China's atheist Communist government is embracing a very capitalist form of Buddhism

[rug]

Despite history and recent headlines, China is undergoing a spiritual revival. China now has the largest population of Buddhists in the world — by some estimates more than 200 million. That's in part because of a collaborative relationship between Chinese Buddhism and the Communist Party.Credit: Ellen Rolfes

PRI's The World
May 14, 2015 · 2:00 PM EDT
Updated: May 15, 2015 · 3:00 PM EDT
By Ruth Morris

In a small apartment on a busy Shanghai street, 31-year-old Ana copies Buddhist religious texts into a notebook.

“I think it helps me to understand it, and also it creates good karma,” she says with a laugh.

Ana is not this woman's real name and her study of religion is something she typically keeps pretty private. Ana belongs to a new crop of Chinese citizens — well-educated, often city dwellers — who are helping to revive Buddhism under the rule of China’s Communist Party, which is officially atheist.

Ana grew up with a grandfather who was staunchly anti-religion. He told her that religion was the tool of emperors, used to manipulate the masses.

http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-05-14/chinas-atheist-communist-government-embracing-very-capitalist-form-buddhism

5:28 audio at link.

[cbayer]

1. I do not believe that you can deprive people of religion and get away with it for very long.

Those that fervently long for the day when there is no more religion are living a pipe dream and engaging in magical thinking.

There has been religion since recorded humans and there will be religion until all humans are gone.

Not surprising that the chinese government sees some value in the philanthropy provided by religious groups, but some of the commercialism described here seems a bit much (monks to bless your car?).

[Trajan]

2. Cool

Explain how wanting the end of superstition is 'magical' ... The desire for the end of superstitious belief is no more magical than the desire for a good cup of coffee ...

You create these false associations for a reason ...

[cbayer]

4. What reason for creating these associations would I have, Trajan?

If you think you have some understanding of my motivations for expressing what I believe to be true, please share them.

The magical thinking is not about wanting the end of religion, it is about the erroneous belief that it will actually end because of an imagined negative correlation between religion and rationality or reason. It's about believing that religion will come to an end simply because you wish for that to happen and not because of anything based on reason or actual observation.

The desire for it to end is not magical at all and very similar to the desire for the world to be rid of conservatives. Desire will never make it happen.

Superstitious belief will never end, imo, and there is no evidence in recorded history that would make the case that it will end.

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. You said "Those that fervently long for the day ... are ... engaging in magical thinking"

so, yes, you were saying wanting the end of religion is magical thinking.

Perhaps you meant 'wishful thinking', and misspoke?

[cbayer]

7. I see a difference between "fervently longing for" something and merely wanting it.

But your best arguments always seem to rest on parsing words.

There are those who go well past just wanting something. There are those who even insist with some certainty that that is going to happen.

No, I didn't misspeak. I think those that do this engage in the same kind magical thinking that they accuse believers of engaging in. They think that if they clap three times and believe hard enough, religion will disappear. Poof!

[muriel_volestrangler]

8. "But your best arguments always seem to rest on parsing words"

I must admit, your attempt at parsing words - both that there is both a significant difference between "fervently longing for" something and merely wanting it; and that "magical thinking" can mean what you want it to mean, rather than any accepted meaning is not going very well for you.

[cbayer]

9. It's true.

Your argument is generally to pick apart individual words so you can make the case that people said what you wanted to hear instead of what they actually said.

And god forbid that they may have used a word incorrectly. Don't ever give them the opportunity to explain what they meant because that is unlikely to lead to a victory dance, and that is all this is about, right?

Things are going quite well for me, thanks. If you wish to disagree with the substance, go for it, but I'm very familiar with the definition of magical thinking and I stand by it.

Believing that religion is going to go away just because you want it to and say it over and over, despite the lack of any reason or observation to justify this belief, is magical thinking.

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. 'Fervently wanting' religion to go away is not ...

... "believing that religion is going to go away just because you want it to and say it over and over". You started talking about people who fervently desire something, and then you now claim that means they think it will happen because they want it and say it a lot.

You're just making your argument up after people have pulled you up on its incoherence.

OK, if your new argument is "believing that religion is going to go away just because you want it to and say it over and over ...", then it's a strawman. No-one thinks like that.

Are we done, or do you want to invent a 3rd argument? You need some substanvce to your arguments before I can disagree with it.

"I'm very familiar with the definition of magical thinking" - plainly not. It's about mistaking what was the cause of something, whereas, as you are arguing, religion has not gone away. There's no effect yet, so people can't be right or wrong about the cause. And it's 'magical' if there is some form of superstition, supernatural connection or other non-physical link involved.

[cbayer]

11. Still parsing.

Do you truly not understand the point I am making or do you just want to argue about the definition of each individual word.

People have pulled me up on my incoherence? I'm making up my argument? Do I want to invent a 3rd argument? I need some substanvce (sic)?

Your definition of magical thinking is not nearly inclusive enough. The wiki link should help you some if you read it twice.

I'm pretty sure we are done.

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. I don't think you've made a point yet

Pointing out the incoherence of what you've been saying is all I can really do here.

[cbayer]

13. If I haven't made a point yet and am only incoherent, it's because I've learned from the master.

Thanks, muriel!

I think your job is done.

[Trajan]

3. For the record: The nominally 'atheistic' countries. ..

Have many many religious subjects that are simply hiding their beliefs ...

So when we talk about countries doing things, we are actually talking about people doing things ... the people doing those things may or may not be atheist ...

Buddhism never went away in China, just like Russian Orthodoxy never went away ...

[cbayer]

5. Every country and government that I have looked at that has tried to eliminate

or control religion has failed. It can't be done.

As you say, people will hide their beliefs, just as atheists hide their lack of beliefs in countries where atheism is prohibited.