Do you believe in demons and angels?

[xfundy]

I promise I'm not trying to make fun. I once believed in them but no longer do, and NOT saying that my disbelief makes me superior or otherwise better than anyone.

I know a guy, believes in God, believes he saw "two little demons" but he's not a churchgoer and I doubt bothers to vote.

Just wondering how prevalent these beliefs are today. And maybe if anyone has seen either of these two extremes of the good/evil spectrum.

[bvf]

1. No.

And anyone who does is quite delusional, IMO.

[AtheistCrusader]

2. I don't believe in either.

Never have.

[safeinOhio]

3. No, never had any contact with either.

But, Santa brought me a train set once and I found some eggs the Easter Bunny left me, 60 some years ago.

[Skittles]

4. I have been called an angel several times

oh yes I have indeed

[Adsos Letter]

151. .

...um...

[Skittles]

152. for example, when I gave a homeless man a small bottle of Crown Royal with bow on Christmas Day

[Cleita]

185. That was angelic of you. And you probably got a lot of approval from the angels because of it. n/t

[Sherman A1]

5. Not necessarily, however

I will not discount that there is more going on than I or others can understand.

[AlbertCat]

210. I will not discount that there is more going on than I or others can understand.

Well.... nothing supernatural is required for that.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. I've seen demons!

But I was massively high on peyote.

[Hoppy]

7. --- then you 've never met my boss.

[xfundy]

13. Hey, I worked for that guy as well!

[cbayer]

8. No, just people that act like them.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. How does one act like non-existence? It Is A Mystery

[cbayer]

22. I was not being literal.

My new grandsons are angels. The bean counters at my health care plan are demons.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. Give it time.

[cbayer]

26. Lol, I know what you mean.

I raised boys and those angels turned into demons in a hurry. But it was temporary.

The health insurance company I'm not so sure about.

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. It's rather an American thing

In the UK, 25% believe in angels; 10% in demons: http://www.theosthinktank.co.uk/files/files/Reports/Spirit%20of%20Things%20-%20Digital%20(update).pdf

68% of Americans believe in angels (but only 47% "believe in Darwin's theory of evolution&quot : http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NewsRoom/HarrisPolls/tabid/447/ctl/ReadCustom%20Default/mid/1508/ArticleId/1353/Default.aspx

Not easy to find a recent American poll on demons that wasn't taken around Halloween - when it looks like a large number of Americans pretend they're in an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer when answering polls, and thus muddy the waters with their uncertain grasp of the difference between open fiction and their lives, which may or may not include invisible friends and enemies.

[xfundy]

14. The UK seems ahead of us in many ways.

[cbayer]

15. And there is little they enjoy more than being told so.

[edhopper]

10. I won't use the term believe

I don't accept their existence.

This points to one of the weaker arguments about religion.

"How can you be so sure there is no God when (some large percent) of mankind says there is.

Obviously a large group of people can believe in poppycock.

[hrmjustin]

11. I believe in angels but i have no firm belief on demons.

I really don't spend much time thinking of either.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. What reference source indicates one, but not the other ?

[hrmjustin]

18. I don't know what references you are talking about.

[AtheistCrusader]

19. The source of the concept.

Where do you get the idea the claims of existence for one is credible, but not the other O

[hrmjustin]

20. I don't really give it much thought.

[AtheistCrusader]

21. None required. Looking only for origin.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. Nothing?

Did you come up with the idea yourself then? Like, independent origin?

[hrmjustin]

25. I am saying i don't give angels and demons much thought.

[AtheistCrusader]

27. But you think one is real, and neutral on the other.

That thought had to come from somewhere

[hrmjustin]

28. And the angel of the Lord phrase appears in the bible.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. Anything about demons?

[hrmjustin]

30. Can't remember.

[AtheistCrusader]

34. Would it help you if I linked you some?

I would have guessed that a Christian would know more about the contents of the bible.

[hrmjustin]

35. I know the ones from the Gospel. look i just don't think about it.

[AtheistCrusader]

36. I don't understand why you don't seem interested in this subject.

[hrmjustin]

37. I really don't care about demons.

[AtheistCrusader]

38. if the source material you accept for the existence of other things is right, I would think

you'd be more interested, given they would be your enemy.

[hrmjustin]

39. You thought wrong.

[AtheistCrusader]

40. Out of curiousity, how much of the bible HAVE you read? Like, total percentage, cover to cover.

Rough guess is fine.

[hrmjustin]

41. The whole of the NT

About half of the old.

[AtheistCrusader]

43. Isn't the OT more or less the foundation upon which the NT is built?

If I only read the NT by itself, it would never have made sense to me. Is half of the OT enough for context? Feel confident about it?

[hrmjustin]

44. I am notbtoo concerned with the OT.

[AtheistCrusader]

45. What about the 33 separate references to demons in the NT?

[hrmjustin]

46. I am not concerned about it either.

[AtheistCrusader]

47. That is...

ASTOUNDING.

[hrmjustin]

48. Ok.

[gcomeau]

123. What I'm hearing throughout this thread from you is...

To paraphrase:

"I believe in the existence of an all powerful entity that created the entire universe and holds my eternal fate in it's hands, but I really can't be bothered to give things related to that all that much thought".


And this is why I don't take most people who say they believe in God seriously. Actions speak louder than words, and it's kind of hard to credit the idea that so many things that have to do with the most powerful entity in the universe that decides your eternal fate isn't sufficient to warrant your attention or concern... if you seriously believed it existed instead of just giving the idea lip service as a feel good activity.

[hrmjustin]

124. That is not what i said.

[gcomeau]

126. It's what you said repeatedly actually.

You kept getting asked about things clearly related to God and the Bible and your response, over and over and over, was "I'm not concerned with that" or "I don't care about that". For cripes sake you said it about the entire OT. The supposed history of your deity's interaction with humanity? Not interesting enough to warrant your attention?

So yeah, it is what you said.

[hrmjustin]

129. Actually if you really did read this you would know I was asked about Demons and angels.

Your concern is noted.

[gcomeau]

132. That's the *first* thing you were asked about.

Then in pursuit of your statement that you believd in angels but not demans you were also asked about the source material for adopting a belief in one and not the other, and specifically asked about the bible, and you continued your run of "not concerned" responses. To quote you DIRECTLY, typo and all:

"I am notbtoo concerned with the OT."

Then you were asked about all the references in the NT and your response was:

"I am not concerned about it either."


