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Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:44 AM

One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other peoples' faith" - Pope Francis 1-15-15

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Reply One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other peoples' faith" - Pope Francis 1-15-15 (Original post)
cleanhippie Jan 2015 OP
edhopper Jan 2015 #1
trotsky Jan 2015 #2
BillZBubb Jan 2015 #3
trotsky Jan 2015 #4
BillZBubb Jan 2015 #7
trotsky Jan 2015 #9
Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #10
cleanhippie Jan 2015 #17
cleanhippie Jan 2015 #5
BillZBubb Jan 2015 #6
cleanhippie Jan 2015 #8
trotsky Jan 2015 #11
BillZBubb Jan 2015 #14
trotsky Jan 2015 #16
BillZBubb Jan 2015 #12
cleanhippie Jan 2015 #15
Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #13
BillZBubb Jan 2015 #18
Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #19
cleanhippie Jan 2015 #20
BillZBubb Jan 2015 #21
trotsky Jan 2015 #22
Leontius Jan 2015 #27
edhopper Jan 2015 #23
Act_of_Reparation Jan 2015 #24
okasha Jan 2015 #28
AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #25
Lordquinton Jan 2015 #29
isobar Jan 2015 #26

Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:55 AM

1. Hey Frank

let me explain the difference between a free democracy and a hierarchical autocratic Church

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:00 AM

2. The more things change... n/t

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:12 AM

3. To be fair to the Pope, this is taken out of context.

If you read his entire comment, it was along the lines of "you cannot insult other people's faith and not expect violent blowback." In that he is entirely correct. History is full of examples. He isn't calling for censorship or endorsing violence. He's just pointing out what can happen and asking for restraint.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:15 AM

4. If he was asking for restraint, he'd use "shouldn't" instead of "cannot."

"Cannot" implies it should be forbidden.

And shouldn't a violent reaction be blamed on the person who reacted violently? To blame the person who offended is obscene.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:24 AM

7. The Pope made it clear that violence was unjustified and wrong.

He didn't blame the person who offended. He merely stated that, with religion in particular, people are very prone to violence if they deem the offence grave enough. It is something everyone should take into account.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:27 AM

9. But "normal" if one is provoked.

Is that what Jesus said?

How about Gandhi?

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:28 AM

10. While stating that violence is to be expected .

 

And yes his allegory about insulting his mom clearly put blame on the insulter.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:33 AM

17. “If my good friend says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch,” Francis said

The Pope made it clear that violence was unjustified and wrong



Uhm yeah.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:15 AM

5. Words are NEVER an excuse for violence.

And like many right here, he is saying that provoking believers leads to violence. One should expect that, so don't provoke them.



Fuck. That. Noise.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:21 AM

6. History proves him right and you wrong.

Your logic is flawed. Provoking doesn't justify violence. But, in the real world, provoking many times does lead to violence. So, yes if you provoke people too much, you should realize that violence is possible. You'd be a fool not to.

The Pope is simply asking people to be realistic and weigh the pros and cons of what they are doing.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:25 AM

8. Words are NEVER an excuse for violence.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:29 AM

11. It's astonishing what one sees on this site sometimes.

Instead of focusing on the abuser who uses violence and correct their behavior, some think we have to take the victim to task and correct THEIR behavior. Wow, just wow.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:30 AM

14. Bullshit. That's not what the Pope did at all.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:32 AM

16. It's what you are doing. n/t

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:29 AM

12. The Pope condemned violence. But of course you didn't care to read what he said.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #12)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:31 AM

15. "If my good friend says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch,” Francis said

Words are NEVER an excuse for violence.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:30 AM

13. The pope's words: “One cannot provoke; one cannot insult other people’s faith".

 

That is not "asking" that is stating what one can not do. It couldn't be more clear.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:33 AM

18. Again, out of context.

One cannot insult other people's faith and disregard the possibility of a violent reaction.

That's what he was saying if you read his entire statement. He condemned violence, but said the reality is that people will react that way if pushed too far. They always have, and always will.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #18)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:46 AM

19. That's even worse.

 

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #18)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:43 PM

20. "One cannot insult other people's faith and disregard the possibility of a violent reaction."

Why not? Why should we allow violence as an allowable reaction?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #20)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 01:35 PM

21. Again flawed logic.

Recognizing that violence has and will occur in no way condones the violence. It is a statement of reality. You'd be a fool to insult someone and not at least understand there may be a violent response, particularly if it their religion.

That doesn't mean we accept it as allowable. It shouldn't happen, but it does. Just like bank robberies shouldn't happen, but they do. Banks realize this, so they have safes and other security.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 01:38 PM

22. Why should we accept it as normal that insulting someone's religion might get you killed?

Is that just an inherent feature of religion?

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 08:11 PM

27. The hive can't understand. You're wasting your time.

 

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 01:43 PM

23. Yes

self edit yourselves. Curtail your free speech to the judgement of the most violent and crazy.
We should understand that if you offend someone, expect to be attacked, especially if it's about faith.

They had it coming, n'est-ce pas?

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 02:17 PM

24. What a load of codswallop.

If he said, "Women cannot wear skimpy clothing and not expect unwanted sexual advances from men", we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. He'd be fucking pilloried, and rightfully so.

The only thing we should expect from our neighbors is that they obey the fucking law. It's illegal to throw the first punch. Period. Even if something bad was said about your mother.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 08:19 PM

28. It's illegal, most of the time, in the United States.

Once you cross the southern border of los Estados Unidos del Norte, though, you're in a different culture with different laws.

Period.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 02:20 PM

25. I expect to be able to say whatever the fuck I want.

If someone escalates that to physical violence, it's on them, not me. Sorry.

In a civilized society, people are free to speak, and you have recourse if you don't like it; your own voice. That's the limits of your justifiable response.

He called physical violence in the face of insult, "normal". Fuck him, and anyone else that normalizes violence. He doesn't know shit about shit, let alone revealed truth about the universe and our place in it.

Fuck. Him.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:06 PM

29. so the pope was threatening everyone?

If we insult his religion, he will retaliate? He even demonstrated that, in spite of his words against violence he said he would result to it in the right circumstances.

This pope just threatened the world to not insult his relifion or expect violent retaliation.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 02:22 PM

26. Well, if some pope says so, then I guess I will have to comply.

 

NOT !!!

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