ESM student: Teacher berated me for sitting for Pledge of Allegiance

[rug]

ESM senior Leah Hobson, who says she was berated for not standing during the Pledge of Allegiance in her school. (Submitted photo)

By Elizabeth Doran | [e-mail]
on October 30, 2015 at 2:26 PM, updated October 30, 2015 at 11:25 PM

An East Syracuse Minoa high school senior said she was berated in class by her teacher after she refused to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance with the other students.

Leah Hobson, 17, said the health teacher called her "disrespectful" and "selfish" because she chose to sit during the pledge Oct. 20. She says he used profanities while scolding her and singled her out in front the class.

Hobson said when she pointed out the Supreme Court ruling that upholds students' right to abstain from the pledge, he told her "I don't care about the law."

She said she never stands for or recites the pledge because she objects to the "under God" phrase.

http://www.syracuse.com/schools/index.ssf/2015/10/esm_student_teacher_berated_me_for_sitting_for_pledge_of_allegiance.html

[dembotoz]

1. in high school during nam 3 or us in my high school homeroom never stood for it

we called ourselves the south east corner minority of homeroom 43
we were grouped together by chance (alphabetical seating) nothing punitive

my homeroom teacher a dear dear shop teacher who was head of the dept. looked at us quizzically the first time or 2
but never said anything or hassled up in any way shape or form...

a couple students thought we were perhaps odd (we actually were) but never a big deal

i feel with for this brave girl

[rug]

6. I haven't said it in years.

I was at the County Democratic Club last week and they always say it there too. And I always don't. No big deal.

[Enthusiast]

44. That was back when some of our freedom(s) were intact.

[Lucky Luciano]

2. Good for her! nt

[trusty elf]

3. I wish we could grow up.....

Does one really need to pledge allegiance to the friggin' flag? What other countries do this? North Korea? China? Roosha?

[rug]

7. Ironically, the phrase under God was added in the 1950s to ferret ot Commnist school teachers.

[newfie11]

23. I've never understood it either.

[Chemisse]

4. I object to the 'under god' phrase too.

But I stand, because it's part of my job as a teacher - lol! (Although I would anyway, out of respect the other people's feelings).

If a student stays seated, I ask that student to please stand, out of respect. I know I can't force the student to stand up, but I hope they will. Because if one student sits it out, then others start to think it's uncool to stand, and next thing you know the entire class is essentially flipping the bird to the Pledge of Allegiance.

Obviously beratement such as described here is not the right response.

[eggplant]

28. And if they all sat it out, that would be bad because...? n/t

[Chemisse]

108. Because it would make me look bad as a teacher, and thus my job could be on the line.

I don't have tenure, so any little thing that displeases the administration is cause for 'nonrenewal'.

[pangaia]

43. If your comment is serious I could not possibly disagree more.

How can sitting show lack of respect for "other people's feelings?"

"... if one student sits it out, then others start to think it's uncool to stand, and next thing you know the entire class is essentially flipping the bird to the Pledge of Allegiance. "

Oh my heavens no, can't have that, now can we.

[Chemisse]

113. How do you think you would feel if you were a teenager

And you believed in patriotism, and you stood for the pledge, but the kid next to you sat it out, and gave you a little smirk, like you're an idiot for standing?

That's the respect I'm talking about. A lot of kids come from families who have very strong patriotic feelings. I don't want to see them hurt or feel intimidated.

Now maybe you don't care about the feelings of kids like that, because they are likely right-wingers in the making, but I care about ALL my students.

[Goblinmonger]

115. Except those that sit.

They can't possibly have feelings that could be hurt?

[Chemisse]

125. I just asked a girl to please stand last week.

As a follow up, (because I am acutely aware that students have a right to NOT stand, and I don't want to interfere with that if it is sincerely felt) I asked if there was some reason she didn't want to stand. She said she was tired and didn't feel like standing up.

Since I get up at 4:30 am and have to be on the top of my game all day, I didn't really worry too much about her 'feelings' of lethargy.

That's pretty typical.

[AtheistCrusader]

136. Oh, no. Not 4:30. Anything but that.

Did you consider the consequences to that student from peers now that you singled her out in front of the class?

