The Ten Commandments: open for comment.

[JDDavis]

The 10 Commandments List, Short Form
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.

http://lifehopeandtruth.com/bible/10-commandments/the-ten-commandments/10-commandments-list/

Aside from the reason why anyone would obey her/his creator, why would it be necessary to "COMMAND" people to obey the CREATOR's creation?

Aside from the fact that at least 7 of the 10 commandments have nothing to do with taking care of each other on this, (among 100,000, 000, 000 one hundred billion planets), somehow this one god delivered this to us, his chosen people, much hundreds of years before Jesus Christ.

This is offensive to most Chistians, and some Jewish folks and some Muslims. Just get that straight:

Does science ever play a part in The Ten Commandments?


Discuss among yourselves.

1 Why do we need 10 when seveal are re-statements of each other?

2. What is the nature of a "commandment" when a god can intercede and fix it, or make it word, depending upon the beliefs and mind of the believer?

3. If a god gave us this universe, why did he/she need to tell us what to do with it that we could not figure out for ourselves?


In summary, and for refresher course:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

[hrmjustin]

1. They were rules for the people of their time and they speak to their values.

These values live through to today in some form or another.

[AtheistCrusader]

12. No they weren't.

The people (allegedly) of (alleged) moses, had rules already, or they would never have made it to (allegedly) Mt. Sinai (unknown location) to (allegedly) receive these (alleged) rules as a group.

Thou Shalt not (do no) murder.

If they didn't know it was wrong to kill each other, how did they survive?
Assuming the biblical character of Moses, and his people ever lived at all, they already knew not to murder or they don't make it as a group to the mountain in the first damn place.

[Stargleamer]

58. They speak to MALE patriarchal values. . .

or else "Thou shall not rape" and "Thou Shall Not Abuse" and "Thou shall not enslave" would definitely have been in there.

Then again, men made god in his own image so it's only natural these commandments came out the way they did, and god became such a tyrant.

[Dont call me Shirley]

2. Here's a good explanation...

http://m.

[leftofcool]

3. Most of these are just universal laws.

Don't kill, don't steal, honoring your parents etc... The God part is simple. If God is nature (I believe this is so) and nature provides for us, shouldn't we respect nature by having nature be above us in all things? God does not intercede or fix anything. We have all the tools we need to fix things for ourselves, thus "nature."

[Warren Stupidity]

9. The first 4 are bullshit. The rest are common sense.

Although "covet"? Really? You can covet your neighbors ass all you want, just don't steal it, see "You shall not steal".

[Lordquinton]

16. Let's talk about "Thal shall not covet"

Basically saying don't yearn for things that you don't have, or don't belong to you. Seems fine to us.

However to a homeless person that's a huge insult, saying "Don't covet people's houses, that's going to send you to hell" so the only option is to abandon the desire for a house and live forever in the streets because that's what god commands.

Same for the poor and hungry. Same for the sick and infirm.

And the honoring your parents, well, if they're abusive parents (like a certain Christian mother and father whose abuse led to their daughter's death recently) then it's most certainly a bad commandment.

So we've got don't steal and don't kill, kinda crappy for an allegedly all seeing, all knowing being.

[YarnAddict]

18. Um, no

It is not wrong for a homeless person to desire a home, but it is very wrong for a homeless person to desire someone else's home.

Wanting something of your own can inspire you to strive to achieve it, wanting someone else's property can lead you to steal it.

That's the difference.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. The alleged difference is covered by "don't take other people's shit". nt.

[AtheistCrusader]

13. Not all parents are worthy of honor.

I'd introduce you to my dad, but the drink and smokes did his wife-beating, manipulative, vile ass in, some years back.

[Warren Stupidity]

28. Thou shalt honor thy parents to the extent that they merit honor, as with all other people.

Yes that one is bullshitty too. Forking a sprog does not confer honor upon anyone. Raising that sprog to be a good person merits honor. Completely fucking up the raising the sprog part, or just doing a half assed job of it does merit anything.

[Humanist_Activist]

54. This is the poison of religion, regardless of source, why should anything be above humanity?

Nothing is more important than the well being and freedom of our family and friends and, by extension, humanity at large, including ourselves. Some other concerns may be equal in our minds, but I can't think of any that exceed it.

[okasha]

68. How about the welfare of the planet as a whole?

You've just endorsed the fundamentalist position that humans have "dominion" over the earth and everyone/everything on it.

