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cbayer

(146,218 posts)
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 11:31 AM Jun 2015

Is Richard Dawkins destroying his reputation?

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jun/09/is-richard-dawkins-destroying-his-reputation

The scientist and bestselling writer has become the face of a new crusading atheism. But even his closest allies worry that his online provocations do more harm than good



Richard Dawkins at home in Oxford. Photograph: Graeme Robertson

Sophie Elmhirst
Tuesday 9 June 2015 01.00 EDT

In Dublin, not long ago, Richard Dawkins visited a steakhouse called Darwin’s. He was in town to give a talk on the origins of life at Trinity College with the American physicist Lawrence Krauss. In the restaurant, a large model gorilla squatted in a corner and a series of sepia paintings of early man hung in the dining room – though, Dawkins pointed out, not quite in the right chronological order. A space by the bar had been refitted to resemble the interior of the Beagle, the vessel on which Charles Darwin sailed to South America in 1831 and conceived his theory of natural selection. “Oh look at this!” Dawkins said, examining the decor. “It’s terrific! Oh, wonderful.”

Over the years, Dawkins, a zoologist by training, has expressed admiration for Darwin in the way a schoolboy might worship a sporting giant. In his first memoir, Dawkins noted the “serendipitous realisation” that his full name – Clinton Richard Dawkins – shared the same initials as Charles Robert Darwin. He owns a prized first edition of On The Origin of Species, which he can quote from memory. For Dawkins, the book is totemic, the founding text of his career. “It’s such a thorough, unanswerable case,” he said one afternoon. “[Darwin] called it one long argument.” As a description of Dawkins’s own life, particularly its late phase, “one long argument” serves fairly well. As the global face of atheism over the last decade, Dawkins has ratcheted up the rhetoric in his self-declared war against religion. He is the general who chooses to fight on the front line – whose scorched-earth tactics have won him fervent admirers, and ferocious enemies. What is less clear, however, is whether he is winning.

Over dinner – chicken for Dawkins, steak for everyone else – he spoke little. He was anxious to leave early in order to discuss the format of the event with Krauss. Though Dawkins gives a talk roughly once a fortnight, he still obsessively overprepares. On this occasion, there was no need – he and Krauss had put on a similar show the night before at the University of Ulster in Belfast. They had also appeared on a radio talkshow, during which they had attempted to debate a creationist (an “idiot”, in Dawkins’s terminology). “She simply tried to shout down everything Lawrence and I said. So she was in effect going la la la la la.” Dawkins stuck his fingers in his ears as he sang.

Krauss and Dawkins have toured frequently as a double act, partners in a global quest to broadcast the wonder of science and the nonexistence of God. Dawkins has been on this mission ever since 1976, when he published The Selfish Gene, the book that made him famous, which has now sold over a million copies. Since then, he has written another 10 influential books on science and evolution, plus The God Delusion, his atheist blockbuster, and become the most prominent of the so-called New Atheists – a group of writers, including Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris, who published anti-religion polemics in the years after 9/11.