Glad my kid isn't in your class.

[pangaia]

129. Exactly.

Who in the world are these people demanding people stand up because.... blah, blah.. beyond the pale...

[pangaia]

130. What does it mean "believe in patriotism?"

Is that like believing in god?

I will tell you a story-- some years ago I went to my first baseball game in may years ( I LOVE baseball--)... a low minor league game. After the 7th inning I got up to go take a leak. As I was walking out the announcer said, "Everyone please stand and remove your hats while we honor our country with the singing of God Bless America." I was thinking, "Huh?" Everybody stood up (as they were directed) and took their hats off. I kept walking. Some Yahoo yelled at me "UNCOVER. RESPECT YOUR COUNTRY!!" I kept walking. It got worse. I was spit on.

What does a baseball game have to do with a Christian prayer?

I realized if I wanted to keep going to that ball park, which I did, I would be required to stand up and take off my hat for a Christian prayer.. OR,, the same if everyone were saying the Pleeeedge of Alleeegiance....
So every 7th inning I either made a beeline for the concession stand, the bathroom OR.. stood still and took off my fucking hat !!

[pokerfan]

138. A few years back...

The most patriotic moments at Yankee Stadium can also be the most confining.

Seconds before “The Star-Spangled Banner” and “God Bless America” are played, police officers, security guards and ushers turn their backs to the American flag in center field, stare at fans moving through the stands and ask them to stop. Across the stadium’s lower section, ushers stand every 20 feet to block the main aisle with chains.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/05/12/333865/-NY-Yankees-enforce-God-Country-with-chains

[pangaia]

139. As any METS fan will say, THE EVIL EMPIRE...

Notice the 'moat' around those front section seats.

[Mariana]

132. So which is it?

Are the majority of your students so unpatriotic that if one student sits out, the whole class will then think it's cool "flip the bird" at the pledge, and thereby put your job at risk? Or is it that most of them are so patriotic that their feeling would be hurt if another student chose not to participate?

Either way, it sounds like a great opportunity for a lesson. "You know that word 'liberty" in the pledge you just recited? That means other people are free to do things with which you don't agree. Students are not required to stand for the pledge. It is their right to choose not to participate, and they don't have to justify their decision to exercise that right to anyone."

[AtheistCrusader]

135. I never stood for it, nor said the 'under god' phrase.

No one cared or made a big deal out of it.

Respect is earned. Not forced to protect the fragile feelings of a super-majority.

[Goblinmonger]

92. As a teacher, you can't even ask that they stand out of respect.

They have the right to not stand. Students have so few rights inside the school building, it's sad when the few left are taken away. Let them exercise their limited free speech. Once you start talking about respect, you are putting pressure on them and making them think they don't have the freedom of speech that they do in this instance. And for your own self, you are opening yourself up for a formal complaint from the student.

For the record, I've been a teacher for 25 years.

[Chemisse]

105. I have every right to ask.

I don't have the right to insist.

And, on edit: I'm sure you have tenure. I don't.

[Goblinmonger]

107. The line between "ask" and "insist" is pretty grey

when it comes from a teacher.

Every school age kid is going to understand that you are "insisting" that they stand when you "ask" them? Every school age kid is going to know that there won't be repercussions for not standing after their teacher "asks" them to stand?

[Chemisse]

109. I teach high school.

They are not as timid as you seem to think.

[Goblinmonger]

114. I teach high school, too.

There are a great many students who think teachers "hate" them for silly stupid reasons. Many of them have a very low emotional IQ. Many of them think teachers are just part of the system and are out to get them. You said above that your school treats the Pledge as a prayer and you do what you do because you don't want to be seen as someone who isn't modeling the right behavior. Are you now telling me that even though you are feeling the pressure of the school and giving in to it, these high school kids are going to being able to have you "ask" them to stand but they are not going to give into the same pressure that you are? Seems to me like they may think you are just another one of the people that sees the Pledge as a prayer and they will stand because if they don't, you will find a way to punish them--exactly like you are thinking the school district will find a way to punish you if you don't "ask" the students to stand.

