In Age of Science, Is Religion 'Harmful Superstition'?

[Warren Stupidity]

In a nutshell, why are religion and science incompatible?

They’re incompatible first of all, because they both compete to find truths about the universe. There are some fundamental truths about the universe that believers have to accept in order to be religious. Many Muslims see the Koran as literally true. To question any of that is to bring a death sentence on yourself. The reason why people are so concerned with harmonizing science and religion, as opposed to, say, science and architecture, or science and baseball, is because science and religion are competitors in the field of esoteric truths about the cosmos.

But we use different methods to ascertain what’s true. Science has an exquisitely refined series of methods honed over 500 years to find out what’s real and what’s false. Richard Feynman gave the best definition of science I ever heard, “It’s a way to keep you from fooling yourself, because you’re the easiest person to fool.” Religion doesn’t have a methodology to weed out what’s false. In fact, it’s a way of fooling yourself. They have authority, revelation, dogma, and indoctrination as their methods and no way of proving their tenets false.


There are thousands and thousands of religions and all of them make incompatible claims about the universe. The reason that that’s the case is because they don’t have any way of testing those claims.

You call religion “the most widespread and harmful form of superstition.” Make your case.

One of the meanings of superstition in the Oxford English dictionary is a belief that is unfounded or irrational. Since I see all religious belief as unfounded and irrational, I consider religion to be superstition. It’s certainly the most widespread form of superstition because the vast majority of people on Earth are believers. Other forms of superstition, like astrology, belief in UFOs or telekinesis, are nowhere near as widespread. And the damage that religion has done to humanity is far more than the damage that astrology or the belief in Bigfoot has done. This is the problem with ISIS and other Islamist organizations. It used to be the problem with Christianity, as well. People get killed because they don’t share your beliefs.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/05/150531-religion-science-faith-healing-atheism-people-ngbooktalk/

[Iggo]

1. In any age.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. I think there is a case to be made that religion served a useful

purpose in the past. I'm not sure I fully buy into it, but it has some validity. Civilization has evolved past that point.

[Iggo]

13. It's useful in the present.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. well I meant useful as a vehicle for human progress

not useful for keeping people ignorant.

[Iggo]

17. Yeah, I know.

But I think we'd've progressed anyway.

[Major Nikon]

190. I'm not sure how good that case would be

...unless you consider an alternative where organized religion didn't exist, which would be quite difficult.

It's important to remember that organized religion isn't just a benevolent entity. For most of recorded history it was synonymous with government and was used as a tool to control the masses. Were it not for organized religion, people would have undoubtedly formed secular collective organizations, and without the authoritative control that organized religion offered, it's not hard to imagine they would have been more accountable to the people.

[Warren Stupidity]

191. For the most part I agree, but consider all those pathetic

monks employed by the church for centuries to dutifully transcribe the surviving ancient texts from moldering volumes to new ones, year after year, decade after decade. Was the church also at least partially responsible for holding back a re-emergence of vital civilization in western europe at the same time? Yup. I guess it is a balancing act as to net negative or net positive. The initial slow collapse of the early medieval period was not the fault of the church, it was the fault of the roman empire's inability to adapt to change. The church itself at least maintained the organizational structure (the dioceses) the empire left behind. And within that wreckage eventually a revitalized civilization emerged.

[phantom power]

108. +1, it was always harmful

it just took a long time to come up with something better.

[hrmjustin]

2. My faith and religion does me no harm.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. obviously.

[hrmjustin]

5. My faith has helped me through some hard times.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. it was a hard day's night.

[hrmjustin]

7. Point is it does me no harm.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. And now my life has changed in oh so many ways

[hrmjustin]

9. I am glad things are looking up.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. One thing I can tell you is we got to be free

[hrmjustin]

11. I am free.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. And freedom tastes of reality!

[hrmjustin]

15. Yes it does.

[bvf]

22. No, you're not.

As long as you cling to to supernatural beliefs, you will not be truly free.

It is my sincere hope that you realize that some day.

[hrmjustin]

23. I am free despite your words.

I am free to believe what i want thank you.

Your concern is oh so touching.


How would you like if i said i hope you get Jesus in your life someday? Doubt you would like it.

[bvf]

24. My concern is quite sincere. n/t.

[hrmjustin]

25. i rather think not.

[bvf]

26. Think what you like.

It doesn't change anything.

[hrmjustin]

27. Thank you for your permission

[bvf]

37. It's a common English expression.

[hrmjustin]

39. So is whatever.

[bvf]

48. Yeah. That one was really popular among

my daughter and her middle school friends, IIRC.

