Religion
Related: About this forumIs Richard Dawkins destroying his reputation?
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jun/09/is-richard-dawkins-destroying-his-reputationThe scientist and bestselling writer has become the face of a new crusading atheism. But even his closest allies worry that his online provocations do more harm than good
Richard Dawkins at home in Oxford. Photograph: Graeme Robertson
Sophie Elmhirst
Tuesday 9 June 2015 01.00 EDT
In Dublin, not long ago, Richard Dawkins visited a steakhouse called Darwins. He was in town to give a talk on the origins of life at Trinity College with the American physicist Lawrence Krauss. In the restaurant, a large model gorilla squatted in a corner and a series of sepia paintings of early man hung in the dining room though, Dawkins pointed out, not quite in the right chronological order. A space by the bar had been refitted to resemble the interior of the Beagle, the vessel on which Charles Darwin sailed to South America in 1831 and conceived his theory of natural selection. Oh look at this! Dawkins said, examining the decor. Its terrific! Oh, wonderful.
Over the years, Dawkins, a zoologist by training, has expressed admiration for Darwin in the way a schoolboy might worship a sporting giant. In his first memoir, Dawkins noted the serendipitous realisation that his full name Clinton Richard Dawkins shared the same initials as Charles Robert Darwin. He owns a prized first edition of On The Origin of Species, which he can quote from memory. For Dawkins, the book is totemic, the founding text of his career. Its such a thorough, unanswerable case, he said one afternoon. [Darwin] called it one long argument. As a description of Dawkinss own life, particularly its late phase, one long argument serves fairly well. As the global face of atheism over the last decade, Dawkins has ratcheted up the rhetoric in his self-declared war against religion. He is the general who chooses to fight on the front line whose scorched-earth tactics have won him fervent admirers, and ferocious enemies. What is less clear, however, is whether he is winning.
Over dinner chicken for Dawkins, steak for everyone else he spoke little. He was anxious to leave early in order to discuss the format of the event with Krauss. Though Dawkins gives a talk roughly once a fortnight, he still obsessively overprepares. On this occasion, there was no need he and Krauss had put on a similar show the night before at the University of Ulster in Belfast. They had also appeared on a radio talkshow, during which they had attempted to debate a creationist (an idiot, in Dawkinss terminology). She simply tried to shout down everything Lawrence and I said. So she was in effect going la la la la la. Dawkins stuck his fingers in his ears as he sang.
Krauss and Dawkins have toured frequently as a double act, partners in a global quest to broadcast the wonder of science and the nonexistence of God. Dawkins has been on this mission ever since 1976, when he published The Selfish Gene, the book that made him famous, which has now sold over a million copies. Since then, he has written another 10 influential books on science and evolution, plus The God Delusion, his atheist blockbuster, and become the most prominent of the so-called New Atheists a group of writers, including Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris, who published anti-religion polemics in the years after 9/11.
more at link
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)He's still an intolerant jerk. Nothing has changed.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)I mean, you think creationism is high level intelligence stuff?
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)as long as those beliefs don't cause them to do harm to others.
I have personal objections to fundamentalisms of every stripe, and I find Dawkins to be a fundamentalist of the Reductionist Faith.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)There is a tremendous overlap in behavior between fundamentalist christians and belligerent atheists.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Tell us how religious fundamentalists and atheists are alike....and then give us the honest flip side and tell us how they're different. I'm all agog to see what issues are of critical importance to you.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)1. I clearly stated Christian fundamentalists and belligerent atheists. I never made a blanket statement about fundamentalism as it relates to the behavior of all religious believers regardless of their individual religion. The behavior of a fundamentalist of one faith may be completely different than a fundamentalist of another. This should be (no offense) rather obvious. As for your demands for a list and compare/contrast... why should I entertain someone who engages in emotionalism rather than objective consideration? I will state this: fundamentalist Christians engage in a behavior which places themselves above others. Belligerent atheists engage in behavior which places themselves above individuals who believe in religion. Both groups engage in harassing speech designed to shame the other into capitulation. Fundies tell non believers they are going to hell. They claim to be saved. Atheists tell religious individuals that they believe in "fairy tales" and are fooling themselves. They claim to be enlightened. The overlap is hubris and arrogance.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Deal just with Xstian fundies and atheists who won't STFU and deferentially mind their place.
If you were truly interested in "objective consideration" (sounds so noble, doesn't it?), you would have commented on which group is more likely to base their arguments on reason and objective evidence (and wouldn't have labeled doing so as "hubris" and "arrogance" . Not to mention commenting on which group is more likely to try to impose their views on others by government fiat or open violence. Conspicuously, but not surprisingly, you avoided both. Everyone reading this, including you, knows why.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Here, let me help you understand.
ATHEIST = someone who doesn't believe in god(s)
BELLIGERENT ATHEIST = asshole
Got it?
edhopper
(33,580 posts)lets do something about those "Uppity" atheists who challenge religious beliefs.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Everything wrong with some people being assholes. I am not pointing fingers. No need. They know who they are. And I have never seen you as one of them.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)if you interrupted your Italian holiday just to post that. Is it really that boring where you are?
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Dovresti considerarti molto fortunato avere un angelo guardiano come me.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Seriously, dude..you're spending your summer at a villa in the Italian countryside, and you'd rather spend time in here calling other people assholes?
Like I said, sad.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Are belligerent atheists beheading people?
Are they flying planes into buildings?
Are they trying to pass laws to restrict reproductive rights?
Please do tell.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)How hard is it to actually comprehend what you read? Is it so terribly difficult to take a deep breath and read something without allowing emotionalism to blind you to the words displayed on your screen? I clearly stated fundamentalist Christians and belligerent atheists. The last time I checked there were no Christians who flew planes into buildings nor are Christians beheading anyone. And yes, I'm well aware of the actions of Christians hundreds of years ago. I'm aware of the rape and pillage of Vikings. I'm aware of the enslavement of others by Roman pagans, Egyptian Pagans, Greek Pagans etc etc. I'm aware of native American tribes slaughtering each other. I'm well aware of the use of religion as justification for brutality and violence.