more at link
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Is Richard Dawkins destroying his reputation? (Original Post) cbayer Jun 2015 OP
Destroying his reputation? Not at all. Jackpine Radical Jun 2015 #1
How was he being an intolerant jerk? Goblinmonger Jun 2015 #3
I believe in respecting others' beliefs and leaving them alone Jackpine Radical Jun 2015 #18
Brilliant tymorial Jun 2015 #27
Oh please...do enlighten us with your list skepticscott Jun 2015 #56
Please reread my post. tymorial Jun 2015 #61
If you want to deflect by nitpicking, fine skepticscott Jun 2015 #63
There you go again, putting words into other people's mouths. Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #92
Yeah edhopper Jun 2015 #94
Nothing wrong with challenging religious beliefs Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #193
It'd be sad skepticscott Jun 2015 #98
Prego! Manco un secondo ci voleva. Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #104
Seems to be taking a lot longer than that, Tack skepticscott Jun 2015 #109
un angelo con le corna edhopper Jun 2015 #112
Davvero! Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #121
What would that overlap be? trotsky Jun 2015 #59
As I pointed out to the other respondant to my reply tymorial Jun 2015 #62
I asked you a question. trotsky Jun 2015 #64
I'd say in his case, there probably is skepticscott Jun 2015 #65
It's all about triangulation. trotsky Jun 2015 #66
Or to accuse the other skepticscott Jun 2015 #68
I see our rather outraged friend skepticscott Jun 2015 #97
Those whose only goal is to attack religion have no interest in reading comprehension Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #102
Sorry, Tack...your buddy has fled skepticscott Jun 2015 #106
It's almost like they're vermin? truebrit71 Jun 2015 #126
I dunno. What do you think? Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #134
I personally wouldn't call anyone 'vermin'... truebrit71 Jun 2015 #137
Deep and absolute sense of righteousness. tymorial Jun 2015 #163
Here or back, you've still fled from the important issues raised skepticscott Jun 2015 #165
as long as those beliefs don't cause them to do harm to others. AlbertCat Jun 2015 #72
Well, everyone's wrong some times, and this is one of yours. mr blur Jun 2015 #139
But is what he has built his career around starting to crumble? cbayer Jun 2015 #9
biology? Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #14
So by that logic, you're going to start posting about the pope and his reputation, right? trotsky Jun 2015 #15
What does the pope have to do with this story? yeoman6987 Jun 2015 #51
Everything. n/t trotsky Jun 2015 #52
Or nothing yeoman6987 Jun 2015 #55
You are most certainly entitled to your opinion. trotsky Jun 2015 #57
True. Have a great day. yeoman6987 Jun 2015 #60
The pope is the center of the universe for theophobes and belligerent atheists Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #93
Yes edhopper Jun 2015 #95
He's pretty cool with everyone, actually. Not just gays. Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #108
So, so cool edhopper Jun 2015 #111
Being opposed to same sex marriage does not make one a homophobe Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #164
Early returns are running strongly against your assertion skepticscott Jun 2015 #166
It makes you a bigot. Same as if you were opposed to interracial marriage. Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #167
Yeah, edhopper Jun 2015 #168
No, actually, it is not the same thing Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #186
So far 96% disagree with you. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #184
new meme try edhopper Jun 2015 #96
Right? truebrit71 Jun 2015 #113
That's not true and you know it. But nice deflection try. Goblinmonger Jun 2015 #99
Apparently a "tolerant" atheist skepticscott Jun 2015 #101
That's why so many in here like him. Goblinmonger Jun 2015 #103
My wife? And you talk to me about deflection? Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #105
How is that deflection? She posted this OP. Or did you miss that reality? Goblinmonger Jun 2015 #110
It's almost like there edhopper Jun 2015 #114
Like how anti-atheists always bring up Dawkins Lordquinton Jun 2015 #117
Well, there you go Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #120
Utterly amazing Lordquinton Jun 2015 #135
Which direct quotes? Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #138
Edhopper literally just posted his anti-gay marriage quote Lordquinton Jun 2015 #146
So, is that a quote of Ed or Francis? Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #170
So now that you have been shown several direct quotes Lordquinton Jun 2015 #169
Which direct quotes? Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #171
"a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God." beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #173
"At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance" beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #174
"and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God." beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #175
"The family is threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution... beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #176
As much as we may disagree with him on this Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #187
Denying someone their human rights because he believes they're inferior does make him a bigot. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #189
He doesn't just believe they're "inferior" skepticscott Jun 2015 #200
Nope. Tack says religious homophobia isn't really bigotry. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #205
Don't botherr edhopper Jun 2015 #172
Tack has to pretend the pope's not a bigot. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #178
It's not like he can use the excuse skepticscott Jun 2015 #201
Oh lots of people are reading this exchange. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #204
Which direct quotes? Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #185
Your joking, right? Lordquinton Jun 2015 #190
The jury has spoken....... davidpdx Jun 2015 #197
"Being opposed to gay marriage does not make someone a homophobe or bigot" Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #140
Seriously Rob H. Jun 2015 #147
Depends on the textbook edhopper Jun 2015 #149
You want bigoted homophobic quotes? The pope's or yours? beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #151
Daym Lordquinton Jun 2015 #153
Oh, I'm just getting started. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #156
Now I understand why Tack thinks skepticscott Jun 2015 #154
Apparently he's ignored all of the previous posts about pope homophobe. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #157
Wow! Well done BMUS, thanks for the clarity! haikugal Jun 2015 #177
Thanks, haikugal! beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #179
Good job! Take no prisoners! haikugal Jun 2015 #181
Those links are good to have handy whenever people are singing the pope's praises. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #182
"Pope Francis: Kids Must Have Moms and Dads" beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #155
Pope Francis Against Gay Marriage, Gay Adoption beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #158
Why would I vilify atheists? Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #188
See your last post where you lashed out at atheists for calling out your homophobic comments: beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #191
Quite an imagination you have there BMUS Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #192
Did you vote in the GD poll? And defend religious homophobia in the thread? beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #194
I do not defend homophobia or bigotry of any kind. Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #195
As you can see I'm not the only one who thinks homophobic behaviour makes one a homophobe: beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #196
No. Only 5 were wrong. Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #202
According to the definition at religoustolerance.org both you and the pope are homophobic. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #203
You are correct about one thing Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #206
I am not your "fan" and I don't find your defense of religious bigotry the least bit amusing. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #207
Au contraire dear BMUS Starboard Tack Jun 2015 #208
Now you're saying that people who are opposed to interracial marriage aren't bigots. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #198
Pope Francis’ new clothes: Why his progressive image is white smoke and mirrors beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #159
Pope's Shocking Hitler Youth Comparison beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #160
'If You Oppose Equal Marriage, You Are a Bigot' beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #199
But is what he has built his career around starting to crumble? AlbertCat Jun 2015 #74
That's so cute! You think he built his career around genetic biology. cbayer Jun 2015 #77
He hasn't done any evolutionary biology in over 35 years. AlbertCat Jun 2015 #81
Plus you know, like lecturing at Oxford, some sort of backwater has been unknown school. Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #82
He's still an intolerant jerk. AlbertCat Jun 2015 #71
"Crusading" even Goblinmonger Jun 2015 #2
Ruh roh AtheistCrusader Jun 2015 #5
Is he going to take over St John's title of Moorslayer? Goblinmonger Jun 2015 #7
Why is his choice of protein of any interest? AtheistCrusader Jun 2015 #4
Chicken eatin' asshole. Goblinmonger Jun 2015 #6
His views on vegetarianism and his own choices of diet have cbayer Jun 2015 #8
I tagged it for later review and stopped reading there. AtheistCrusader Jun 2015 #10
Hope it is good busy and not bad busy. cbayer Jun 2015 #13
"admiration for Darwin in the way a schoolboy might worship a sporting giant." Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #11
But...but...he's a big poopy head Goblinmonger Jun 2015 #12
I saw that too edhopper Jun 2015 #16
Stupid scientists anyway pokerfan Jun 2015 #17
A hodgepodge article lacking in both style and substance Yorktown Jun 2015 #19
K&R! hrmjustin Jun 2015 #20
It's long but a really good overview of his life up to this point. cbayer Jun 2015 #21
So you understand that this is basically a reverse argument from authority right? Promethean Jun 2015 #22
Irrelevant. It's a chance to post something negative about DAWKINS!!!111!!!! cleanhippie Jun 2015 #23
There are some poor posters here skepticscott Jun 2015 #24
Doesn't matter pokerfan Jun 2015 #25
Reputation among whom? edhopper Jun 2015 #26
Or those that approach him with a certain level of critical thinking. cbayer Jun 2015 #28
you think I was being edhopper Jun 2015 #29
So I looked up bianary, because I didn't know what it meant. cbayer Jun 2015 #30
spellink alwaz bad on tablet edhopper Jun 2015 #32
How could you say the article was just petty crap? cbayer Jun 2015 #33
I am not the only one we with this opinion edhopper Jun 2015 #38
Yep. I wonder what they all have in common. cbayer Jun 2015 #42
Good critical reading? edhopper Jun 2015 #44
That's one possibility, but odds are against it. cbayer Jun 2015 #48
Clearly. I mean, everyone else who doesn't see things your way must be stupid, right? n/t trotsky Jun 2015 #53
Stupid, or big, bad meanies Yorktown Jun 2015 #85
Vermin! haikugal Jun 2015 #180
That comment was hurtful Yorktown Jun 2015 #183
But i think he needs to rethink his path. AlbertCat Jun 2015 #76
I agree. That's is a remarkable path and he deserves nothing cbayer Jun 2015 #79
Post removed Post removed Jun 2015 #87
His path toward the invisible and immaterial, I suppose? Yorktown Jun 2015 #86
I'd love to point out where this article is wrong tkmorris Jun 2015 #31
spot on nt snagglepuss Jun 2015 #34
Spot on what? cbayer Jun 2015 #36
She isn't criticizing him at all. She is merely submitting an analysis of who cbayer Jun 2015 #35
A) I did read it. Every word tkmorris Jun 2015 #37
You so misjudge me and I am sure you have your reasons, but this is really about you, not me. cbayer Jun 2015 #41
How can so many people "misjudge" you, cbayer? trotsky Jun 2015 #54
You're telling others to not be judgmental? Lordquinton Jun 2015 #91
And to think I was so worried about who would step up to post malarkey articles about Atheists Heddi Jun 2015 #39
That's a long time to spend on the island of misfit toys Major Nikon Jun 2015 #83
It's like 1.5 lents Heddi Jun 2015 #84
... trotsky Jun 2015 #100
His last peer-reviewed scientific paper was published over three decades ago struggle4progress Jun 2015 #40
I still think he has performed an important role and, in the end, will be honored for that. cbayer Jun 2015 #43
What door is that? struggle4progress Jun 2015 #45
Instead he frittered away his time skepticscott Jun 2015 #47
I think he performed an important role for the normalization of atheism cbayer Jun 2015 #49
That comment is unsubstantiated Yorktown Jun 2015 #50
The atheisms of Marx, Nietzsche, and Freud were influential long before Dawkins appeared; struggle4progress Jun 2015 #58
I don't disagree that they were all influential, but Dawkins made atheism cbayer Jun 2015 #67
Atheism has never been skepticscott Jun 2015 #69
I agree. We should leave the antagonistic hate crusades to religion.. truebrit71 Jun 2015 #119
What door? What role? Yorktown Jun 2015 #46
Destroying his reputation..... with whom? AlbertCat Jun 2015 #70
Do you include Dennet and KraUss in that group? cbayer Jun 2015 #73
Why did you feel the need to insult AlbertCat with that label? trotsky Jun 2015 #75
I did read this junk. AlbertCat Jun 2015 #78
You didn't read it. It is a very positive, almost adoring account of his life cbayer Jun 2015 #80
It helps to read the material before spouting the dogma... Yorktown Jun 2015 #89
Ah yes, but you see, that is totally different... truebrit71 Jun 2015 #115
Post removed Post removed Jun 2015 #88
Holy moly, I think you've nailed something there. trotsky Jun 2015 #90
That got hidden Lordquinton Jun 2015 #107
Extremely soft call by the jury... truebrit71 Jun 2015 #116
Jury members often read the post edhopper Jun 2015 #118
Or maybe the jury saw it for what it was. hrmjustin Jun 2015 #123
Obviously not... truebrit71 Jun 2015 #125
They disagree. Obviously! hrmjustin Jun 2015 #128
Some can't stand being called on their behaviour Lordquinton Jun 2015 #133
How dare you cbayer! Have you no shame! hrmjustin Jun 2015 #122
So now atheism is a cult? truebrit71 Jun 2015 #124
Did i say that? no. hrmjustin Jun 2015 #127
Stop putting words in your mouth? These words Justin? truebrit71 Jun 2015 #129
"So now atheism is a cult?" hrmjustin Jun 2015 #130
"The cult of Dawkins" truebrit71 Jun 2015 #131
So is dawkins the leader of Athiests? hrmjustin Jun 2015 #132
Nice try. But you fail. Again. truebrit71 Jun 2015 #136
Well, yeah you did Curmudgeoness Jun 2015 #141
The cult of personality. hrmjustin Jun 2015 #142
No, your attempt to run away from what you said is dishonest... truebrit71 Jun 2015 #143
You take care of yourself. hrmjustin Jun 2015 #144
I always do. truebrit71 Jun 2015 #145
What's really hilarious is that this is a very positive article about Dawkins. cbayer Jun 2015 #148
. hrmjustin Jun 2015 #150
Is that anything like the Christian Cult of Human Sacrifice? beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #152
Jesus had some pretty harsh things to say about hypocrisy Mariana Jun 2015 #161
Oh yes he did, lots of things: beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #162

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
18. I believe in respecting others' beliefs and leaving them alone
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 02:57 PM
Jun 2015

as long as those beliefs don't cause them to do harm to others.

I have personal objections to fundamentalisms of every stripe, and I find Dawkins to be a fundamentalist of the Reductionist Faith.

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
27. Brilliant
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 07:50 PM
Jun 2015

There is a tremendous overlap in behavior between fundamentalist christians and belligerent atheists.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
56. Oh please...do enlighten us with your list
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 09:23 AM
Jun 2015

Tell us how religious fundamentalists and atheists are alike....and then give us the honest flip side and tell us how they're different. I'm all agog to see what issues are of critical importance to you.

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
61. Please reread my post.
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 10:13 AM
Jun 2015

1. I clearly stated Christian fundamentalists and belligerent atheists. I never made a blanket statement about fundamentalism as it relates to the behavior of all religious believers regardless of their individual religion. The behavior of a fundamentalist of one faith may be completely different than a fundamentalist of another. This should be (no offense) rather obvious. As for your demands for a list and compare/contrast... why should I entertain someone who engages in emotionalism rather than objective consideration? I will state this: fundamentalist Christians engage in a behavior which places themselves above others. Belligerent atheists engage in behavior which places themselves above individuals who believe in religion. Both groups engage in harassing speech designed to shame the other into capitulation. Fundies tell non believers they are going to hell. They claim to be saved. Atheists tell religious individuals that they believe in "fairy tales" and are fooling themselves. They claim to be enlightened. The overlap is hubris and arrogance.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
63. If you want to deflect by nitpicking, fine
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 10:27 AM
Jun 2015

Deal just with Xstian fundies and atheists who won't STFU and deferentially mind their place.

If you were truly interested in "objective consideration" (sounds so noble, doesn't it?), you would have commented on which group is more likely to base their arguments on reason and objective evidence (and wouldn't have labeled doing so as "hubris" and "arrogance&quot . Not to mention commenting on which group is more likely to try to impose their views on others by government fiat or open violence. Conspicuously, but not surprisingly, you avoided both. Everyone reading this, including you, knows why.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
92. There you go again, putting words into other people's mouths.
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 10:56 AM
Jun 2015

Here, let me help you understand.