[hrmjustin]

49. Since i am not free as you say i have to find out now if i can continue this conversation,

[bvf]

63. My sympathies.

[rug]

33. You don't know what you're missing

[Yorktown]

62. Please do tell what he's missing

[rug]

106. Ask John.

Nowhere Man, please listen
You don't know what you're missing
Nowhere Man, the world is at your command

[Yorktown]

107. Oh! That John?

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

[rug]

109. Yes. Isn't this a Beatles lyrics thread?

Day after day, alone on the hill
The man with the foolish grin is keeping perfectly still
But nobody wants to know him
They can see that he's just a fool

[Yorktown]

116. On the same topic

[longship]

203. Truly a DUzy worthy subthread.

We can call it "Dueling Beatles Lyrics".

[phil89]

19. How do you know your irrational beliefs

are harmless?

[hrmjustin]

20. What harm could my so called "irrational beliefs" be causing?

[rug]

34. How do you know your opinions are rational?

I see a helluva argument the other way.

[Yorktown]

64. But we know believing in Moses IS irrational

So many bits of the Bible and Quran are irrational.

[safeinOhio]

69. "So many bits of the Bible and Quran are irrational."

Well, then you are saying that many bits of the Bible and Quran are rational. I would have to agree with both statements. However, I don't think it is worth going to war over deciding which bits are or are not. For me the problem(insanity) is at the extremes of both sides. That may be why I like the groups that the author points out accept members that do and do not think alike.

[Yorktown]

71. The Bible and the Quran could not have survived if they were 100% irrational

Like most books.

But why should the quran and bible with their numerous mistakes and frequent violence be considered books of guidance?

Walt Disney cartoons make more sense as morality guides than the bronze age 'holy' books.

[Warren Stupidity]

74. There is a whole section of the O.T. that is a fairly accurate history of

Israel and Judah. Anyone making the argument "yeah but it isn't 100% looney toons" ought to reflect on what that argument implies about an allegedly sacred text that purports to represent the words of a god.

[edhopper]

28. Do you think

Woman in Saudi Arabia say the same thing?

What about States here that have legalized discrimination against gay people or eliminated
women's reproductive rights?

[hrmjustin]

29. No i think religion has harmed them.

[AtheistCrusader]

51. And some of them embrace that harm anyway, sadly.

You would probably feel sympathy for them, much like I feel it for you, and like you, they do not recognize of appreciate that there is anything negative to feel sympathy for.

[hrmjustin]

52. You have sympathy for me?

[AtheistCrusader]

53. I do.

I don't know the specifics, but you've alluded to some serious shit that has gone down in your life, and that sucks.

But more generally speaking, yes. I feel bad for people who hold out hope for anything beyond this life. But in the end you won't be disappointed, so there's that I guess.

[hrmjustin]

56. Your concern is noted.

[silverweb]

16. It depends.

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]I've never considered the two to be incompatible. Both seek truth (although religions that claim to already possess "the only truth" are ridiculously arrogant).

Let's go by the five most important answers a good journalist goes after: Who, what, where, how, why, and when. Science seeks the what, where, how, and when, based on evidence. Religions seek the who and why, for which evidence is lacking, and so are "faith based," usually depending on a mythology developed over time by many people.

Religious people can believe their versions of who and why as much as they like, as far as I'm concerned. Like Thomas Jefferson said, "...it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg" (Notes on Virginia, 1782).

When religionists start denying scientific evidence for what, where, how, and when - and especially when they try to impose those beliefs on others (I'm looking at you, fundies of all stripes) - then we have problems.

At least, that's the way I've always viewed the matter.

On edit: I highly recommend the novel, Blasphemy, by Douglas Preston. It deals fascinatingly with just this issue.

[Yorktown]

65. I think Jefferson was wrong

"...it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg"

It does depend on whether said religion prescribes the faithful to break your leg or not.

[safeinOhio]

75. That gate swings both ways.

Ayn Rand justifies her free market greed with her atheist anti-altruism. To justify her ideology she said "Religion is the first enemy of the ability to think and faith is the worst curse of mankind. It is the greatest disease of mankind" (Rand, 1999). Now the world, and even the religious have adopted her philosophy of radical free markets that she herself justifies with her atheism. I would think these ideas are doing more to destroy the world and bring about fascism in our time than my my neighbor that says there are 20 gods.
She denies that altruism has been an adaptive force that has been a positive one for mankind.

[Yorktown]

78. There is not a yes/no religion gate

Religion is just one way to be wrong.
Nazism is another. Stalinism. Ayn Randism another.

[safeinOhio]

89. As is radical atheism.

[Yorktown]

92. There cannot be a {radical} atheism

Atheism is just saying: I see no reason, no proof to believe in gods.

From there on, you have tons of different atheists with lots of different ideas and styles.