-
Again... Christian fundies and Belligerent Atheists. I will concede that I should not have used tremendous. You were correct to point out that atheists are not seeking to prevent people from having reproductive freedom. What I was considering was the "shaming" behavior of the two groups I mentioned. Both consider themselves morally superior and maintain a black and white/absolutist thinking mentality.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)There is no need to be so verbally abusive. Good day.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Since he's probably already realizing that the tired old "fundamentalist atheists are as bad as religious fundamentalists" claptrap gets chopped up an eaten for lunch here. I mean seriously..how many times are people going to post the same crap, thinking that it's something new and insightful, instead of tired and debunked?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Some people need to justify their position by creating two equally bad "extremes" so they can put themselves right in the "sensible middle."
It always fails horribly, but that doesn't seem to bother the folks who do it. A typical reaction is to just label their critic an extremist. Ta da, problem resolved!
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)of "broadbrushing". Another favorite tactic amongst the religionists. Lets them feel like they've taken the moral and intellectual high ground.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)has quickly abandoned even the pretense of trying to back up his ridiculous claim.
What a shock.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)You hit the nail on the head with "Both consider themselves morally superior and maintain a black and white/absolutist thinking mentality."
Fortunately, we don't have any Christian fundies around here, but we do have a handful of noisy BA's, who think that by teaming up, their bile becomes more palatable. I guess some folk are delusional, regardless of their religious beliefs.
The further they marginalize themselves, the more disconnected and extreme they become. I always find it fascinating when they defend their nastiness and intolerance with "well, at least we don't behead people". Which is mighty fucking big of them.
"Yes, we are really nasty, but those guys are even nastier". Well, that makes it all hunky dory, I guess.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Unable to defend his claim or to answer simple challenges posed in the name of "objective consideration".
But if you'd like to point to anyone here whose "only goal is to attack religion", feel free. Those who know you and your history of false, hyperbolic claims that you can't back up won't hold our breath, though.
And speaking of putting words in other people's mouths, pot, meet kettle:
"Yes, we are really nasty, but those guys are even nastier".
Own your own words, Tack..stop trying to put your bile in other people's mouths.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)Right?
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Seriously, what do you think? I wouldn't use the word vermin in this context. This is more about what these two extreme groups share, because of their extremism. They share a deep and absolute sense of righteousness. There are thousands of extremist groups and movements throughout the world. All but a handful are law abiding peaceful people. They do not behead and mutilate. Let them believe what they want, as long as they do nothing to harm others.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)...regardless of context...You from past experience obviously feel differently...
I like the idea of do no harm, but that leaves the definition of 'harm' open to (mis)interpretation...Some religionists claim harm is being done when same-sex couples marry, so it is not as cut and dried as that concept would appear...
tymorial
(3,433 posts)This was my point. I read both of your replies. I thank you for them. The overlap boils down to moral superiority and posturing. I clearly touched a nerve with my comment. I shouldn't be surprised. I asked for it.
--
As for the "fled" comment by another... I did not flee. I was both busy and disinclined to continue a discussion that I felt would go no where.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Namely, in what ways do the behaviors of Xstian fundies and so-called "belligerent atheists" NOT overlap, and how do those contrast with the areas in which you claim they do? Which group is more likely to base their attitudes and statements on reason and evidence? Can you address those points honestly and objectively, or are you going to continue avoiding them and look to Tack for support instead?
As far as "righteousness", try "rightness" instead. It is in fact possible for one person or one group to be more right than another, for one argument to be better supported than another, even though it is impolitic among certain cliques on this board to say so when it comes to religion. But the entire site is based on that principle when it comes to politics. Are we all "belligerent" Democrats?
And yes, I'm sure you were disinclined to continue a conversation that you could see was not going to go your way, but against your point of view is not "no where".
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)What beliefs would those be?
mr blur
(7,753 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)No biology is doing fine.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I mean, he's a disgusting homophobic bigot and his church is declining in the West. Significantly. But you're worried about Dawkins? Too funny.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)As am I.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)They bring him into every conversation, hoping that some of the shit they sling will stick. Critical thinking is passe for some of our more strident brethren.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)the Pope is so cool with gays, gay marriage, gay sex.
He's like the Kathy Griffin of religion.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)His church is a whole other story.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)I strongly disagree with him on this, but I do not see him as a bigot. YMMV
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Last edited Fri Jun 12, 2015, 07:52 AM - Edit history (1)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026820527Fri Jun 12, 2015, 04:33 AM
Star Member Starboard Tack (10,835 posts)
164. Being opposed to same sex marriage does not make one a homophobe
I strongly disagree with him on this, but I do not see him as a bigot. YMMV
Can we expect you to persist in your deep and absolute sense of righteousness?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Your opinions on this issue are quite well documented here.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)it's pretty much the definition.
Bob Jones University had nothing against black people, they welcomed them to the school, as long as they didn't date white people. But they weren't bigots.
Yes, it's the same damn thing.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Does opposition to the institution of marriage itself make one a bigot?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I wonder how many would think it's bigoted to compare same sex marriage to bestiality, incest and marrying one's bicycle?
edhopper
(33,580 posts)"belligerent atheists"
Talk about throwing shit to see if it sticks.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)Total lack of self-awareness....
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)The point is the your wife is so bent on trying to show Dawkins as an intolerant bigot that she doesn't even see the hypocrisy of her praising Pope Frank for every damn thing he does when Franky is many times the bigot one could ever argue Dawkins is.
And I don't know which is more insulting in your post: theophobes, belligerent atheists, or strident brethren. But given I and few others give a flying fuck about what you have to say, I guess it doesn't matter. It is kind of laughable that, in this group at least, you are what passes for tolerant "atheist."
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)is one who calls other atheists who don't meekly mind their place and don't defer to religious nonsense and bigotry "assholes".
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Boggles the mind. Well, it doesn't, actually, when one has spent any amount of time in here, but...
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)I guess it is all about what description you identify with.
Of course, if you don't give a flying fuck, then why do you respond to what I say?
Is it a contest for you as to who is the biggest asshole or worst bigot, Dawkins or the Pope? If so, then you lose, big time.
Francis is head of an organization rooted in bigotry. He is making progress to reduce that bigotry, but has a long way to go. He is extremely popular in Italy right now, though the Vatican remains extremely unpopular. If Catholics can make this differentiation, then why can't the anti-theist bigots?