So yeah, I read the whole exchange. And now I'm left questioning... did you? Or were you just auto-replying to anything posted to you without bothering?

[hrmjustin]

133. And your problem is what?

[gcomeau]

134. This.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=204133

Which you would know if you were reading what you were replying to.

[hrmjustin]

135. And my answer is i did not say that.

Thanks for wasting my time.

[gcomeau]

136. Yes, and then I cut and paste direct quotes of you saying that.

Did you not read that either?

[hrmjustin]

137. Where did i say that i believe in a God that hold my faith in his hands.

Show me where i said that.

[gcomeau]

149. FATE. Not Faith. FATE.

And you cannot seriously be disputing THAT part. Any time you say you're a Christian (or any other religion that believes in a deity that offers an afterlife) you're saying that part.

[hrmjustin]

150. I don't care anymore.

Think what you want. I am to tired to deal with conversation.

My apologies for bailing out.

[gcomeau]

153. Seems to be a theme with you. -eom

[hrmjustin]

154. Say whatever you like about me.

Your not the first to do so and you won't be the last.

[gcomeau]

156. You were the one saying that thing about you.

Over... and over...

[phil89]

51. So you

really, truly believe in an all powerful omnipotent being who created humanity and then inspired a book to be written as his word... And you HAVEN'T read the whole thing? You're not serious right? How could you not have read it? Unbelievable

[hrmjustin]

52. His word?

I never claimed the bible was his word.

[xfundy]

49. Jesus sent demons into a bunch of pigs.

They drowned themselves in the ocean.

[hrmjustin]

50. Yes i remember.

[cleanhippie]

101. As he said, he just doesn't think about it.

Most would call that wilfull ignorance.

[AtheistCrusader]

105. Hard to argue with its effectiveness.

[cbayer]

32. I think that you, justin, are much more likely to see the good in people

and not the bad.

So it doesn't surprise me that this is how you feel.

And you don't have to justify it to anyone.

[hrmjustin]

33. Thank you.

[AtheistCrusader]

53. much more likely to see the good in people... and then BAN THEM

[cbayer]

55. No, he doesn't ban people who he sees the good in, he bans disruptors.

That's his job.

[AtheistCrusader]

56. "Safe havens are not designed to be launching pads for personal attacks and mockery of other DU mem"

"bers."


"lol not me." (In reference to rug mocking Heddi for getting banned in prayer circle)
"Good post." (In reference to rug specifying Yorktown as an exception for his Reconciliation thread.)

Be nice if he applied that itchy ban finger to himself.

[hrmjustin]

58. Huh?

[AtheistCrusader]

60. Exactly.

[hrmjustin]

62. So you have nothing. That is what i thought.

[AtheistCrusader]

68. or do you just think I have nothing?

[hrmjustin]

70. Ok lets start again.

What are you saying here. What claim are you making?

[AtheistCrusader]

73. That if you were a fair or impartial host, you'd have banned yourself already.

But, we've had this conversation before, and we know how it ends, so why bother objecting?

[hrmjustin]

74. And why would i have banned myself?

[AtheistCrusader]

76. Posting meta for one.

I guess you could change the SOP to 'nobody gets to post meta except me or my friends', and THEN it would be internally consistent.

[hrmjustin]

78. Whwt meta did i post?

[AtheistCrusader]

80. yes, ask me to link to self-deleted posts, very clever.

I take it all, back you ARE a clever man.

[hrmjustin]

82. I self deleted a post I thought might be hidden.

No one iz perfect.

[AtheistCrusader]

86. And the meta? Kentauros wasn't confused about rug's comment. You both laughing it up.

That's not how a mod gains control of a situation.


You banned me, for saying something nice about rug, when in the past, you in fact directly told me "Well be careful and enjoy." for expressing the SAME prayer/faith mechanism.

It is saying something nice about someone when you say I hope you feel better/calm when you come back. Sometimes people need a break. Sometimes it's a healthy thing. If you recall, he takes a break from DU for Lent on his own for at least the last two years. But no, you banned me for that.

But you'll laugh it up about Heddi's ban. No meta here, no sir. Definitely not perfect. That's true.

[hrmjustin]

90. I banned you for mocking rug.

[AtheistCrusader]

95. You sure seemed to think so.

If I had some mockery to say about it, there would be no guessing. Trust me.

[hrmjustin]

97. It was rather clear to me.

[AtheistCrusader]

98. So was your meta and allowance of other meta posts when Heddi was banned.

[hrmjustin]

100. You mean my op?

[AtheistCrusader]

103. No. Incidentally, this thread has now brought some of you and rug yucking it up in prayer circle, to

their attention.

One could even say you were laughing behind their backs.

[hrmjustin]

109. Call Amnesty International right now!

[AtheistCrusader]

110. Hey guys, this is a no meta zone! Also, this dude in another group sucks.

Classy.

[hrmjustin]

113. Classy? Look at your signature line and then talk to me about classy.

[hrmjustin]

115. When people come into the room to start in they will be banned.

[AtheistCrusader]

116. Unless they're your friends, or attacking people you don't like. QED.

[hrmjustin]

117. Why would a person who dislikes religion wantbto post in the prayer circle?

[AtheistCrusader]

118. Ah, while you're telling Starboard Tack he's banned too, you could ask him since he maintains that

atheists pray.

You and I already talked about the scope in which I observe this behavior.

[hrmjustin]

119. Why are you looking to get others banned from the prayer circle?

[AtheistCrusader]

120. I'm looking for you to be an honest, consistent and impartial host.

[hrmjustin]

121. The host of a safe haven is not impartial.

If you had a problem with me becoming a host you should have objected at my election thread.

[AtheistCrusader]

127. I was not aware of the election thread.

A safe haven host is not REQUIRED to be, but any host CAN be if they take their role seriously. If they don't want to provoke others, as your ban list has grown and grown. An issue with another safe haven you host.

Worse, you insist in the SOP that non-believers are also welcome, but in practice, most are not. That makes it just an outright lie.

[hrmjustin]

130. provoke? Who did i provoke?

[snooper2]

168. you BANNED my religion from the prayer circle

That wasn't very nice at all!

[hrmjustin]

170. And when did you convert?

[snooper2]

184. I was touched one night a few years back...

[hrmjustin]

186. Yet i never heard you mention it here on du.

[AtheistCrusader]

104. oh by the way, I did notice you locked that op to stop from having to ban Starboard Tack, another

bit of mod favoritism.