[edhopper]

69. Unless you consider

the welfare of the planet intertwined with the welfare of humanity.

And you ignored the part where he said equal.

So that's a no, it's not.

[okasha]

73. No, I didn't miss it.

[edhopper]

76. Oh

just wanted to make a foolish post? I see.

please proceed.

[okasha]

83. The two of you are terribly defensive.

Can't you handle a challenge to your buried assumptions?

[edhopper]

84. I think

the response was appropriate to what you call a challenge.

[Humanist_Activist]

71. Go away okasha, you are arguing with a strawman you constructed in your mind...

you have nothing to contribute to this conversation.

[okasha]

75. No, thank you.

[Humanist_Activist]

82. So are you going to argue against the content of the post and not the strawman you constructed? n/t

[okasha]

86. I asked a reasonable question.

You had a tantrum. That's all the answer I need.

[Humanist_Activist]

88. You question didn't even make sense, as is typical of your posts, you prefer to be obtuse than clear

[LostOne4Ever]

4. Wrong ten commandments!

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]These were the ones written on the stone tablets![/font]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2034&version=NRSVCE

1. [font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it will become a snare among you. You shall tear down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles[c] (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God). [/font]



2. [font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]You shall not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, and you will eat of the sacrifice. And you will take wives from among their daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute themselves to their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their gods.[/font]



3. [font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]You shall not make cast idols.[/font]



4. [font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt.[/font]



5. [font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male[d] livestock, the firstborn of cow and sheep. The firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem.
   
   No one shall appear before me empty-handed.[/font]



6. [font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even in plowing time and in harvest time you shall rest.[/font]



7. [font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year. Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out nations before you, and enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.[/font]



8. [font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and the sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the morning.[/font]



9. [font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God.[/font]



10. [font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk.[/font]

[Cartoonist]

5. NRSVCE

New Revised Standard Version Bible: Catholic Edition, copyright © 1989, 1993 the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
-
Jesus Krist! How many different versions are there?

[LostOne4Ever]

7. Way too many

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal] Being a former Catholic, I try and use a catholic version.

In my house we have the New American Version, but a while back I did some research on the differing catholic bibles and read a glowing review of the NRSV:CE that convinced me to make that my go to bible for quoting/linking.[/font]

[Warren Stupidity]

10. Well I was told in no uncertain terms here that there is only one version.

[Cartoonist]

11. Yeah, whichever one they're holding in their hand. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

14. So they can beat you about the head and neck with it.

[bvf]

92. The large-type editions really smart, I'm told. n/t.

[bvf]

93. Really?

So only one is the true, inspired word of god? I missed that.

Which one?

[Warren Stupidity]

98. The right one of course.

[longship]

8. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.

That is my favorite of the more than one Decalogue stories commandments.

Because everybody knows that there are many doublets in the Pentatueuch. And indeed, the Hebrew Bibke.

[mr blur]

19. I have NEVER boiled a kid in its mother’s milk

Does that mean I go to Heaven or to Hell with you miscreants?

[Warren Stupidity]

29. The BAD ASHTEISTS coven is considering expanding the menu from roasted babies.

So you might be in for a treat.

[mr blur]

61. It'll never catch on with Fundamentalist Atheists

Not enough shock value

[Cartoonist]

6. The First Three

The God of the Old Testament is an egomaniac. It's all about HIM. He can kiss my ass.

[cbayer]

22. If there is a god, I'm putting money on it not kissing your ass.

I would also suggest that telling god to kiss your ass might be the definition of an egomaniacal statement, but that's just me.

[bvf]

94. I might abandon atheism in favor

of a religion in which kissing believers' asses is the chief function of the deity in question.

Might make for some interesting sacraments.

[rug]

15. These "discussions" invariably lead to the most violated Commandment:

[hrmjustin]

17. I love that commandment but I confess that I fall short too often.

[cbayer]

23. Or this one. I think it's from the old, old testament.

[cbayer]

21. This is offensive to most Christians, and some Jewish folks and some Muslims!

Yes, I would agree that this OP, written by someone with no religious beliefs, is probably offensive to most Christians, and some Jewish folks and some Muslims.

What part do you think science should play in the ten commandments. Be specific.

1. I would suggest that you probably don't need any of them, and if you find them redundant, feel free to whittle them down to a few that you might need.

2. Since you don't believe in a god at all, let alone a god that intercedes, it seems rather remarkable that you would suggest what that god could or could not do.