What excuse does Dawkins have for his bigotry? Besides an inflated ego, that is.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)OK, let's go near the top of the guy you are defending. He said that gay marriage was "from Satan" and would "destroy the family." AND he is in a position of power to make things happen in regard to gay marriage and has made things happen in blocking it.
What has Dawkins said that was anywhere near close to that level of bigotry.
Franky is horrible. That your wife defends him and tries to deflect by saying Dawkins is a meanie and you now jump on the bandwagon of defending this horrible bigot does not make it any less true. Just because Frank is less of an asshole than some prior pope can still mean he's a bigoted asshole. And he is.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)is a club ganging up on people.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Except I'd much rather have Dawkins in my corner. Defending a conservative bigot like Francis must get exausting.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Enjoy making these comparisons, which have little to do with anything. I am defending nobody, btw. I have not seen or heard anything from Francis that implies any bigotry towards gays. Feel free to enlighten me. I have no love for Popes in general. This is the first one I have felt anything positive for. So don't worry about raining on my parade. Being opposed to gay marriage, something I strongly support, does not make someone a homophobe or bigot, just a little behind the times. The RCC, in order to survive, must change its stand on same sex marriage. I think Francis will take a run at this before his papacy is up. I wish him luck.
Dawkins, otoh, is an outspoken bigot, proud to conduct his war on religion. No hiding behind tradition or holy books for him. No siree! Just upfront slurring and insulting of those who dare to be intellectually inferior to those endowed with both a superior logic and an ever so polite English public school way of talking down to simpler minds. Funny how Americans lap that shit up.
Enjoy your corner time!
I shall be watching from a distance.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)did you say that with a straight face?
there has been ample evidence that the pope is highly bigoted against homosexuals, and is also rather misogynistic. You claim you've never seen any of that, but it's been posted here many times over the years. Funny how every misinterpretation of Dawkins gets the anti-atheists riled up about denouncing any form of hate and "proselytizing" but direct quotes from Frankie and you claim straight up "I never saw it"
I am in awe.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Did you post some invisible links or did you think verbosity would suffice? Feel free to send me some quotes. Then we can play quotes together. What fun!
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)And we have this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218198534
which people agree those words are bigoted.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Link please to where Pope Francis says this.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)What do you have to say now? Revising your stance some?
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Links please
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The family is threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution of marriage, by relativism, by the culture of the ephemeral, by a lack of openness to life, Francis said at a Mass in Manila. These realities are increasingly under attack from powerful forces, which threaten to disfigure Gods plan for creation.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/pope-francis-suggests-gay-marriage-threatens-traditional-families
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)it does not make Francis a homophobe or a bigot. He is still locked into a traditional catholic mindset. Hopefully, he will come around on this and join the 21st century. Otherwise his church will continue to wither.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)It didn't matter why racists didn't want black people to eat at the same lunch counter and it doesn't matter why the pope doesn't think lgbt people deserve the same fundamental rights as heterosexuals or why women shouldn't have control over their own bodies.
"Tradition" is another excuse used by bigots of all kinds.
And anyone who thinks religious, racial and male privilege is a valid excuse for denying another's rights is a bigot as well.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)He's on board with black letter Catholic doctrine, which states that homosexuals are "inherently disordered".
But I'm sure our friend doesn't think that's bigoted either.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Being opposed to marriage equality isn't about bigotry, it's about tradition, and social conventions, and all the other things religious bigots claim.
Just ignore the word 'equality' and it will all make sense.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)He's seen the quotes over and over. In this very thread and others.
He's just too belligerent to admit it.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)If Francis' quotes are proof of homophobia, what do Tack's quotes say about him?
We're not doing it to enlighten him, we're just illustrating the difference between saying you care about lgbt rights and being an obtuse boob because he thinks this is funny.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)of having you on ignore, since he's responding to you directly.
I suspect asking over and over for quotes that are plastered all over this thread for him to see is just his way of trying to provoke certain people. But I'll let those reading the whole exchange decide who's being what here.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)If my pms are any indication we're not the only ones who are appalled by Tack's behaviour.
They realize he's using the same arguments as the religious bigots who claim religious freedom legislation is all about protecting "traditional" marriage.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Links please
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)BMUS jusy gave you about 5 posts about it.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)On Sat Jun 13, 2015, 12:42 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
Which direct quotes?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=204874
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
This poster is straight up trolling, demanding links which have been supplied to him several times in this thread. This is no longer about religion, it's a violation of site policy.
This poster claimed he's never seen quotes from Pope Francis where he said homophobic statements. Several people offed up a half dozen or more links to such quotes and he's back claiming he doesn't see any and demanding them again.
One person he was replying to linked him some quotes, so he for sure saw them, and another poster linked to more, and some links with Starboardtack saying some homophobic stuff (which had been hidden).
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jun 13, 2015, 01:03 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Give me a break. Ignore him then. There is nothing about this that merits hiding.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I hope this goes 0-7. It is a dumb alert. You are wasting people's time with it. Good luck in life.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)yes it does. What an absurd assertion. Tell me, does being opposed to interracial marriage make one a bigot?
Rob H.
(5,351 posts)Being opposed to same-sex marriage is the textbook definition of homophobia AND bigotry.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)[img][/img]
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I'm feeling charitable today, I'll be your huckleberry:
The new pontiff is being hailed as a fresh choice, but there's nothing new about his opposition to gay rights
Pope Francis has been praised for his humility (he picks up his own luggage!), his acceptance of other faiths (he wont insult the Prophet Mohammed in public addresses!) and his precedent shattering name choice (more humility!).
But the pontiff who is being hailed as a new direction for the Catholic Church is the same-old brand of theological conservative who opposes the ordination of women, abortion and the fundamental rights of gays and lesbians.
In fact, then-Cardinal Jose Bergoglio was a major force against the 2010 move to legalize same-sex marriage in his native Argentina. Though he ultimately failed, Bergoglio used the full weight of the church to crush the measure.
Here, a collection of his very worst quotes on the issue.
1. A Senate vote on gay marriage is a destructive pretension against the plan of God
From a letter to the Carmelite Sisters of Buenos Aires on the perils of marriage equality:
Lets not be naïve, were not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.
