Religion
Related: About this forum"It's time to Thump the Bible Thumpers with the Bible"
According to actor and Sirius XM radio host John Fugelsang, its time to thump the Bible thumpers with the Bible over Indianas new Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which he says is un-Christian.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)effort. The Bible is full of contradictions and anyone who tries to out thump a Bible thumper, who has actually read the Bible, will wade through a quagmire.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)I don't see it as a waste of time at all.
This hits them where it hurts.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)If you are going to try and defeat their Biblically based argument with arguments from the Bible, you are not going to win. Each side has to ignore parts of the Bible to use that text to support their argument.
How about we actually tell them that this is a secular country and you can believe whatever you want but you SHOULD NOT bring your religion into the government so that you can place YOUR interpretation of the Bible onto those that don't believe. You think gay marriage is evil, then don't get married to someone gay. Etc. Etc. Etc.
If religion gets no privilege in this society, then these laws don't happen.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)The religious right has co-opted what it means to be a christian. Their interpretations are not the only ones and they need to be countered.
stone space
(6,498 posts)...and make our definitions for us. They are very good at this.
We become adjusted to thinking in their terms, and allowing their concepts to colonize our minds, and we risk losing alternative viewpoints more compatible with our own values.
Dr. Martin Luther King's speech at Western Michigan University (Dec 18th, 1963). Transcript at http://www.wmich.edu/sites/default/fi..., starting at p. 17 ff., second to last section.
More on Dr. King at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_L....
"The Lost Tape
The tape recording of the live broadcast of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s December 18, 1963 speech was lost for almost 30 years. The tape was rebroadcast at the time of Dr. King's assassination in 1968 but was later lost until 1997 when Phill Novess contacted WMUK general manager, Garrard Macleod.
A copy of King's address had been found on a reel ‐ to ‐ reel machine that Novess had acquired from his grandfather, Phillip Novess. The senior Novess owned a small grocery store on the east side of Kalamazoo and accepted the reel ‐ to ‐ reel tape recorder as collateral for groceries in the early 1970s.
When he sold the grocery store and the tape player had not been reclaimed, Novess took it home and put it in his basement. He gave the tape to his grandson for restoration purposes. Novess' business, Eclipse Media Group, specializes in noise reduction and restoration of audio tapes.
Novess restored the tape with the assistance of Kevin Brown, of Brown & Brown Recording & Music Productions in Portage."
(Source: http://www.wmich.edu/sites/default/fi...)
Martin Luther King (1963) - Proud to be Maladjusted!
by grtv
Martin Luther King talks about "maladjustment" (1967). Proud to be maladjusted, King's speech is timeless, and especially relevant to our present society:
'Modern psychology has a word maladjusted. Certainly, we all want to avoid the maladjusted life. In order to have real adjustment within our personalities, we all want the well-adjusted life in order to avoid neurosis, schizophrenic personalities.
But I say to you, my friends, as I move to my conclusion, there are certain things in our nation and in the world which I am proud to be maladjusted and which I hope all men of good-will will be maladjusted until the good societies realize. I say very honestly that I never intend to become adjusted to segregation and discrimination.
I never intend to become adjusted to religious bigotry.
I never intend to adjust myself to economic conditions that will take necessities from the many to give luxuries to the few.
I never intend to adjust myself to the madness of militarism, to self-defeating effects of physical violence. But in a day when sputniks and explorers are dashing through outer space and guided ballistic missiles are carving highways of death through the stratosphere, no nation can win a war. It is no longer the choice between violence and nonviolence. It is either nonviolence or nonexistence, and the alternative to disarmament. The alternative to absolute suspension of nuclear tests. The alternative to strengthening the United Nations and thereby disarming the whole world may well be a civilization plunged into the abyss of annihilation. This is why I welcome the recent test-ban treaty.
In other words, Im about convinced now that there is need for a new organization in our world. The International Association for the Advancement of Creative Maladjustmentmen and women who will be as maladjusted as the prophet Amos. Who in the midst of the injustices of his day could cry out in words that echo across the centuries, Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)have fully adopted the idea that the bible condemns homosexuality in no uncertain terms.
There is lots of debate and disagreement about that among religious scholars of all stripes.
But the fact that some on our side have adopted the RW interpretation and accepted that is indeed what the bible says is very important to note.
It is imperative to push back and not acquiesce to their definitions.
http://notalllikethat.org/taking-god-at-his-word-the-bible-and-homosexuality/
stone space
(6,498 posts)We have our own traditions and values, and we need to be promoting those, instead.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)1) The religious right has done a very good job of pushing through their message
2) The religious left has done little to nothing to counter it
3) As there are some who see all religion has bad, adopting the RW interpretations are helpful in making the case. To see that other interpretations are possible might mean conceding that there might be some good in religion.
I'm not sure that is intentionally enabling, but that is the result.
pinto
(106,886 posts)"Freedom" is the emotional sales tag. We're all for freedom, aren't we?
The reality is another issue.
stone space
(6,498 posts)We keep letting them get away with it.
pinto
(106,886 posts)She made an articulate case that, in her view, Islamic extremism needs a reformation fostered and implemented by Muslims themselves. To be viable and lasting, she said, change needs to come from within. It's a good if brief interview.
A good point. I think it holds true in re: Christian extremism. Outside pressure and public challenges are equally important in my view but I got her point.
I didn't know much about her before Fareed's interview, but have followed up some. Born in Somalia, raised in the Muslim faith, active and controversial in Dutch politics, now an American citizen. A fellow at Harvard's Kennedy Government School and a former fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. Included on Time's 2005 list of the 100 most influential people in the world. A varied and interesting history.
She left Islam in 2002 and now self identifies as an atheist, advocate for women's rights and opponent of Islam's views on homosexuality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I don't know a lot about her, but have seen some pretty outrageous statements on her part. From what I have seen, I think she does more harm than good.
YMMV.
pinto
(106,886 posts)I've no clue to what it may mean to be a young female in Mogadishu, that probably plays a part in her perspective. And the interview was related to the release of her latest book, so there's that. Fareed's pretty astute, imo. Maybe he kept it short to keep it simple and to the point of change within Islam. (It's a recurring theme in some of his pieces.)
I do think she had a valid point about that possibility for change among Muslims themselves, though.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)but I'm not really liking that place.
Agree that there is a valid point about change from within, but she would like to see Islam disappear from the face of the earth, so I'm not sure what kind of change she is looking for.
pinto
(106,886 posts)There's a middle path, as we've all discussed here at times, where collaboration can be positive and productive.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)She has made a case for converting muslims to christianity. That's how much she abhors islam.