If you call a 'radical atheist' someone who has made it his calling to aggressively attack believers, let's just call that person someone with aggressivity issues unresolved.

But someone calmly challenging the beliefs of theists is not 'radical', he's consistent.

[safeinOhio]

98. Beyond consistent is

angry and challenging every opposing view. Refusing to see any good in the other and looking at a single issue in black and white terms.

There can be a radical atheism as well as fundamentalistic atheism, in my opinion, but I leave it to you to disagree with my observations.

By the way, I use Ayn Rand of an example of dangerous radical atheism.

[trotsky]

117. There's also a problem with being rigid and insisting everything follow the same pattern,

and fit into the same boxes, every single time. Atheism is just like religion, etc.

[Act_of_Reparation]

118. That makes sense.

If you're illiterate and you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

What, pray tell, is a "fundamentalist atheist"? Someone who adheres to the fundamentals of atheism? As there is but one atheist fundamental -- the lack of belief in a deity -- I struggle to envision what a non-fundamentalist atheist would be. A person who kinda-sorta doesn't believe in God?

Ayn Rand was an atheist. Ayn Rand was also an anarcho-capitalist. You might consider her more atrocious beliefs might have a tad more to do with the latter than the former.

[Warren Stupidity]

120. ah "radical atheism" is "speaking up".

can't the atheists just shut up already? amirite?

[Lordquinton]

122. her atheism is a non sequitur here

how does she support it? There isn't a "god says so" here, no mysterious ways to justify harming people here. Her trying to justify her views with atheism falls apart because there is no connection, just as your point falls apart by trying to make atheism into a religion to prove your point.

[LostOne4Ever]

174. Exactly!

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]No matter how hard people try to do otherwise, it is not possible to derive a "ought" statement out of an "is" statement.

Hume's Guillotine. [/font]

[Act_of_Reparation]

179. Which is doubly hilarious because the is-ought problem is central to criticism of Objectivism.

Just because people are selfish, doesn't mean people should be selfish. QED.

[silverweb]

113. I think I covered that.

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]See the paragraph after the Jefferson quote.

I'm also pretty sure Jefferson would have said the 18th Century equivalent of "No duh!" were your point brought up to him.

[Yorktown]

114. No , duh?

To the question if violent religions should be restrained?

I never read Jefferson was a masochist.

[silverweb]

128. He'd agree that violence is not an option.

[Yorktown]

168. Even if the religion itself preaches violence?

[silverweb]

170. I seem to not be making myself clear.

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]Jefferson clearly stated that he didn't care what people believed in terms of their faith or lack of faith in god(s) because it did no harm to him (or others). There is also a big difference between personal faith and being subject to the authoritian hierarchy of an organized religion, and I believe he was referring to the former in the statement in question.

I do not believe he would extend tolerance to any religion that preached and/or practiced violence against nonbelievers in the present (not purely based on the historical past, i.e., Crusades, etc). Things he said and did regarding the separation or "wall" between church and state made that quite clear.

Period. Full stop.

I apologize if I wasn't clear before and am not interested in pursuing this further, so have a nice evening.

[Yorktown]

171. You were clear, but not addressing the underlying problem.

I perfectly understand Jefferson's distinction which you quote: private belief vs acts.

I am pointing out that Jefferson's distinction fails IMHO when the belief demands violence.

The Mayan cult required a human sacrifice every morning to make the sun rise.
When religions have dangerous edicts, belief in them is a latent danger.

And waiting for latent dangers to become patent is not the most prudent policy.

[libodem]

18. Watched a Rachael Maddow

In V&M about 'C' Street and the evangelical movement of of political zealots to Africa and Europe exporting nonsense about the Second Coming as a foregone conclusion. In that context, yes. And, its expensive to tax payers,too. And it's crazy scammy bullshit.

Plus, those Dominuist loons that Palin and Cruise belong to. That is also a takeover of everything by believers from government to entertainment, I wonder if they are behind the movement to destroy education, because of it?
I belive they would see our whole secular education system destroyed because Religious Zealots feel it competes with, Creation. Yeah, it's dangerous.

Also the demand that women are subjugated to fit the family values model of 2nd class status, in everything, become, you know, "the rib", part of creation.
As you know men have been giving birth to humanity, ever since, right? All life flows from the loins of men and from God the Father. Manhood trumps everything because women were somehow actually born of a man. Also when you get right down to it the immaculate conception, besides being unbelievable, is an unconsented forcible rape of a child under 18.

If Science behaved toward Religion the way Religion challenges Science, there would be huge cries of persecution and malice, in subjects like evolution and geophysical carbon dating especially.

Yeah, its dangerous to one's intellect. It's probably just as emotionally crippling but no one needs another essay out of my philosophical ass, today.

