Religion
Related: About this forum5 Reasons Why I Hate Religious Christianity
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tyler-speegle/5-reasons-why-i-hate-religious-christianity_b_9845004.htmlWhen I say religious, I'm not talking about a denomination, a doctrine or even a box you might check off on some paperwork. No, when I say religious what I am talking about is a belief that that says your performance, your devotion, your practices or your morals makes you right with God. The idea that righteousness is achieved, rather than received.
That kind of belief - that kind of religion - will suck the life out of you. I know from firsthand experience. Thankfully, I now know the truth that God wants us to live in relationship, not religion. Losing your religion may sound like a strange idea so here are 5 reasons that I hope will convince you that you should.
...
Religion doesn't save, Jesus does.
Well I'm so glad he didn't "go off the deep end" and become an atheist. The horror! Fortunately there has never been anything bad that followed someone saying that they "know the truth (of what) God wants."
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whatthehey
(3,660 posts)And seems to have no more clue than the earlier tranche how to explain a "relationship" which involves no direct contact or communication with the other party, the presence of which which is claimed only by hucksters or asylum inmates. Even DU apologists seem loath to support the concept of speech from, let alone two way conversation with, the divine. Absent both that and physical contact, the definition of "relationship" involved here remains mighty strange, unless we have "relationships" with Superman and Wolverine.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)I can't even get a dial tone.
How can I have a relationship with Jesus when there is total silence from him and no evidence presented to me that he exists?
Can't see him, can't hear him, can't touch him. No evidence that there is an entity called "Jesus" or "God" that communicates with me.
seekthetruth
(504 posts)Other animals may have one or two. We're obviously more developed than single-celled organisms or other life forms, but do you honestly think that human existence is the summit of existence?
A short time ago (with relation to the "whole" of time), we thought that the earth was flat. If you tried to explain red shift or blue shift frequency, gravity, or the chemicals that made up various objects someone living, say, in mid century 1200s about such topics they'd have no comparative comprehension. Do you think humankind, in likewise fashion, truly is at the pinnacle of knowledge at its current condition?
Some choose not to believe in a diety or spiritual consciousness. Others do. But the biggest mistake is thinking that with your intellect that you have the ultimate in logical reasoning since, comparatively to other potential life out there, you're still as insignificant as an ant.
If you want to believe that the whole of our existence is by chance then go ahead. You're just making a huge leap given that your experience is based on your interpretation of the environment around you, and the preconceived ideas that you have through your own experience - much of which was formed by other similarly finite humans.
Following Christ isn't about trying to be perfect. It's rather accepting your own faults with an understanding that you require forgiveness for all of the wrong you commit.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)I can accept my own faults. I know that nobody is perfect. I don't know what "being saved" means. I should be able to think rationally that lying, cheating, stealing, and murdering are bad and should not be done, because I have a conscience.
I happen to think that most religion is wishful thinking and mass persuasion. "See, if you pray hard enough, Jesus will come into your heart." Whatever that means. Any Abrahamic theology or doctrine is absolutely abstract to me. It's abstract because I have had no experiences that let me know that there is a personal god. No experiences that tell me anything about correlation and causation in reference to god. Because of the abdication of personal responsibility of "It's God's will" no matter what happens.
I got baptised, prayed, did all the things they told me to do and nothing changed. I never felt different in any way. In fact I felt worse. Every time I heard a sermon I wished I could crawl in a hole and will myself to die, because I couldn't handle the pain of the lies they were telling me. I am not responsible for a couple of fruit-munching simpletons' actions in a fairy tale because they were disobedient. The only answer was to walk away completely from Christianity. And Abrahamic religion in general.
I think original sin is horribly damaging to peoples' psyches and they should have a little more dignity than being told we are worthless sinners. Original sin is a made up problem and substitutionary atonement is a made up solution to that problem.
Using your analogy, using scientific instruments to find red shift, do you have something I can use to find god?
Read Sigmund Freud, the Future of an Illusion. Some quotes here:
http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/77693-die-zukunft-einer-illusion
seekthetruth
(504 posts)What I'm telling you is that no human, with their own intellect, can reason beyond their own capacity. All human knowledge is from shared experiences, yes? You agree that all humans are fallible, yes? We are all finite in our understanding. You would very well be a totally different person had circumstances been different, but would you be you? Infinitesimal amounts of varying circumstances brought you and I here, messaging on this forum. Not saying all is planned - who I know to be God does limit himself. Else this would be a very different existence. There are a vast amount of variables that have to occur for all of this to be random.