ATHEIST = someone who doesn't believe in god(s)

BELLIGERENT ATHEIST = asshole

Got it?

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
193. Nothing wrong with challenging religious beliefs
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 04:13 AM
Jun 2015

Everything wrong with some people being assholes. I am not pointing fingers. No need. They know who they are. And I have never seen you as one of them.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
98. It'd be sad
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 11:18 AM
Jun 2015

if you interrupted your Italian holiday just to post that. Is it really that boring where you are?

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
104. Prego! Manco un secondo ci voleva.
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 11:41 AM
Jun 2015

Dovresti considerarti molto fortunato avere un angelo guardiano come me.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
109. Seems to be taking a lot longer than that, Tack
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 12:03 PM
Jun 2015

Seriously, dude..you're spending your summer at a villa in the Italian countryside, and you'd rather spend time in here calling other people assholes?

Like I said, sad.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
59. What would that overlap be?
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 09:33 AM
Jun 2015

Are belligerent atheists beheading people?

Are they flying planes into buildings?

Are they trying to pass laws to restrict reproductive rights?

Please do tell.

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
62. As I pointed out to the other respondant to my reply
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 10:27 AM
Jun 2015

How hard is it to actually comprehend what you read? Is it so terribly difficult to take a deep breath and read something without allowing emotionalism to blind you to the words displayed on your screen? I clearly stated fundamentalist Christians and belligerent atheists. The last time I checked there were no Christians who flew planes into buildings nor are Christians beheading anyone. And yes, I'm well aware of the actions of Christians hundreds of years ago. I'm aware of the rape and pillage of Vikings. I'm aware of the enslavement of others by Roman pagans, Egyptian Pagans, Greek Pagans etc etc. I'm aware of native American tribes slaughtering each other. I'm well aware of the use of religion as justification for brutality and violence.
-
Again... Christian fundies and Belligerent Atheists. I will concede that I should not have used tremendous. You were correct to point out that atheists are not seeking to prevent people from having reproductive freedom. What I was considering was the "shaming" behavior of the two groups I mentioned. Both consider themselves morally superior and maintain a black and white/absolutist thinking mentality.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
65. I'd say in his case, there probably is
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 11:17 AM
Jun 2015

Since he's probably already realizing that the tired old "fundamentalist atheists are as bad as religious fundamentalists" claptrap gets chopped up an eaten for lunch here. I mean seriously..how many times are people going to post the same crap, thinking that it's something new and insightful, instead of tired and debunked?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
66. It's all about triangulation.
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 11:46 AM
Jun 2015

Some people need to justify their position by creating two equally bad "extremes" so they can put themselves right in the "sensible middle."

It always fails horribly, but that doesn't seem to bother the folks who do it. A typical reaction is to just label their critic an extremist. Ta da, problem resolved!

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
68. Or to accuse the other
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 12:42 PM
Jun 2015

of "broadbrushing". Another favorite tactic amongst the religionists. Lets them feel like they've taken the moral and intellectual high ground.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
97. I see our rather outraged friend
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 11:11 AM
Jun 2015

has quickly abandoned even the pretense of trying to back up his ridiculous claim.

What a shock.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
102. Those whose only goal is to attack religion have no interest in reading comprehension
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 11:34 AM
Jun 2015

You hit the nail on the head with "Both consider themselves morally superior and maintain a black and white/absolutist thinking mentality."
Fortunately, we don't have any Christian fundies around here, but we do have a handful of noisy BA's, who think that by teaming up, their bile becomes more palatable. I guess some folk are delusional, regardless of their religious beliefs.
The further they marginalize themselves, the more disconnected and extreme they become. I always find it fascinating when they defend their nastiness and intolerance with "well, at least we don't behead people". Which is mighty fucking big of them.

"Yes, we are really nasty, but those guys are even nastier". Well, that makes it all hunky dory, I guess.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
106. Sorry, Tack...your buddy has fled
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 11:54 AM
Jun 2015

Unable to defend his claim or to answer simple challenges posed in the name of "objective consideration".

But if you'd like to point to anyone here whose "only goal is to attack religion", feel free. Those who know you and your history of false, hyperbolic claims that you can't back up won't hold our breath, though.

And speaking of putting words in other people's mouths, pot, meet kettle:

"Yes, we are really nasty, but those guys are even nastier".

Own your own words, Tack..stop trying to put your bile in other people's mouths.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
134. I dunno. What do you think?
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:14 PM
Jun 2015

Seriously, what do you think? I wouldn't use the word vermin in this context. This is more about what these two extreme groups share, because of their extremism. They share a deep and absolute sense of righteousness. There are thousands of extremist groups and movements throughout the world. All but a handful are law abiding peaceful people. They do not behead and mutilate. Let them believe what they want, as long as they do nothing to harm others.

 

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)
137. I personally wouldn't call anyone 'vermin'...
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:23 PM
Jun 2015

...regardless of context...You from past experience obviously feel differently...

I like the idea of do no harm, but that leaves the definition of 'harm' open to (mis)interpretation...Some religionists claim harm is being done when same-sex couples marry, so it is not as cut and dried as that concept would appear...

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
163. Deep and absolute sense of righteousness.
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 09:22 PM
Jun 2015

This was my point. I read both of your replies. I thank you for them. The overlap boils down to moral superiority and posturing. I clearly touched a nerve with my comment. I shouldn't be surprised. I asked for it.
--
As for the "fled" comment by another... I did not flee. I was both busy and disinclined to continue a discussion that I felt would go no where.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
165. Here or back, you've still fled from the important issues raised
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 06:28 AM
Jun 2015

Namely, in what ways do the behaviors of Xstian fundies and so-called "belligerent atheists" NOT overlap, and how do those contrast with the areas in which you claim they do? Which group is more likely to base their attitudes and statements on reason and evidence? Can you address those points honestly and objectively, or are you going to continue avoiding them and look to Tack for support instead?

As far as "righteousness", try "rightness" instead. It is in fact possible for one person or one group to be more right than another, for one argument to be better supported than another, even though it is impolitic among certain cliques on this board to say so when it comes to religion. But the entire site is based on that principle when it comes to politics. Are we all "belligerent" Democrats?

And yes, I'm sure you were disinclined to continue a conversation that you could see was not going to go your way, but against your point of view is not "no where".

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
15. So by that logic, you're going to start posting about the pope and his reputation, right?
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 01:00 PM
Jun 2015

I mean, he's a disgusting homophobic bigot and his church is declining in the West. Significantly. But you're worried about Dawkins? Too funny.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
93. The pope is the center of the universe for theophobes and belligerent atheists
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 11:03 AM
Jun 2015

They bring him into every conversation, hoping that some of the shit they sling will stick. Critical thinking is passe for some of our more strident brethren.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
164. Being opposed to same sex marriage does not make one a homophobe
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 05:33 AM
Jun 2015

I strongly disagree with him on this, but I do not see him as a bigot. YMMV

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
166. Early returns are running strongly against your assertion
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 06:53 AM
Jun 2015

Last edited Fri Jun 12, 2015, 07:52 AM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026820527

Response to edhopper (Reply #111)
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 04:33 AM
Star Member Starboard Tack (10,835 posts)
164. Being opposed to same sex marriage does not make one a homophobe

I strongly disagree with him on this, but I do not see him as a bigot. YMMV




Can we expect you to persist in your deep and absolute sense of righteousness?
 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
167. It makes you a bigot. Same as if you were opposed to interracial marriage.
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 08:09 AM
Jun 2015

Your opinions on this issue are quite well documented here.

edhopper

(33,580 posts)
168. Yeah,
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 08:36 AM
Jun 2015

it's pretty much the definition.

Bob Jones University had nothing against black people, they welcomed them to the school, as long as they didn't date white people. But they weren't bigots.

Yes, it's the same damn thing.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
186. No, actually, it is not the same thing
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:15 AM
Jun 2015

Does opposition to the institution of marriage itself make one a bigot?

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
184. So far 96% disagree with you.
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 10:09 PM
Jun 2015

I wonder how many would think it's bigoted to compare same sex marriage to bestiality, incest and marrying one's bicycle?

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
99. That's not true and you know it. But nice deflection try.
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 11:22 AM
Jun 2015

The point is the your wife is so bent on trying to show Dawkins as an intolerant bigot that she doesn't even see the hypocrisy of her praising Pope Frank for every damn thing he does when Franky is many times the bigot one could ever argue Dawkins is.

And I don't know which is more insulting in your post: theophobes, belligerent atheists, or strident brethren. But given I and few others give a flying fuck about what you have to say, I guess it doesn't matter. It is kind of laughable that, in this group at least, you are what passes for tolerant "atheist."

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
101. Apparently a "tolerant" atheist
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 11:31 AM
Jun 2015

is one who calls other atheists who don't meekly mind their place and don't defer to religious nonsense and bigotry "assholes".

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
103. That's why so many in here like him.
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 11:39 AM
Jun 2015

Boggles the mind. Well, it doesn't, actually, when one has spent any amount of time in here, but...

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
105. My wife? And you talk to me about deflection?
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 11:54 AM
Jun 2015


I guess it is all about what description you identify with.
Of course, if you don't give a flying fuck, then why do you respond to what I say?

Is it a contest for you as to who is the biggest asshole or worst bigot, Dawkins or the Pope? If so, then you lose, big time.