2. Gay marriage will destroy the family
More from the same letter to the four monasteries of Argentina:
The Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children.
3. Gay parenting is a rejection of Gods law engraved in our hearts
Again:
At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of Gods law engraved in our hearts.
4. The political struggle against marriage equality is war
And finally:
The bill will be discussed in the Senate after July 13. Look at San Jose, Maria, Child and ask them [to] fervently defend Argentinas family at this time. [Be reminded] what God told his people in a time of great anguish: This war is not yours but Gods. May they succor, defend and join God in this war.
5. Gay adoption is discrimination against children
According to the National Catholic Reporter, Francis called gay adoption a form of discrimination against children. A comment that resulted in a public rebuke from Argentine President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who said that Francis remarks suggested medieval times and the Inquisition.
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/
A Jesuit cardinal has become the latest Church leader to speak out forcefully against a governments push towards same-sex marriage, and has called on his nations contemplatives to pray fervently to prevent such laws.
According to an article in tomorrows LOsservatore Romano, Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio, the Archbishop of Buenos Aires and Primate of Argentina, has said that if a proposed bill giving same-sex couples the opportunity to marry and adopt children should be approved, it will seriously damage the family.
He made the statement in a letter addressed to each of the four monasteries in Argentina, asking the contemplatives to pray fervently that legislators be strengthened to do the right thing.
He wrote: In the coming weeks, the Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of Gods law engraved in our hearts.
Cardinal Bergoglio continued: Let us not be naive: this is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy Gods plan. It is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a move of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.
The cardinal also noted that today the country, in this particular situation, needs the special assistance of the Holy Spirit to bring the light of truth on to the darkness of error, it need this advocate to defend us from being enchanted by many fallacies that are tried at all costs to justify this bill and to confuse and deceive the people of good will.
...
Cardinal Bergoglio said the bill will be discussed in the Senate after July 13. We look to Saint Joseph, Mary and the Child Jesus and ask that they fervently defend the family in Argentina at this particular time, he said. We remember what God said to his people in a moment of great anguish: This war is not yours, but Gods: defend us, then, in this war of God.
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/cardinal_bergoglio_hits_out_at_same-sex_marriage
Your disgusting homophobic posts:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=123723
112. And this has what to do with the RCC?
Why would any couple want to marry in a church that doesn't accept them? Makes no sense.
You really look for extreme situations to provide fodder for your hatred of religion. How about if I wanted to marry my bicycle, or my hamster and some church opposed performing the ceremony, would you be there, fighting for my rights?
I'm sorry, but religious rights and gay rights are not the same thing. I support both. Seems like you only support one. I know many gay couples, some who married in church and some at town hall and some couldn't care less about the institution of marriage.
I think your views are self centered. You want the world to adapt to your values, like the vegan who wants everyone to quit eating meat. What a boring world that would be.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=124676
176. Really? And how exactly did I do that?
You seem to confuse marriage and sexuality. The first is about a ceremonial binding of two entities. The second is about sex.
Who are you to tell me I cannot marry my dog, or my brother, or my mother, or my fucking bicycle, if I so wish. You don't get to decide these things. Sorry to disappoint you.
A Jury voted 5-2 to hide this post on Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:12 PM. Reason: This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=124679
177. No, I am not equating it with anything.
We should all have the right to marry whomever or whatever, provided it is consensual and conducted of sound mind.
Do you have a problem with sisters marrying each other? I don't. How about other family members? Do you draw lines and, if so, why?
My point, as I'm sure you are already aware, was about seeking approval from the RCC or any other church, to get married. That approval comes from within one's own conscience. Official approval comes from the state. Fuck the church and fuck those who want to paint me as an enemy of equal rights. Fuck the bigots and bullies and nasty hate mongering anti-theists. Fuck all fascists.
Happy Easter!
You're welcome.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Wreckd two birds with one post
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Sick of the apologists for that homophobic bigot.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)you're his biggest supporter. Where else would he get this valuable information that he's been missing out on all of these years?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Many of them from lgbt posters who shouldn't have their concerns dismissed by catholic apologists.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)That's embarrassing. No doubt about it, homophobia.
None from Dawkins because he's an honest, liberal person with progressive values.
Imagine that!
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I thought I'd show everyone who the true bigots are.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Last edited Thu Jun 11, 2015, 07:02 PM - Edit history (2)
Pope Francis offered his sharpest critique against so-called nontraditional families on Friday morning, suggesting that the church must advocate for the rights of children to be raised "in the complementarity of the masculinity and femininity of a father and a mother."
The pope condemned child labor and child soldiers, and then said that "it is necessary to emphasize the right of children to grow up within a family, with a father and a mother able to create a suitable environment for their development and emotional maturity. Continuing to mature in the relationship, in the complementarity of the masculinity and femininity of a father and a mother, and thus preparing the way for emotional maturity," according to the Vatican Information Service
...
Back in December, Bishop Charles Scicluna of Malta said he discussed adoption of children by same-sex couples with Pope Francis. The bishop said the pope was "shocked" by the idea, and that he was encouraged to preach against the idea during Christmas services.
As archbishop of Buenos Aires in 2010, before he was elected pope, then-Archbishop Jorge Mario Bergoglio said children raised by same-sex parents were suffering a form of discrimination.
Speaking out against a proposed law to legalize same-sex marriage in Argentina, Bergoglio said, "At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of Gods law engraved in our hearts.
http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2014/04/11/pope-francis-kids-must-have-moms-and-dads
Your accused atheists of "slinging shit" and said we were incapable of "critical thinking":
They bring him into every conversation, hoping that some of the shit they sling will stick. Critical thinking is passe for some of our more strident brethren.
What does it say about you that you are either so goddamned unaware of what the man actually said about lgbt people or that you knew about it and continue to defend him against his critics?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Pope Francis is a conservative who is anti-gay marriage and anti-gay adoption. He has described same-sex marriage as the work of the devil and a destructive attack on Gods plan. He has also said that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children.
In 2010, Francis championed against a bill for same-sex marriage and gay adoption, according to the National Catholic Register.
[T]he Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family," he wrote to the four monasteries in Argentina. "At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of Gods law engraved in our hearts.