No offense to anyone who finds comfort in the doctrine and dictates of the 'word'. Have at it, Hoss.

[safeinOhio]

21. Taoism is a religion

and has some interesting views on reality. Granted some of Taoist rulers were not the best, but as for just reading the Tao Te Ching, I find some very useful ideas. I also respect Quakers for the most part.

[libodem]

41. Yep

I embrace Buddhist philosophy. Right living makes sense to me.

[Yorktown]

66. The Tao is the Tao, and in that, it is not the true Tao

[beam me up scottie]

30. Oh hell yes:

One of the most moving sections of your book is about Ashley King. Tell us her story and how it illustrates the dangers of religion?

It illustrates the dangers of what I call, “vertical proselytizing faith,” where you enforce your beliefs of religion on your kids when they’re too young to know otherwise. This religion is Christian Science, in which disease is seen as having spiritual causes. Christian Scientists reject science-based medicine in favor of prayer and spiritual healing.

Ashley King was the daughter of two well-off Christian Scientists in Arizona. Not the toothless Bible thumpers you think of when you think of fundamentalists. Ashley developed a lump on her leg, which turned out to be bone cancer. Instead of taking her to a doctor, they took her out of school and tried to treat her with prayer. The lump eventually got to be as big as a watermelon. Child services finally took her away from her parents.

Ashley went to the hospital and the doctor said, “It’s too late. This tumor’s too big. But we can give her some time by amputating her leg.” Her parents refused and stopped her being given pain-killing medicine.

Instead, they put her in a Christian Science sanatorium, which, by the way, is subsidized by the U.S. government. Her medicine consisted of giving her water and prayer. She started shrieking and crying out. The thing was incredibly painful. But all they did was pray. Finally, she died.

Her parents were prosecuted and convicted, but they were only given unsupervised probation. In 43 out of 50 American states, faith healing that harms your children is not a civil or criminal problem. Thousands of kids have died through Christian Science and the Followers of Christ in Oregon and Idaho. There are graveyards filled with dead kids who were given faith healing.

[haikugal]

35. Child abuse by the religious takes many forms...but unfortunately it happens all the time and

they get away with it because, religion.

[beam me up scottie]

36. And we're not supposed to mock or criticize their sacred beliefs.

Because the tolerant thing to do is let them keep abusing and killing kids.

[840high]

31. I need science and my religion.

[rug]

32. You could have saved time by just saying Jerry Coyne is promoting a new book.

[Lordquinton]

38. looks like you really touched a nerve with this thread

Some folks can't handle a light shone on the dark corners of religion.

[rug]

40. Some folks cant pass a chance to hawk a book.

[Warren Stupidity]

72. Some folks cant pass a chance to hack a loogie.

Are book interviews some sort of sin now?

[rug]

131. Speak for yourself.

[Warren Stupidity]

143. take your own advice

[rug]

145. My post had nothing to do with bodily functions.

Is your next comment about bowel movements?

Not that it would not be an improvement.

[Warren Stupidity]

148. hawking a book is not a bodily function?

[rug]

151. No.

Putting on a stupid face, however, is.

[Warren Stupidity]

154. Stay classy rug.

of course hawking a book is a bodily function. You should think your responses through first. You frequently get confused by your own arguments.

[rug]

156. Keep hawking those loogies, warren.

[Warren Stupidity]

158. how sad.

[rug]

160. Tsk.

[beam me up scottie]

42. Ikr?

One is trying to derail the thread now.

[Lordquinton]

44. desperation shows strongly

When suddenly someone that happens to have written a book jnvalidates everything they have to say.

[beam me up scottie]

45. Trying to shut down the conversation.

Maybe Warren should have posted a right wing hit piece and gotten it hidden.

That was fun.

[rug]

46. That must have stung.

[AtheistCrusader]

55. Do tell.

[Lordquinton]

50. i try to avoid posting when I'm upset

Very dangerous.

[beam me up scottie]

54. It can be.

Sometimes it's better to say nothing at all.

[Lordquinton]

58. at least some content

Not just a subject line and not even a nt to signify your post isn't worth clicking on.

[beam me up scottie]

59. I like song references.

We have some very witty posters here.

[hrmjustin]

43. Sure we can. weird post.

[Yorktown]

67. When light is shone at dark corners of religion, the answer is "I take it on faith"

So light never reaches those dark recesses.

Faith blocks photons.

[bvf]

68. "Faith blocks photons."

I like that.

[hrmjustin]

77. lol.

[Yorktown]

79. Interesting

[hrmjustin]

80. Agreed.

[Yorktown]

81. lol.

[hrmjustin]

82. Have a good week and good luck on your attempt to get your own room.

Doubt he will say yes but you never know.