Francis is head of an organization rooted in bigotry. He is making progress to reduce that bigotry, but has a long way to go. He is extremely popular in Italy right now, though the Vatican remains extremely unpopular. If Catholics can make this differentiation, then why can't the anti-theist bigots?

What excuse does Dawkins have for his bigotry? Besides an inflated ego, that is.
 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
110. How is that deflection? She posted this OP. Or did you miss that reality?
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 12:11 PM
Jun 2015

OK, let's go near the top of the guy you are defending. He said that gay marriage was "from Satan" and would "destroy the family." AND he is in a position of power to make things happen in regard to gay marriage and has made things happen in blocking it.

What has Dawkins said that was anywhere near close to that level of bigotry.

Franky is horrible. That your wife defends him and tries to deflect by saying Dawkins is a meanie and you now jump on the bandwagon of defending this horrible bigot does not make it any less true. Just because Frank is less of an asshole than some prior pope can still mean he's a bigoted asshole. And he is.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
117. Like how anti-atheists always bring up Dawkins
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 12:33 PM
Jun 2015

Except I'd much rather have Dawkins in my corner. Defending a conservative bigot like Francis must get exausting.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
120. Well, there you go
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 01:07 PM
Jun 2015

Enjoy making these comparisons, which have little to do with anything. I am defending nobody, btw. I have not seen or heard anything from Francis that implies any bigotry towards gays. Feel free to enlighten me. I have no love for Popes in general. This is the first one I have felt anything positive for. So don't worry about raining on my parade. Being opposed to gay marriage, something I strongly support, does not make someone a homophobe or bigot, just a little behind the times. The RCC, in order to survive, must change its stand on same sex marriage. I think Francis will take a run at this before his papacy is up. I wish him luck.

Dawkins, otoh, is an outspoken bigot, proud to conduct his war on religion. No hiding behind tradition or holy books for him. No siree! Just upfront slurring and insulting of those who dare to be intellectually inferior to those endowed with both a superior logic and an ever so polite English public school way of talking down to simpler minds. Funny how Americans lap that shit up.
Enjoy your corner time!
I shall be watching from a distance.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
135. Utterly amazing
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:15 PM
Jun 2015

did you say that with a straight face?

there has been ample evidence that the pope is highly bigoted against homosexuals, and is also rather misogynistic. You claim you've never seen any of that, but it's been posted here many times over the years. Funny how every misinterpretation of Dawkins gets the anti-atheists riled up about denouncing any form of hate and "proselytizing" but direct quotes from Frankie and you claim straight up "I never saw it"

I am in awe.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
138. Which direct quotes?
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:26 PM
Jun 2015

Did you post some invisible links or did you think verbosity would suffice? Feel free to send me some quotes. Then we can play quotes together. What fun!

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
169. So now that you have been shown several direct quotes
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 02:56 PM
Jun 2015

What do you have to say now? Revising your stance some?

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
176. "The family is threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution...
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 09:39 PM
Jun 2015

“The family is threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution of marriage, by relativism, by the culture of the ephemeral, by a lack of openness to life,” Francis said at a Mass in Manila. “These realities are increasingly under attack from powerful forces, which threaten to disfigure God’s plan for creation.”

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/pope-francis-suggests-gay-marriage-threatens-traditional-families

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
187. As much as we may disagree with him on this
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:19 AM
Jun 2015

it does not make Francis a homophobe or a bigot. He is still locked into a traditional catholic mindset. Hopefully, he will come around on this and join the 21st century. Otherwise his church will continue to wither.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
189. Denying someone their human rights because he believes they're inferior does make him a bigot.
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:29 AM
Jun 2015

It didn't matter why racists didn't want black people to eat at the same lunch counter and it doesn't matter why the pope doesn't think lgbt people deserve the same fundamental rights as heterosexuals or why women shouldn't have control over their own bodies.


"Tradition" is another excuse used by bigots of all kinds.


And anyone who thinks religious, racial and male privilege is a valid excuse for denying another's rights is a bigot as well.



 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
200. He doesn't just believe they're "inferior"
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 07:49 AM
Jun 2015

He's on board with black letter Catholic doctrine, which states that homosexuals are "inherently disordered".

But I'm sure our friend doesn't think that's bigoted either.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
205. Nope. Tack says religious homophobia isn't really bigotry.
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 08:16 PM
Jun 2015

Being opposed to marriage equality isn't about bigotry, it's about tradition, and social conventions, and all the other things religious bigots claim.

Just ignore the word 'equality' and it will all make sense.

edhopper

(33,580 posts)
172. Don't botherr
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 09:24 PM
Jun 2015

He's seen the quotes over and over. In this very thread and others.
He's just too belligerent to admit it.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
178. Tack has to pretend the pope's not a bigot.
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 09:49 PM
Jun 2015

If Francis' quotes are proof of homophobia, what do Tack's quotes say about him?

We're not doing it to enlighten him, we're just illustrating the difference between saying you care about lgbt rights and being an obtuse boob because he thinks this is funny.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
201. It's not like he can use the excuse
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 08:09 AM
Jun 2015

of having you on ignore, since he's responding to you directly.

I suspect asking over and over for quotes that are plastered all over this thread for him to see is just his way of trying to provoke certain people. But I'll let those reading the whole exchange decide who's being what here.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
204. Oh lots of people are reading this exchange.
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 08:10 PM
Jun 2015

If my pms are any indication we're not the only ones who are appalled by Tack's behaviour.

They realize he's using the same arguments as the religious bigots who claim religious freedom legislation is all about protecting "traditional" marriage.


davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
197. The jury has spoken.......
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 04:59 AM
Jun 2015

On Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:42 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Which direct quotes?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=204874

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This poster is straight up trolling, demanding links which have been supplied to him several times in this thread. This is no longer about religion, it's a violation of site policy.

This poster claimed he's never seen quotes from Pope Francis where he said homophobic statements. Several people offed up a half dozen or more links to such quotes and he's back claiming he doesn't see any and demanding them again.

One person he was replying to linked him some quotes, so he for sure saw them, and another poster linked to more, and some links with Starboardtack saying some homophobic stuff (which had been hidden).

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jun 13, 2015, 01:03 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Give me a break. Ignore him then. There is nothing about this that merits hiding.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I hope this goes 0-7. It is a dumb alert. You are wasting people's time with it. Good luck in life.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
140. "Being opposed to gay marriage does not make someone a homophobe or bigot"
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:55 PM
Jun 2015

yes it does. What an absurd assertion. Tell me, does being opposed to interracial marriage make one a bigot?

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
151. You want bigoted homophobic quotes? The pope's or yours?
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 04:42 PM
Jun 2015

I'm feeling charitable today, I'll be your huckleberry:

Pope Francis on gay rights: His 5 worst quotes

The new pontiff is being hailed as a fresh choice, but there's nothing new about his opposition to gay rights


Pope Francis has been praised for his humility (he picks up his own luggage!), his acceptance of other faiths (he won’t insult the Prophet Mohammed in public addresses!) and his “precedent shattering” name choice (more humility!).

But the pontiff who is being hailed as a “new direction” for the Catholic Church is the same-old brand of theological conservative who opposes the ordination of women, abortion and the fundamental rights of gays and lesbians.

In fact, then-Cardinal Jose Bergoglio was a major force against the 2010 move to legalize same-sex marriage in his native Argentina. Though he ultimately failed, Bergoglio used the full weight of the church to crush the measure.

Here, a collection of his very worst quotes on the issue.

1. A Senate vote on gay marriage is a destructive pretension against the plan of God

From a letter to the Carmelite Sisters of Buenos Aires on the perils of marriage equality:

“Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

2. Gay marriage will destroy the family

More from the same letter to the four monasteries of Argentina:

“The Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family… At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children.

3. Gay parenting is a rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts

Again:

“At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”

4. The political struggle against marriage equality is war

And finally:

“The bill will be discussed in the Senate after July 13. Look at San Jose, Maria, Child and ask them [to] fervently defend Argentina’s family at this time. [Be reminded] what God told his people in a time of great anguish: ‘This war is not yours but God’s.’ May they succor, defend and join God in this war.”

5. Gay adoption is discrimination against children

According to the National Catholic Reporter, Francis called gay adoption a form of “discrimination against children.” A comment that resulted in a public rebuke from Argentine President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who said that Francis’ remarks suggested “medieval times and the Inquisition.”

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/



Cardinal Bergoglio Hits Out at Same-Sex Marriage

A Jesuit cardinal has become the latest Church leader to speak out forcefully against a government’s push towards same-sex marriage, and has called on his nation’s contemplatives to pray fervently to prevent such laws.

According to an article in tomorrow’s L’Osservatore Romano, Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio, the Archbishop of Buenos Aires and Primate of Argentina, has said that if a proposed bill giving same-sex couples the opportunity to marry and adopt children should be approved, it will “seriously damage the family.”

He made the statement in a letter addressed to each of the four monasteries in Argentina, asking the contemplatives to pray “fervently” that legislators be strengthened to do the right thing.

He wrote: “In the coming weeks, the Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family…At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”

Cardinal Bergoglio continued: “Let us not be naive: this is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God’s plan. It is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a ‘move’ of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

The cardinal also noted that “today the country, in this particular situation, needs the special assistance of the Holy Spirit to bring the light of truth on to the darkness of error, it need this advocate to defend us from being enchanted by many fallacies that are tried at all costs to justify this bill and to confuse and deceive the people of good will.”