I get it. You teach in a shitty district in this regard. But if you are giving in to the pressures are you seriously thinking the kids won't? Let them exercise their free speech.

[rug]

121. What do yo think of a teacher who faces away from the students so they don't see he's not saying it?

Is that good "modeling behavior"?

[Goblinmonger]

122. I end up facing away from them

because the flag in my room is at the front. I'm at the front setting up the day because the announcements don't miraculously start when the bell rings so I use that time to pull back to their minds what we talked about the day before or whenever we need to draw from for that day. Then, when they finally start the Pledge (which is sometimes 10 minutes into class--which is why I don't just stand there doing nothing), I turn to face the flag. That I'm not saying it isn't noticed because of that reality. Some notice. Some don't. If I were to face away from all students, I would be staring at the white board which would look ridiculous.

Here's another one for you: at times I do say it (why? no clue) but I don't say "under God." Some kids have noticed that, too. I don't hop up on the table at the front of the room and face them and say everything else loudly so it is clear to all that I'm not saying "under God." Should I be doing that to model good behavior?

[Chemisse]

127. I don't really care if you say 'under god' or not.

Technically, if the pledge is being said over the announcements, nobody really has to say it at all, just stand and listen.

I always do (although when 'off duty' I never say it) because a few of the kids do and I don't want to leave them hanging. I doubt they would notice if I omitted a couple of words.

[AtheistCrusader]

137. Which is why when I was in middle school, we stopped doing it altogether.

But, the PacNW is generally quite a bit more progressive than most of the nation, so maybe it's no surprise.

[Chemisse]

126. Haha!

I guess if they THINK he's saying it, then they are getting the message the school board wants them to get.

[Chemisse]

128. That's very true. It comes up now and then that a student is intimidated by me,

when i feel like I am about the least intimidating teacher ever.

The kind of student that wants to make a statement by sitting (as opposed to being too lazy to get upright at 7:30 am) has strong feelings about it, and will also be willing to state her concerns.

I'm just thankful my new school does not require a daily moment of silence. It is nightmarish to try to keep a classful of students quiet for 30 seconds, and the justification for it is so weak (really? somebody wants to use this time to pray?) that there isn't any student who does this willingly.

[pangaia]

131. Ah ha ! So it's about tenure..

And for me it was about continuing to go to the ball park.
So are we both being forced to do something.

And this leads to..... bad, bad stuff...

[niyad]

93. you forgot the sarcasm thingy, yes? because you cannot possibly believe that drivel about

Last edited Mon Nov 2, 2015, 12:07 PM - Edit history (1)

"flipping the bird" to the pledge (which is a loyalty oath, which is prohibited by the constitution)

[Chemisse]

106. I don't think you understand.

Personally, I would be happy to never hear of the Pledge of Allegiance again, much less have to stand AND say it.

I work for a school district that things the Pledge of Allegiance is so sacred it's practically a prayer! I don't want to be the teacher whose classes ignore it because I didn't 'model' the correct behavior. No it would not be my fault, but administrators don't look at things that way.

Frankly, I don't want to be the teacher who loses her job. I do not have tenure.

[niyad]

134. oh, I understand about worrying about one's job. the "flipping the bird" thing has nothing

to do with one's job.

[handmade34]

5. yup...

did this in HS years ago and got similar treatment

[rug]

8. And cumpulsory participation is iillegal.

http://education.findlaw.com/student-rights/school-prayer-and-the-pledge-of-allegiance-background.html

[40RatRod]

9. No excuses for the teacher,but...

...standing, unless disabled, is a simple gesture of respect for that beautiful flag that represents our nation.

[rug]

12. There's the rub. What it often represents.

[giftedgirl77]

13. No, no it's not. It's a blind pledge for nothing.

I say this as someone who retired from the military & knows all to well what this silly ass pledge stands for. My son doesn't stand for it & when his teacher decided to berate him, i marched my happy ass in there in uniform & set that shit straight.

Maybe when they take the god bullshit out of it we'll reconsider.

[giftedgirl77]

19. Lol, try 3 separate SCOTUS rulings that say otherwise.

No student has to explain anything to you. Every student has the right to sit quietly instead of participating. You don't get to make that decision.

