A new generation of faith-based activism for equality

[UrbScotty]

ur nation’s seismic shift away from intolerance and towards full equality for LGBTQ people has been strengthened by voices leant by our nation’s young faithful. A rising collective of Millennials are resoundingly dismantling the view that religion is incompatible with LGBTQ acceptance—embracing equal treatment for all Americans not in spite of, but because of, their faith.

The first openly transgender person to head a mainline Protestant organization, Alex McNeill currently serves as the executive director of More Light Presbyterians. McNeill’s journey to ordination will be chronicled alongside other LGBTQ people of faith in the upcoming film, “Out of Order,” which takes place against the backdrop of the passage of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A)’s measure to include same-sex couples in their definition of marriage. McNeill was influential in PCUSA’s vote, and has also organized faith communities in support of Maryland’s same-sex marriage legislation and local ballot measures to promote equal rights for LGBTQ people. Reverend Cameron Partridge, an Episcopal priest, says his transgender status has not hindered, but helped him in his role as one of the first openly transgender chaplains at a major university. Because of his identity, he says, he is able to navigate the diverse intersections of faith and sexuality many students wrestle with. Partridge utilizes his various platforms to foster understanding between congregants and religious leaders in an effort to assimilate transgender people into all forms of ministry.

Matthew Vines, author of “God and The Gay Christian,” is regarded as influential for engaging older, evangelical leaders in the growing acceptance of gay rights. Vines is also president and founder of The Reformation Project, a group that trains clergy, lay leaders, and congregants to provide support for LGBTQ people navigating various aspects of church life. Meanwhile, Justin Massey is encouraging LGBTQ advocacy in another unlikely space: the conservative, evangelical Wheaton College. Feeling isolated as an undergraduate, Massey co-founded Refuge, the first administration-approved campus support group for non-heterosexual or questioning students. In Massey’s words, his sexual identity is “not only compatible with his faith, but absolutely critical.”

http://genprogress.org/voices/2015/08/18/38947/a-new-generation-of-faith-based-activism/

[AtheistCrusader]

1. 'strengthened by' a tiny minority of religious Americans.

Oh. Boy.

Meanwhile 56% of Americans want gay rights to come in second place/lose whenever religious freedom is in question.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/07/22/two-big-surprises-inside-new-poll-about-americans-views-on-gay-marriage-and-religious-liberty/

Pretty sure that 56% of Americans doesn't include any secular/atheists.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. but there exists an atheist bigot

Checkmate Atheists!

[UrbScotty]

4. ...

[AtheistCrusader]

5. Trouble understanding subsets/supersets huh?

'Alternate viewpoint' my ass. It's a tiny minority of religious people.

[UrbScotty]

6. Uh...

[AtheistCrusader]

8. I supplied a link to hard data in my first response.

Randomly image-macro all you want.

[UrbScotty]

10. Religious people do good things. Sorry. (nt)

[AtheistCrusader]

11. Too bad they are massively outnumbered by the religious people that don't.

Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The thing that rubbed me the wrong way about your OP is not that some religious people are doing good things, and trying to repair bad wounds, it's that they are such a small number it's not really worth discussing.

[UrbScotty]

12. Most religious people *are* on the right side of history here.

A new poll finds that most religious Americans across denominational lines agree that same-sex couples should have the right to marry, including those who attend religious services regularly, busting the myth that religious people remain opposed to marriage equality. Further, nearly a third of young adults who leave their childhood religion cite the hostility to LGBT equality as a prime motivation.

Nearly three-quarters of religiously unaffiliated Americans (73 percent) favor allowing gay and lesbian couples to legally marry, as do majorities of Jewish Americans (83 percent), white mainline Protestants (62 percent), white Catholics (58 percent) and Hispanic Catholics (56 percent), according to a poll whose results were released Wednesday by the Public Religion Research Institute in Washington, D.C. However, 59% of black Protestants and 69% of white evangelicals oppose same-sex marriage.

http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2014/02/26/most-religious-americans-support-marriage-equality

[cleanhippie]

13. And yet they support their churches with time and money and attendance that the church

then turns around and spends working on the wrong side of history.

The RCC is a classic example. And overwhelming majority of the Catholic laity support and/or use birth control, are pro-choice, and are pro-equality in all forms. Yet their church, which they give time and money to, does everything it its power, with the laity's money, to to oppose what most Catholics want.