He went on to describe it as a "move of the Father of Lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God" and asked for lawmakers to "not act in error." In John 8:44, the Father of Lies is the devil.
...
Graddick also specifically addressed Francis' previous comments about gay adoption being a "discrimination against children."
"The real discrimination against children is the pedophilia that has run rampant in the Catholic Church with little more than collusion from the Vatican," he said.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-gay-marriage-anti_n_2869221.html
You said:
In what fucking universe is this pope "cool" with lgbt people?
Maybe you should oh, I dunno, listen to what they're actually saying about him instead of making shit up so you can vilify atheists.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)What a silly thing to say. Find me one quote where I do such a thing. I challenge close minded people, be they atheists or believers. I have little time for those who live in a black and white reality, fueled by their self righteousness.
We can strongly disagree with Francis on the issue of gay marriage and adoption. None of that makes him a homophobe or a bigot.
I do not defend his ideas on this subject. Hopefully, they wil change.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I think it's obvious who the bigots are in this forum, Tack.
Like I said, you have a very good reason for turning a blind eye to the pope's homophobia.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Doesn't surprise me that you think Francis is a homophobe if you think I am. Do you ever read the nonsense you write?
Instead of reposting my posts, which I am grateful for, btw, why don't you address the points you disagree with? It may enhance your credibility.
Believe me, if anyone besides the intolerant theophobes and Dawkins groupies bought any of the bullshit you accuse me of, then I would be long gone.
But please keep posting my thoughts. I appreciate it. But try to be honest and show some integrity. Thank you.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)If you're so sure that I'm in the wrong why not excuse his bigotry in front of a larger audience?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6820527
Right now 209 posters have voted that being adamantly opposed to same-sex marriage does make someone a bigot.
And why don't you compare same sex marriage to marrying your hamster, relative and bicycle while you're there?
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)The post you link to makes no mention of religion or Francis. Yes, I voted.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Pope Francis: Kids Must Have Moms and Dads
Pope Francis Against Gay Marriage, Gay Adoption
Pope Francis new clothes: Why his progressive image is white smoke and mirrors
A jury voted to hide your homophobic post 5-2 in this thread which is full of people who think the pope is a bigot.
I suppose they were all wrong too?
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)The other 2 realized my post was far from homophobic. Numbers don't make things right or wrong. They serve to illustrate how nuanced we are as a species.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)In our web site, we choose to define these words in terms of actions, not beliefs:
* homophobia as engaging in a behavior aimed at denigrating -- or restricting the human rights of -- persons who have a homosexual orientation and/or who engages in homosexual activity.
This behavior can take many forms: signing a plebiscite; sending an Email to one's senator or representative; participating in a demonstration; voting on a school board; knowingly voting to elect a homophobe; talking to coworkers or friends, delivering a sermon; etc.
The equal rights sought by gays, lesbians, and bisexuals (GLBs) include what many believe to be the most important human right: to be married; to have their spousal status recognized and registered; and to be assigned benefits and obligations by the government equal to those received by opposite-sex married couples. Other rights are protection from hate-motivated crimes, protection in accommodation, and employment security.
* homophobe as a person who engages in homophobic behavior.
* homophobic, an adjective referring to a behavior which attempts to maintain special rights for heterosexuals.
verb (used with object), denigrated, denigrating.
1. to speak damagingly of; criticize in a derogatory manner; sully; defame:
2. to treat or represent as lacking in value or importance; belittle; disparage:
You belittled and disparaged lgbt people's desire to marry the person they love by comparing it to wanting to marry your hamster, your brother, your mother and your "fucking bicycle".
And the pope's words also make him a homophobe, he favours restricting the human rights of lgbt people and considers them second class citizens.
But hey, don't listen to me or the five smart people who hid your post, take it from the 233+ tolerant people in GD, the authors of the articles I cited and the good folks at religioustolerance.org.
There is nothing nuanced about bigotry.
You and the pope are exactly what I said you were.
"At some point in our lifetime, gay marriage won't be an issue, and everyone who stood against this civil right will look as outdated as George Wallace standing on the school steps keeping James Hood from entering the University of Alabama because he was black."
― George Clooney
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)There is nothing nuanced about bigotry. Your obsession with me is noted, but please leave both my hamster and my adorable bicycle out of the conversation.
Have a little respect for those who cannot speak for themselves.
I love the Clooney quote, btw., and I'm sure you are quite delightful irl. Be well and keep up the good work, especially the re-posting of some of my better posts. You are, without a doubt, my favorite fan
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Last edited Sun Jun 14, 2015, 09:44 PM - Edit history (1)
You are using a human rights issue to smear atheists. It is shallow, opportunistic and contemptible.
I take this issue very seriously, your mockery of same sex marriage and dismissal of religious based bigotry proves I was right about you.
Your lack of compassion for lgbt people and support for their fight for equal rights is on record.
If I wouldn't get my post hidden I would tell you exactly what I think of religious apologists who feign concern for an oppressed minority while laughing at their struggle.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)You are using distorted logic to smear those atheists who embrace fellow liberals, regardless of their religious beliefs.
I do not laugh at the struggle of any oppressed minority, unless you consider anti-theist theophobes an oppressed minority. My compassion for the lgbt community is on record. Literally on record. I have fought for gay rights since the sixties and I am very pleased with the progress we have made on that front. But there is more work to be done. I am in Rome discussing this subject daily, with many people, both friends and strangers, many of whom are involved in this struggle.
Calling people like Pope Francis "homophobes" is counterproductive, imo. That does not make me an apologist for the position of the RCC on same sex marriage. It is an issue that the church needs to seriously rethink if it wants to survive. Personally, I have no interest in its survival.
I have little time for theophobic anti-theists who hide behind computer keyboards and attack fellow DUers by twisting their words in the hope that others will buy into their bullshit smearing of fellow atheists who do not share their disdain for people of faith. Come here to the streets of Testaccio and other neighborhoods of Rome and get involved with the struggle here on the ground before you accuse people of things you know nothing about.
I wish you well.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)You just defended racial and homophobic bigotry in GD:
143. No, of course not.
Close minded, yes. A bigot? No. You would have to expand on what you mean by "adamantly".