3. Again, you don't believe in a god at all, so your speculation about why this god you don't believe in might want to send an instruction manual is also pretty silly.

Was this prompted by reading the wiki article on the ten commandments or was there some kind of revelation involved?

[edhopper]

24. Why is it offensive

can't we ask if God is really commanding these things?

Where did they come from?

Do we actually think they came from a man carving them at God's command in stone on a mountain while his people were fleeing Egypt, because that is problematic?

Are they adapted from other cultures, like the codes of Hammurabi? Then how are they "given by God"

Seems the whole area is ripe for discussion. And yes, even dismissal, no idols, really? What does that even mean?

[cbayer]

25. You can ask anything you want.

Not only do I think the original post is offensive, I think it is intended to offend.

As I hope you know, I could not care less about these questions you are asking, but I detest threads that are started for the sole purpose of mocking other's beliefs.

Feel free to engage in a highbrow discussion of these very erudite questions.

[edhopper]

27. I understand you don't like the tone of the OP

but I think the background of the core beliefs of any religion are definitely worth discussion.

Are these divine laws, or only man written codes of the time period.

Considering how many people in this country are trying to make the ten commandments the cornerstone of our laws, this is an important debate.

And the crux of it is the proponents beliefs.

[cbayer]

30. I think they should be open for discussion by those who are sincerely interested in discussing them.

I reject the notion that this is the intent of this OP and was responding to that.

In terms of the issue of those trying to make the ten commandments the cornerstone of our laws, the substantive argument against that is the 1st amendment. Challenging the commandments themselves will accomplish exactly nothing.

[edhopper]

32. I don't think that is true

I think their are many people, nonfundies, who still think the commandments are sacrosanct.

And since a large majority of the public see nothing wrong with putting them up in Government buildings, it can accomplish quite a bit. Like keeping this a secular country.

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2005/06/ten-commandments.pdf

So I have to disagree with your pretense that making people see them differently is worthless.

[cbayer]

33. It doesn't matter how many people support it, it is a first amendment violation and

should be approached as such.

If you really think it's going to be more effective to try and talk people out of embracing them, go for it. However, I really think this is an issue for the courts, not evangelizers.

You think a lot of people want that up in public buildings? That number will pale in comparison to the number who value them in general and have absolutely no interest in some non-believers argument on why they should be changed…. or something.

Tilting at windmills makes a good story, but it is generally not very effective.

[edhopper]

36. People

have a lot of trouble with 1st amendment rulings.

I think asking people to rethink where the commandments come from and what they truly mean will help in the fight.

[cbayer]

37. I think it's a complete waste of time and similar to evangelical proselytizing, but

go for it if it makes you feel good.

[edhopper]

38. Well

having people rethink their religious beliefs about Gay people has helped in that fight. Was that a waste of time as well?

Having people reject the literacy of the Bible to accept evolution has helped that fight as well. A waste of time?

[cbayer]

39. True that, but trying to talk them out of the ten commandments is quite a different thing.

I could see value in discussion about modern interpretation, but not the source or whether they actually came from god. That is what I think is a waste of time.

Do you see anything in the commandments that you think impact negatively on social or political issues?

[edhopper]

40. The first four

should have no place in our civic interaction.

I think even moving from "directly from God" to "God inspired" would be of benefit.

I have had these discussion with people who say, it's a good basis for our laws. A talk about their origins and why the craven image thing is part of them does lead to positive rethinking.

Also coveting is the cornerstone of our economy.

[cbayer]

41. Hold on a minute. We have no disagreement about keeping religion out of government.

You really have a case to make there, but zero case when it comes saying that they need changing to better suit your sensibilities.

You are mixing apples and oranges. Arguing with people about this not being the basis for laws is a righteous cause, but thinking your are leading them to "positive rethinking" smacks of proselytizing. Are you trying to save them?

I don't think you have offered anything at all that would suggest that the ten commandments when embraced by individuals has a negative societal or political impact.

To be honest, some of them are pretty good guidelines for individuals, even if you don't believe in a god.

In New Orleans, some of the local churches bought billboard space and put put the simple message "Thou shalt not kill". It elicited a rather profound and positive response from the community.

[edhopper]

42. I thought we were talking about

them being the basis for anything in government. Like blue laws or displaying them in bldgs.

I wouldn't change them, because they are meaningless to me. But having people think about them differently is a good thing.