If you were consistent, you'd have banned him for calling us vermin. But hey, man, no meta. This is a NO META ZONE guys, for realz.

[cbayer]

63. Oh, please. People in glass houses and all that.

Disruption is disruption.

Those that want to play these games can have at it. They take their chances.

I don't engage in this bullshit and I have nothing more to say about it.

[AtheistCrusader]

66. Who lives in a glass house?

I've never been a mod at DU.

I have, however, been a mod elsewhere, and followed the established rules consistently.

[hrmjustin]

57. You can always just address me if you have something to say about me.

[AtheistCrusader]

59. But you didn't say it, so it wouldn't have made sense to respond to your post.

Have you ever looked back at your self-deleted posts in prayer circle and realized, you'd have banned someone else for those?

What's that like?

[hrmjustin]

61. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Provide some links.

[AtheistCrusader]

64. Sorry, I'm not your monkey. You know damn well what I'm referring to. I already linked one thread.

[hrmjustin]

65. So basically you can't back up your claim.

[AtheistCrusader]

67. I already linked you one thread.

Your deflection, it does nothing!

[hrmjustin]

69. Just looked through your posts and you have provided no link.

[AtheistCrusader]

71. Oh, you are right, I posted the verbatim text of one of your posts in that thread.

Excellent point.

Gee, which thread was Heddi banned in? So hard for you to recall, I think. Maybe if you REALLY concentrate for a while, something will come to you.

[hrmjustin]

72. Now try linking to it.

[AtheistCrusader]

75. You know full well what thread you banned Heddi in in the last 4 days.

[hrmjustin]

77. ok what about it?

[AtheistCrusader]

79. If you were consistent, you'd have banned Rug too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1225678#post5

Look at your self deleted post. Then look at you and kentauros yucking it up over Rug's joke (a meta attack).

You fake.


But we've already covered 'you're a shitty host' before, so nothing new here.

[hrmjustin]

81. I self deleted a post saying she was banned.

The fact is it is a believers safe haven.Don't like it not my issue.

You think i am bad put me on ignore.

[AtheistCrusader]

84. Hold on a second, your safe haven is for both, believers and non-believers. Shall I quote your many

many posts on that point? Because you have posted many many times that it is for both.

[hrmjustin]

89. Yes but disruption is not.

[AtheistCrusader]

92. I didn't make a disruptive post. Your reaction to it was certainly disruptive.

I've had many positive conversations with rug in the past, and I'd like to see that rug come back from his temp ban. That was a genuine post. There was nothing unusual about it.

your response to it was disruptive though, grant that.

You raise the point that it's a believers safe haven even though it is, per you, for both, and when I call you on it, you make it about disruption instead? That's called sleight of hand, and it's not very good sleight of hand.

[hrmjustin]

94. He did not agree and neither do I.

[AtheistCrusader]

96. Which brings us full circle to the quality of a fair and impartial host.

Which you are not.

[hrmjustin]

99. Non of the believers who post in there show no concern.

Skinner has not complained to me. And i sent him complaints about me in pms i got last week.

Yes i do send him complaints about the way i host. He can always remove me if he thinks i am wrong.

I know he saw todays thread because someone lost a jury against me 1 to 6.

[AtheistCrusader]

102. I can't parse that.

I also don't know what you mean by him actively looking at jury results, which I highly doubt. Do you have any idea how much shit is going on site-wide?

[hrmjustin]

108. .

Results of your Jury Service

On Tue Jun 9, 2015, 01:20 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

You most certainly did. You don't pray and you came in here to mock
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1225&pid=717

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Now the host is a mind-reader?

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 9, 2015, 01:32 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: trivial alert
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Ridiculous alert.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I can see where the host is coming from and I agree how it appears, but I don't think the back and forth is hide-worthy.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Mind reading is not a violation of DU community standards.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It has to do with sincerity. It is an assumption, yet most would agree that atheists don't pray, in any way, shape, or form. They also don't have beliefs beyond the physical universe, per the very meaning of the word atheist. Vote to leave.

[AtheistCrusader]

111. Well, you know it wasn't me then.

That said, I don't know what a 1-6 has to do with Skinner. The jury spoke. Done and done.

[LostOne4Ever]

12. The only angels and demons I believe in are the metaphorical kind

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]People who selflessly spend their time trying to help others are the only real angels.

And people like Duggars and Scott Lively are the only real demons.[/font]

[Agnosticsherbet]

31. I have seen no evidence of demons or angels, but I love reading

fiction where they appear.

[nil desperandum]

42. Nope

no more than santa and woodland fairies...

but it appears in this country I am not in the majority who believe in angels to the tune of about 2 out of 3 citizens...

[old guy]

54. Not at all.

[Yorktown]

83. For the discussion to be fruitful, could we define the terms?

Could someone please define
- angel
- demon

What are they? What are they made of?
How long do they live? Where?
What do they do?

And how do you know?

[xfundy]

88. Don't look at me.

I only believed when I was afraid not to. I guess they'd be spiritual things, either good or bad, never in between.

I learned a lot about demons from the Jack Chick tracts my mother used to hide around the house where I'd find them.

[Yorktown]

93. OK. So knowledge on angels and devils comes from SM comic books?

That helps

[randys1]

85. If there was ever a demon (and of course there isnt) it would be heroin or tobacco.

[HassleCat]

87. Very common belief

I used to work for a federal program that provided job training to young people. Some of the students had emotional issues, or used too much alcohol, or were involved with drugs. Occasionally, they would yell and scream about demons or monsters that were coming to get them. The staff believed the solution was to enlist the aid of Jesus to drive away the demons. Unfortunately, it didn't occur to them that some drug and alcohol counseling, or a little chat with a psychologist might be in order. Jesus seemed to provide some momentary relief, but no long-term solution was sent from above.

[xfundy]

91. Angels & demons are often depicted in movies.

That was a Federal program? TSK.

[PeteSelman]

106. Of course not.

But it would be awesome if they existed.

[Iggo]

107. Of course not.

Ridiculous.

[stopbush]

112. Nope. Childish bullshit.

[honeylady]

122. I believe in spirits

as I have lived in a haunted house for 25 years. Both my daughter and I have seen spirits in our home and all of us have experienced many, many inexplicable things in that last 25 years.

But as far as demons and angels go, I hope not (demons) and hope so for angels. All I know is that there is so much more to our universe than we'll ever know.