Marriage is a social convention, which means different things to different people. In itself, it is not a subject of bigotry.
Nice try though,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6826974
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Don't buy his populist rhetoric. The new pope is every bit the sexist homophobe as his predecessors
THE IMAGE OF Pope Francis is that he is a breath of fresh air, more progressive on social issues than his predecessor and a kinder, gentler pope. But when the facts are examined, you see that he is none of these things. There is an enormous disconnect between who the pope really is in terms of his policies and his public relations image, as crafted by the Vaticans PR man, previously with Fox News. The current PR mission is all about reversing the incredible decline in fundraising under the last pope from the U.S. Catholic Church in particular. Pope Francis has made any number of statements that seem to indicate change and progress that are not reflected in policy. In fact, in the wake of such comments from Pope Francis, the Vatican often makes a point to explicitly state that no church policy has changed.
While the pope transmits a populist vibeparticularly about the economy he is an old-school conservative who, despite his great PR, maintains nearly all of the socialpolicies of his predecessors and keeps up a hardline Vatican cabinet. He has done virtually nothing to change the policies of the church to match his more compassionate rhetoric. People excuse the pope, claiming that he doesnt have much power to make changes, but this simply isnt true. Further, it is ludicrous to suggest that a man who denies comprehensive reproductive health care (including all forms of birth control including condoms and abortion) and comprehensive family planning is a man who cares about the poor of this world. The bigotry of homophobia and sexism cloaked in religion are still bigotry and sexism. By giving to the church, American Catholics arent supporting progress, they are supporting oppression and in this way are complicit in the bigotry, sexism, and oppression of the church.
...
On January 17, 2014, Politico pointed out that in an interview given by the pope in August 2013, and published in September of that year, Pope Francis said the church did not have to talk about gay marriage and abortion all the time. And yet, the very next day (after the interview was published) Francis condemned abortion as unjust. Furthermore, after the interview was given, a week before its publication, the pope excommunicated a priest from Melbourne, Australia, Greg Reynolds, for advocating for female clergy and gay marriage. Pope Franciss seemingly understanding words about gay marriage and abortion were sandwiched in between two events that completely undermined that message. Pope Francis is wise, though, to grab headlines that make him seem less homophobic than his predecessors, because in the United States, home of the churchs funding base, most Catholics support marriage equality.
...
Instead, the church has the same focus on dogma over helping the poor, the same oppressive views on women and homosexuals, and the same abhorrent behavior in response to the sex abuse scandals. There is zero flexibility on contraception, abortion, gay rights, womens role in the church. Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI were at least honest salesmen; they told you exactly what you were getting. Pope Francis is much craftier than that. He uses his charm and humility (and a strong public relations strategy) to achieve the same goal as a used car salesman: to separate you from your money. American Catholics must put their faith and money where their mouth is if they want to see real change in the church. The idea that one can remain an active member of the church and expect ideological change only encourages the current pope to continue the practice of saying one thing and doing another. And why not? His numbers are up. The Catholic Churchs numbers are up. And it stands to reason that donations from American Catholics follow his favorability numbers and rise dramatically.
The church has a right to promote its beliefs and Pope Francis has a right to wage the best, smartest PR campaign he caneven if it is smoke and mirrors. But its wrong for a lazy media to tout Pope Francis as a reformer when hes nothing of the sort. I hope the media will stop promoting Pope Francis as a liberal.
We should not allow comforting rhetoric to distract us from the actions of a church that continues to enact and enforce policies that hurt women, homosexuals, and the poor. We should look at the ways in which our dollars in the collection plate are used. For many years the prominent writer Anna Quindlen, a liberal feminist, remained a Catholic while publicly and vehemently disagreeing with the church on social issues. But in 2012 Quindlen was quoted as saying, Enough every time I sit in this pew I ratify this behavior, and Im not going to ratify it anymore. The great Catholic activist Dorothy Day said of people, It is best to disregard their talk and judge only their actions. Catholics would be wise to take her advice.
http://www.salon.com/2014/06/22/pope_franciss_liberal_reformer_image_is_all_smoke_and_mirrors_partner/
Funny how you "lap that shit up" and then defend it here.
You are unbelievably dismissive and apologetic about the homophobic rhetoric used by this pope and the RCC's continued vilification of lgbt people.
Considering your own homophobic slurs about same sex marriage I can see why you're blind to his.
And why you like this pope so much.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)News emerged last week that Pope Francis has strongly criticized modern theories of gender, comparing them to the educational policies of Hitler and the destructive possibilities of the nuclear arms race.
In an interview included in a new book by Andrea Tornielli and Giacomo Galeazzi, Pope Francis: This Economy Kills, and released in part in the Italian daily La Stampa, Francis compared gender theory to nuclear arms: Lets think of the nuclear arms, of the possibility to annihilate in a few instants a very high number of human beings. Lets think also of genetic manipulation, of the manipulation of life, or of the gender theory, that does not recognize the order of creation.
In using the term gender theory, Francis is denouncing the academic perspective that sees gender identities as a spectrum rather than as binaries. Gender theorists argue that the way people identify themselves is the result of social and cultural constructions of gender.
This has important ramifications for how we think about biology and sexuality. While the point may seem academic, its ramifications are not. The recognition that gender exists on a spectrum has provided part of the intellectual foundations for both LGBTQIA advocacy and womens rights.
In the interview, Francis recalled how a public education minister was given funding for new schools for the poor only on the condition that school textbooks taught gender theory. Francis described this as ideological colonization and added that the same was done by the dictators of the last century. think of Hitler Youth.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/20/pope-gender-theory-like-nuclear-weapons.html
You said:
Of course a good liberal like you must certainly be aware of the fact that transgender people are victimized daily and often killed because of the hate generated by remarks like this.
So why are you asking for others to enlighten you?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)By definition, bigots are people with unshakable baseless prejudices. There is absolutely no reason, besides blind prejudice, to deny same sex couples the right to civil marriage.
You can use religious language to express your belief that gays and lesbians are disgusting second class citizens unworthy of rights that heterosexuals take for granted, but it doesn't make your position any less bigoted. Logically, there is no reason to put same-sex relationships on a lesser legal footing than opposite sex unions, unless you think there's something wrong with them.