Yes, not thinking a guy who didn't exists writing them on a tablet as opposed to a code of law embraced over hundreds of years from various sources is postive thinking.

Embracing ignorance is not. Just my POV.

[cbayer]

43. As we previously discussed, those are first amendment issues

and should be pursued as such.

Having people think about them differently is not necessarily a good thing, you know. It could result in driving them into an extreme corner. The bottom line is that they are meaningless to you, like you said, and you don't have the answer or know the truth. You seem so intent on converting others.

This POV that deems those that see things differently than you as embracing ignorance is really bothersome. Your thinking does not equal positive thinking, except for you.

[edhopper]

47. People who take passages of the Bible literally

counter to the evidence embrace ignorance.

You believe that too, we just differ on what parts of the Bible.

Or do you think creationist have valid answers as much as you do?

I am sorry if I don't claim to have no answers and know no facts and that everyone's belief is as valid is my understanding.

There are people who are ignorant of reality.

There are still flat earthers and geocentrists and people who believe in a lot of improbable and nonsensical things.

[cbayer]

48. Yes, but how does that apply to the 10 commandments?

My question to you was this - what about the ten commandments do you think has social or political impacts that are negative? Be specific.

They have nothing to do with creationism or taking bible passages literally when there is evidence to the contrary.

Your beliefs about things for which there is no evidence are no more valid than anyone else's. You have not found the righteous path or the one way.

If you want to talk about people who hold onto beliefs in the face of counter evidence, that is a completely different thing. But I fail to see how that pertains to this discussion.

[edhopper]

50. Blue laws

Belief that Moses wrote the tablets as he left Egypt is a belief counter to the evidence.

[cbayer]

52. I've got an idea! Let's start re-education camps!

Are you in?

[edhopper]

59. Really?

challenging believers in a public debate is the same as re-educaton camps?

that post is beneath you and not worthy of reply.

[cbayer]

62. Not worthy of reply? Yet you did.

It was snark.

I get my hackles up when you start talking about getting people to come around to the right way of thinking (yours) and comparing religious belief to flat-earthers and geocentrists.

It's not about challenging anyone in a public debate, it's about thinking your way is the one way.

[Warren Stupidity]

85. Well hows about being attacked for violating the sabbath?

Yeah that would never happen.

In the past month, Jerusalem residents reported violent assaults by haredim while traveling on HaNevi'im Street on Shabbat. Saturday's protest also drew some seculars, who arrived at the site to protest against what they characterized as "haredi thuggery."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4096097,00.html

[edhopper]

44. Um?

I don't think you have offered anything at all that would suggest that the ten commandments when embraced by individuals has a negative societal or political impact.

Hobby Lobby doesn't bother you?

See what Alito and Scalia said.

[cbayer]

46. What does Hobby Lobby have to do with the ten commandments?

I did a search and came up with nada. You are going to have to be less cryptic.

Hobby Lobby bothers me a great deal, but I don't see the connection at all, unless we are again talking about 1st amendment issues.

[edhopper]

49. I see it as all connected

to using religious beliefs as the basis for law.

I disagree with you that discussions with believers is fruitless, I have personal experience that it is not.

You know we have different views of beliefs, and none of your arguments have made me rethink it.

i have read them and thought about them, but I find them unpersuasive.

[cbayer]

51. Of course you see it as all connected and that is a big part of the

issue I have with you.

My sense is that you would like to disabuse everyone of their religious beliefs because there are some things that you think are harmful.

How do you feel when someone tries to convert you to their religion? I personally hate it. I suspect most believers feel the same way when someone tries to deconvert them.

That you have never found any of my arguments something that might cause you to rethink your position or persuasive might say something about the rigidity of your position as opposed to the validity of my arguement.

[edhopper]

60. Or it might say something about

the strength of your arguments. That you think your arguments should be persuasive and that you don't see my view of beliefs says something about the rigidity of your position. works both ways.

I discuss these things in venues with willing participants, I do not accost people and "try to convert" them.

If people don't wish to be engaged , then they don't have to.

Anyway I must be off, I'll give you the last word and read it later.

Have a good weekend.

[Warren Stupidity]

34. So you are now Speaker for Most Christians, Some Jews and Some Muslims?

Odd as you are not, or so you allege, of the Abrahamic faiths, you are in fact not a believer at all, at least according to you, and yet you take it upon yourself to provide The Great Upset in this discussion, on behalf of the people of the Abrahamic faiths, who it seems cannot speak for themselves.