[eggplant]

29. Good luck in court.

[Human101948]

65. You are part of what is wrong in this country...

You think you are the law. If anything you are the one that is showing disrespect for the Constitution and the principles upon which this nation claims to stand.

Your certificate says that you are a teacher, not an authoritarian enforcer.

If you don't like the laws of the land, go somewhere else where they tolerate and applaud your type of behavior. Maybe Somalia? Saudi Arabia?

[Human101948]

79. What district is that?

Maybe we can set up a test case with the ACLU. Then you won't have to illegally enforce the loyalty oath.

[rug]

32. Ok, now that's simple bullshit.

My class...
My rules...
Again...until they can present a viable argument as to why, THEY STAND...
I don't make them say anything if they don't want to...but
MY CLASS stands in unison...

If that's what you in fact do in your class you should be bounced from that class. And from this site.

[rug]

36. Ok. Does BM stand for the usual?

[giftedgirl77]

37. I'm in SC, you are clueless.

Go ahead & try that shit.

Here's one of the rulings.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

1943 bud, you may want to get with the times.

[giftedgirl77]

51. Holy shite....a SCOTUS ruling is a SCOTUS ruling.

You want me to send you a westlaw link, is it going to make it anymore clearer to you. I hope your ass gets slapped with a lawsuit.

[brush]

63. Are you sure you're on the right site?

Those are some pretty hard right stances you're taking.

[pangaia]

58. Yikes, you are one scarry dude.. :>))))

"My students STAND "

Yea.. you tell 'em.

[Dale Neiburg]

60. 319 U.S. 624

The complete text of the SCOTUS decision in WV State Board of Education v. Barnette (together with 2 concurring opinions and Justice Frankfurter's dissent) is available at:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/319/624#writing-USSC_CR_0319_0624_ZD

[Laffy Kat]

71. Um, tyrants don't comply with laws...

Nice try, though.

[jtuck004]

40. Think of how well they will do on the planatation after 12 years of this. lol

Stalin would be proud.

[rug]

100. Twenty years of schooling and they put you on the day shift . . . .

[jtuck004]

112. Thank you for that. Part of the story of where we are...

Oddly, I read the sign he was holding as "Get Bern". A President Bernie Sanders endorsement from Bob Dylan...then I took a second look.

Funny how the mind shows us what's inside. <g>

[pangaia]

46. That's an example of the danger of the military.

[pangaia]

88. Well, well..

[Orrex]

56. Anyone know where I can get a tea-roll?

Still hungry after breakfast, and I figured that I might find a tea-roll around here.



Thanks!

[ColesCountyDem]

77. MIRTle the waitress is looking hard for one.

She can't find a roll, but she thinks she may see a pizza.

[eggplant]

83. As an aside, what is the most efficient way to drop a hint to MIRT? n/t

[ColesCountyDem]

86. DU mail to one of the members. n/t

[Heddi]

87. PM a MIRT member

I already have.

Go to the Announcements forum, there'll be an announcement thread.

Here's the latest one
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10134723

[thesquanderer]

59. re: "it's just a pledge" - do pledges mean anything?

Not that most kids have a clue what they're pledging.

Personally, I don't think we need to pledge our allegiance to the republic... the republic should be pledging its allegiance to US! Something about "we the people..."

[MustBeTheBooz]

90. Thank you! n/t

[pangaia]

45. I don't find it so beautiful.

So, may I please sit? Thank you.

I simply find the entire exercise infantile.

[40RatRod]

110. I'm just an old Sarge and 20 year military vet...

...and to this day, I get a lump in my throat when I say the Pledge of Allegiance and get tears every time I hear the Star Spangled Banner.
Sorry you have never experienced these feelings.

[niyad]

94. read "an indigenous people's history of the united states" and see if you feel like making

that statement again.

[Mike__M]

104. Yeah, "Justice for all" ya know

When I attend city council meetings, I usually stand quietly out of respect for my fellow citizens, but my hands are clasped behind my back and my lips don't move.
I try to think of it as a wish list: we can hope to have all those nice things in the Pledge -- some day (except the underDog part).

[niyad]

133. under CAT would be MUCH better!