...

Cardinal Bergoglio said the bill will be discussed in the Senate after July 13. “We look to Saint Joseph, Mary and the Child Jesus and ask that they fervently defend the family in Argentina at this particular time,” he said. “We remember what God said to his people in a moment of great anguish: ‘This war is not yours, but God’s’: defend us, then, in this war of God.”

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/cardinal_bergoglio_hits_out_at_same-sex_marriage





Your disgusting homophobic posts:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=123723

Starboard Tack (10,698 posts)
112. And this has what to do with the RCC?

Why would any couple want to marry in a church that doesn't accept them? Makes no sense.
You really look for extreme situations to provide fodder for your hatred of religion. How about if I wanted to marry my bicycle, or my hamster and some church opposed performing the ceremony, would you be there, fighting for my rights?

I'm sorry, but religious rights and gay rights are not the same thing. I support both. Seems like you only support one. I know many gay couples, some who married in church and some at town hall and some couldn't care less about the institution of marriage.

I think your views are self centered. You want the world to adapt to your values, like the vegan who wants everyone to quit eating meat. What a boring world that would be.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=124676

Starboard Tack This message was hidden by Jury decision. Hide

176. Really? And how exactly did I do that?

You seem to confuse marriage and sexuality. The first is about a ceremonial binding of two entities. The second is about sex.
Who are you to tell me I cannot marry my dog, or my brother, or my mother, or my fucking bicycle, if I so wish. You don't get to decide these things. Sorry to disappoint you.

A Jury voted 5-2 to hide this post on Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:12 PM. Reason: This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=124679

Starboard Tack (10,698 posts)
177. No, I am not equating it with anything.

We should all have the right to marry whomever or whatever, provided it is consensual and conducted of sound mind.
Do you have a problem with sisters marrying each other? I don't. How about other family members? Do you draw lines and, if so, why?

My point, as I'm sure you are already aware, was about seeking approval from the RCC or any other church, to get married. That approval comes from within one's own conscience. Official approval comes from the state. Fuck the church and fuck those who want to paint me as an enemy of equal rights. Fuck the bigots and bullies and nasty hate mongering anti-theists. Fuck all fascists.

Happy Easter!


You're welcome.
 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
154. Now I understand why Tack thinks
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 06:17 PM
Jun 2015

you're his biggest supporter. Where else would he get this valuable information that he's been missing out on all of these years?

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
157. Apparently he's ignored all of the previous posts about pope homophobe.
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 06:25 PM
Jun 2015

Many of them from lgbt posters who shouldn't have their concerns dismissed by catholic apologists.

haikugal

(6,476 posts)
177. Wow! Well done BMUS, thanks for the clarity!
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 09:45 PM
Jun 2015

That's embarrassing. No doubt about it, homophobia.

None from Dawkins because he's an honest, liberal person with progressive values.

Imagine that!

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
155. "Pope Francis: Kids Must Have Moms and Dads"
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 06:22 PM
Jun 2015

Last edited Thu Jun 11, 2015, 07:02 PM - Edit history (2)

Pope Francis: Kids Must Have Moms and Dads

Pope Francis offered his sharpest critique against so-called nontraditional families on Friday morning, suggesting that the church must advocate for the rights of children to be raised "in the complementarity of the masculinity and femininity of a father and a mother."

The pope condemned child labor and child soldiers, and then said that "it is necessary to emphasize the right of children to grow up within a family, with a father and a mother able to create a suitable environment for their development and emotional maturity. Continuing to mature in the relationship, in the complementarity of the masculinity and femininity of a father and a mother, and thus preparing the way for emotional maturity," according to the Vatican Information Service

...

Back in December, Bishop Charles Scicluna of Malta said he discussed adoption of children by same-sex couples with Pope Francis. The bishop said the pope was "shocked" by the idea, and that he was encouraged to preach against the idea during Christmas services.

As archbishop of Buenos Aires in 2010, before he was elected pope, then-Archbishop Jorge Mario Bergoglio said children raised by same-sex parents were suffering a form of discrimination.

Speaking out against a proposed law to legalize same-sex marriage in Argentina, Bergoglio said, "At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”

http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2014/04/11/pope-francis-kids-must-have-moms-and-dads



Your accused atheists of "slinging shit" and said we were incapable of "critical thinking":

The pope is the center of the universe for theophobes and belligerent atheists

They bring him into every conversation, hoping that some of the shit they sling will stick. Critical thinking is passe for some of our more strident brethren.


What does it say about you that you are either so goddamned unaware of what the man actually said about lgbt people or that you knew about it and continue to defend him against his critics?

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
158. Pope Francis Against Gay Marriage, Gay Adoption
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 06:27 PM
Jun 2015
Pope Francis Against Gay Marriage, Gay Adoption

Pope Francis is a conservative who is anti-gay marriage and anti-gay adoption. He has described same-sex marriage as the work of the devil and a “destructive attack on God’s plan.” He has also said that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children.

In 2010, Francis championed against a bill for same-sex marriage and gay adoption, according to the National Catholic Register.

“[T]he Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family," he wrote to the four monasteries in Argentina. "At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”

He went on to describe it as a "‘move’ of the Father of Lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God" and asked for lawmakers to "not act in error." In John 8:44, the Father of Lies is the devil.

...

Graddick also specifically addressed Francis' previous comments about gay adoption being a "discrimination against children."

"The real discrimination against children is the pedophilia that has run rampant in the Catholic Church with little more than collusion from the Vatican," he said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-gay-marriage-anti_n_2869221.html



You said:

He's pretty cool with everyone, actually. Not just gays.


In what fucking universe is this pope "cool" with lgbt people?

Maybe you should oh, I dunno, listen to what they're actually saying about him instead of making shit up so you can vilify atheists.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
188. Why would I vilify atheists?
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:27 AM
Jun 2015

What a silly thing to say. Find me one quote where I do such a thing. I challenge close minded people, be they atheists or believers. I have little time for those who live in a black and white reality, fueled by their self righteousness.

We can strongly disagree with Francis on the issue of gay marriage and adoption. None of that makes him a homophobe or a bigot.

I do not defend his ideas on this subject. Hopefully, they wil change.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
191. See your last post where you lashed out at atheists for calling out your homophobic comments:
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:38 AM
Jun 2015
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=204597

I think it's obvious who the bigots are in this forum, Tack.

Like I said, you have a very good reason for turning a blind eye to the pope's homophobia.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
192. Quite an imagination you have there BMUS
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 04:13 AM
Jun 2015

Doesn't surprise me that you think Francis is a homophobe if you think I am. Do you ever read the nonsense you write?
Instead of reposting my posts, which I am grateful for, btw, why don't you address the points you disagree with? It may enhance your credibility.

Believe me, if anyone besides the intolerant theophobes and Dawkins groupies bought any of the bullshit you accuse me of, then I would be long gone.
But please keep posting my thoughts. I appreciate it. But try to be honest and show some integrity. Thank you.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
194. Did you vote in the GD poll? And defend religious homophobia in the thread?
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 04:21 AM
Jun 2015

If you're so sure that I'm in the wrong why not excuse his bigotry in front of a larger audience?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6820527

Right now 209 posters have voted that being adamantly opposed to same-sex marriage does make someone a bigot.

And why don't you compare same sex marriage to marrying your hamster, relative and bicycle while you're there?

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
195. I do not defend homophobia or bigotry of any kind.
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 04:34 AM
Jun 2015

The post you link to makes no mention of religion or Francis. Yes, I voted.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
202. No. Only 5 were wrong.
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:05 PM
Jun 2015

The other 2 realized my post was far from homophobic. Numbers don't make things right or wrong. They serve to illustrate how nuanced we are as a species.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
203. According to the definition at religoustolerance.org both you and the pope are homophobic.
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 08:04 PM
Jun 2015
The definitions that we use on this web site:

In our web site, we choose to define these words in terms of actions, not beliefs:

* homophobia as engaging in a behavior aimed at denigrating -- or restricting the human rights of -- persons who have a homosexual orientation and/or who engages in homosexual activity.

This behavior can take many forms: signing a plebiscite; sending an Email to one's senator or representative; participating in a demonstration; voting on a school board; knowingly voting to elect a homophobe; talking to coworkers or friends, delivering a sermon; etc.

The equal rights sought by gays, lesbians, and bisexuals (GLBs) include what many believe to be the most important human right: to be married; to have their spousal status recognized and registered; and to be assigned benefits and obligations by the government equal to those received by opposite-sex married couples. Other rights are protection from hate-motivated crimes, protection in accommodation, and employment security.

* homophobe as a person who engages in homophobic behavior.

* homophobic, an adjective referring to a behavior which attempts to maintain special rights for heterosexuals.



denigrate:

verb (used with object), denigrated, denigrating.

1. to speak damagingly of; criticize in a derogatory manner; sully; defame:

2. to treat or represent as lacking in value or importance; belittle; disparage:



You belittled and disparaged lgbt people's desire to marry the person they love by comparing it to wanting to marry your hamster, your brother, your mother and your "fucking bicycle".


And the pope's words also make him a homophobe, he favours restricting the human rights of lgbt people and considers them second class citizens.




But hey, don't listen to me or the five smart people who hid your post, take it from the 233+ tolerant people in GD, the authors of the articles I cited and the good folks at religioustolerance.org.