[UrbScotty]

14. It's more complicated than you think.

Around here, Catholic parishes help feed and clothe the poor.

Besides, AC's comment suggested that very few religious people are pro-equality. My reply debunked that.

[cleanhippie]

15. Around there?

While at the same time actively promoting an anti-equality, anti-choice, anti-woman agenda.


I don't think that even qualifies as a zero-sum gain. The folks in your area benefit in the short term, society continues to be harmed in the long.

[UrbScotty]

16. Lots of LGBT and female Catholics out there

While at the same time actively promoting an anti-equality, anti-choice, anti-woman agenda.

If that were the case, why are so many women in the Church?

And why are there so many LGBT Catholics, including myself?

At any rate, I have yet to see a rebuttal to my rebuttal of AC's point.

[cleanhippie]

17. That's the question I'm asking; Why?

I do not understand how people can give time and money to an organization that actively fights against their rights.


Can you explain it to me?

[UrbScotty]

18. Premise of your argument: rejected (nt)

[cleanhippie]

19. I get it, Urb. It's a tough question many in your position don't want to face.

If you don't understand either, I can accept that.

[UrbScotty]

20. I get it. Many people can't stand the thought that religion can do good things.

I can accept that.

[cleanhippie]

22. Can you explain why you give time and money to an organization that actively fights against

your Rights?

Help me understand that. Please.

[UrbScotty]

23. Keep making that argument so we can keep kicking this pro-religion thread to the top!

[cleanhippie]

24. Keep dodging the question and I will.

[UrbScotty]

26. Can you explain why you even care about what I believe and do with my life?

[cleanhippie]

27. If you can't, or won't, I can accept that.

Just have the courtesy and the courage to say so instead of beating around the bush.

[UrbScotty]

28. LOL! Nothing like a little projection every now and then!

[cleanhippie]

29. If it makes you fell better about it, who am I to judge.

Aptly, here's your word of the day.

cog·ni·tive dis·so·nance
nounPsychology
noun: cognitive dissonance

the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.

[muriel_volestrangler]

61. Except that, when you analyse the figure, it turns out only 47% of religious Americans agreed

that same-sex couples should have the right to marry in that poll. Here's the report it came from: http://publicreligion.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/2014.LGBT_REPORT.pdf

During the last decade, the proportion of religiously unaffiliated Americans has more than doubled—22% identify as unaffiliated today compared to 8% in 2003.
...
Currently, a majority (53%) of Americans favor allowing gay and lesbian couples to legally marry while 41% oppose.
...
Two of the most supportive religious groups are religiously unaffiliated Americans (73%) and Jewish Americans (83%).

If 22% are unaffiliated (which includes people who are religious but unaffiliated with any organisation, but they don't break down the 'allowed to marry' figure to atheists or agnostics, so we'll stick with this), 78% are affiliated. With a 73% figure for unaffiliated, to get 53% overall you need

(53 - (73 * 0.22) ) / 0.78 = 47.4% of religiously affiliated Americans in favour of allowing same sex marriage.

[AtheistCrusader]

70. Numbers apparently don't matter here.

[UrbScotty]

71. They don't matter to those who ignore/dislike support for equality.

[AtheistCrusader]

76. Pretending tables have been turned does not make it so.

[UrbScotty]

78. That's why I don't pretend.

[AtheistCrusader]

80. And you also don't back up your handwaving with facts or sources.

[UrbScotty]

81. We already talked about projection

[AtheistCrusader]

82. Anyone reading the thread can see

[Leontius]

21. Absolutely sure you're wrong, again.

[cleanhippie]

25. Oh, look, yet another substanceless post.

[Leontius]

30. Time to strike a match.

[cleanhippie]

31. Please don't self-immolate.

I hear it's bad for your health.

[AtheistCrusader]

32. Yeah man, Associated Press is so full of shit, am I right?

Get out.

[UrbScotty]

33. The Blaze (the Glenn Beck-founded site you cited) is full of it, that's for sure

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TheBlaze

[AtheistCrusader]

34. Did not know that. Do you dispute what AP/GfK reported?

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/a688e500e35e4cd0a7f927e02c33b8ea/ap-poll-sharp-divisions-after-high-court-backs-gay-marriage#

[UrbScotty]

36. It disputes your argument that a "tiny minority" supports equality (nt)

[AtheistCrusader]

39. Not if you can do basic arithmetic.

Deduct the majority that opposes these rights. Then deduct secularists from the remainder, because they aren't religious, and also fit almost entirely within that pro-civil-rights minority.