[giftedgirl77]

10. My son is 13, last year he decided he didn't want to stand for it.

His teacher decided she was going to lecture him about being a disappointment to his school & country. I walked my happy ass into the school with copies of the SCOTUS rulings & set that shit straight. I also demanded a public apology for my son.

[DFW]

17. Good for you!!

I wish every parent whose child was harassed by their school for this did the same!

[giftedgirl77]

21. I had to go back in & deal with it again bc she decided to go

after another student for the same thing. I made myself very clear that if I heard anything else I would be filing a formal claim. I can't stand it when teachers try to force their will on what they consider helpless.

[DFW]

25. Well, then good for you again.

I can't stand it when people in authority take out their own petty personal frustrations on children who have no means of defense.

[giftedgirl77]

38. Lol, there's one of those unfortunate souls right on this thread.

It's the little things in life that keep me going.

[DFW]

42. Well, then allow me to lead the applause

My elder daughter had some difficulties here in high school in Germany, but luckily of a purely academic nature (teachers of "English" that spoke and wrote it far worse than she did, and punished her for knowing more than they did). The "patriotic" and "religious" crap doesn't make it here, fortunately.

[pangaia]

48. triple bravo!!!!

[brush]

64. I like that.

[DFW]

11. Some control freak teacher thinks he overrides the Supreme Court

I wish he could be put away for violating her civil rights.

The pledge as a mandatory ritual is outdated anyway, and schoolkids usually only recite it mumbling in boredom.

I've told this before, but when my elder daughter spent a semester of high school in the USA as her overseas high school experience (encouraged here in Germany), I tried to prepare her as much as I could. I accompanied her to Dallas and spent the first week with her there to make sure she could adjust. Dallas is not Düsseldorf, after all.

After the first few days, she said she was adjusting fine, but she was bewildered by the ritual chanting they did every morning.

Ritual chanting? I though the Supreme Court had pretty much put an end to that argument. I asked her if she was describing it right? She said yes, the whole class did ritual chanting every morning. This was a public high school, not a Buddhist high school, so I asked what they were chanting.

She said it started out with everyone standing and chanting in unison, "I spread the peaches," and went on from there. I couldn't believe this. I asked, "They all stand up and chant 'I spread the peaches?' What else do they do?"

She said basically nothing. They all put their hands on their chests and mumbled "I spread the peaches" and she couldn't make out the rest. The hands on the chests lit a bulb, and I figured it out. I had tried to prepare her for public school in the USA, but I had completely forgotten that they did this. I asked her if by any chance they were saying "I pledge allegiance?" Not knowing the English words "pledge" or "allegiance," she said it could be. She didn't know what it was all about, and was too embarrassed to ask someone what it all meant, as all the other kids in her class seemed to think it was perfectly normal. Having grown up in Germany, where overt displays of patriotism are considered reminders of the Nazi past, and are deliberately not emphasized, she was not prepared for any such thing. After I explained it, she understood, but still thought it was kind of a strange thing to do.

[rug]

14. The group pressure, as a child or an adult, is enormous. Good for her!

And, "I spread the peaches,"

[DFW]

16. At least she asked!

The rest of the class was so bored being forced to recite the pledge every day, they apparently mumbled it to the point of it being nearly completely unintelligible. At first she felt foolish not having the faintest idea what was going on, but her curiosity got the best of her. I taught her English as best I could over here, but the words "pledge" and "allegiance" rarely (if ever!) come up in conversation with a 16 year old girl. She had no earthly clue why this was happening, so she just thought she heard words closest to ones she knew.

Ergo: "I spread the peaches."

[Yorktown]

20. It's a bit more complicated than that

As much as I am wary of nationalism, it seems to me the risk is that nature hates void.
Leave a void (like no pledge), and any crackpot allegiance will spring up.

Now that Communism is dead, nihilistic rebellion will seek harbor in religious allegiance. Which, IMHO, is far worse than allegiance to a Constitution which is a fair human accomplishment.

Granted, the Constitution never was or will be perfect (slavery, etc), but it's always been built on some of the best values the Enlightenment had to offer.