There is nothing nuanced about bigotry.

You and the pope are exactly what I said you were.



"At some point in our lifetime, gay marriage won't be an issue, and everyone who stood against this civil right will look as outdated as George Wallace standing on the school steps keeping James Hood from entering the University of Alabama because he was black."

― George Clooney

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
206. You are correct about one thing
Sun Jun 14, 2015, 03:03 PM
Jun 2015

There is nothing nuanced about bigotry. Your obsession with me is noted, but please leave both my hamster and my adorable bicycle out of the conversation.
Have a little respect for those who cannot speak for themselves.

I love the Clooney quote, btw., and I'm sure you are quite delightful irl. Be well and keep up the good work, especially the re-posting of some of my better posts. You are, without a doubt, my favorite fan

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
207. I am not your "fan" and I don't find your defense of religious bigotry the least bit amusing.
Sun Jun 14, 2015, 08:02 PM
Jun 2015

Last edited Sun Jun 14, 2015, 09:44 PM - Edit history (1)

You are using a human rights issue to smear atheists. It is shallow, opportunistic and contemptible.

I take this issue very seriously, your mockery of same sex marriage and dismissal of religious based bigotry proves I was right about you.

Your lack of compassion for lgbt people and support for their fight for equal rights is on record.

If I wouldn't get my post hidden I would tell you exactly what I think of religious apologists who feign concern for an oppressed minority while laughing at their struggle.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
208. Au contraire dear BMUS
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 12:22 PM
Jun 2015

You are using distorted logic to smear those atheists who embrace fellow liberals, regardless of their religious beliefs.
I do not laugh at the struggle of any oppressed minority, unless you consider anti-theist theophobes an oppressed minority. My compassion for the lgbt community is on record. Literally on record. I have fought for gay rights since the sixties and I am very pleased with the progress we have made on that front. But there is more work to be done. I am in Rome discussing this subject daily, with many people, both friends and strangers, many of whom are involved in this struggle.
Calling people like Pope Francis "homophobes" is counterproductive, imo. That does not make me an apologist for the position of the RCC on same sex marriage. It is an issue that the church needs to seriously rethink if it wants to survive. Personally, I have no interest in its survival.

I have little time for theophobic anti-theists who hide behind computer keyboards and attack fellow DUers by twisting their words in the hope that others will buy into their bullshit smearing of fellow atheists who do not share their disdain for people of faith. Come here to the streets of Testaccio and other neighborhoods of Rome and get involved with the struggle here on the ground before you accuse people of things you know nothing about.

I wish you well.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
198. Now you're saying that people who are opposed to interracial marriage aren't bigots.
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 05:00 AM
Jun 2015

You just defended racial and homophobic bigotry in GD:

Starboard Tack (10,845 posts)

143. No, of course not.

Close minded, yes. A bigot? No. You would have to expand on what you mean by "adamantly".
Marriage is a social convention, which means different things to different people. In itself, it is not a subject of bigotry.
Nice try though,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6826974








beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
159. Pope Francis’ new clothes: Why his progressive image is white smoke and mirrors
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 06:43 PM
Jun 2015
Pope Francis’ new clothes: Why his progressive image is white smoke and mirrors
Don't buy his populist rhetoric. The new pope is every bit the sexist homophobe as his predecessors

THE IMAGE OF Pope Francis is that he is a breath of fresh air, more progressive on social issues than his predecessor and a kinder, gentler pope. But when the facts are examined, you see that he is none of these things. There is an enormous disconnect between who the pope really is in terms of his policies and his public relations image, as crafted by the Vatican’s PR man, previously with Fox News. The current PR mission is all about reversing the incredible decline in fundraising under the last pope from the U.S. Catholic Church in particular. Pope Francis has made any number of statements that seem to indicate change and progress that are not reflected in policy. In fact, in the wake of such comments from Pope Francis, the Vatican often makes a point to explicitly state that no church policy has changed.

While the pope transmits a populist vibe—particularly about the economy— he is an old-school conservative who, despite his great PR, maintains nearly all of the socialpolicies of his predecessors and keeps up a hardline Vatican “cabinet.” He has done virtually nothing to change the policies of the church to match his more compassionate rhetoric. People excuse the pope, claiming that he doesn’t have much power to make changes, but this simply isn’t true. Further, it is ludicrous to suggest that a man who denies comprehensive reproductive health care (including all forms of birth control including condoms and abortion) and comprehensive family planning is a man who cares about the poor of this world. The bigotry of homophobia and sexism cloaked in religion are still bigotry and sexism. By giving to the church, American Catholics aren’t supporting “progress,” they are supporting oppression and in this way are complicit in the bigotry, sexism, and oppression of the church.

...

On January 17, 2014, Politico pointed out that in an interview given by the pope in August 2013, and published in September of that year, “Pope Francis said the church did not have to talk about gay marriage and abortion all the time.” And yet, “the very next day (after the interview was published) Francis condemned abortion as ‘unjust.’” Furthermore, after the interview was given, a week before its publication, the pope excommunicated a priest from Melbourne, Australia, Greg Reynolds, for advocating for female clergy and gay marriage. Pope Francis’s seemingly understanding words about gay marriage and abortion were sandwiched in between two events that completely undermined that message. Pope Francis is wise, though, to grab headlines that make him seem less homophobic than his predecessors, because in the United States, home of the church’s funding base, most Catholics support marriage equality.

...

Instead, the church has the same focus on dogma over helping the poor, the same oppressive views on women and homosexuals, and the same abhorrent behavior in response to the sex abuse scandals. There is zero flexibility on contraception, abortion, gay rights, women’s role in the church. Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI were at least honest salesmen; they told you exactly what you were getting. Pope Francis is much craftier than that. He uses his charm and humility (and a strong public relations strategy) to achieve the same goal as a used car salesman: to separate you from your money. American Catholics must put their faith and money where their mouth is if they want to see real change in the church. The idea that one can remain an active member of the church and expect ideological change only encourages the current pope to continue the practice of saying one thing and doing another. And why not? His numbers are up. The Catholic Church’s numbers are up. And it stands to reason that donations from American Catholics follow his favorability numbers and rise dramatically.

The church has a right to promote its beliefs and Pope Francis has a right to wage the best, smartest PR campaign he can—even if it is smoke and mirrors. But it’s wrong for a lazy media to tout Pope Francis as a reformer when he’s nothing of the sort. I hope the media will stop promoting Pope Francis as a liberal.

We should not allow comforting rhetoric to distract us from the actions of a church that continues to enact and enforce policies that hurt women, homosexuals, and the poor. We should look at the ways in which our dollars in the collection plate are used. For many years the prominent writer Anna Quindlen, a liberal feminist, remained a Catholic while publicly and vehemently disagreeing with the church on social issues. But in 2012 Quindlen was quoted as saying, “Enough … every time I sit in this pew I ratify this behavior, and I’m not going to ratify it anymore.” The great Catholic activist Dorothy Day said of people, “It is best to disregard their talk and judge only their actions.” Catholics would be wise to take her advice.

http://www.salon.com/2014/06/22/pope_franciss_liberal_reformer_image_is_all_smoke_and_mirrors_partner/



Funny how you "lap that shit up" and then defend it here.

You are unbelievably dismissive and apologetic about the homophobic rhetoric used by this pope and the RCC's continued vilification of lgbt people.


I have not seen or heard anything from Francis that implies any bigotry towards gays


Considering your own homophobic slurs about same sex marriage I can see why you're blind to his.

And why you like this pope so much.



beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
160. Pope's Shocking Hitler Youth Comparison
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 06:49 PM
Jun 2015
Pope's Shocking Hitler Youth Comparison

News emerged last week that Pope Francis has strongly criticized modern theories of gender, comparing them to the educational policies of Hitler and the destructive possibilities of the nuclear arms race.

In an interview included in a new book by Andrea Tornielli and Giacomo Galeazzi, Pope Francis: This Economy Kills, and released in part in the Italian daily La Stampa, Francis compared gender theory to nuclear arms: “Let’s think of the nuclear arms, of the possibility to annihilate in a few instants a very high number of human beings. … Let’s think also of genetic manipulation, of the manipulation of life, or of the gender theory, that does not recognize the order of creation.”

In using the term “gender theory,” Francis is denouncing the academic perspective that sees gender identities as a spectrum rather than as binaries. Gender theorists argue that the way people identify themselves is the result of social and cultural constructions of gender.

This has important ramifications for how we think about biology and sexuality. While the point may seem academic, its ramifications are not. The recognition that gender exists on a spectrum has provided part of the intellectual foundations for both LGBTQIA advocacy and women’s rights.

In the interview, Francis recalled how a public education minister was given funding for new schools for the poor only on the condition that school textbooks taught gender theory. Francis described this as “ideological colonization” and added that “the same was done by the dictators of the last century. … think of Hitler Youth.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/20/pope-gender-theory-like-nuclear-weapons.html


You said:

I have not seen or heard anything from Francis that implies any bigotry towards gays.


Of course a good liberal like you must certainly be aware of the fact that transgender people are victimized daily and often killed because of the hate generated by remarks like this.

So why are you asking for others to enlighten you?

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
199. 'If You Oppose Equal Marriage, You Are a Bigot'
Sat Jun 13, 2015, 05:33 AM
Jun 2015
If You Oppose Equal Marriage, You Are a Bigot

By definition, bigots are people with unshakable baseless prejudices. There is absolutely no reason, besides blind prejudice, to deny same sex couples the right to civil marriage.

