Religious leaders conflicted on Tsarnaev death penalty

[cbayer]

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/05/17/religious-leaders-struggle-with-feelings-over-tsarnaev-death-penalty/EOl9cNhRQrGwBnkhTQAJAI/story.html#

Some say justice, mercy at odds in sentencing


The Rev. Gustave Miracle of St. Angela Merici Parish in Mattapan said Sunday he did not support the death penalty for Tsarnaev.

By Jan Ransom and Jacqueline Tempera GLOBE STAFF AND GLOBE CORRSPONDENT MAY 18, 2015

They are torn.

The congregation at St. Ann Church where the family of Martin Richard attends Mass is struggling with a federal jury’s decision Friday to sentence Marathon bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to death.

“You don’t want to see another life gone, but when you know the family, you’re sad,” said Kathy Costello, 54, a member of the Dorchester church and a teacher at Pope John Paul II Catholic Academy, where Martin went to school.

The video showed he placed the bomb very close to the Richard family, she noted. “We’re torn.”

more at link

[trotsky]

1. Could just make an OP saying "Religious leaders conflicted."

That would cover everything.

[edhopper]

2. There are religious leaders who are pro-death penalty?

Who knew?

[trotsky]

3. Given what I've read here in this group...

I would guess they're probably (secretly) atheists who are just "using" religion to manipulate people to serve their evil sexist homophobic xenophobic atheist agenda.

[cbayer]

4. Per the article, they are the exception, but

The only religious leaders that the article shows in support are a former and current head of Islamic organizations.

I think people's position may change when they are close to victims of violent crime, but the article shows that most religious leaders remain opposed to the death penalty.

[nil desperandum]

5. Well now

most should be in favor of what their god teaches:

Genesis 9:6

Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

But the new testament changed that right? Not really....

Matthew 5:17-18

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one title shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luke 23:40-41
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Actus 25:11
For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Tsarnaev will get his biblical due, instead of by the sword it will be gentle and peaceful by the needle.

He should be hung, that last sudden stop ending his life. There is nothing christian about keeping him alive. He has done evil and should reserve his due reward.

[cbayer]

6. Actually, it seems unlikely that he will be executed.

This is a federal case and I don't think they will do it.

So you are pro-death penalty?

Despite what you have put here, there is strong opposition to the death penalty from most religious groups. Many feel very strongly that there is everything christian about not executing him.

[trotsky]

7. Not exactly, cbayer. Be careful about projecting what you *want* to be true...

versus what really is.

Among clergy of most faiths, support for the death penalty is less than opposition to it.

Among the rank-and-file, there is still very strong support for the death penalty.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php%3Fdid%3D2249

Religious Preference

Individuals who self-identify as Protestants are somewhat more likely to endorse capital punishment than are Catholics and far more likely than those with no religious preference. More than 7 in 10 Protestants (71%) support the death penalty, while 66% of Catholics support it. Fifty-seven percent of those with no religious preference favor the death penalty for murder.

[nil desperandum]

8. Yes

I am pro-death penalty, and oddly enough I believe in things like marriage equality and the first amendment, taking care of our poor and elderly...I believe a defining characteristic of a society is the treatment of its weakest members.

But I have no qualms about executing anti-social criminals who routinely engage in violence.

Unlike those who think it's more humane to imprison them in a cage for all eternity I don't think endangering a prison staff is reasonable either.

Once an individual crosses over into attempting to kill another or actually killing someone during a criminal act there is no rehabilitation for that person in our prisons, they just learn to be be better predators.

[cbayer]

9. Each to his own. I'm a strongly anti-death penalty and would love to see it outlawed

in this country.

So you are saying that anyone who attempts to kill another or does actually kill another should be put to death? And you are also saying that anyone that does these things can not be rehabilitated?

That is one extreme view you have there and there is no evidence to back up your statement about rehabilitation.

What do you think of not guilty by reason of insanity? Do you think people with serious psychiatric illnesses that attempt to kill someone should be put to death as well?

[trotsky]

10. In which country?

You don't even live in the US anymore, do you?

[nil desperandum]

11. Rehabilitation

are you suggesting that in the US criminals in maximum and supermax (where violent offenders are incarcerated) are routinely reintroduced successfully into our society?

There is little evidence to support that.

If you are suggesting minimum and medium security non-violent offenders have a lower rate of recidivism I would agree. The United States has a deplorable record of failing to rehabilitate in max/supermax prisons. Our current procedures basically create a better class of predator in those facilities and some medium security facilities aren't much better. Our inability to strike down prison gangs using violence to control prisons is a huge problem and one for which polite society is ill-equipped to resolve currently.

Regarding the mentally ill there is little evidence that insane people are truly safe to re-enter society so what benefit is it to keep them alive and hope they continue to take the mind deadening drugs necessary to keep them docile?

