Religion
Related: About this forumThis Potential Change For Women In The Catholic Church Is Seriously Not Enough
http://www.bustle.com/articles/160530-this-potential-change-for-women-in-the-catholic-church-is-seriously-not-enoughUndoubtedly, this would be a monumental change for Catholicism, but it's 2016, and just considering allowing Catholic women to become deacons a far cry from priests as far as power and prestige goes since deacons cannot lead mass doesn't really feel all that progressive.
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However, according to the National Catholic Reporter, the theologians the Pope has referenced as a reason to reconsider women's role in the Catholic church also said that women were only allowed to be deacons because it wasn't proper for men to oversee the naked baptism of women it's unclear if the women deacons were allowed any other work within the church.
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As if there were not already enough reasons to be underwhelmed by the Pope's decision to consider women deacons, the Pope's own words highlight the fact that this is only a consideration; he needs a commission (presumably of men) to help him decide if women can hold any power in the church. It's difficult to see Pope Francis as the progressive leader he claims to be if he cannot figure out for himself that people should have equal opportunities within the Catholic church no matter their gender.
rug
(82,333 posts)Followed by free tuition.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)I like progress. I'll take slow progress if I can't get rapid progress. If (and that's a basilica sized if) any progress comes from this, it will be, in the immortal words of everyone's favorite British history book, a Good Thing.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)A decision could just as easily be made in the future to re-re-consider, and remove women once again. Not acknowledging the equality of women is the root of the issue. There is absolutely no progress on that at all.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Ideal? Enlightened? Nope, but better. Any precedent moving towards equality, even temporarily, is better than not moving in that way. To keep on my English history schtick (sorry, recent reading material), they didn't get a basically independent legislative House of Commons in 1215, but without that start, it may have been much longer coming.
Admittedly that leaves us envisaging a fully equal female clergy some time around 2700 CE, if we think the Catholic church moves as quickly as British political history, which is admittedly a bit of Pangloss, but hey progress is progress.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Or just a way to reinforce the status quo?
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Modern history is much less my thing but if the choice were "No meaningful school for blacks" against "Separate but (sort of) equal school for blacks" then darn right it would be progress. It wouldn't be if the starting point were what we have now which at least in theory need not be separate and unequal but unfortunately often approximates it due to funding base.
DADT was progress at the time no matter how much it's reviled in today's Clinton character assassination zeitgeist. It's not as good as we have now, but the starting point was not now but an unfettered active witch-hunt where even suspected gays could be trapped by design and kicked out. It was progress from that point. I ashamedly confess I know too little of what preceded separate but equal to know if it improved things or not.
My basic point though is the same I make to economy doomers on DU. Progress and perfection are not synonyms. Going from losing 650k jobs per month to gaining 165k is the former not the latter, as would be allowing female deacons, which I stress again remains a distant and remote-ish possibility.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)DADT wasn't progress, it was official reinforcement of the policy. Namely that if you are gay, you get kicked out of the military. Nothing about that is more accepting.
And "separate but equal" was of course 50% false. Facilities were indeed separate, but far from equal.
As I understand it, women HAD been allowed to be deacons at one time, and then they weren't. Now Pope Awesome is proposing they "consider" allowing it again. Would you call the first time they were allowed to be deacons "progress," when the rights were later taken away, and only now are they being "considered" to be restored? Can't they just be taken away again? Where's the progress?
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)If you're gay, you get kicked out was the policy both before and after DADT that's true, but before it the policy also included "hound and entrap any serviceman with a slight lisp and really neat fingernails and make the poor fucker's life miserable just because he conforms to a couple of cliche'd stereotypes about gay guys, and force him into the embarrassing position of either getting kicked out or denying he is gay in public, whether he's really gay or not" (ok not a written policy, but SOP nonetheless ). It included "humiliate and blackmail anyone you suspect of being gay with the threat of launching an official investigation into their sexuality." Removing, or at least disincentivizing, those things was indeed progress. It improved some things, intentionally. Again progress is not perfection, or even good. Just less bad.
Female deacons, a limited and distant role (indeed true of any deacons not on the path to the priesthood for most of the RCC's history - even male modern deacons outside the obviously all male priest-track are only post Vatican II.) were a result of excessive medieval prudery more than ecclesiastical gender equality. I suppose we could say they were progress by accident for a while, sort of like how textile workers benefitted from the first AC units even though they were just there to stop the looms warping and the companies didn't give a crap about the workers. So yes from an auxiliary gender equality POV, not that too many people had one at the time, stopping the female deaconate lo those many centuries ago was a step back. But, assuming this review does something, the reversal would be intentional progress, done to enlarge the role of women in the RCC. Another review could remove it of course, just like a putative review could return us back to Latin masses and a view of the priest's backside, but fear of future regress should never stop the search for today's progress.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)There are many accounts by homosexual veterans claiming otherwise. But I guess if you say it changed things, then it must have. I mean, you're pretty sure about it. You were also pretty sure a while back that the freedom of religion was absolute and could never be violated, and when I provided specific examples proving otherwise, you disappeared from the thread. So I dunno.
But to loop things back to the topic at hand, the underlying view of women as "lesser" in status than men continues for the RCC. Even allowing women to become deacons again doesn't change that. The philosophy and teaching is still at the rotten core. You may feel like celebrating, but women like the author don't. Perhaps you know better than them. Again,
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Unless you think the law is fictional it certainly stopped the official policy of pursuing gays. Did it still occur? Sure! (and please cite where I suggested otherwise) But saying that makes the law non-progressive at the time is like saying Brown was not progressive at the time because we still have de facto inequality because of residence and funding. No law is perfectly successful. Does that mean there can be no progressive law?
If youi want me to answer please link to that last threas and I'd be happy to. I'm not committed to continuing every conversation ad infintum but I assure you I'm in no way worried about being proven wrong or unwilling to admit it. I've never shrunk from either intentionally. I can't quite imagine me making that claim as you infer though. I have no desire for the freedom of religious human sacrifice for a start, nor illusion that such exists. Can't bring to mind a thread where I could even have been interpreted to believe so. Still, please do link. I'm rather intrigued.
I'm not celebrating anything. I agree that the RCC is deeply misogynist. I am however willing to accept it's possible they could make slight improvements.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)That isn't it. It's more of the same from the PR pope.
Oh and here's the thread I referenced:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218224769
There are multiple questions you left unanswered.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Would you prefer them to review granting women more rights within the church or not do anything and just leave everything as is though?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)This is a PR move and nothing more.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)I doubt much good will come of this, but I cannot assume that it is absolutely impossible that something good might. If the status quo remains, null benefit, null harm. If female deacons edge into some ancilliary clerical duties, some benefit. It's hard to see any harm coming from it.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)that... women were only allowed to be deacons because it wasn't proper for men to oversee the naked baptism of women
If that is true, it drives the wedge further into the notion of equality, and also lends itself to the idea that a baptism by a female deacon could be seen lesser than a "real" baptism, further harming women.
Ultimately though, if female deacons are allowed to do other things, I think that any "progress" on this issue is really only for one reason: to address the critical priest shortage the church is facing by offloading whatever duties they can. It's not intended to actually lead to anything other than that. Blank Frank has been quite clear that issues of true equality are "off the table" for him.