No men allowed: Women-only pool hours draw complaints in NYC

[trotsky]

http://www.stltoday.com/lifestyles/faith-and-values/no-men-allowed-women-only-pool-hours-draw-complaints-in/article_e40109c2-f3bc-5bb5-9864-f5b21dafdea7.html

A New York City municipal pool that maintains female-only hours so that Hasidic Jewish women can swim with no men present has raised alarms among critics who say the accommodation to a particular religious group violates the constitutional separation of church and state.

But defenders say the women-only swim sessions at the Metropolitan Recreation Center give women whose community separates the sexes a rare chance to exercise.

...

But civil libertarians say restricting men's access to a public pool is wrong.

"New Yorkers ... have every right to limit their swimming in accordance with their religious beliefs, but they have no right to impose a regime of gender discrimination on a public pool," said Donna Lieberman, executive director of the New York Civil Liberties Union.

[SoCalNative]

1. Let them build their own pool

eom

[LisaM]

2. I like women only pool hours

And not for religious reasons, I just like swimming with only women for a variety of reasons. I hope they can keep this accommodation.

[Cartoonist]

4. Would you support men only?

When I was a kid back in the sixties, our city pool would give fifteen minutes of each hour for adults only. I deeply resented that then, and it still bugs me.

[LisaM]

6. Absolutely!

The reason I enjoyed the women-only swim was, basically, because men groped me sometimes when they passed me. I hated it.

I also like adult-only swims because I swim laps and it's easier when the splashing is kept to a minimum. But when I was a kid, I enjoyed jumping and splashing as much as the next kid.

The women not being able to exercise at all is really a serious thing though. In our apartment gym, there are some Muslim women who basically won't exercise in our gym if men are in there. I feel for them, and if our building wanted to enforce a women-only time, I'd definitely support it. The Muslim women in our building are pretty much home all day with their children and get little enough recreational time.

[AtheistCrusader]

10. You describe predatory behavior.

Limiting gender-access to the pool may alter the statistical probability of you encountering a predator, but it does not eliminate it. Sexual Predator can be fully gender-agnostic.

[Ohioblue22]

5. Why isn't that sexist

[Cartoonist]

3. This again?

The women-only swim sessions at the Metropolitan Recreation Center give women whose community separates the sexes a rare chance to exercise.

If the women have a problem, then they need to address their community and its misogyny.

There was a similar story about a private pool offering segregated hours. That was up to the owners. Not so a public pool.

[Warpy]

7. It's a violation if only Hasidic women are allowed.

If the pool is open to all women, I don't see the problem.

[trotsky]

8. The full article notes an additional wrinkle...

what about people who self-identify as women?

Someone asked the mayor about that and he declined to answer. I suspect in the orthodox Jewish community, the transgendered are not fully accepted, and so would not be allowed to swim with women. But I don't know for sure.

Gets pretty complicated.

[Jerry442]

9. The problem is, this policy exists only as a benefit to a religious group.

If the Hasidim can get a ban on men during certain hours of pool operation without any compelling secular argument, what's next? A ban on women during other hours? A ban on immodestly dressed women at all times, with standards set by the Hasidim themselves? A ban on people of color? A ban on women with too-small breasts or too-short hair because they might not be actual women? A ban on people with tattoos?

Once you give a religious group control of a publicly-owned facility for any reason, you've let the camel put his nose in the tent.

On edit: are male lifeguards and other male staff banned from the pool area during the women-only swim time? Doesn't this present an additional legal problem for a publicly owned and operated facility?

[Igel]

11. There are lots of such accommodations.

When a religious group is also a population group.

Xmas is a holiday for a religious group. But it is a large enough group that the accommodation is there to serve the population.

Same for vegetarian or clean/kosher meals at schools. We don't say, "gee, most of the users of this service are Jews and so we cannot allow it."

Another example: early voting in Ohio was being eliminated and one group would be disproportionately impacted. That was black Xians who would be reminded at church to go vote. At least that was the press and the outcry even here.

[Jerry442]

12. But at some point, they exceed the threshold of reasonableness.

The city Parks Department said in a statement that it is reviewing its policy but the women-only sessions on Monday, Wednesday and Friday mornings and Sunday afternoons will remain for now.

That's an awful lot of time to prohibit men from swimming in the absence of any secular reason. Either the city is spending a lot of public money to keep the pool open extra time, or men have been deprived of time they used to have.

People tend to be tolerant of things like supplying kosher meals to school kids because the perception is that the non-kosher kids don't lose anything. If it were found to be true somewhere that the nutritional quality of the regular meals had declined because of the extra money spent on kosher meals then the parents would have a legitimate beef (so to speak).

[Act_of_Reparation]

20. Vegan and Kosher meal options don't take bacon cheeseburgers off the menu.

Those who want to eat meat, or very specific kinds of meat, still can, even while those of different preferences are accommodated.

A women-only or men-only swimming slot necessarily denies one group or the other service for a period of time.

[struggle4progress]

13. I expect NYC can sort this out with no help from internet busy-bodies

Some costs of the facility are covered by the $150/year membership fee ($25/year for veterans and the disabled)

This pool is open over 80 hours/week with about 8 hours/week female only. New York has about a dozen recreation centers with pools. The city also has about nine entirely free outdoor pools and about nine public beaches

Folk needing the Metropolitan Recreation Center pool schedule can find it here: https://www.nycgovparks.org/facilities/recreationcenters/B085/schedule#Pool

[edhopper]

14. And there are plenty of Jewish Community Centers with pools

let the religious accommodation happen there. Or at the "Y" for some ecumenical assistance.

[struggle4progress]

15. Do you use that pool, or are you just lecturing the world at large because

you don't have anything better to do?

[edhopper]

16. pretty much

But I live in the city, and I've used city park pools. There were times I had only one day in a week I could go. It would have sucked if I was told my city decided religious fundy ideology was their basis for a schedule.

What next,the Museum of Natural History removes the evolution displays because of creationists?

[Warren Stupidity]

17. this is a discussion board where people, oddly enough, discuss things.

[rug]

18. That explains your decorations.

[Warren Stupidity]

19. It is however entirely predictable that the defenders of the faith

use deflection as a regular tactic whenever there are posts here that point out just how closely linked their religions are with all sorts of hideous human behaviors and beliefs.