Like I said, we perceive the world through a lens, and it's a shared lens based on our physiology. We are finite. How can you explain the vast amount of space in the universe, and actually think that our tiny, insignificant planet wasn't a planned construct who transcends our perception and understanding? Quite a huge leap.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)I know someone who would be happy to explain the Big Bang and the origin of the universe to you. He can talk about the strong nuclear force, gravity, general relativity, special relativity, and lots of other concepts in physics to you. Such as the Planck length, the Planck constant, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, the Schrodinger equation, the Compton wavelength, angular momentum, the deBroglie hypothesis about photons (light) acting like waves or particles, the Fitzgerald-Lorenz transformation in relativity when you near the speed of light, and anything else you want to know in quantum mechanics.
My husband has a B.S. and M.S. in physics and is fascinated with subatomic particles (quarks), their characteristics(spin, color, charm and strangeness), and the forces working at such tiny distances. The kind of stuff they are working on at CERN in Switzerland.
He'd be glad to discuss the forces with you. And he knows his calculus and other higher math pretty well. In college, he was known as "that guy that hangs out at the student union and talks in equations".
There are billions of galaxies, billions or trillions of stars and planets.
Our Sun is an average star, operating on nuclear fusion of hydrogen into helium at very high temperatures, and we are on a pretty average planet, especially since NASA has discovered a lot more planets around stars with their space telescopes. Basically, the further out into space we can see, the more it looks like our solar system and our earth are not exceptional.
Edwin Hubble, due to observing red shift, confirmed the Friedmann hypothesis of the expansion of space, based on general relativity, popularly known as the Big Bang. This was in 1931. The universe is expanding, and at this point it is 13.7 billion light-years across, as far as we know.
Thinking about huge distances in light-years and the formation of the universe is far more awe inspiring to me than old stories about a petty, small-minded mass murdering god in the bible who is supposedly the creator of ridiculous rules. Reading about all the pioneers of science and astronomy such as Galileo (held under house arrest by the church), Copernicus, Kepler (whose mother was imprisoned for years on suspicion of being a witch, Newton, Einstein, and many others, is inspiring. Fighting against a church who thought the world was flat and stamped out scientific investigation by imprisoning and barbecuing scientists, torturing them alive. We could not have landed humans on the moon without the foundations provided by the people I mentioned. Landing men on the moon is a glorious accomplishment based on Newton's laws of motion and Kepler's laws of planetary motion, among other things.
“How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, “This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant?” Instead they say, “No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.” A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.”
― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space
seekthetruth
(504 posts)I’ve heard of the teleological argument, and I do agree that there is a certain design to the physical things around us. My main point is that human beings are incredibly fallible, and interpret the things or events around them based on their own perceptions and their past experiences.
For instance, I could have been a totally different person if I had grown up in ancient Rome during significant times of turmoil. My experiences would have been totally different, and I would have had a view of the world that would be completely foreign from my current view. Experiences shape our understanding and personality. We have traits, sure, but those only affect how we might react to stimuli.
Imagine one of the architects of one of the Great Pyramids. Undoubtedly, the individual was incredibly intelligent for their time, but they lacked knowledge of various tools and methodologies to construct the pyramids more efficiently. So, the person had absolutely no idea how to comprehend what a computer could do in designing one of the pyramids. Does that mean computers couldn't exist? Obviously, no.
Likewise, we’re shaped by the external stimuli that we are able to perceive. You mentioned several scientific discoveries, which no doubt are incredible and significant. But, they are derived by human, finite intelligence which encompasses information taken in and processed by a human - who may or may not have preconceived assumptions or judgements that they are entirely unaware of. Imagine an ant crawling on the floor of your room right now (or wherever you are). Can that being possibly understand what comprises the rings of Saturn? Likewise, do you actually think that we have a complete understanding of the universe and our existence? If so, then, again, your line of thinking is taking a huge, illogical leap.
I hear you about some of the events that occurred in the Old Testament. However, as many Christians assume, what we know now as the Bible was actually written by authors who were witness to many events based on their understanding. Those events could have occurred in many different ways, and were attributable to a variety of reasons. They were interpretations of events based on the authors' individual perspectives.
My point is that no one alive today was experiencing life more than 120 or so years ago. We’re incredibly finite. We assume that we’re at the pinnacle of existence because of our assumed control over our lives. It’s in our instincts to believe we are in a stable environment because naturally that is what we crave. And, each generation of human beings have believed that their society or place in life was, in turn, the pinnacle of existence. Again, we perceive things through our own lens. My argument for a god is that since we are finite in our abilities, whatever decisions, assumptions, or judgements we make about the information that we take in through our senses is so incredibly limited to the scope of the entirety of the universe.
Isn’t it amazingly short-sighted to actually think that all of the events that lead to me typing these words on this computer were entirely random?