Now.. what's left? Theres your pro civil rights religious minority. Is small. Sorry.

They were a minority even paired with secularists. But secularists are different; there's no anti-civil-rights bloc of american secularists that outnumber us at all, let alone 2:1.

Edit; the picture is even bleaker when. You consider just amerian voters, and ignore children and unregistered potential voters.

[UrbScotty]

41. Ha!

Your whole argument is based on the premise that all (or virtually all) non-religious people are perfect little human beings.

Pure fantasy. Kind of like trickle-down economics.

But even if that somehow was the case, then about half of those who support equality are religious!

No pun intended, but:

[AtheistCrusader]

43. Too bad you don't know what sort of fallacy your post is.

I never said perfect human beings. Nor did I say all. 18% of Americans unaffiliated with any religion (more than just atheists and agnostics) oppose or strongly oppose said civil rights.

http://publicreligion.org/2015/04/attitudes-on-same-sex-marriage-by-religious-affiliation-and-denominational-family/#.Vd6JDmZHaJI

If only 18% of religious people opposed, then this wouldn't be an issue, would it?

But the trend is not the same for religious people. You should know that. Why don't you know that?

[UrbScotty]

45. LOL! That same exact poll shows that a majority of these groups support equality:

1. White mainline protestants (62%)
2. Catholics (60%)
3. Unitarian universalists (94%!!!!!)
4. Orthodox Christians (56%)
5. Jews (77%)
6. Buddhists (84%)
7. Hundu (55%)
8. Other religious (85%)

Music to my ears!

Many Christians support marriage equality! Why would anyone on DU not appreciate that fact?

By the way, I see what happened there. No one can pull one over on me by using a different poll than the one cited on The Blaze earlier!!

[AtheistCrusader]

46. UU's are less than 1% of the populace. Why does that excite you?

You seem to have some trouble understanding proportion, and how those numbers relate to actual registered voters that vote.

Catholics and Mormons pretty much single-handedly passed prop 8 despite your excitable callout of their 'support' in that poll.

Supporting SSM is not precisely the same as supporting CRA Title II rights for same sex couples as a protected class. It does not appear if any polling outfit at all has been silly enough to ask secularists if they support religious objection over civil rights for this issue. Go figure.

[UrbScotty]

52. :-)

[AtheistCrusader]

47. 62% of white mainline Protestants. A vanishing group that went from 41m to 36m in 7 years.

Want me to go group by group?

White evangelical Protestants overwhelmingly oppose SSM let alone Title-2 like protections.

They number slightly over 100 million, depending on the classification of some fringes.

Math is hard.

[UrbScotty]

51. Off by more than 20 million

Evangelicals make up about 25.4% of the population. With about 318.9 million Americans, that means there are about 80 million evangelicals.

[AtheistCrusader]

53. That's one estimate.

Just skipped right over that bit about 'depending on classification' bit, didn't you?
White evangelical Protestant isn't a monolithic members only club like Catholics, with hard defined boundaries. There are no fringe Catholics. They are separate defined faiths like episcopalian.

There are fringe evangelicals. There's no IEEE specification for it.

Let's go with your number. ~80 million.
Go back to my link and do the math. How many white evangelical Protestants oppose same sex marriage entirely?
How many white mainline Protestants support?

The delta is enormous. Larger than pro wmp's entirely.

[UrbScotty]

54. No amount of deflecting will change the truth. Sorry. (nt)

[AtheistCrusader]

56. How the hell is that a deflection?

It speaks directly to my original criticism of the op article. Pro civil rights religious groups aren't leading the way and aren't responsible for the shift in America.

Sorry.

[UrbScotty]

57. Your criticism is based on what you want to be true - not on actual facts. (nt)

[AtheistCrusader]

59. A majority of Americans oppose title two like protections for same sex couples as a protected class.

That's a fact. I cited source. You didn't debunk the data, nor did you attempt to.

The remainder includes religious people with no opinion, and people who don't have a religion at all, thus, excluded from the remaining total.

So no, the facts are not on your side here. No matter how you slice it, pro civil rights religious people are outnumbered. Badly. By religious bigots.