And most schools accomodate people ommitting the words under god (maybe not in the Deep South)

Happy Hallowe'en (why didn't DU create a seasonal smiley? )

[rug]

26. Here:

[Yorktown]

124. Oh, thanks

[pangaia]

50. "Leave a void (like no pledge), and any crackpot allegiance will spring up. "

Really?

[Yorktown]

123. That's my worry

[giftedgirl77]

22. I started this fight in the 5th grade with my youngest.

You sir don't get to decide. The SCOTUS has already ruled that nobody has to stand up. It's a good way to get a complaint lodged against you or a formal ACLU lawsuit. My son just keeps the SCOTUS rulings with him so if a teacher gets snotty he just hands it to them, asks if there's going to be any more issues & if they keep running their mouths I get involved. Know your place, indoctrinating our kids isn't it.

[Igel]

73. I tell my kids the following.

Standing during a ceremony does two things. I shows respect for those who are participating and avoids making yourself the center of attention. It can also avoid snide remarks that are disruptive. A number of "free speech" issues that provoke disruptions are similarly frowned upon.

Standing during a ceremony doesn't mean you're participating in it, even if the only outward sign of participation is "please rise." Don't say the pledge or "amen" or "I solemnly swear". Nobody's going to notice. Don't even necessarily put your hand over your chest or raise your right hand or close your eyes or bow your head. Again, nobody's going to notice. You're not participating, and you're not saying, "Hey, look at me!" Nor can anybody reasonably say you're trying to provoke another student or teacher. I don't know how many times I've been sworn in as a potential juror based upon just standing there. Perhaps if I'm all caught up in what others might think of me I'd make a scene, but my self-opinion and perception of personal dignity is more important to me than what they think.

I disallow speaking during such ceremonies, even if I disagree with them. It egoistically elevates the individual over the group, it shows disrespect for those who are participating, and it often blurs the line between fighting words (in practice) and freedom of speech. A student angered by this isn't going to be able to focus on the lesson, and so angering another student and knowing that you're angering another student is, in my view, as bad a violation of that student's civil rights as forcing the non-pledger to participate.

[Goblinmonger]

97. I have no problem telling them to not talk

But not standing is exercising free speech. It is not "Hey, look at me!" If they are engaging in some disruption while exercising their free speech to not stand, then that should be addressed. You have no idea why they aren't standing. You have no idea of what they are objecting to. Maybe you could have a positive discussion with them in class where they get to talk about their feeling if they wish, but telling them they should stand so that it doesn't offend other people, when we are talking about the Pledge, is kind of silly. Especially when this is school and not someone's funeral where standing out of respect could be understood and isn't something forced on you by the government.

[rug]

24. The law is pretty clear though.

After 9/11 the Pennsylvania legislature passed a law mandating the Pledge of Allegiance in its schools. The Third Circuit Court of Appeals decisively struck it down.

https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-praises-appeals-court-decision-striking-down-pennsylvanias-mandatory-pledge-allegiance-law

The broader question is whether simple obedience is a greater value than a questioning mind. I understand what you said upthread about students being able to explain their views, but, do we want our children questioned in school about their political and religious opinions?

[Goblinmonger]

98. We have to in Wisconsin

State law. Either the Pledge of the National Anthem every day.

Personally, nothing makes kids think that the Pledge is stupid than making them say it every day.

[rug]

101. Do you lead it in yor class?

[Goblinmonger]

102. No. At our school it is done over the PA.

I stand. I don't say it. I'm usually at the front of the class turned to the flag so most don't realize that I'm not.

[rug]

103. It's ridiculous. They're pledging allegiance to a PA speaker.

[digonswine]

116. I didn't realize that it was mandatory-

I was just considering approaching the principal about it being a silly waste of time, but I guess I won't.

I do as you appear to--I stand and face the flag. I don't put my hand on my heart and I don't say the pledge.

One person who sometimes does the announcements does it r-e-a-l-l-y slowly--like that gives it more meaning. Just a bit less time that could be used better doing something else.

It reminds me of something else I noticed. I teach high school, but in early elementary grades, the teachers, in order to get the class's attention and focus, clap a pattern and the entire class claps the pattern in response and focus up. I have done this with the 10th graders on occasion--they still automatically respond like they did previously. It's just a habit. At least the clapping has an actual function!