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)We learn new things every day. That is what science is for. The purpose of science is to ask questions, not to say "the earth is flat and if you write that it is round and orbits the Sun, we will throw you in jail, excommunicate you, and possibly torture and execute you" like the church did for centuries. Because the church said the earth was flat and the sun and the stars orbited the Earth, but astronomers knew better, even in ancient Greek times.
If the hypothesis does not fit the facts, the hypothesis must be disposed of.
If you knew about evolution and sexual reproduction, you would know to some degree how random phenomena on the earth are. They are extremely random as far as mutations in genes, species that die off, asteroids hitting the earth, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, and a whole lot of other phenomena. Randomness doesn't mean it's not true.
As far as God being real: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts) rug
(82,333 posts)Not enough straw in here?
elfin
(6,262 posts)Religious "doctrine" of ANY sect, faith etc."
Jesus, God, Allah, Mohammed, Buddha, Zeus etal are not going to solve human suffering that is essentially caused by human actions. None of these magical entities give a crap about my actions or inactions. Up to me to leave this planet a bit better for my stay based upon secular learning.
I am perfectly content to have what comes after this life remain a mystery or just peaceful oblivion. Any movement or person who says they have the answer are just after my submission and wallet as far as I can tell.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)If you knew your religious history, you would know that Buddha was a real person and that Mohammed was a real person. So they are not all "magical entities".
Buddha talked about people getting along with each other. He said that gods were irrelevant, when he was asked. He was attempting to teach people how to get along with each other. You don't have to believe in anything supernatural to be a Buddhist, although some flavors of it do have gods and goddesses.
elfin
(6,262 posts)Who like to worship long ago beings, whether real or not.
You are correct in that I do not know the particulars of religious history, but then I really do not care to spend my time on the topic, as you have discerned.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)But most certainly are in the practical sense. To say that Buddha and Mohammed have not been elevated to divine status by the practitioners of those religions is a fallacy.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)that she used to pray to Buddha and she regretted doing it. She told this to a class she was teaching of English speakers at a Mahayana (Chinese) Buddhist temple I attended.
He was asked "Are you a God?" He said "No."
"Are you a man?" He said "No."
"What are you then?" "I am awake."
This was after he attained enlightenment at age 35 and taught until he died at 80 from eating bad mushrooms.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)
trotsky
(49,533 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)
He's always going off half-cocked, isn't he?
mr blur
(7,753 posts)
stone space
(6,498 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)Is there an upside, somewhere?
mdbl
(4,973 posts)just keep them away from the normal people.
stone space
(6,498 posts)just keep them away from the normal people.
She gets along pretty well with most normal folks.
Sometimes she has problems with hateful bigots, however.
I've never understood the reason for the hate.
Is there an upside somewhere?
I don't see it.
Cartoonist
(7,311 posts)Do you hate guns?
stone space
(6,498 posts)Cartoonist
(7,311 posts)
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)mdbl
(4,973 posts)or it may get real difficult
stone space
(6,498 posts)or it may get real difficult
(I assume that you aren't talking to yourself, here.)
mdbl
(4,973 posts)I said, hopefully are too. It would make things easier. I guess I should have worded it, hopefully, you're a christian too. That is what i meant.
stone space
(6,498 posts)I said, hopefully are too. It would make things easier.
She's not hateful like some of the folks here.
mdbl
(4,973 posts)that's all that counts
stone space
(6,498 posts)
Thanks!
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Take your time.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)But your posting history speaks for itself.
stone space
(6,498 posts)But your posting history speaks for itself.
What would be the point?
What's the upside?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I have no idea!
Again, nice try!
stone space
(6,498 posts) trotsky
(49,533 posts)Not hating specifically Christians, but "to fill (your) life with hate."
Which you express with your posts, which I pointed out.
Thus endeth today's lesson.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Is there some benefit to be gained, or are you just trolling?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You cannot silence me. You will not bully me. You will never succeed.
stone space
(6,498 posts) trotsky
(49,533 posts)You can accuse me of trolling all you want - I will not be bullied.
stone space
(6,498 posts)You can accuse me of trolling all you want - I will not be bullied.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Stop trying to silence me! If you want to shut down all dialog and debate you'll have to go somewhere else. Other people are allowed to have opinions, and be free from bullying.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Stop trying to silence me! If you want to shut down all dialog and debate you'll have to go somewhere else. Other people are allowed to have opinions, and be free from bullying.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You can't silence me!
stone space
(6,498 posts) trotsky
(49,533 posts)I realize this neutralizes your #1 weapon. That is the point.
stone space
(6,498 posts)I realize this neutralizes your #1 weapon. That is the point.
As an atheist, I stand with these Dominican Nuns, when it comes to weapons.
There is no reason to hate Christians at all.
And refusing to hate Christians is not a form of bullying.