How is our society enhanced by that individual's presence in a cage doped up to the point of incapacity?

What's more cruel and unusual in that scenario? A painless death by falling asleep or decades of being slowly killed through mind altering drugs used to control the individual?

[cbayer]

12. Your claims about psychiatric patients are completely off base and reprehensible.

Most people who commit crimes due to their psychiatric illness are very treatable. It is outrageous to suggest that they should not be treated and that they should be executed. What you appear to understand about psychiatric illness and treatment approaches zero. Your attitude towards the psychiatrically ill is some of the most loathsome stuff I have ever read here.

I am also challenging your assertion that no one who tries to murder someone else is a candidate for rehabilitation. Unless I read your post incorrectly, that is what I thought you were saying.

Whether we are doing a good job or not is not the issue. The issue is whether it can be done and should be done.

And I'm not talking about everyone being released. Are you suggesting that anyone who has a low possibility of being released should be executed?

[Yorktown]

25. Are they?

Most people who commit crimes due to their psychiatric illness are very treatable.

How do you know that? Source? How many is 'most'?

It is outrageous to suggest that they should not be treated and that they should be executed.

No. It's actually an interesting moral question:
Take a serial killer who is so severely mentally ill there's no reasonable prospect of curing him.
His detention forever will cost a certain amount of time and money which could be spent, say, on helping African children get sewage. If it's either/or, what is the moral choice?

What you appear to understand about psychiatric illness and treatment approaches zero. Your attitude towards the psychiatrically ill is some of the most loathsome stuff I have ever read here.

Good think you're sticking to facts and reasoning, or you would use ad hominems.

[nil desperandum]

29. I wish

my claims were completely off base.

Experience has shown they are not.

We've seen patients with major issues constantly failing to maintain their medication regimen and guess what happens when they fall off their meds? They go missing, they end up in a shelter or they end up dead.

Most criminals who graduate to attempted murder have a history of progressively more violent criminal activity. These are not typically choir boys who had a single bad day they are career criminals who've come to understand that witnesses are problematic to their desire to escape without penalty. Consequently dead people are preferable as they are unable to explain what happened.

Whether we are doing a good job or not is not the issue.

Of course it is, it's the major issue. Without addressing the massive failure across the board of our current system there is little hope to get a system in place to do what you would like to see happen and treat people and help them successfully re-enter society. The current system has little ability at the max/supermax to do that and many medium security facilities are functionally incapable of rising to that task. Consequently those that these failed systems release into society are just better predators, often more violent and more dangerous than when they went in to the system for their most recent term of incarceration.

We can't have a serious discussion if you consider me a loathsome individual with horrible views. I consider myself a realist who adapts to the current situation. I've seen a great many ugly sides of this world over the last forty years.

Your views are exactly what we need to drive towards the future, but if we are being honest while you consider me loathsome I consider you a bit of a dreamer without any experience in the ugly realities of our criminal "justice" system and those who inhabit it's lower tiers of hellish existence.

You see people waiting for redemption, I see those waiting to rid you of your possessions and your life if you resist. Experience and data suggest I am unfortunately more accurate in my assessment than you.

I do appreciate your time and your response, as I am loathsome to your point of view there is probably no point in us continuing to discuss matters of interest. We will not find that common ground perhaps after all.

[cbayer]

30. I understand that there are difficult issues to be addressed when dealing

with psychiatric patients who commit crimes, but execution is not the solution.

I consider your views horrible and loathsome on this matter, and you may be correct that we can not have a serious discussion.

Where do you get your "experience"? On what do you base your conclusions?

Don't assume anything about my experience in this area. I can pretty much guarantee you that it far exceeds yours.

I've seen some really out there POV's on this, but your suggestions that we execute the psychiatrically ill are really the worst.

[truebrit71]

39. Do you even read the shit you write?

"Don't assume anything about my experience", and you then IMMEDIATELY make an assumption about theirs....

Good grief...

[trotsky]

40. ...

[cbayer]

41. How are you trubrit71! How's the weather up in your part of the world?

I understand that sweet cherries are coming into season. A wonderful pie seems to be in order.

[Humanist_Activist]

22. Do you get your view of the mentally ill from TV? Seriously, WTF? n/t

[edhopper]

13. How do you feel about the execution of innocent people

there is no denying that happens, and will continue to happen.

[nil desperandum]

14. Tsarnaev isn't innocent

the circumstances surrounding his conviction are quite simple. He and his attorney admitted he did it. There's little to discuss about his innocence.

Other cases where there is a considerable lack of evidence beyond circumstantial should never be execution crimes, especially with a perpetrator having no history of violence or no history of criminality.