You can use religious language to express your belief that gays and lesbians are disgusting second class citizens unworthy of rights that heterosexuals take for granted, but it doesn't make your position any less bigoted. Logically, there is no reason to put same-sex relationships on a lesser legal footing than opposite sex unions, unless you think there's something wrong with them.

You can insist you don't wish gay people any harm. Perhaps not. But there were lots of pro-segregationists who didn't wish ill upon black people, but still didn't want to drink out of the same fountains. They too were bigots.

You can point out that discrimination against gays and lesbians is a longstanding tradition, but that doesn't excuse your bigotry. If anything, it makes it worse. It was one thing to fear what the expansion of gay rights might do when gays and lesbians had no rights. Today we're decades into gay liberation and none of the dire predictions have come true. For example, children raised by same-sex parents are at least as healthy and well-adjusted as those raised by opposite sex parents—and no more likely to self-identify as gay.

***

Calling someone a bigot isn't a failure of tolerance. Nobody is challenging the right of the anti-equal marriage brigade to speak its mind. Nobody is trying to take rights away from them or relegate them to second-class citizenship. They have the Constitutional right to make up whatever crazy rules they want for marriage within their own religions. If only they were willing to extend the same tolerance to gays and lesbians.

http://bigthink.com/focal-point/if-you-oppose-equal-marriage-you-are-a-bigot
 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
74. But is what he has built his career around starting to crumble?
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:29 PM
Jun 2015

Genetic biology is crumbling?????


I don't think so.


Is it possible that a person could be so clueless as to not know what the person they are foolishly criticizing even does for a living?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
77. That's so cute! You think he built his career around genetic biology.
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:44 PM
Jun 2015

Had he stuck with that, he would be an esteemed professor in his field and nothing more.

He hasn't done any evolutionary biology in over 35 years. He will be remembered for his work over the last 30 years as an activist for atheism and a spokesman against religion.

Is it possible that a person could be so clueless as to not know what the person they are foolishly idolizing even does for a living?

Now, that last statement just doesn't feel very good, does it?

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
81. He hasn't done any evolutionary biology in over 35 years.
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 07:23 PM
Jun 2015

That's 1981...

Unweaving the Rainbow - 2000
The Ancestor's Tale - 2006
The Greatest Show on Earth - 2010
The Magic of Reality - 2012


All books on biology.

also (from Wiki): Since 1970, he has been a fellow of New College, Oxford.[27] He has delivered a number of inaugural and other lectures, including the Henry Sidgwick Memorial Lecture (1989), the first Erasmus Darwin Memorial Lecture (1990), the Michael Faraday Lecture (1991), the T. H. Huxley Memorial Lecture (1992), the Irvine Memorial Lecture (1997), the Sheldon Doyle Lecture (1999), the Tinbergen Lecture (2004) and the Tanner Lectures (2003).[11] In 1991, he gave the Royal Institution Christmas Lectures for Children on Growing Up in the Universe. He has also served as editor of a number of journals, and has acted as editorial advisor to the Encarta Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia of Evolution.

Is that "doing" biology?
or do you expect him to be doing graduate work.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
71. He's still an intolerant jerk.
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:19 PM
Jun 2015

He doesn't sound like an intolerant jerk in

"The Selfish Gene"
or
"The Blind Watchmaker"
or
"The Greatest Show on Earth"
or
"Climbing Mount Improbable"
or
"The Wonder of Reality"
or
"Unweaving the Rainbow"

or...
or....
or...

Perhaps you mean another Richard Dawkins. Maybe one you made up.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
7. Is he going to take over St John's title of Moorslayer?
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 11:45 AM
Jun 2015

What a bunch of in that article that Dawkins haters are just lapping up.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
8. His views on vegetarianism and his own choices of diet have
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 12:12 PM
Jun 2015

been issues of some debate.

Richard Dawkins: "I would like everybody to be a vegetarian... In 100 or 200 years time, we may look back on the way we treated animals today as something like we today look back on the way our forefathers treated slaves."


This dinner was held in a steak restaurant. Perhaps his choice of chicken was a compromise. Many vegetarians/vegans have taken him to task for his inconsistencies.

Or she was just padding the article.

Is that your biggest objection to the article, or did you stop reading there?
 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
11. "admiration for Darwin in the way a schoolboy might worship a sporting giant."
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 12:17 PM
Jun 2015

wow. Is the author even remotely aware that Darwin's Theory is one of the Great Works of civilization? Is the op aware of what sort of drivel this essay is?

edhopper

(33,580 posts)
16. I saw that too
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 02:01 PM
Jun 2015

maybe the best person in history for a budding British biologist to idolize.

Who should he David Beckham?

pokerfan

(27,677 posts)
17. Stupid scientists anyway
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 02:47 PM
Jun 2015

Why can't he be normal and worship LeBron James like everyone else?

What an odd article.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
19. A hodgepodge article lacking in both style and substance
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 04:26 PM
Jun 2015

Calling this an article would be too laudatory. A hodgepodge of impressionist colorful details.

Lots of inconsequential tidbits (eats chicken, his wife, ex wives, two dogs, home decoration)

Then, suddenly, some words which announced some substance, backed by ... nothing

For some, his controversial positions have started to undermine both his reputation as a scientist and his own anti-religious crusade. Friends who vigorously defend both his cause and his character worry that Dawkins might be at risk of self-sabotage. “He could be seriously damaging his long-term legacy,” the philosopher Daniel Dennett said of Dawkins’s public skirmishes. It is a legacy, Dennett believes, that should reflect the “masterpiece” that was The Selfish Gene and Dawkins’s major contribution to our understanding of life. As for Twitter: “I wish he wouldn’t do it,” Krauss said. “I told him that.”

So, Krauss and Dennett think there is a risk of self-sabotage, but why is not elucidated.

What was the main contention of the article is not elaborated upon. Back to details.

Great journalism. Great article.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
21. It's long but a really good overview of his life up to this point.
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 04:59 PM
Jun 2015

I think the author is fair and I loved the analogy that Dennet uses of the zinc on a boat. He does, indeed, serve that purpose and will be long remembered for doing so.

Promethean

(468 posts)
22. So you understand that this is basically a reverse argument from authority right?
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 05:55 PM
Jun 2015

You assume we revere some authority figure because hey, everybody else does. Richard Dawkins is a biologist who said and wrote some clever things that I agree with. Every atheist I've ever met has a very similar opinion of him. We don't elevate him to a position of dictating dogma to us. Nobody can ever reach that kind of position with atheism. This is why all the hit pieces on individuals who have gained some fame are pointless. We don't worship these people, we just like some of their ideas.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
24. There are some poor posters here
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 06:23 PM
Jun 2015

who think that if they tear down Dawkins, that gawd will somehow come out of hiding and they can bow down to him without being embarrassed. They haven't yet tumbled to the fact that Dawkins is not the issue, never has been , never will be, but it's all they have.

edhopper

(33,580 posts)
26. Reputation among whom?
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 07:38 PM
Jun 2015

Those that have found his writing intelligent and stimulating?
Or those who have hated him since "The Blind Watchmaker"?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
28. Or those that approach him with a certain level of critical thinking.
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 08:55 PM
Jun 2015

See, there are all kinds of grey areas here.

I respect him as a scientists. I think he is very intelligent and often stimulating.

I think he will have a very wonderful legacy and has done a great service.

But i think he needs to rethink his path.

Not fitting your tightly defined categories can be challenging.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
30. So I looked up bianary, because I didn't know what it meant.
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 09:06 PM
Jun 2015

And google told me that I probably meant binary.

So, yes, I think you were being binary.

edhopper

(33,580 posts)
32. spellink alwaz bad on tablet
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 09:11 PM
Jun 2015

But no I was just making the point that those who dislike him willl find reasons no matter what.

Much of this article was just petty crap.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
33. How could you say the article was just petty crap?
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 09:22 PM
Jun 2015

It was a really well researched, kind and very fair story about who he is and how he got to be who he is.

I think the headline turned you off. One can not read this story and find reasons to dislike him…. even me.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
76. But i think he needs to rethink his path.
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:38 PM
Jun 2015

What path?

I think "He is an emeritus fellow of New College, Oxford, and was the University of Oxford's Professor for Public Understanding of Science from 1995 until 2008." is not a bad path.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
79. I agree. That's is a remarkable path and he deserves nothing
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:47 PM
Jun 2015

but honor, respect and praise for his achievements.

However, his twitter account is something not likely to be added to his resume.

Response to cbayer (Reply #79)

tkmorris

(11,138 posts)
31. I'd love to point out where this article is wrong
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 09:10 PM
Jun 2015

But it doesn't actually say anything. What is the author criticizing him FOR exactly? Being outspoken? In many circles that would be considered a point in his favor, not a habit he should attempt to break himself of.

This is nonsense cbayer. If you were a bit more objective about the man you'd most likely see that, but in your zeal to tear him (and more importantly what he stands for) down you seem blind to that.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
35. She isn't criticizing him at all. She is merely submitting an analysis of who
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 09:27 PM
Jun 2015

he is, how he got there and reflecting his own views on whether he has chosen the right paths or not.

You are nonsense, tkmorris, for opining on an article which you didn't even read and scraping the bottom of your barrel to find some way to make it about me.

I liked the article and it instilled in me a greater understanding of the man and a higher level of respect. I particularly like the way that Dennet described him and think it will be his legacy.