[Goblinmonger]

117. I think the law goes back to 2000 or something.

It's a stupid law, but it is what it is.

Sometimes one of the choir groups sings the National Anthem and that's kind of cool anyway.

We have the clap thing, too, from elementary. It's like two longer claps and then three quicker claps.

[digonswine]

118. I'll talk to the choir director-

that sounds like a way cooler thing to do than the pledge. I imagine the band could do it, too.

[Goblinmonger]

119. We just got a new choir director

but last year, they sang it at least once a week. Which was a nice break from the daily Pledge monotony. They usually did it on Wednesday.

[procon]

31. In the 60's lots of my fellow classmates objected to that pledge.

We were anti war, socialists, Marxists, feminists, activists and liberals, and we raised a fist, we turned our backs, we sat down, we held up protest signs and chanted our own mantras when it came time to do the USA loyalty pledge. This was in the day when schools were demanding that students must sign a loyalty oath that they weren't communists and promise not to overthrow the US govt. In my naive and youthful exuberance, I hated that stuff because it just seemed so unAmerican.

Most teachers were livid, but for all the wrong reasons. They did not question the status quo, they never asked the whys and hows, they didn't even do the basic critical thinking exercises they drummed into us students. Still, it was inspiring when the majority of students in a classroom would all stand up in solidarity with fists held high and their head bowed.

[rug]

35. They pinched themselves and squealed . . . .

[FairWinds]

34. I'm a Vietnam Vet and fully support kids who do not stand or

recite the pledge.

For one thing, why are kids forced to say ". . liberty and justice for all." ??

while Richard Armitage and Scooter Libby walk free and Chelsea Manning rots in prison.

the oligarchs have made liberty and justice nothing more than a sick joke.

It's like being forced to stand and recite "BLACK IS WHITE!!"

Veterans For Peace

[Enthusiast]

47. Oh, baby! +1!

[pangaia]

57. +1000000000000000000000

[Grins]

39. The Pledge; America's "Loyalty Oath"

[Skeeter Barnes]

54. welcome, friend!

[FairWinds]

62. It is NOT, as you put it, a "simple pledge."

You are forcing those youngsters to stand respectfully

FOR A LIE !! (i.e., JUSTICE FOR ALL)

Which of course produces a great deal of cognitive dissonance once they catch on.

And bringing in social promotions is a totally irrelevant deflection - shame on you.

[brush]

67. It's quite apparent that you drank all the Kool Aid.

[FairWinds]

111. Kool Aid? What the heck it THAT supposed to mean?

How about if we wrestle with the issue,
and abjure the gratuitous insults?

The Pledge is also used to coerce people into supporting militarism.

A closely related issue - Veterans Day - I'm the author.

http://www.peacevoice.info/2014/11/08/reclaim-armistice-day-and-honor-the-real-heroes/

Veterans For Peace

[brush]

120. What's with the insults yourself if you don't know what you're talking about?

The post I responded to was deleted by the poster who had posted several posts where he took extreme right wing positions on demanding that all his students stand and recite the pledge of allegiance even if they didn't want to.

In the post in question he commented that all of us who took opposition to his extreme right wing stances had drank the Kool-Aid, hence my post about him already having drank all the brainwashing Kool-Aid.

Look at that thread again. You'll notice that that poster auto-removed all of his right wing posts, I guess because the push back, including mine, was so strongly against him.

We're on the same side, buddy, at least I think so.

[Skeeter Barnes]

53. I did that in the third grade. You would have thought I'd just murdered somebody

by the way the teacher reacted. It's a weird ritual, IMO.