You can insist you don't wish gay people any harm. Perhaps not. But there were lots of pro-segregationists who didn't wish ill upon black people, but still didn't want to drink out of the same fountains. They too were bigots.
You can point out that discrimination against gays and lesbians is a longstanding tradition, but that doesn't excuse your bigotry. If anything, it makes it worse. It was one thing to fear what the expansion of gay rights might do when gays and lesbians had no rights. Today we're decades into gay liberation and none of the dire predictions have come true. For example, children raised by same-sex parents are at least as healthy and well-adjusted as those raised by opposite sex parentsand no more likely to self-identify as gay.
***
Calling someone a bigot isn't a failure of tolerance. Nobody is challenging the right of the anti-equal marriage brigade to speak its mind. Nobody is trying to take rights away from them or relegate them to second-class citizenship. They have the Constitutional right to make up whatever crazy rules they want for marriage within their own religions. If only they were willing to extend the same tolerance to gays and lesbians.
http://bigthink.com/focal-point/if-you-oppose-equal-marriage-you-are-a-bigot
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Genetic biology is crumbling?????
I don't think so.
Is it possible that a person could be so clueless as to not know what the person they are foolishly criticizing even does for a living?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Had he stuck with that, he would be an esteemed professor in his field and nothing more.
He hasn't done any evolutionary biology in over 35 years. He will be remembered for his work over the last 30 years as an activist for atheism and a spokesman against religion.
Is it possible that a person could be so clueless as to not know what the person they are foolishly idolizing even does for a living?
Now, that last statement just doesn't feel very good, does it?
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)That's 1981...
Unweaving the Rainbow - 2000
The Ancestor's Tale - 2006
The Greatest Show on Earth - 2010
The Magic of Reality - 2012
All books on biology.
also (from Wiki): Since 1970, he has been a fellow of New College, Oxford.[27] He has delivered a number of inaugural and other lectures, including the Henry Sidgwick Memorial Lecture (1989), the first Erasmus Darwin Memorial Lecture (1990), the Michael Faraday Lecture (1991), the T. H. Huxley Memorial Lecture (1992), the Irvine Memorial Lecture (1997), the Sheldon Doyle Lecture (1999), the Tinbergen Lecture (2004) and the Tanner Lectures (2003).[11] In 1991, he gave the Royal Institution Christmas Lectures for Children on Growing Up in the Universe. He has also served as editor of a number of journals, and has acted as editorial advisor to the Encarta Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia of Evolution.
Is that "doing" biology?
or do you expect him to be doing graduate work.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)He doesn't sound like an intolerant jerk in
"The Selfish Gene"
or
"The Blind Watchmaker"
or
"The Greatest Show on Earth"
or
"Climbing Mount Improbable"
or
"The Wonder of Reality"
or
"Unweaving the Rainbow"
or...
or....
or...
Perhaps you mean another Richard Dawkins. Maybe one you made up.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)What a bunch of in that article that Dawkins haters are just lapping up.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)been issues of some debate.
This dinner was held in a steak restaurant. Perhaps his choice of chicken was a compromise. Many vegetarians/vegans have taken him to task for his inconsistencies.
Or she was just padding the article.
Is that your biggest objection to the article, or did you stop reading there?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Busy day around here.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)wow. Is the author even remotely aware that Darwin's Theory is one of the Great Works of civilization? Is the op aware of what sort of drivel this essay is?
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)So, there's that.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)maybe the best person in history for a budding British biologist to idolize.
Who should he David Beckham?
pokerfan
(27,677 posts)Why can't he be normal and worship LeBron James like everyone else?
What an odd article.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Calling this an article would be too laudatory. A hodgepodge of impressionist colorful details.
Lots of inconsequential tidbits (eats chicken, his wife, ex wives, two dogs, home decoration)
Then, suddenly, some words which announced some substance, backed by ... nothing
So, Krauss and Dennett think there is a risk of self-sabotage, but why is not elucidated.
What was the main contention of the article is not elaborated upon. Back to details.
Great journalism. Great article.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)I think the author is fair and I loved the analogy that Dennet uses of the zinc on a boat. He does, indeed, serve that purpose and will be long remembered for doing so.
Promethean
(468 posts)You assume we revere some authority figure because hey, everybody else does. Richard Dawkins is a biologist who said and wrote some clever things that I agree with. Every atheist I've ever met has a very similar opinion of him. We don't elevate him to a position of dictating dogma to us. Nobody can ever reach that kind of position with atheism. This is why all the hit pieces on individuals who have gained some fame are pointless. We don't worship these people, we just like some of their ideas.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)who think that if they tear down Dawkins, that gawd will somehow come out of hiding and they can bow down to him without being embarrassed. They haven't yet tumbled to the fact that Dawkins is not the issue, never has been , never will be, but it's all they have.
pokerfan
(27,677 posts)Bashed Dawkins.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)Those that have found his writing intelligent and stimulating?
Or those who have hated him since "The Blind Watchmaker"?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)See, there are all kinds of grey areas here.
I respect him as a scientists. I think he is very intelligent and often stimulating.
I think he will have a very wonderful legacy and has done a great service.
But i think he needs to rethink his path.
Not fitting your tightly defined categories can be challenging.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)Bianary?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)And google told me that I probably meant binary.
So, yes, I think you were being binary.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)But no I was just making the point that those who dislike him willl find reasons no matter what.
Much of this article was just petty crap.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)It was a really well researched, kind and very fair story about who he is and how he got to be who he is.
I think the headline turned you off. One can not read this story and find reasons to dislike him
. even me.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)It seems several others see it for what it is.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)edhopper
(33,580 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)I'm afraid
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)What path?
I think "He is an emeritus fellow of New College, Oxford, and was the University of Oxford's Professor for Public Understanding of Science from 1995 until 2008." is not a bad path.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)but honor, respect and praise for his achievements.
However, his twitter account is something not likely to be added to his resume.
Response to cbayer (Reply #79)
Post removed
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)tkmorris
(11,138 posts)But it doesn't actually say anything. What is the author criticizing him FOR exactly? Being outspoken? In many circles that would be considered a point in his favor, not a habit he should attempt to break himself of.