The question asked of me was whether or not I support the death penalty, I've no inherent qualms about killing murderers and those with a history of violent crimes whether anyone was murdered or not. That is a very minority view, and as cbayer states extreme for American society.

I realize it's not acceptable amongst many of my fellow Democrats to espouse such positions. However my personal experience as well as DOJ studies indicate that violent criminals remain violent even while in prison. If we are not locking them in their cell for 24 hours a day until they die then we've also subjected prison guards and prison personnel to potential violence from those criminals who regularly used violence on the outside prior to their convictions.

I'm not certain there is a long term societal benefit to housing tens of thousands of people for whom there is no rehabilitation and for whom prison is a criminal college that educates them on a more violent career path upon re-entry into society. We either need to address prison reform so that those who might be salvageable (I'm not certain there are very many in that category) have a true chance at redemption or admit the truth that our max/supermax prisons are an abject failure with respect to reducing violent repeat offenders and consider alternatives such as true 24 hour a day lockdowns or executions.

Most would prefer 24 hour a day lockdowns, I'm not certain we can fully implement that without lawsuits either as it might be deemed cruel and unusual punishment. Execution resolves it completely.

[edhopper]

19. It's a general question,

not only about this case.

How do you feel about the fact that innocent people have been and will be executed?

[Humanist_Activist]

21. How many bar fights does someone have to be locked up for before they get executed?

Seriously, extreme minority view is right, you view is downright medieval, impractical, inhumane, cruel...shit, I think I ran out of descriptors. Not to mention counterproductive, the death penalty doesn't work.

[cbayer]

31. Pigs may fly, because I agree with you 100% here.

[Yorktown]

15. The non-religious are the least supporters of the death penalty.

New proof religion doesn't correlate with humane beliefs.

[rug]

16. Have you proof atheism correlates with humane beliefs?

[AtheistCrusader]

17. Mighty big can of worms you're picking at the lid on, there.

[rug]

35. Flipping a question is like flipping a rock.

All sorts of things crawl out.

[Humanist_Activist]

20. Correlates in the United States, yes, causes, no.

The proof is actually in the post you responded to, irreligious people, including atheists, are more likely to be against the death penalty. Unless you think being pro-death penalty is more humane.

[Yorktown]

23. I wouldn't expect to.

Atheism doesn't do anything. It can't. Atheism is just an absence (of belief).

Atheism is just the rejection of man made superstitions which have no roots in reality.

Religions thrived on harnessing the goodness existing in (most) humans.

As religion fades away, humans will need to invent new ways to channel their goodness.

[phil89]

26. Rational thought generally does.

nt

[cbayer]

33. Rational thought correlates with being humane? Really?

Certainly your rational thought can come up with some data to support that, right?

[cbayer]

34. Interestingly, among the religious, there is a negative correlation between

church attendance and support for the death penalty. The numbers for Catholics that attend church regularly are just like those for nonbelievers.

New proof that being a practicing catholic correlates with humane beliefs….. or something.

[AtheistCrusader]

18. I'll consider the death penalty when the state actually lives up to

Due process and equal protection under the law.

So basically, never.

[Yorktown]

24. The death penalty isn't a very good solution

There might be some cases where the criminal is beyond redemption

(forgot the name of that serial killer who said he advised against ever setting him free,
because he would get back at the -gruesome, form memory- things he was doing)

But even then, there's the psychological damage on those who have to execute.

[Rob H.]

27. That sounds like Edmund Kemper, the "Co-Ed Killer"

who turned himself in in 1973 in California. He killed 10 people, including his mother and grandparents, and has openly admitted he belongs in jail and would kill again if he were ever paroled.

[cbayer]

32. No, actually blacks are the least supportive of the death penalty.

New proof that being black correlates with humane beliefs….. or something.

[Yorktown]

36. Nice sidestepping.

Being black or white isn't a choice or a philosophy.

But about ideas, "By their fruit you will recognize them." (Matthew 7:16)

Which was my point: religions do not teach their followers that the death penalty isn't good.

[cbayer]

37. Uh oh. Catholics that attend church once a week show the same level of support

as non-affiliated.

Poof! There goes your argument.

[Yorktown]

38. Logic isn't your strong suit.

My graph provides a positive correlation between the main religions and agreement with the death penalty.

In that correlation, the subgroup of Catholics is represented. Which proves that the doctrine this global subgroup shares does not teach them a rejection of the death penalty. So much for 'objective morality' religions, including Catholicism, claim.

The opinion of a sub-subgroup can't make you draw any conclusion of the teachings shared by the larger subgroup (assuming the sub subgroup sample size is big enough to allow representativity).

[hrmjustin]

28. The death penalty is wrong.

He may deserve it but we must not ever do it.