[vlyons]

61. The US flag is empty of inherent self-existence.

I'm sharing with you the great wisdom teaching of Mahayana Buddhism. It is called "shunyata," poorly translated into English as "emptiness." And it goes like this ... All phenomena without exception are empty of independent self-existence. That means that all phenomena without exception arise from previous causes and conditions and are composed of subparts. In the case of the flag, it was woven together with individual threads, which were spun from cotton, which was harvested from a plant, which was previously a seed, and so on. Moreover, the "flag" is composed of threads, which are composed of atoms, which are composed of subatomic particles, and so on ... "American Flag" is a mental construct, an idea, which we humans use for convenience of communicating. And onto the object that we label "flag," different people impute different characteristics that symbolize other mental constructs and emotions. But those characteristics and emotions do not inherently exist in the flag. If that were so, then everyone would experience the same reactions to it. But some people burn it, some cherish and display it, and some are indifferent to it. Your teacher did not respect your point of view, to which you are entitled to hold. In his mind, he was trying to instill his personal sense of patriotism into you. He sure went about it in an extremely oppressive manner. If you were my kid, I'd have a conference with him, and tell him that if he ever humiliates you or another student, I'd be complaining to the principal and the school board, and make sure my complaint was recorded in his personnel file.

Were I you, I would stand as a show of tolerance for other folks' beliefs about the flag. I typically do not pledge "allegiance," as I have other religious vows that I have taken. I assume you know that the pledge of allegiance was a marketing tactic used by a flag manufacturer long ago to sell flags. People get extremely emotional about the flag, and sometimes they cannot control themselves, as emotions over-power their reason.

[dpatbrown]

66. "under God"

I taught for 26 years, and not once, never, did my class recite the pledge. My reasons were that it perpetuates myths. To say "and to the republic for which it stands" is not true, nor is "with liberty and justice for all".

[DRoseDARs]

68. "I don't care about the law." Posters here have said as much.

No one demanding blind obedience and prostration to the flag deserve the freedoms it stands for.

[JHB]

69. Why does the school hate the pledge as it was said during WW2?

[TlalocW]

70. By middle school

We weren't pledging to the flag anymore. Before that, for first through third grade, I thought we were, "Invisible under God." It was just a rote thing you mumbled everyday that didn't mean anything. I'd like to think I wouldn't have done it in high school at least as I was one of the few in my small town community who argued it was legal to burn the flag. As for now, I might stand, but I won't pledge.

TlalocW

[matt819]

89. Good for her

Having to repeat the pledge of allegiance every day is like having to say your marriage vows every morning or the president and soldiers and certainly government employees to repeat their oath of office every day. Even most religions don't ask you to repeat your vows of faith every day, happy enough with once a week.

[niyad]

91. loyalty oaths are prohibited in the constitution. I never stood for it, either.

a teacher who says "I don't care about the law" needs to be in a new job, immediately. and one who behaved as he did, swearing at the girl, etc., needs an attitude adjustment, also immediately.

[deurbano]

95. I got kicked out of a school assembly in 11th grade for not standing for the pledge.

I had stopped standing in 10th grade, but no one noticed before then. My two youngest children went to a private Mandarin immersion school for the first few years of their education, and at some point I realized they had never learned the pledge. My son didn't switch to public school until 7th grade, and I don't think he can accurately recite the pledge even now, since they only recited it at assemblies by then, but my daughter switched for third grade, when it was still a daily ritual.

Also... our daughter is adopted from Vietnam, so she and her brother also briefly attended Saturday Vietnamese school, and while I didn't understand the language, at one school event I realized my children were learning how to pledge allegiance to the flag of "South Vietnam"! This was before they switched to public school, so it was the only pledge they had learned, yet.

Around that time, my mom wanted to take the kids to church for Easter, and this was another ritual with which they were not familiar. She found some evangelical church in some tiny town off I-5 in CA, half way between our homes. The church had a Sunday School and Easter Egg hunt. My son (4 years older than his little sister) was mortified when she kept asking stuff, like, "Who is Jesus?" "What do you mean he is here with us now?" "Where is he?"

So, my daughter had no idea who Jesus was... and she couldn't say the Pledge of Allegiance... but she could recite the pledge to the flag of the "country" of South Vietnam, and knew all about Monkey King! (My work here is done...)

[niyad]

96. I wonder how many of these whack jobs would be so enamoured of the pledge if they knew

that it was penned by a "GASP"-- SOCIALIST.

[Humanist_Activist]

99. We stopped saying the pledge when we got into middle school, the Pledge is creepy as all hell...

nationalistic bullshit with religious shit thrown in later.