[edhopper]

125. If a rational explanation

could be shown to you that could account for those "spirits", would you still believe?

[kwassa]

128. Los Angeles Angels and New Jersey Devils

says something about both regions.

[Cleita]

131. Oh I do, but they aren't the mythological ones with wings and horns.

They are very real spirits that protect or destroy the world around us. I believe I have been saved from disaster and even death by some unknown unseen guardians several times in my rather long life. Some of the horrors we have seen in the world around us also have been inspired by some real evil entities as well, who protect their own as well. How else can you explain Dick Cheney? He doesn't even have the excuse of mental illness because he's quite sane and very evil.

[edhopper]

138. This just

excuses the evil and wrong humans do with supernatural nonsense.

[Cleita]

139. Oh no, the good or evil that people do are all on them.

However they attract the spirits who protect them because of their actions. Cheney has done all his evil himself, and by his own ideas and plans, but he walks free with a brand new heart, millions in blood money and plenty of guns to kill any poor innocent beast that gets in his way because he has attracted some of the basest beings to his hearth to use a metaphor. Those beings are protecting him from justice and a miserable death that heart failure and suffocation would have given him. But they can't protect him forever.

[xfundy]

140. Bingo.

"the Debbil made me do it!" Now all I have to do is go to church, then I can do it all over again, but better, and maybe not get caught.

[Cleita]

141. The devil didn't make him do it. He did it all by himself, but that devil took a liking

to him and keeps him from getting his just desserts for now. I don't believe in possession or the devil making anybody do anything. You decide for yourself your actions but you will attract bad spirits if you do evil things and they will hang with you just like the kind of friends you attract.

[edhopper]

142. there is less evidence for the things you speak of

than there is for God.
And there is zero evidence for God.

But I doubt there is anything I can say that would make you doubt these beliefs.

[Cleita]

145. No. My beliefs are mine and I hope you respect that.

I don't disrespect your skepticism. Your life experiences are different from mine.

[edhopper]

147. understood

Just know that in this forum, all beliefs are open to challenge and debate.

[Cleita]

148. I want the debate because people have been taught a lot of BS

about how the angels are. I don't even like that word but it's the one we have to work with in our language.

[edhopper]

157. What evidence do you have that angels

or demons (or the "spirits" they represent) are real?

Because before we can talk about what they are, we have to establish that they "are" at all.

[Cleita]

160. Evidence, like scientific evidence? None yet.

But until microscopes were invented we didn't see microbes, but we had circumstantial evidence because people and animals got diseases and doctors knew something unseen was responsible.

I don't know what they are, other than they occupy a plane of existence we haven't the tools to see...yet. I don't care for the terms angels and demons. I prefer spirits. Why they involve us in their affairs I don't know, but I'm pretty sure they do.

I could give you personal experiences but then that would be anecdotal and not acceptable for this kind of discussion.

[edhopper]

171. So there are no actions that can be accounted for

without adding these spirits?

Everything you ascribe to spirits can be explained in rational terms without the "other planes" and just the actions of people?

What circumstantial evidence is there that something other than "human nature" is involved?

[Cleita]

173. This is the religion forum isn't it?

I thought it was a place to discuss ideas about ethereal concepts. Instead I seem to,have wandered into the atheists and skeptics forum.

[edhopper]

175. It is a place to discuss religion

not a safe haven for believers. There are other forums for that.

As I told you, no belief here will go unchallenged.

Yes there is a heavy atheist / agnostic presence.

You are free to support your beliefs or not, no one demands you reply.

But here, statements of belief do not get a free pass because they are religious, quite the opposite.

That is one of the purposes of this Forum.

It is a no holds bared discussion forum.

[cbayer]

180. NO BELIEF WILL GO UNCHALLENGED!

That should be put onto a tee shirt or something.

BTW, there is a heavy atheist/anti theist presence here. Agnostics are not really welcomed by that group and are said just to be cowardly atheists and religious apologists.

What you describe as one of the purposes of the forum is actually not one of the agreed upon purposes of the forum. It is the purpose of a small and very loud group of people of which you consider yourself a member.

There are many others who would see the purpose of the forum quite differently.

[edhopper]

190. ONE of the purposes

not THE purpose

[trotsky]

202. Those are memes that you love to push, but there is really no evidence to support them.

Sounds to me you're just trying to make others look small so you can feel big.

[Cleita]

181. But I like challenge and I welcome it, but I resent being told my

religious ideas are invalid according to no other authority but YOU!

[edhopper]

191. I told you I find your beliefs invalid and challenge you to

back them up with something more than "it's what I believe"

I explain my problems with your beliefs. I issued no "authority" but rather gave you logical, rational reasons for my dismissal.

You have not given any good evidence except "I believe it" and what others believe is BS. Who is really invoking authority here?

Feel free to engage or ignore me.

[Cleita]

194. You just don't get it. This isn't science where empirical evidence is offered

because we haven't invented the microscope or telescope to prove it...yet. If it were, I wouldn't be posting here but in the science group. Now the OP asked a question. I answered yes I believe in angels and demons although I call them something different and they aren't the same as the Middle Ages concept many picture them as. So I don't have to prove anything until there is the means to do so. Therefore, it is a belief right now. You are free to believe in the Easter Bunny too.

[edhopper]

196. For the purposes of this discussion

I am asking you to offer proof that they even exist. Because it really doesn't matter how you describe a non-existence entity.

Your microbe analogy is feeble. People got sick from unknown sources.

There is no evidence of action by angels or demons that cannot be accounted for without them unnecessarily thrown into the mix.

Occam's Razor and all.

[cbayer]

176. Lol, it should be retitled Religion cage match -

where believers and nonbelievers are pitted against each other in endless and extremely tedious battles that never lead to any increase in either understanding or resolution.

If you haven't checked it out, look into the interfaith group, though it is not fully free of this battle either.

Or stick around and just choose who to engage with.

I welcome you.

[edhopper]

178. Not untrue

[cbayer]

183. If it were up to you, that is exactly what it would be.

Truly unfortunate. For a site that has such positive goals, the degree of negativity, back biting and divineness is alarming.

Thanks for being a part of it!

[edhopper]

188. Some see it as unfortunate

some might see it as one of the few places this type of discussion goes on.

Tomato / tomato.

[cbayer]

201. What type of the discussion?

The type of discussion where liberals and progressives are peeled off because they also have religious beliefs?