By the way aren't you frequently bashing people here for daring to speak for some group or other?

[Heddi]

45. She has yet to note HOW it's offensive to most, some,and some.

Apparently, mentioning things is offensive. Questions are offensive. Doubt is offensive.

[Feral Child]

31. We'll never know

what the commandments were.

(Forgive my momentary foray into fantasy land, but "let's pretend" for a moment there really was a guy named "Moses" that led His People out of Egypt, the land of Pharoah where the Jews never were, as slaves or anything else.)

We can't know because Moses cared so little about the tablets that "Yahweh" gave him he threw them down in an adolescent temper tantrum and destroyed his "gift" from "Yahweh" because the Jews were breaking laws they hadn't been given yet.

As manic as this Yahweh cat seems to be, I'd think He would have smote the shit out of Moses for fucking up his shit.

Not only is the Bible fiction, it's badly written, thematically flawed fiction.

Moses got pissed off because the Folks were violating the laws that he had not given them yet? Seriously, how whacked is that?

If followers of the Abrahamic faiths want to be that uncritical, OK, but don't try to hang that trash up in our courthouses.

[Warren Stupidity]

35. Didn't Moishe go back and get a xerox after smashing the originals?

[Feral Child]

99. Yahweh needs a remedial writing course.

Just changing his "brand" isn't enough, He needs to scrap all that crap and start fresh. The ambiguity is confusing His Faithful!

[Ink Man]

53. I like this course.

[edhopper]

87. OMG

I started at the end and worked backward.
I thought you were posting these satirically. And was responding in kind.
You are serious.

I watched them for a laugh, sorry, the guys a tool.

[Ink Man]

55. Lets start with the first.

[Humanist_Activist]

80. Ethical Monotheism, with the old testament God? That's a fucking laugh...

not to mention the fact that the first commandment is more like a statement for henotheism, not monotheism.

[Ink Man]

56. We get to two.

[Ink Man]

57. Got to love #3.

This happens a lot around here.

[Ink Man]

63. Remember.

[edhopper]

70. It doesn't say take a day off

it says take THIS day off.
Let's make sure Firemen, EMS, Police and ER Doctors observe the Sabbath and not work that day.

Guys a tool.

[okasha]

79. Wrong.

Saving lives and protecting others pre-empts this commandment. You should know this, since you say you were raised Jewish.

[edhopper]

81. Where does it say that?

There are always exemptions arrived at later because the commandments don't work as complete fiats.

And I was responding to this guys tortured logic. The Sabbath is about giving a day to God. Not about workaholics.

[okasha]

91. The Talmud.

Saving a life on the Sabbath isn't just permitted; it's mandatory.

The Sabbath law is one of the first, if not the first, regulation that limits the demand of management on labor. It's also an early humane law: working animals also get the day off.

[Ink Man]

64. Good old Mom and Dad.

[edhopper]

72. Good grief

[Ink Man]

65. Shall not kill or murder?

[edhopper]

74. Cite the five books of Moses?

What about citing your pal Jesus.

What a wanker.

[Warren Stupidity]

77. The bible is full of people righteously doing both, plus your alleged deity

Last edited Sat Jan 3, 2015, 09:18 PM - Edit history (2)

is described in your allegedly sacred books as engaging in genocide at least twice, plus sanctioning the slaughter/genocide of assorted non-Jewish tribes on various occasions.

[Ink Man]

66. Hollywood hates this one.

[Ink Man]

67. This one is huge.

[edhopper]

78. And so on???

how is making a idol stealing you moron.

And you can covet something and then buy it. It ain't stealing.

Who is this fool?

[Ink Man]

89. Im happy

you guys are seeing. More to come.

[edhopper]

90. I really can't tell

if am suppose to take this seriously, or watch it ironically.
I am living in Poe's law right now.

[bvf]

95. I think he's serious.

Unless his whole journal is supposed to be performance art.

[edhopper]

96. Its hard to tell with new posters.

Well I guess I let my opinion of Prager's thoughts be known.

[mr blur]

97. I'm rather hoping that it is (nt)

[goldent]

100. There aren't the ten I learned

Combine the first two, and split the last one into two.

And of course, the ten commandments apply in some ways to science - even non-religious would agree (I think) that some of the sentiments of the ten commandments apply to science, including:

- You shall not murder (ethical use of human/animal subjects)

- You shall not steal (research integrity, including citing prior work)

- You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor (research integrity, including publishing false results).