[Yorktown]

83. I am not the standardbearer anymore.

Others are carrying the Pastafarian torch now.

[hrmjustin]

84. Did you lose your faith?

[Yorktown]

85. No, but I am a pragmatic individual.

And I noted some were 'mod-reporting' me for anything. Even for breaches of unwritten rules.

I especially loved the clown who reported me on grounds I would have 'trolled' an administrator

My only interactions with the administrator Skinner were:
• to request -at your suggestion- in 'AtA' the FSM Church to be included in Interfaith
• to request -at someone's suggestion- in general' the creation of a FSM forum,
with a link proving it was the established way of doing this type of thing at DU

So, no, my faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster is intact.

But my faith in the good faith of Democrats discussing religion is not so intact.

[hrmjustin]

86. I would not have voted to hide that post.

But to be honest i doubt they will get that room.

For reasons he already stated and i think the room might be used to attack other DUers.

I see some wants to exclude mainstream religions from the room.

that is really telling to me.

[Yorktown]

87. What I note is the petty way in which some try to settle discussions with mod reports

In the name of religion. And religion teaches love, right?

Except towards those who disagree with it, I suppose.

Childish. And a neat way to demonstrate religion doesn't teach morality.

[hrmjustin]

88. We don't know the motives of those who voted to hide.

Some saw skinners response to you and thought you were pushing too far.

I would not have voted to hide it.

but i would also say no to the room.

[Yorktown]

90. All I'm doubting is the motivations of the 'reporters'

I also loved the dishonesty of another report.

In a first post, I called someone a liar because he was lying about what I had said. No report.
Because in that first post, I proved the lie.

Then the liar reposted, and I tried to close the debate by saying I didn't engage liars.
That second post -difficult to interpret without the context of the first post- got reported.

All I'm saying is that that person which reported the second post is a low weasel.

And from the way the report was formulated, I've got a pretty good idea of who it was.

[hrmjustin]

91. Well may e you should use the ignore function.

[Yorktown]

93. Certainly not. That would be stooping to the level of that reporter.

I come to debate forums to debate.
I try to do it as nicely as possible, with the occasional one-liner because they are fun.
If someone disagrees and wants to tack me head on, welcome.

Behind the back playing with the hide report system is for weasels, IMHO.

[hrmjustin]

94. Then you need to be more cautious what you say.

[Yorktown]

95. What if it was the report system that got abused?

If the system is built so that it's the liar that gets away,
and the one exposing the lie who gets 'hidden',

then the system is corrupt.

[hrmjustin]

97. That is possible. There are several cases a week of hifes that are questionable.

But whether they are questionable or not they are still hidden and 5 hides means a suspension of posting privileges.

[Yorktown]

101. Fully expect me to be on a posting vacation soon then

5 hides means a suspension of posting privileges.

I just have to seneeze to get that now.

[hrmjustin]

103. Try your best to not take any bait.

[Yorktown]

104. You know the scorpion story? One liners are in my nature.

Anyway, the www is wide, and I'll take vacations elsewhere.

Besides, I'd bet on HRC elected end 2016 , so 'general' is a bit lame.

[hrmjustin]

105. ok.

[Yorktown]

96. And. caution or not, the hide of my general FSM thread was a mockery

A warning abut rules (contradicting the link I had posted, but nvm) would have been enough.

[hrmjustin]

99. I would not have voted to hide that.

[Yorktown]

100. Again, the point is not about you, it's about that 'kind' reporter..

.. who thinks discussions about issues can be 'won' by reporting people to death.

[hrmjustin]

102. ok.

[LostOne4Ever]

140. Ahoy matey, I would like you to please note:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1230&pid=42697

Scaliwags who be allying themselves with mainstream religions against the Flying Spaghetti Monster, may his Parmesan ever be fresh, and those who support him are not welcome.

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]That I specifically said "against" and italicized it.

Buccaneers from mainstream religions that wish to support his noodliness are more than welcome and I shall personally have a tankard of Capt'n Morgan's finest opened up for dem landlubbers.[/font]

[hrmjustin]

142. Thank you for the correction but since skinner did not answer your

question it looks like the answer is no.

[LostOne4Ever]

146. Patience Boyo

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal] Capt'n Long John Silver started out as a mere cook.

Great plans require patience...and rum. Lots and lots of rum.[/font]

[hrmjustin]

155. Good luck.

[LostOne4Ever]

165. Thank ye kindly

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]After our ship leaves her port be sure to come by me quarters. I will have me Chef, Black Leg Sanji, serve you up some of Long John Silver's own Pasta Primavera!

[center][/center]
[/font]

[Yorktown]

169. Your piratese is fluent

Shows dedication to our Church.

May your carbonara always be fresh.