There are lots and lots of site for attacking believers simply for being believers. There are very few where people come together ideologically despite differences in beliefs.

Yes, I think it's really unfortunate that this is one of the 1st when it could be one of the 2nd.

Keep your freaking tomato. It's rotten.

[edhopper]

206. the interfaith group is for that

very few places where believers and non believers have open debates.

[cbayer]

209. You are technically correct but you have the power to make a place better or worse.

[edhopper]

211. But as we established

I like what this place is.

You have your own agenda, I don't ascribe better or worse to either way.

[Yorktown]

256. You appear to confuse discuss and attack

Discussing religion as in debating why people believe, not in blindly accepting people's faiths

(or that would be the end of discussion)

The interfaith forum is apparently the place where people of different faiths can congratulate each other for the mere fact of believing, even if their beliefs are different and eventually contradictory (Jesus wasn't resuscitated for Muslims)

[Yorktown]

254. There would be no 'tedious battle' if theists had evidence for their claims

Until then, it sounds reasonable that questions should be asked about their beliefs.

[cbayer]

182. Please be aware that edhopper represents only his own POV which may be shared by

some others who come to this group, but by no means all of them. He describes what he wants this group to be, but that desire is not shared by others, including myself.

[edhopper]

189. absolutely

I described what goes on here and that he/she was free to take part and reply or not.

No one is forced to do, or not do anything here.

But it is important to know it is not a safe haven group.

[cbayer]

203. No, you described a part of what goes on here that you love and promote.

Lucky you have a safe haven where you can go back and high five people who agree with you.

[edhopper]

205. I think you are splitting hairs

my reply was a direct answer to a post about this.

I never said that was all that was here.

But it is here, whether it distresses you or not.

[cbayer]

208. It distresses me.

It distresses me that a member came in here, thought that this was an OP posted in good faith, answered honestly and got this kind of shit in return.

That distresses me.

I love a good debate, but I hate bullying.

[edhopper]

212. I did nothing but challenge some irrational ideas

from a member who claimed what others believed as BS.

I think I was more cordial and respectful than that. I just didn't let unsupported answers go unchecked.

You say you accept beliefs being challenged.

But here you clearly find it troublesome. Your responses don't jibe with that acceptance.

[trotsky]

216. But cbayer, you routinely jump on newbies who come in here with good faith questions...

and chide them for not toeing the line you'd prefer. What gives? Why the double standard? That's what distresses me. You don't get to control what this forum is. Stop pretending as if you do.

[truebrit71]

218. "I love a good debate, but I hate bullying." Really?

When did that start?

[cbayer]

219. It's always been that way.

Say? Looks like you've been earning a lot of medals! Congratulations. It's kind of like being in the cub scouts, huh?

[edhopper]

220. Show me where I bullied

Clieta?

Show me where I wasn't responding to what was actually posted?

[cbayer]

222. I hate bullying. Whether Cleita felt bullied by you is up to her.

She told you she resented being told that her religious ideas were invalid according to no authority but you.

She told you repeatedly that she had no proof or evidence, yet you continued to demand it.

You called her beliefs irrational, even though there is nothing to substantiate your judgement of her rationality.

I dunno. Maybe thats bullying and maybe it's not.

[edhopper]

224. She continued to respond

I said her beliefs were irrational, and they were, not that she is. Let's not keep rehashing that argument.

I claimed no authority, she was the one who claimed to know other beliefs BS. I simply did not let her statement of belief go unquestioned

I repeatedly said she could ignore me.

You dislike that here, but that is what goes on, and hopefully will continue to.

No maybe about it. Again you resent challenging beliefs. the lip service you give to it is transparent.

Your attempt here to shut off challenging beliefs says it all.

[cbayer]

226. Why do you hope that it continues to go on?

What do you hope it accomplishes?

It's divisive. It makes people feel bad and unwelcome. It may even cause others to develop a negative attitude towards atheists.

To be honest, that last part I believe is actually the goal of some of the people that participate here, but that's another story.

Beliefs should be challenged when they harm others. What about her beliefs harmed anyone?

Your attempt to challenge any belief whether it is harmful or impacts on others in any way is really what says it all. The lip service you give to only challenging specific beliefs that impinge on the rights of others is what is totally transparent.

But I have no doubt that you will continue to promote that here and then high five it with the team. It serves a personal purpose.

[edhopper]

233. Yes

there is no harm when people believe in demons.

Sure about that?

When it comes to the irrational, I don't believe in live and let live.

I have seen the damage irrational beliefs have wrought to often.

And I enjoy debating religious beliefs. No one is forced to do it.

You have the Interfaith Group for the forum you want, this is a different place, thankfully.

[cbayer]

237. Interfaith was a group started by atheists in order to make a point.

It's all part of the meta-drama which is really what drives most of what happens in this group.

Shame really, though I do have some great conversations with a wide variety of people, including you…. much of the time.

[edhopper]

239. So why isn't it

the group that you wish this was?

[cbayer]

242. I don't think you know what I would like this group to be.

It's very clear what you want it to be and it seems to be working out just great for you.

[edhopper]

243. I am basing it on what you have said.

enlighten me then...

[cbayer]

249. I would like it to be a place where we discuss the intersection of politics, culture and religion.

I would like it to be a place where we recognize that there are common enemies, particularly from the religious right, and join together to expose them and fight back against them.

I would like it to be a place where people weren't mocked for having religious or spiritual beliefs or not having any such beliefs.

I would like it to be a place where those that express bigotry and intolerance to others based on religion or lack of religion were shouted down instead of shouting everyone else down.

Perhaps I am completely off base. Perhaps this is not the place for me anymore. The degree of personal animosity takes it's toll. The rewards are very few.

[edhopper]

250. I think there are other forums that do that

including GD at times.

I don't think this is that place.

[Yorktown]

257. You wish a positive appreciation of all religions which is impossible

If only because religions are statements of exclusive truth.

Jesus "I am the way" vs Muhamad "I am the last Prophet", something as to give.

(assuming either claim has any speck of truth to start with)

[skepticscott]

266. Sorry, but that's baloney. Interfaith was started by the religionists here

because they said they wanted a place to have serious discussions of "faith", "belief" and whatever else without what they considered disruption by those who might inject inconvenient truths into those discussions.