Find yourself another scapegoat, morris.

tkmorris

(11,138 posts)
37. A) I did read it. Every word
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 09:45 PM
Jun 2015

B) Are you really going to try to convince anyone that you posted this thread to express your respect and admiration for Richard Dawkins? I have traveled a fair bit in my life, and I have eaten a great many questionable things in so doing, but I am not swallowing that.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
41. You so misjudge me and I am sure you have your reasons, but this is really about you, not me.
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 10:56 PM
Jun 2015

I posted this article because I thought it was a thoughtful, fair and really rather fond take on the man, his history and his legacy.

You haven't traveled nearly far enough. When you have, you might stop judging people. I hope that happens sooner than later, because you have a lot to offer.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
54. How can so many people "misjudge" you, cbayer?
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 08:36 AM
Jun 2015

Your posting history is patently clear. Your agenda is undisputed. No one has "misjudged" you, in fact they've determined what it is you're all about.

And I would say that based on your advice, you still haven't traveled enough either. Keep it up.

Heddi

(18,312 posts)
39. And to think I was so worried about who would step up to post malarkey articles about Atheists
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 10:07 PM
Jun 2015

for the next (approximately) 60 days.

Phew!


struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
40. His last peer-reviewed scientific paper was published over three decades ago
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 10:09 PM
Jun 2015

At some point, he decided that philosophical polemics mattered more to him than scientific work

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
43. I still think he has performed an important role and, in the end, will be honored for that.
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 10:59 PM
Jun 2015

He's kicked down a door than can't be re-sealed.

struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
45. What door is that?
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 11:37 PM
Jun 2015

I expect Dawkins to be widely-read in his subject area, but his academic career was scarcely earth-shattering: he published around a dozen genuine scientific papers from 1968 to 1980, by which point he seems to become mostly interested in generalities and his own possible role the popular book market

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
47. Instead he frittered away his time
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 06:17 AM
Jun 2015

enlightening millions of people about science. What a fucking waste of a life.

And he didn't even use Google to do it...

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
49. I think he performed an important role for the normalization of atheism
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 06:39 AM
Jun 2015

and did it in a way that no one hd previously done it.

Like other movements, the initial movers are often rather radical in their approach. His book opened up the possibility to lot of people that they weren't crazy or evil or somehow defective because they didn't believe.

That was pretty earth-shattereing. His genuine scientific career was not.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
50. That comment is unsubstantiated
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 07:22 AM
Jun 2015
His book opened up the possibility to lot of people that they weren't crazy or evil or somehow defective because they didn't believe.

Are you trying to say Dawkins was the first mass market atheist?

If so, it's just plain wrong.

struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
58. The atheisms of Marx, Nietzsche, and Freud were influential long before Dawkins appeared;
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 09:27 AM
Jun 2015

so was that of (say) Bertrand Russell. Madalyn Murray O'Hair won her prayer case in the US Supreme Court around the time Dawkins entered graduate school

That's just a few names of many we could mention

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
67. I don't disagree that they were all influential, but Dawkins made atheism
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 11:59 AM
Jun 2015

a thing people wanted to be a part of and pushed back against the prejudice. O'Hair did her part, but he took it much further, imo.

However, I think his time is over and the pendulum needs to swing back towards center where atheism is just a normal and acceptable state and not an antagonistic religion hating crusade.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
69. Atheism has never been
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 12:44 PM
Jun 2015

an "antagonistic religion hating crusade." You still haven't grasped the difference, have you? And just couldn't resist calling it a "crusade". Well, whatever floats your yacht.

 

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)
119. I agree. We should leave the antagonistic hate crusades to religion..
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 12:51 PM
Jun 2015

...they have so much more experience in that area...

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
70. Destroying his reputation..... with whom?
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:16 PM
Jun 2015

Certainly not with any thinking adult not pandering to the "get the outspoken atheist!" crowd.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
73. Do you include Dennet and KraUss in that group?
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:21 PM
Jun 2015
Friends who vigorously defend both his cause and his character worry that Dawkins might be at risk of self-sabotage. “He could be seriously damaging his long-term legacy,” the philosopher Daniel Dennett said of Dawkins’s public skirmishes. It is a legacy, Dennett believes, that should reflect the “masterpiece” that was The Selfish Gene and Dawkins’s major contribution to our understanding of life. As for Twitter: “I wish he wouldn’t do it,” Krauss said. “I told him that.”


It helps to read the material before spouting the dogma, otherwise one just comes off like your run of the mill fundamentalist.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
75. Why did you feel the need to insult AlbertCat with that label?
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:33 PM
Jun 2015

We should be beyond that kind of juvenile behavior, cbayer. It's almost like you are just trying to make others look small so you can feel big.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
78. I did read this junk.
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:45 PM
Jun 2015

Dennett and Krauss..."Friends who vigorously defend both his cause and his character"???? These one sentence statements by them, that came from who knows where, don't seem to diminish their opinion of the man at all. Dennett just wants people to "reflect" on his books that none of you guys have read (apparently) and Krauss is worried about some tweets! HE'S TOAST!

This article is ridiculous. And so is the lip smacking, hand wringing joy with which haters lap it up.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
80. You didn't read it. It is a very positive, almost adoring account of his life
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:54 PM
Jun 2015

and his achievements.

The article asks a question. The answer is that he probably is not destroying his reputation, but even he expresses concern:

Dawkins is mostly unconcerned by the possible damage he has inflicted on his reputation, but he has moments of self-doubt. “I genuinely don’t know whether I’m going about it the right way,” he said, in the half-resigned tone of someone who probably couldn’t go about it any other way. Recently, there have been some signs of reputational management – in a video interview on his “Vision of Life” for the Edge website, he discussed Darwinian natural selection without once mentioning his anti-religious campaigning. His memoirs, he pointed out, bypassed his various online wrangles entirely. In conversation, Dawkins seemed concerned that an article about him would draw disproportionately on his Twitter feed – in his eyes, an insignificant late chapter in the context of his whole career. “I’m a scientist,” he said, as if this fact might be forgotten.


I love this description of him by Krauss:

Daniel Dennett, a keen sailor, described Dawkins as his “sacrificial anode” – the hunk of zinc you bolt to the propeller shaft on a boat to protect the propeller from being eroded by seawater. The zinc is gradually worn away while the propeller remains unscathed. “In life you always want somebody out to the left of you to take the heat.”


I think that is a very apt description and I think Dawkins reputation is going to be just fine.

The article is excellent, as contrasted with the drooling and cheerleading with which some disciples that haven't even read it dismiss it as ridiculous.

That didn't feel very good either, I am guessing.
 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
89. It helps to read the material before spouting the dogma...
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 09:50 AM
Jun 2015

.. says the person who admitted discussing religion without having read the Bible or the Quran..

Response to cbayer (Original post)

edhopper

(33,580 posts)
118. Jury members often read the post
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 12:37 PM
Jun 2015

and what it replies to without seeing the larger context. On this they probably only saw the OP and the reply.

I wonder why this of all the posts in this thread, was alerted?

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
133. Some can't stand being called on their behaviour
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:09 PM
Jun 2015

and when you refuse to be silenced/refuse to delete your words that offend them they take further measures and get others to silence you for them.

 

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)
124. So now atheism is a cult?
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 01:22 PM
Jun 2015

And not those organizations that demand unquestioning fealty and the observation of bizarre rituals?

 

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)
129. Stop putting words in your mouth? These words Justin?
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 01:42 PM
Jun 2015

"the cult of Dawkins"

Did someone hack your account or did you type those words?

 

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)
131. "The cult of Dawkins"
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:02 PM
Jun 2015

What is Dawkins famous for being? An atheist.

You typed that, right?

Dawkins is world famous for being a vocal atheist. According to you he is the leader/head of a cult. An atheist cult. YOU typed that.

No two ways around it.

Try again.



 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
132. So is dawkins the leader of Athiests?
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:05 PM
Jun 2015

Your trying too hard here.

You claiming i said something i did not. Very dishonest on your part.


I said cult od Dawkins. Nothing about atheism.

Very dishonest and pointless engaging with you.

 

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)
136. Nice try. But you fail. Again.
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:18 PM
Jun 2015

You said 'cult of dawkins'. He's famous for being what? I'll give you a hint, it begins with 'A' and ends in 'theist'. You suggested he was the leader of, or had a cult. Whom other than atheists are we supposed to imagine would be in that cult? Mormons? Baptists?

The only one being dishonest here is you sport...

And for the love of dog will you PLEASE learn the difference between 'Your' and 'You're'.....

Curmudgeoness

(18,219 posts)
141. Well, yeah you did
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 03:06 PM
Jun 2015

say something "near that".

Let's connect the dots. Dawkins is a leading atheist--->cult of Dawkins--->atheism is a cult.

Or are you trying to say that only atheists who read Dawkins or agree with Dawkins are part of the cult? Since that is most atheists, it still doesn't pass the smell test.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
148. What's really hilarious is that this is a very positive article about Dawkins.
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 04:20 PM
Jun 2015

But it's long and full of big words.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
152. Is that anything like the Christian Cult of Human Sacrifice?
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 06:02 PM
Jun 2015

Not that I would ever make up something that offensive.

Or be an asshole and call you a cult follower just to piss you off, but I guess it's okay when you do it.

Cuz Jesus will forgive you your hypocrisy.

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