Dominican nuns resist war in prayer, action to disarm nuclear arsenals
By Dennis Sadowski Catholic News Service
1.20.2012 12:00 AM ET
BALTIMORE (CNS) -- They call themselves peacemakers, following in the footsteps of the nonviolent Jesus.
Dominican Sisters Carol Gilbert and Ardeth Platte, members of the Jonah House community in Baltimore since 1995, have spent decades crisscrossing the United States opposing war and acting to bring to life the biblical call to "beat swords into plowshares" in symbolically disarming nuclear weapons and other tools of war. Their actions -- as feeble as they might seem -- have led to countless years in prison.
They say there is no better calling.
"I think being a good Catholic calls us to do these things," Sister Carol told Catholic News Service at Jonah House on the grounds of the Archdiocese of Baltimore's St. Peter's Cemetery, where the nuns and other community members are caretakers.
"We talk about being faithful, living lives of faithfulness, being faithful to the Gospel. I think what the nonviolent Jesus was all about was faithfulness," she said.
"What is so important for people to understand (is) that in being faithful, God speaks," Sister Ardeth continued. "We never know when we do an action where it's going to go, who it's going to touch, what it's going to speak to others."
"It's not like we say, 'I think I'll go out today and do this," Sister Carol added. "No, it's 'I think I'll go out and speak this truth.' I may be arrested, I may not be arrested. I may go to prison, I may not go to prison."
The Michigan natives describe themselves as resisters of war and violence. They said their actions are meant to call attention to what they believe are the immoral war policies of the government. They contrasted their actions to disarm with civil disobedience, a tactic often used by protesters to change a law.
Under such thinking, they explained, prison poses no fear. For them, their actions go hand in hand with their Catholic faith.
snip--------------------------
Sister Carol said the resistance work is sustained by living in community with like believers and supporters. Jonah House residents include Elizabeth McAllister, whose husband was the late Phillip Berrigan, and Susan Crane, who is serving a prison term for a Plowshares action on All Saints' Day in 2009 at Naval Base Kitsap 20 miles west of Seattle, where more than 2,300 nuclear weapons are believed to be stored.
The sisters' most recent time in prison was perhaps their most challenging. They were released from a prison in Georgia in September, four months after being convicted of entering the property of the Y-12 National Security Complex in Oak Ridge, Tenn., to pray for peace. They described the prison as almost windowless and constantly cold. Many of the women inmates were poor and some felt helpless.
It was there that their longtime friend and companion resister Dominican Sister Jacqueline Hudson languished for days in the prison infirmary with little treatment for an illness that ultimately claimed her life. They said the experience has led them to confronting the for-profit prison model that sees inmates as commodities to manage.
"It is not ourselves that do this good work," Sister Ardeth said. "It's way above and beyond. When people are faithful, that is what the true witness is. It is not necessarily going to be a powerful, successful story of eliminating all of the nuclear weapons in the world at this time.
"Now hopefully, sometime the congregant of people touched by the word of God, that will happen. That's what we yearn for. That's what we're going to give our life for; that is the end of war, the end of killing and the end of weapons that kill."
http://www.catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2012/dominican-nuns-resist-war-in-prayer-action-to-disarm-nuclear-arsenals.cfm
trotsky
(49,533 posts)
stone space
(6,498 posts)
trotsky
(49,533 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)This is the Religion Forum.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Please stop with the abusive language.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)I see that a lot here, particularly from anti-atheists wanting to claim everyone shares beliefs with the worst atheist they can dig up, while simultaneously claiming that each and every Catholic is a unique snowflake who has their own interpretation of the religion that literally invented the phrase dogma to label it's beliefs. (Strangely always comes up when the massive child rape scandal is brought up)
Please, keep your aim at the actual target.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)What an asshole.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)He inspires me to puke blood.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)That does explain some things, I suppose.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)You can't possibly be as dense as you appear to be. Either you are being incredibly disingenuous (which might almost be admirable) or you really don't have a clue what's going on.
Is it some kind of performance art? I'm afraid it's not working.
stone space
(6,498 posts)mr blur
(7,753 posts)You're funny.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)Do you have a set of rules which people must obey before they're allowed to 'speak' in your presence? Do you want to search people for firearms before you let them in? Get over yourself.
stone space
(6,498 posts)You appear to have a gun-shaped hole in your heart.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,362 posts)You're a horrible person
mr blur
(7,753 posts)
A HERETIC I AM
(24,362 posts)
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Go into your room and pray in secret, and my father who hears in secret will hear you.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)But next, Jesus told us never to say he was the Christ. Which makes attending to Christ a bad thing.
So....
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)necessarily the same thing. One can be done without the other.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Life of Brian, by Monty Python
Jesus tells us to ignore him. And everyone hangs around, asking him what he means.