You've peddled this silly falsehood over and over, but no one with an ounce of sense would believe that atheists started a group with this as its statement of purpose:

A safe haven that provides opportunities for people of all faiths, spiritual leanings and non-belief to discuss religious topics and events in a positive and civil manner, with an emphasis on tolerance. Criticisms of individual beliefs or non-belief, or debates about the existence of higher power(s) are not appropriate in this group.

You and your cronies started that group to try to make a point, and you're annoyed that you failed. You're annoyed that the Interfaith Group is basically a one man show, with no meaningful discussion at all going on. You're annoyed that the prediction of people you don't like that Interfaith would turn out exactly as it has turned out to be absolutely accurate and that it's been exposed that the people who said they wanted it actually have nothing to say to each other. So you've concocted this fantasy (which, sadly, you may even have convinced yourself is true) that Interfaith was started by atheists who wanted it to fail.

Ask MADem about that, why don't you?

[xfundy]

267. I wondered what was going on.

Nice till she finds something impure, or whatever, then stomps around.

[trotsky]

271. Thank you for setting the record straight, scott.

Pretty pathetic how cbayer demonizes a group of DUers like that, with a completely false accusation.

[skepticscott]

288. The main host of Interfaith says you're wrong

if you have a problem with the hosts of this group, please take it up with us directly, and not to the general populace. We are, after all, the ones that requested and started the group.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12647029#post2

[truebrit71]

221. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

...

[cbayer]

223. To paraphrase edhopper: I guess this passes for intelligent argument.

Frankly, I don't think it makes a whit of difference whether you are a theist or an atheist, this is about as sophisticated as the conversation gets with you.

[A HERETIC I AM]

231. What I find fascinating about these types of exchanges.....

is that there is often someone decrying the tone or substance of the exchange, yet participates in it wholeheartedly.

It's part of the reason I so rarely post in this forum, yet read it regularly.

It's silly to try and convine your audience that you somehow dislike these conversations. It is clear to even the casual observer of this forum that you relish them with great vehemence.

FWIW, Cleita has been a member of this board for a very long time, just as you have.

I'm betting she can handle whatever is thrown her way.

[cbayer]

234. So judgmental, er I mean insightful. Is that why you got your badge?

I don't have an audience and am not trying to convince anyone of anything, other than the person that I am having a conversation with.

I am sure that Cleita can handle herself and so can I. Some here are part of a club. Neither Cleita nor I have that advantage, so once in a while I will stand up for someone I feel is being pushed around.

That ok with you?

Now, did you have anything to say about the substance of my arguments or did you just want to bless me with your analysis of my personality?

[edhopper]

236. In the conversation between Cleita and me

do you want to count the posts that interjected.

You vs the "club" members.

[img][/img]

[cbayer]

238. I have no idea what you are getting at.

[edhopper]

241. It seemed like

you were saying there was a "club" here that ganged up on Cleita.

I am saying it was a one on one conversation with you doing most of the interjections.

Not that you are perfectly in your rights to do so.

But she wasn't being pushed around by any "club". She was asked questions by me she could not answer.

[cbayer]

246. I don't think there is a club that ganged up on Cleita.

I think she doesn't have a club to push back like some people do.

Sorry I was not clear.

[edhopper]

252. Okay

thanks.

You say club, I say like minded people.tomato/tomato

[A HERETIC I AM]

245. Don't kid yourself, madam. It isn't a blessing in any way, shape or form.

I am making an observation, that's all.

I and many others see it all the time, not only from you, but lots of posters in here.

I don't have an audience and am not trying to convince anyone of anything, other than the person that I am having a conversation with.

Just this time? Or all the time? Either way, that's a silly assertion and if you typed that with a straight face, kudos!

I am sure that Cleita can handle herself and so can I. Some here are part of a club. Neither Cleita nor I have that advantage, so once in a while I will stand up for someone I feel is being pushed around.

Aren't you just the noble one, eh? Again, if that was done with a straight face, you're on a roll.

That ok with you?

Most things are. I'm a hedonist. Whatever pitches your prop!

Now, did you have anything to say about the substance of my arguments or did you just want to bless me with your analysis of my personality?

Am I to understand that you have a checklist of appropriate response subject matter I need to be aware of? The substance of your arguments are consistent, repetitive and frankly, banal. You want people to see you as some sort of peacemaker or referee or voice of reason. "Leave them be!" "People can believe what they wish" etc. etc. ad nauseum.

And yes, you do have an audience and yes, you do have a little club, whether you like to think of it that way or not. It's just really little more than the average, run of the mill echo chamber.

I'm not trying to analyze your personality. I honestly don't have the slightest interest in doing so. Endeavors such as that in this context would bore the living hell out of me.

I'm sure you mean well, but the fact is, to me, it appears you are just someone that has internet access and entirely too much time on your hands

[cbayer]

248. I am quite certain this will earn you another badge.

If you ever want to discuss something substantive, just let me know.

[truebrit71]

240. "this is about as sophisticated as the conversation gets with you"

Staying classy as ever I see...

But no, you've NEVER bullied anyone on this site, in this very forum....ever....

[beam me up scottie]

261. So it's okay for cbayer to insult people and call them names.

But we're the "bullies".



And she never fails to disappoint when it comes to hypocrisy and double standards:

I would like it to be a place where those that express bigotry and intolerance to others based on religion or lack of religion were shouted down instead of shouting everyone else down.

1) the only religious people DU atheists are intolerant of are religious bigots

2) it sure sounds like cbayer wants the people she disagrees with to be bullied

[Lordquinton]

227. U jelly?

Yea you jelly.

[Warren Stupidity]

258. Another day another broken irony meter.

[trotsky]

158. What makes you qualified to dismiss what others believe as "BS"?

Perhaps their life experiences are just different from yours.

[Cleita]

162. I don't dismiss anything, but I do know the brainwashing when I see it.

I mean do you still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny? To reduce spirit beings to caricatures of bird winged creatures with harps floating on clouds or goat like things with horns, pitchforks and tails is no different. Also, what makes you qualified to dismiss what I believe?

[trotsky]

163. What makes you qualified to dismiss others' beliefs as "brainwashing"?

Perhaps they just had different experiences!

It appears you have different standards for yourself than you do for others. Fascinating.

[Cleita]

165. Oh, you do believe in the Eastee Bunny. So sorry you are offended.

Mr. Bunny has never manifested himself to me though so I do dismiss him, however, if you have experienced him, I respect your belief.