[LostOne4Ever]

186. I be hopin' you like pasta primavera

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Cause the good Ship FSM be set to sail!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12597997[/font]

[hrmjustin]

188. Yes i just saw.

[Lordquinton]

123. you know, we all supported your attempts to get interfaith going

Sorry for breaking the rules, but your group would not exist if it weren't for A&A stepping up and getting the petetion filled and sent. This is the gratitude you have?

[hrmjustin]

124. I was not a part of the Interfaith push.

Try again.

[Lordquinton]

126. that's the point

You weren't, none of the people who enjoy the group (and use it to exclude and attack other DUers) were part of it. You weren't around to form the prayer group and you use it to exclude and attack other DUers.

If you showed some Christian fellowship instead of weilding your privilege like a club things would be nicer around here.

[hrmjustin]

127. You concern is noted.

But i think the owner of this site said it all.

http://election.democraticunderground.com/12597940#post1

"You aren't actually believers in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's a joke"

[Lordquinton]

129. your lack of concern is noted

as is your lack of compassion.

[hrmjustin]

130. What do you think of what skinner said?

[Lordquinton]

132. irrelevant

He said it in the context of the interfaith group. Much like the pope's "who am i to judge" about homosexuals was in the context of the priesthood. Removing the context makes the statement moot.

[hrmjustin]

133. I figured you would say that.

[Lordquinton]

134. as i figured you'd grab the club and not the olive branch

So much for Christian values. IGGMFY is your new creed it seems.

[hrmjustin]

135. Skinner is answering ata right now. lets see if he responds to the request for an fsm group.

[hrmjustin]

136. No response from skinner.

I guess that means no group.

[Lordquinton]

137. your just chomping at to bit to do some grave dancing

Disgusting.

[hrmjustin]

138. Grave dancing? Who died?

[Lordquinton]

139. the whole concept of inclusion in any DU interfaith concept for one

[hrmjustin]

141. Do you realize if i let FSM posts in interfaith or the prayer circle there will be hidden

posts?

They will be alerted on and hidden. It has already happened in the prayer circle.

I could let them in but their posts will likely get hidden.

[Warren Stupidity]

144. so from your perspective that would be a good thing.

your enemies would get more hides. I don't think you've thought this through.

[hrmjustin]

149. If i wanted you to get more hides i would not have banned you from those two rooms.

i locked you one op in the prayer circle so you would not get your post hidden. I could have left it open to get alerted on.

Your hide a few days later made me ban you from the room.

Contrary to popular opinion I am not looking for hides against you or your friends.

And while i don't consider you a friend i don't see you as an enemy.

[Lordquinton]

147. whatever helps you sleep at night

If you actually believe that then you should be on board wi their own group.

[hrmjustin]

153. i sleep fine and there is not going to be a group.

[PassingFair]

199. Tsk, tsk.... There IS going to be a group.

Sorry your crusade was a failure.

You can probably even post there...if you watch your tone and
pray correctly.

[hrmjustin]

200. Crusade? what crusade?

I never said to the owner he should not allow it.

And no i will not be joining it.

[PassingFair]

201. Alright....how about smug certainty and opposition?

[hrmjustin]

202. I will say i was wrong when i predicted skinner would say no.

[cleanhippie]

210. While a noble and contrite act your admission may be, you didn't predict, you proclaimed.

You spoke with authority and arrogance on the subject as if the decision was up to you or had knowledge that no one else was privy to.

Go back and read your posts. Seriously.

[hrmjustin]

211. Call Amnesty International right now!

[cleanhippie]

212. You've made it clear that your admission was merely lipservice.

But most knew that already.


Which reminds me, I was reading up on the 7 Deadly Sins the other day, with emphasis on Envy and Pride (and perhaps Wrath). Seems more than coincidental, wouldn't you agree?

[hrmjustin]

213. Remind me to go to confession.

[cleanhippie]

214. Would it mean as much as your post upthread?

Or less so?

[hrmjustin]

215. Lol. i am not sorry for anything.

I thought he would not set it up. I was wrong.

i disagree with him but it is his site.

You enjoy the new room.

[cleanhippie]

217. That you're not sorry is apparent and no surprise.

[hrmjustin]

219. Nor should i be sorry.

[cleanhippie]

220. No, not at all.

Jesus is smiling today, I'm sure.

[hrmjustin]

221. Yes he is.

[cleanhippie]

222. For sure!

[hrmjustin]

223. Enjoy.

[cleanhippie]

224. Already am.

[hrmjustin]

225. Enjoy the rest of your day.

[cleanhippie]

226. Is that a directive?

or a proclamation.

[hrmjustin]

227. It has been a pleasure as always.

[cleanhippie]

228. I'm sure it has.

[Lordquinton]

150. why?

