lantern]

27. why? Evil has no power but the power we allow it to have...

So why would destroying it be a requirement of love?

[Angry Dragon]

39. Everyone has the right to determine the kind of love they need

[Green_Lantern]

25. You've been watching too many movies

Exorcism rarely involves casting out demons.

"When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism."

It is typically just asking Christ to protect someone from evil influence.

[FarCenter]

28. The Catholic Curch also believes in miracles, and other Medieval hangovers

IIRC, two miracles are required as part of the canonization of a saint.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. Because only psychotic people believe demons can possess people.

Or so I have been told.

[trotsky]

52. So the entire Catholic Church hierarchy is psychotic?

Interesting theory... hmm...

[Warren Stupidity]

53. That is one conclusion.

Until we have some clear statement from the theists regarding which religious experiences are legitimate and which are merely psychotic delusions, to be prudent we should assume that all such experiences are psychotic delusions.

So what is one to make of an institution that codifies rules for engaging in delusional behavior?

[trotsky]

54. Naturally, the answer is...

DEFEND IT TO YOUR DYING BREATH!

[Green_Lantern]

59. die hard atheists believe all acts of faith are delusional...

It is an insult, not an objective analysis.

The major difference between faith and delusion is that a belief can't be a delusion unless it can be proven false.

[rug]

56. Really? How interesting.

Post the link or post the source.

[onager]

57. A real exorcism - Anneliese Michel

Google that name for hours of fascinating reading. You can also hear the harrowing actual tapes of Michel's exorcism online.

Michel was a 23-year-old German woman who died in 1973 after two priests performed the Official Catholic Exorcism Ritual on her, no less than 67 times.

When she finally died from starvation/dehydration, she weighed about 69 pounds.

Michel and her parents were very conservative Catholics who hated the Vatican II reforms. When Michel started having epileptic seizures at age 16, they became convinced she was possessed by demons.

Medical treatment apparently helped for a while, but Michel finally quit taking any medication and insisted on exorcism.

The priests and her parents were prosecuted in Germany and got off with a slap on the wrist (suspended sentences).

Today Michel is considered something of a martyr to Vatican modernism and her grave is a pilgrimage site for anti-modernist Catholics.

The German Catholic Church tightened up its rules on performing exorcisms, but fans of the Old-Time Religion can still get exorcized in other, more tolerant Euro countries.

Two movies loosely based on Michel's case have been made. The Exorcism of Emily Rose (2005) takes the "demons are real" approach. The German movie Requiem (2006) leaves that question open but is still a mostly sympathetic view of the exorcism. I'm basing that on reviews, I have not seen either and don't really care to.