Whereas, over in the secular camp, the bigots number 18% of the group. When I say 'yes I support civil rights, I'm an atheist', one can reliably infer the extent of that support from the simple fact that I am an atheist. That's the norm. That's the supermajority of secular people as a whole.

Of religious people, pro civil rights, akin to title two protections for same sex couples, is the outlier. The minority. The fully marginalized.

One would, statistically, reliably infer you are NOT in favor if all they know about you is; one is religious.

That's great that you are both religious and in favor of civil rights and presumably a progressive or close to. Great. We need more like you. A LOT more. Tens and tens of millions more.

Meanwhile, secularism is eating into the bigoted religious holdings at a much higher pace, more effectively in the courts, etc.

[AtheistCrusader]

48. The 'new generation' of milennials is overwhelmingly secular and support civil rights.

Too bad for you and the author of that article, wanting to give credit where it is not due.

[UrbScotty]

49. HA! A majority of millennials (like myself) are still religious!

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/religious-tradition/by/age-distribution/

And we support equality too!

[AtheistCrusader]

55. I used the wrong word.

Majority not the right word? By your own graph 'nones' in the millennial range outnumber the largest single religious entity by, eyeballing it, a little over 50%.

What is that called? Plurality?

[UrbScotty]

58. Adding together all religious groups, more millennials have a religious belief than don't.

And by a big margin.

That directly flies into the face of claims about millennials being non-religious.

[AtheistCrusader]

60. The religious have mutually exclusive beliefs.

Don't skip this point, this is big. In the other demographics we see the old trend. Secularism is outnumbered by many major religions. That's changed. We're now bigger than ANY one of them, and some of them combined. That's new. That's in their generation.

That's a big damn deal

And what I mean by 'mutually exlcusive', evangelicals think, for the most part, Catholics are going to hell. Etc. to the evangelical, an un-saved Jew might as well be an atheist. (I realize some are, culture/ethnicity/religion)

[UrbScotty]

62. Believers are believers. And 2/3 of millennials are believers! :-)

[AtheistCrusader]

63. You say 'sorry' I say 'good' because that population is trending down.

[UrbScotty]

64. You know what's good? Young people (who mostly believe in God) support marriage equality!

Most of us on DU believe that marriage equality is a very good thing!

[AtheistCrusader]

65. Belief in god carries all sorts of odd baggage.

I consider UU's to be least problematic, but they are one of the tiny tiny unknown minority religious groups BECAUSE they are so tolerant and varied. And that speaks volumes right there.

On this issue, religious millennials are better than most, statistically, but that doesn't mean they are awesome on each and every progressive topic.

I'll hang with the secularists, we trend WAY left of center on all sorts of stuff.

[UrbScotty]

66. If belief carries baggage, atheism must carry baggage too. (nt)

[AtheistCrusader]

67. Why? Atheism isn't a belief.

It's a lack of belief.

Secular Humanism or other belief structures of a secular nature might carry baggage. Such as, a manifest destiny or over-value of humanity over other species. Something to be aware of.

[UrbScotty]

68. There are many beliefs. If everyone else's beliefs have baggage (as you suggest), then

the same has to be true of atheism.

Superiority doesn't work around here.

[AtheistCrusader]

69. Except atheism isn't a belief.

A-theism. Without.

[UrbScotty]

72. There's no dodging it. Goose, gander. :-)

[AtheistCrusader]

73. Basic english.

[UrbScotty]

74. :-)

[AtheistCrusader]

75. Well, if it pleases you to be wrong, be my guest.

[UrbScotty]

77. Wanting something to be wrong, doesn't make it so.

[AtheistCrusader]

79. Says the one pretending a lack of theistic belief is a belief of its own.

[Leontius]

40. The AP didn't make the full of shit statement

you did.

[AtheistCrusader]

44. Prove it

[rug]

3. K&R

On to the Greatest Page.

[hrmjustin]

7. Good article! Cameron Partridge preached at my parish's pride celebration.

Great preacher.

[UrbScotty]

9. Glad to hear you liked hearing him! (nt)

[LostOne4Ever]

35. ...

[center][/center]

[UrbScotty]

37. :-)

[LostOne4Ever]

38. :P

[UrbScotty]

42. :-)

[LostOne4Ever]

50. That is sooooo 2000 and late...

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Today it is all about the hair...[/font]