Why would there be hidden posts?

[hrmjustin]

152. People get offended by it.

2 fsm posts were hidden in the prayer circle.

One before i was host.

[Lordquinton]

157. so intolerant people in places of tolerance

the intolerant ones should be gone, not the ones seeking comfort and inclusion. Just proves my point about actual religious tolerance here.

[hrmjustin]

159. Say what you will but i see through this game.

[Lordquinton]

163. do you now?

I think we both know who was offended by the Pastafarians. Tell the group, what about them scares you do much?

[hrmjustin]

164. Nothing.

Not a damn thing.

[mr blur]

166. Ooo, you have such power, eh?

But remember: "Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others."

[hrmjustin]

167. I don't know what your problem is with me.

Obviously you don't care for me and you have let me know with not so good results.

If you have a problem with me i invite you to use ignore.

[Rob H.]

161. Could it also be that he hasn't decided yet?

There are older questions in ATA that haven't been answered, either. I hate to think that he would just completely blow off a lot of the people who're still waiting and let their questions remain unanswered.

Edit: I've never asked anything in the ATA forum, so I don't know how they usually handle things there.

[hrmjustin]

162. Not likely.

The older questions that don't get answered never get answered.

[Heddi]

187. Whoops. I hope you're not a psychic in your spare time

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12597997

[hrmjustin]

189. i won't play the lottery.

[cleanhippie]

192. Or god.

[hrmjustin]

193. Never wanted that job.

[cleanhippie]

194. That's what most say.

[hrmjustin]

195. No doubt.

[cleanhippie]

196. For sure.

[libodem]

47. Okay, I just actually read the link

And this is a good read. I recommend it. It makes a lot of sense.

I still believe in a place for religious observation. I believe it is important to honor human milestones within an adopted community. That is important to me and a reason to congregate. There is something about pomp and circumstance and the ritual. I like all that. I like the inside of a beautiful Catholic Church. I experience the uplift of the stained glass and high ceilings. I like the response I feel to choir music. I like the captivity of an uplifting sermon and the feeling of being part of a collective consciousness for a moment. I get the spiritual high phenomenon. I might go to a UU sometime.

I will never be religious but it it suits anyone else I'm totally tolerant. Well, then there are the poor kids....

[Warren Stupidity]

73. Oh come on we don't discuss things here we just relentlessly attack each other while skirting the

jury system. Don't you go and try and actually engage in discourse.

[libodem]

76. .

[AnnieBW]

57. Not all religions

Just science-denying, bigoted, misogynistic religions.

[Lordquinton]

60. which ones would those be? nt

[d_legendary1]

121. Depends on which preachers you ask

I once attended a sermon where some preacher was saying that science attempts to trump the bible and used Genesis to prove science wrong.

First and last time I listened to that moron.

[Lordquinton]

125. I'd start with any that follow Abraham

And i mean follow in multiple meanings.

[d_legendary1]

176. Kinda sad because when God said be fruitful and multiply

He was talking to Abraham, not us. But hey, sex is good so...

[LostOne4Ever]

177. I would rather have cake

[center][/center]

[d_legendary1]

178. And Porn

but not at the same time.

[longship]

204. Come on! Porn cake is awesome!

[d_legendary1]

231. A friend of mine made a red velvet penis cake

complete with Nutella filling and strawberries! I'm not gay but that was some really good penis cake!

[Lordquinton]

180. He also told him to kill his son

I wonder what Isaac felt about his dad's new god.

[d_legendary1]

181. Pretty good since he accepted him and walked with him

Then had two sons, one of which who fucked over his brother. And God was cool with it. Seems like God loves his drama.

[Lordquinton]

183. I think they left some details out of it

Somehow everyone loving god even after he tries to kill em/kills their loved ones/ruins their life doesn't really add up.

[d_legendary1]

185. Most holy books do that.

We don't even know what Jesus did when he was a teenager. We don't know if he did sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll or if he was saving the world one cat off a tree at a time.

[NeoGreen]

172. Wouldn't it be easier for everyone...

...to list the ones that don't?

[AnnieBW]

182. I'm a Wiccan.

We believe in the concept of pantheism - the Deity (or Deities) are inherent in everything. No preachers, imams, or Holy Books. We do have priests and priestesses, but they are mostly self-defined.

[Humanist_Activist]

61. Any set of beliefs and/or ideology that encourages you to suspend or not exercise...

critical thinking on them is, ultimately, harmful. In turns credulity into a virtue.

[Scuba]

70. +1

[trotsky]

111. Well put. n/t

[trotsky]

110. When people elevate religion to "another way of knowing" that is on par with science, yes. n/t

[Jackpine Radical]

112. Instrumentally? Sometimes.

And sometimes it's neutral, and sometimes (e.g. enabling faith) it can be prosocial and helpful.

