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rug

(82,333 posts)
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 07:11 PM Sep 2016

Pope and world religious leaders vow to oppose terror in God's name

Tue Sep 20, 2016 | 12:33pm EDT
By Philip Pullella | ASSISI, ITALY

Pope Francis and leaders of other world religions said "No to War!" on Tuesday, vowing to oppose terrorism in God's name and appealing to politicians to listen to "the anguished cry of so many innocents".

Francis flew by helicopter to the central Italian hilltop city that was home to St. Francis, the 13th century saint revered by many religions as a patron of peace and nature and a defender of the poor.

The head of the Roman Catholic Church closed a three-day meeting where about 500 representatives of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism and other faiths discussed how their members could better promote peace and reconciliation.

Francis, who delivered two addresses and shared meals with the leaders, said indifference to suffering had become "a new and deeply sad paganism" that caused some to turn away from war victims and refugees with the same ease as changing a television channel.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-peace-idUSKCN11Q28S

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Pope and world religious leaders vow to oppose terror in God's name (Original Post) rug Sep 2016 OP
You know, I think they've done this before. LuvNewcastle Sep 2016 #1
Last November. rug Sep 2016 #2
Oh, so that's why ISIS surrendered, we pulled our troops LuvNewcastle Sep 2016 #3
Might make you wonder if something other than religion is going on. rug Sep 2016 #4
Yeah, just think how depraved we'd be. LuvNewcastle Sep 2016 #5
How did the Israelites treat Canaanites, Philistines? Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #6
How did the Romans feel when they forcibly occupied Palestine? rug Sep 2016 #7
Romans? Same as the Israelis; but not quite as angry. Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #8
Since you're describing 2,000 year old emotions, add this: rug Sep 2016 #9
Like the Bible promising Israeli global domination? Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #10
No, like Alexander, et sequelae. rug Sep 2016 #11
Every knee must bow to the Lord? Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #12
Empires are built on missiles not epistles. rug Sep 2016 #13
So God ordering an invasion, etc., was irrelevant? Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #14
Since it didn't happen it's irrelevant. rug Sep 2016 #17
Moses asserted Jews had been "promised" Israel. Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #18
This borders on anti-Semitism. rug Sep 2016 #20
It's from the Old Testament, as quoted in part above. Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #21
Google: "That the Jews should eventually fight and conquer the whole "world," and all "nations," rug Sep 2016 #22
Then go on to serious scholarly research on Zionism, the Day of the Lord, etc.. Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #24
Do you want me to read The Protocols too? rug Sep 2016 #25
Others cherry-pick the peaceful parts. Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #26
And don't promote anti-semitism in the guise of antitheism. rug Sep 2016 #27
Atheists don't discriminate; they avoid ALL religions Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #29
I'm talking about your posts in this subthread. Don't try to blend into a group. rug Sep 2016 #31
So let us read Psalm 2.8. Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #32
For starters, I'd read the whole thing, not one line. rug Sep 2016 #33
It starts as a complaint that God is not giving what he promised Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #34
"It is not a zionist blueprint for world domination." rug Sep 2016 #35
Ps. 22 begins noting God is not fulfilling his promise. Then? Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #36
Completely inane. rug Sep 2016 #37
God "shattering" the nations isn't just a metaphor for say, Gods soul-shattering reform of our life Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #38
Do you understand the main theme running through the Old Testament is the sovereignity of YHWH? rug Sep 2016 #39
The wars went on for some time. Recently? Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #40
If you're drawing a kline between the legendary battles of the Old testament and rug Sep 2016 #41
It didn't happen? Why do you say that? Lordquinton Sep 2016 #43
It's far better to work for peace than the alternative. cpwm17 Sep 2016 #15
I've heard priests defend executing apostates Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #16
Do Christian Pacifists merely "pretend" to follow the Bible? stone space Sep 2016 #19
Here Christians look violently pacifistic Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #23
Again, do Christian Pacifists merely "pretend" to follow the Bible? stone space Sep 2016 #28
There are apparently sincere Christian pacifists. However? Brettongarcia Sep 2016 #30
Do you know of any atheist pacifists? rug Sep 2016 #42
Wow. This was sure left hanging. stone space Oct 2016 #44
She was raised a Quaker. Did she become a nonbeliever? rug Oct 2016 #45

LuvNewcastle

(16,926 posts)
1. You know, I think they've done this before.
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 07:25 PM
Sep 2016

Didn't work out too well. I'm not saying it won't happen this time, though.