[edhopper]

172. That the evidence for your spirits is exactly the same

as that for the Easter Bunny.

I dismiss all beliefs unless there is something to back them up.

[Cleita]

174. Okay, but may I direct you to the science forum. Eom

[edhopper]

177. I am in the right forum to say that.

May I direct you to the Interfaith Group or Prayer Circle were your irrational "spirit" ideas won't be challenged.

[Cleita]

179. So what's your religion that is so correct that it excludes any other?

Why is your religion right and everyone else's wrong? Why would you assume that I'm into praying?

[edhopper]

192. I have no religion

or beliefs, I am an atheist. There are things I accept or not, based on the evidence or lack there of (in a nut shell).

[Cleita]

197. Exactly, but you do have a belief in atheism because no one has ever been

able to scientifically disprove the existence of a creator anymore that they have been able to prove the existence of that entity.

Here is a scientific fact for you though. Although we have five senses to perceive this world, there are many things we can't perceive that exist. We know by other means that they exist like neutrinos. Have you ever seen, heard or felt a neutrino? I don't think so.

[edhopper]

198. Do you have something that shows that angels and demons even exists

or any actions that can account for them that isn't explainable without them.

Closer to the Ether and N-Rays than neutrinos it seems.

I have no belief and i have plenty of evidence that a God does not exist. Of course then we must designate what we mean by God. But it is very clear that there are no supernatural agents at work in the Universe.

[Cleita]

199. No, I agree there are no supernatural agents. They are very much a part of

this planet and the universe at large. We just haven't figured out how to "see" them yet. However, their presence is often felt by those who have come in contact with them unknowingly, I being one of them, but that is anecdotal and very personal.

One of these days maybe even you will be a recipient of such an event that can't be explained any other way, or maybe you already have and dismissed it as illogical.

[edhopper]

200. Give on example of something not being explained

"in any other way".

This is far different than simple not yet explained, or not enough information for an explanation.

Give me an example of one of these "other plane" agents acting here, for which there is no rational explanation?

[Cleita]

204. Whatever. This post is getting too long and too hard to load.

Have a good day.

[edhopper]

207. Okay

you as well.

[A HERETIC I AM]

229. There is no such thing as a "belief in Atheism"

It's like saying I have a belief in baldness.

[Yorktown]

259. But neutrinos can and have been proven and detected

Thats what people do at the SLAC, Fermilab or LHC.

No such equipment exists to detect angels or devils.

(not even a theory of devils and angels exists)

[phil89]

276. Atheism is a rejection of a claim

it is not something one believes in. Get the basics right.

[Yorktown]

255. We can and should discuss respectfully, respecting each other.

But beliefs should not be respected as if they were immune to criticism.

It's the whole point of a forum: to discuss ideas. Discussing = criticizing.

In the example here, you 'believe' in forces for which the qualificatives angels and demons seem appropriate to you. These concepts are meaningless to me. I should therefore enquire why you believe in such concepts when you have no evidence for them.

[xfundy]

144. Nahhh. I think Cheney just did it because

he's an asshole who wanted to get rich and used the government to accomplish that, while having fun killing others.

[Cleita]

146. You aren't wrong.

But not everyone gets the life pass he's getting. Think about it.

[trotsky]

159. When I think about that, it tells me just that the universe is a neutral thing.

Some good people do well. Some bad people do well. Some good people suffer. Some bad people suffer. In other words, shit happens. Exactly the kind of universe we would expect to see if there were no angels, devils, gods, or demons. Just stuff that happens. Interesting, no?

[Cleita]

161. If stuff just happened, it would follow a logical order for good or bad but it doesn't.

Look around you and see that beings occupying the same space have different outcomes in their lives. Much of it depends on the choices they make, but even good choices can have adverse outcomes. Why?

[trotsky]

164. Not true at all. If stuff happens, it just happens. Doesn't have to follow any order.

"...even good choices can have adverse outcomes. Why?"

Why not? Again these are precisely the kind of events we should expect to see in a universe that has no supernatural agents playing with it. Good people suffering, bad people prospering. And vice-versa. No rhyme or reason, at least none that is consistent.

[Cleita]

166. See this where your perceptions have been formed by previous myth tellers.

You are imposing your prejudices on me on something that is frankly very hard to explain. But when you arrive with your preconceived notions you come across as closed minded.

[trotsky]

167. LOL, OK.

It is good that you and you alone are free from influence by the "brainwashed" myth tellers and their "BS."

At least you have absolutely no preconceived notions and are as open-minded as can be! I bow to you.

[Cleita]

169. LOL at you too. Congratulations for being able to be so smug because you obviously

are a god and know everything.

[xfundy]

143. Based on answers to this thread

It looks like those who believe in Angels (almost none believed in demons, except for the obvious explainable demon-like jerks, and I concur), found their belief in Angels less through bible study and more through childhood indoctrination or basically going along with the crowd.

While it's a given that most Christians never actually read the bible, a great many atheists and agnostics have read it cover to cover, to see what they were missing that would convince them to believe it's infallibly true. Both angels and demons are mentioned many times in the text if one could be bothered to actually read it.

I don't understand the reluctance of those who engage in "Bible Study" to actually read it for themselves, both OT and NT, as I did several years ago while searching for answers to my own questions. Those who claim to live their lives based on it should, I would think, read it, not just memorize a few verses that you've decided fit your worldview.

The other obvious benefit to reading the whole thing is to be able to counter those who read it in hateful ways. Most haters can spew chapter and cherry-picked verse but many who find love in the same scriptures can't even counter them directly.

That's pathetic.

To paraphrase Abe Lincoln, referring to the civil war:

Both read the Bible day and night. One sees black; the other, white.

[still_one]

155. hmmmmm, many republicans today are demons

[DeadEyeDyck]

187. Do you believe in atoms? Sub-atomic particles?

[edhopper]

193. Please,

don't go there. It is really a foolish argument.

[xfundy]

247. Air? Wind? Were you there?

I take it your comment's a "yes" vote for both demons and angels. Thank you for participating.

[Htom Sirveaux]

195. As physical, self-aware entities with wings or horns or what-have-you?

No.

As metaphors for or visionary expressions of the moral quality of thoughts/cultures, sure.

[AlbertCat]

213. Which angels?

Hoyot Ha Kodesh?

Ophanim?

Evelim?

Hashmallim?

Seraphim?

Malakim?

Elohim?

Bene Elohim?