[struggle4progress]

115. For a man of his intelligence, he's surprisingly trite on this topic

I expect his writings on Drosophila are more interesting and original

[Jim__]

119. If only people were less superstitious

A brief excerpt from a column on Patheos:

A particularly salient reflection on this is provided in Cat’s Cradle. Here, a prostitute named Sandra is reflecting on a commencement speech given by the supervisor at a research lab that played a crucial part in developing the first nuclear bomb.

“He said he hoped a lot of us would have careers in science,” she said. She didn’t see anything funny in that. She was remembering a lesson that had impressed her. She was repeating it gropingly, dutifully. “He said, the trouble with the world was …”

...

“The trouble with the world was,” she continued hesitatingly, “that people were still superstitious instead of scientific. He said if everybody would study science more, there wouldn’t be all the trouble there was.”

“He said science was going to discover the basic secret of life someday,” the bartender put in. He scratched his head and frowned. “Didn’t I read in the paper the other day where they’d finally found out what it was?”

The column has a little bit more in the excerpt from Cat's Cradle. It's worth reading.

[Act_of_Reparation]

173. A very good read, actually.

Science furthers our understanding of the physical world, but it takes ethics to apply that understanding in a way that maximizes happiness for the greatest possible number of people.

That said, I don't think too many people would actually disagree there... except maybe Lawrence Krauss.

[longship]

205. Better yet, read "Cat's Cradle".

Certainly one of the best novels of the 20th century. And poking at religion was a Vonnegut speciality. That, plus a perverse sense of humor.

Anyway, anybody who could dream up Bokononism has my respect. (On second thought, that reminds me too much about L. Drunkard Hubbard.)

When will DU have a church of Bokononism group? Surely that is a sad omission here.

[Warren Stupidity]

207. I'd be delighted to sponsor a Bokononist Group.

Live by the foma that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy.

Although I suggest not offering any Bokonon prayers in the Prayer Circle as they are quite touchy about what religions get to pray there.

[longship]

208. Preach it, my friend, preach it.

Although no Bokononist would do such a thing.

Or, maybe one should just thumb ones nose to the universe. Yup! That's it.

My regards.

[Lordquinton]

209. Count my in

I fall asleep with a middle finger to the sky incase I don't wake in the morning. Fortunately we have no upstairs neighbors.

[Jim__]

216. By all means read "Cat's Cradle." And definitely read it with both eyes open. - n/t

[cleanhippie]

175. In ANY age, it's been demonstrated to be harmful.

[Freelancer]

184. When millions engage in something unhelpful, that can be seen as harmful

Religion is like a really big rock. It can be very useful. You can climb on top of it in a flood. You can huddle against it in a storm, cool yourself in its shade. It can be a landmark of your clan, and so on. The thing about really big rocks, though, is that they don't usually go anywhere. So, attaching yourself to one is an exercise in not going anywhere, which can be a worthy intention, I suppose -- just not for everyone.

Non-believers want believers to understand that no one is trying to take away your rock. We just feel compelled, from time to time, to point out that you have the option to walk away, even out of sight of the rock, and still be perfectly alright. It will be there when you get back.

That's all

[Arugula Latte]

197. Oh, and please stop trying to steamroll the rest of us with your rock.

[Yorktown]

198. After Hitchens's 'Portable Atheist', I present you with 'Portable Religion'

?width=400

[longship]

206. Hint: it still is a problem with Christianity.

Consider the GOP, a wholly religious cabal. I can hardly wait for the GOP Presidential Debates where they all trip over themselves to prove themselves "most godly".

Too bad there aren't any Scientologists or Bokononists amongst them... At least not yet. Sadly, Romney is apparently not running this time, so we don't get to make sacred underwear jokes.

Please! Let a GOP Scientologist run for POTUS! And please, let it be Tom Cruise! The clown car would then be perfect.

BTW, a great OP, and a great thread.
R&K

[HassleCat]

229. No need to harmonize

I know several religious believers who are scientists. They deal with the inconsistencies by shrugging them off. Religion involves faith, not proof, so religious teachings are accepted on faith alone. There is no problem as long as you accept that religion is for the purpose of saving your soul, telling you how to worship your God, etc. The conflict comes when some religious leader tells you to kill the unfaithful, pass laws against abortion, harass gay people, etc.

[Warren Stupidity]

230. besides ethics, religion conflicts with science and rational reasoning.

Where it does your religious scientist either compartmentalizes his religion, walling it off from the conflict, or compartmentalizes his scientific reasoning, walling it off from the conflict. In either case one or the other or both are compromised.