This is nonsense cbayer. If you were a bit more objective about the man you'd most likely see that, but in your zeal to tear him (and more importantly what he stands for) down you seem blind to that.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)he is, how he got there and reflecting his own views on whether he has chosen the right paths or not.
You are nonsense, tkmorris, for opining on an article which you didn't even read and scraping the bottom of your barrel to find some way to make it about me.
I liked the article and it instilled in me a greater understanding of the man and a higher level of respect. I particularly like the way that Dennet described him and think it will be his legacy.
Find yourself another scapegoat, morris.
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)B) Are you really going to try to convince anyone that you posted this thread to express your respect and admiration for Richard Dawkins? I have traveled a fair bit in my life, and I have eaten a great many questionable things in so doing, but I am not swallowing that.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I posted this article because I thought it was a thoughtful, fair and really rather fond take on the man, his history and his legacy.
You haven't traveled nearly far enough. When you have, you might stop judging people. I hope that happens sooner than later, because you have a lot to offer.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Your posting history is patently clear. Your agenda is undisputed. No one has "misjudged" you, in fact they've determined what it is you're all about.
And I would say that based on your advice, you still haven't traveled enough either. Keep it up.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Hey cbayer, turn around...
Heddi
(18,312 posts)for the next (approximately) 60 days.
Phew!
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Heddi
(18,312 posts)struggle4progress
(118,290 posts)At some point, he decided that philosophical polemics mattered more to him than scientific work
cbayer
(146,218 posts)He's kicked down a door than can't be re-sealed.
struggle4progress
(118,290 posts)I expect Dawkins to be widely-read in his subject area, but his academic career was scarcely earth-shattering: he published around a dozen genuine scientific papers from 1968 to 1980, by which point he seems to become mostly interested in generalities and his own possible role the popular book market
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)enlightening millions of people about science. What a fucking waste of a life.
And he didn't even use Google to do it...
cbayer
(146,218 posts)and did it in a way that no one hd previously done it.
Like other movements, the initial movers are often rather radical in their approach. His book opened up the possibility to lot of people that they weren't crazy or evil or somehow defective because they didn't believe.
That was pretty earth-shattereing. His genuine scientific career was not.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Are you trying to say Dawkins was the first mass market atheist?
If so, it's just plain wrong.
struggle4progress
(118,290 posts)so was that of (say) Bertrand Russell. Madalyn Murray O'Hair won her prayer case in the US Supreme Court around the time Dawkins entered graduate school
That's just a few names of many we could mention
cbayer
(146,218 posts)a thing people wanted to be a part of and pushed back against the prejudice. O'Hair did her part, but he took it much further, imo.
However, I think his time is over and the pendulum needs to swing back towards center where atheism is just a normal and acceptable state and not an antagonistic religion hating crusade.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)an "antagonistic religion hating crusade." You still haven't grasped the difference, have you? And just couldn't resist calling it a "crusade". Well, whatever floats your yacht.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)...they have so much more experience in that area...
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Please be specific.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Certainly not with any thinking adult not pandering to the "get the outspoken atheist!" crowd.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)It helps to read the material before spouting the dogma, otherwise one just comes off like your run of the mill fundamentalist.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)We should be beyond that kind of juvenile behavior, cbayer. It's almost like you are just trying to make others look small so you can feel big.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Dennett and Krauss..."Friends who vigorously defend both his cause and his character"???? These one sentence statements by them, that came from who knows where, don't seem to diminish their opinion of the man at all. Dennett just wants people to "reflect" on his books that none of you guys have read (apparently) and Krauss is worried about some tweets! HE'S TOAST!
This article is ridiculous. And so is the lip smacking, hand wringing joy with which haters lap it up.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)and his achievements.
The article asks a question. The answer is that he probably is not destroying his reputation, but even he expresses concern:
I love this description of him by Krauss:
I think that is a very apt description and I think Dawkins reputation is going to be just fine.
The article is excellent, as contrasted with the drooling and cheerleading with which some disciples that haven't even read it dismiss it as ridiculous.
That didn't feel very good either, I am guessing.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts).. says the person who admitted discussing religion without having read the Bible or the Quran..
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)Response to cbayer (Original post)
Post removed
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)But this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=204164
And this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=204181
Stand. Very interesting.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)...
edhopper
(33,580 posts)and what it replies to without seeing the larger context. On this they probably only saw the OP and the reply.
I wonder why this of all the posts in this thread, was alerted?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)truebrit71
(20,805 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)and when you refuse to be silenced/refuse to delete your words that offend them they take further measures and get others to silence you for them.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)How dare you challenge the cult of Dawkins!
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)And not those organizations that demand unquestioning fealty and the observation of bizarre rituals?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Stop putting words in my mouth.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)"the cult of Dawkins"
Did someone hack your account or did you type those words?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I said nothing near that.
Try again.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)What is Dawkins famous for being? An atheist.
You typed that, right?
Dawkins is world famous for being a vocal atheist. According to you he is the leader/head of a cult. An atheist cult. YOU typed that.
No two ways around it.
Try again.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Your trying too hard here.
You claiming i said something i did not. Very dishonest on your part.
I said cult od Dawkins. Nothing about atheism.
Very dishonest and pointless engaging with you.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)You said 'cult of dawkins'. He's famous for being what? I'll give you a hint, it begins with 'A' and ends in 'theist'. You suggested he was the leader of, or had a cult. Whom other than atheists are we supposed to imagine would be in that cult? Mormons? Baptists?
The only one being dishonest here is you sport...
And for the love of dog will you PLEASE learn the difference between 'Your' and 'You're'.....
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)say something "near that".
Let's connect the dots. Dawkins is a leading atheist--->cult of Dawkins--->atheism is a cult.
Or are you trying to say that only atheists who read Dawkins or agree with Dawkins are part of the cult? Since that is most atheists, it still doesn't pass the smell test.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Sorry but your attempt to say i said something i did not is dishonest.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)'cult of personality'?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)truebrit71
(20,805 posts)You do the same?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)But it's long and full of big words.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Not that I would ever make up something that offensive.
Or be an asshole and call you a cult follower just to piss you off, but I guess it's okay when you do it.
Cuz Jesus will forgive you your hypocrisy.
Mariana
(14,857 posts)and about religious people who practice it.