Cherubim? or

Ashim?

[xfundy]

214. The ones that dance on the head of a pin.

Do all those mix or do they discriminate at those dances? And is the band also on the same pin, or relegated to the pincushion?

Anyway, if there's that many kinds, they must be true.

[cbayer]

215. "I promise I'm not trying to make fun."

What a bunch of hogwash.

[xfundy]

225. Oh, please.

The OP was sincere. If I comment on something as silly as how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, it seems reasonable to recognize its silliness. Scold away, scold.

[cbayer]

228. I do not believe that the OP was sincere.

And your responses confirm that.

I'll scold all I want when it's warranted, particularly when some one posts something in bad faith.

[xfundy]

232. Believe whatever you like, Scold.

As someone who looks for something to get PO'd at, then climbs up on their own pedestal ...

Never mind, it would do no good.

[beam me up scottie]

264. She also bullies people by trying to shut down conversations.

At least you didn't get a warning posted in your thread:

cbayer (145,524 posts)

Message to all those who have recommended this:

There is not one scintilla of data presented by this author to substantiate the claim that "christians are leaving the faith in droves". Not one.

The inability of the average web reader to actually get past headlines and be able to analyze information is probably one of the most dangerous trends in the world right now. People will believe anything they are told if it suits their agenda.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=194979

[Warren Stupidity]

268. "I'll scold all I want when it's warranted" and "I hate bullying"

Do you see the problem with those two statements?

[rexcat]

217. Angels no,

demons yes since the republican party comes under the heading of "demons" but you forgot about witches! I do believe witches are referenced in the christian holy book.

[Faux pas]

230. Nope

but, I do believe in good and evil.

[xfundy]

235. Yes.

I think the Devil and Angels were invented as part of the story-telling to personify good and evil. The devil was one of god's favorite angels and rebelled. God could have killed Satan, but didn't.

[edhopper]

244. Epicurus

wondered about that.

[AlbertCat]

272. I do believe in good and evil.

Those are subjective calls. What's good for some might seem evil for others. There are no defined lines.


That's why I think Abrahamic theology is childish and useless.

Try the Tao (more philosophy than theology)... Balance and unbalance...yen and yang....

A much more accurate description of how things go.

[Faux pas]

273. I'm a recovered catholic,

now atheist, who looks to the universe and all of nature for my 'spiritual' health. I try at all times to be in a peaceful, loving and joyful state of mind. It's not 100% (probably 95.2), but it works pretty well.

[AlbertCat]

274. I try at all times to be in a peaceful, loving and joyful state of mind.

Live long and prosper..... seriously.....

[Faux pas]

275. Thanks AlbertCat

same to you.

[rock]

251. Atheist

But thanks for asking. I always enjoy being asked my opinion.

[xfundy]

253. Agnostic.

You're welcome.

[LostOne4Ever]

269. Agnostic Atheist!

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal] This has been an interesting thread, thank for starting it [/font]

[beam me up scottie]

260. I don't know why people think only a few extremists believe in demons.

Most Americans 18-29 Years Old Believe in Demon Possession, Shows Survey

While only 44% of Americans over 65 years of age surveyed by PPP believed in demon possession, 57% of Americans 47-65 did and, among the youngest group surveyed, Americans 18-29, 63% believed in demon possession.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-wilson/most-americans-1829-years_b_4163588.html

And more Americans believe in angels than climate change:

7 things Americans think are more plausible than man-made global warming
Seventy-seven percent of the country believe in angels. Only 40 percent concede climate change is a reality

1) 77 percent of Americans believe in angels.

Not only did this AP/GFK poll in 2011 find that more than three out of four Americans believed angels literally exist, but so do more than four out of 10 of those who never attend religious services. A poll taken five years earlier found that 81 percent of Americans believe in angels, essentially meaning the number had gone unchanged.

http://www.salon.com/2014/12/20/7_things_americans_think_are_more_plausible_than_global_warming_partner/

[xfundy]

262. Scary.

[beam me up scottie]

263. Terrifying.

Good op, xfundy.



Ignore the accusations about insincerity from a certain ex-mod.

She still thinks she can shut down any conversation she doesn't approve of.

[xfundy]

265. Thanks.

I had no idea it would get so many posts, arguments and school-marming.

[LostOne4Ever]

270. And here I thought my generation was getting rid of these type of superstitions

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Here is hoping they mean in the metaphorical sense[/font]

[beam me up scottie]

277. My s/o's son doesn't believe in god but he does do demons.

Along with other assorted woo, gives his grandmother heart palpitations.

She's a devout baptist and actually bribed him to get baptized again.

[haikugal]

278. That's depressing...seriously.

How can people believe things like this? Woo, lot's of woo and very little thought required. This can't all be church taught, so where is it coming from...or is it all church?

Very sad.

[beam me up scottie]

279. Probably mostly from religious leaders.

Good thing they can spread their lunacy far and wide on teh interwebs, eh?

[haikugal]

280. Yeah..just like television was going to be a teaching tool.

It never occurred to us to ask "teaching what?". I'm always looking up things on the web, I can't be so unusual...can I? The web is great fo research, everyone knows that. So what's up with this nonsense?

Even Oprah does it...

We're a culture of fear and laziness it seems. We'd rather believe that by shear force of will (wishing) we can make reality behave the way we choose. There are people in my ex's family that believe the books in my library are demonic...gah!

[beam me up scottie]

281. Well our very own cbayer said this about fairies in another hate on Dawkins thread she started:

cbayer (145,549 posts)

18. Sure it's enough. It's enough for Dawkins and for you and for many others.

He can reject all the supernatural claims he wants and he can see wonder in his own unique way.

But that is not what this is about. This is about understanding that some people have a much different take and taking the time to understand why that is, instead of just dismissing everything that doesn't jive with your own world view.

It's about understanding the Dawkins not believing in the fairies at the bottom of the garden is as legitimate as believing in the fairies.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=197118


Of course I prefer Douglas Adams to cbayer:

[haikugal]

282. Douglas Adams for sure....

Beaver cheese!

[beam me up scottie]

283. And not just any beaver cheese...

[Yorktown]

284. Is the moon actually made of cheese?

Just asking.

[beam me up scottie]

285. A moon made of NBC is as real as the fairies in your garden.

[xfundy]

286. I wish I had some fairies in the garden

They could take care of the weeds.

[beam me up scottie]

287. Nice.

Put the little suckers to work!