LuvNewcastle

(16,926 posts)
3. Oh, so that's why ISIS surrendered, we pulled our troops
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 07:40 PM
Sep 2016

out of the Middle East and stopped the drone attacks, the Russians all went home, Assad resigned, and there are democratic elections going on in all of those lands formerly run by despots. I've got to start watching tv again; I've missed so much.

LuvNewcastle

(16,926 posts)
5. Yeah, just think how depraved we'd be.
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 07:50 PM
Sep 2016

The teenager having the LSD flashback would have put every baby in the neighborhood in the oven instead of just one!

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
8. Romans? Same as the Israelis; but not quite as angry.
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 01:57 PM
Sep 2016

Since the Israelis had the passion of religion behind them.

Some Romans actually later publically regretted it when Jerusalem burned to the ground. In contrast, until very recently, you didn't hear many Israelis regretting killing tons of foreigners. Since God himself approved it.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
9. Since you're describing 2,000 year old emotions, add this:
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 01:59 PM
Sep 2016

The passion of empire is a mighty motivartor.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
10. Like the Bible promising Israeli global domination?
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 02:26 PM
Sep 2016

When "all nations" and the whole "world" bow before Israel.

So how come the pope doesn't mention these still relevant topics? Guess he forgot?

If religion is the same as irreligion, what's the net gain in going with religion, by the way?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
11. No, like Alexander, et sequelae.
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 02:33 PM
Sep 2016
If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things Hellenic, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of the Hellenic justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
12. Every knee must bow to the Lord?
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 02:44 PM
Sep 2016

Romans 14:11 ►

New International Version

It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'"

Wonder if the Greeks learned imperialism from Israel...

Psalm 2:8 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version

Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
14. So God ordering an invasion, etc., was irrelevant?
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 03:23 PM
Sep 2016

If so, then religion is superfluous and irrelevant at best.

So why follow this useless appendage?

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
18. Moses asserted Jews had been "promised" Israel.
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 05:25 PM
Sep 2016

On that premise, he left Egypt and actually, successfully, it seems to many, invaded Israel or Canaan.

The promise and invasion of Israel, next, was just the first part of a larger promise. That they should eventually fight and conquer the whole "world," and all "nations," and all the "earth."

Some argue that Christianity fulfilled this promise, by winning WW II. And in effect controlling the whole world, at least loosely.

In any case, these alarming, violent directives have already been partially acted on. And the larger program is still on the books; partly motivating some conservatives' violently imperialistic wars.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
20. This borders on anti-Semitism.
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 06:49 PM
Sep 2016
The promise and invasion of Israel, next, was just the first part of a larger promise. That they should eventually fight and conquer the whole "world," and all "nations," and all the "earth."

Where did you get that shit?

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
21. It's from the Old Testament, as quoted in part above.
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 07:30 PM
Sep 2016

There are dozens, if not hundreds, of supporting quotes.

Many Christians also believe that they inherited this promise. That one apocalyptic "day" or another, God will return to earth. To punish those who disobeyed God; which means, likely, every one but Jews or true Christians. Related to that, this leaves followers of God, in charge of an ideal "kingdom," reigning over the whole world (Rev. 21 ff.).

Start with the quotes above. Then look up the rest of the literature on the "Day" of the Lord, and the Second Coming, etc..

This aspect of the Bible is extremely well known in Protestant evangelical circles; less known in Catholic churches. The only variation I'm making on standard doctrine here, is noting that all this amounts to an excuse for global domination/imperialism. In one common reading, it's an ethnocentric doctrine that calls for Judeo Christian domination of all nations.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
22. Google: "That the Jews should eventually fight and conquer the whole "world," and all "nations,"
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 07:39 PM
Sep 2016

and all the "earth."

The fourth hit is Stormfront.

The first three are simply insane.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
24. Then go on to serious scholarly research on Zionism, the Day of the Lord, etc..
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 07:58 PM
Sep 2016

Yes, this side of the Bible is crazy, and brings out the right wings; both for and against it. But it's a crazy idea that's in the Bible itself.

Do some serious biblical research.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
25. Do you want me to read The Protocols too?
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 08:02 PM
Sep 2016

For centuries people have cherry-picked the Bible, especially the Old Testament, to promote the most vicious forms of anti-Semirtism.

They still are.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
26. Others cherry-pick the peaceful parts.
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 08:08 PM
Sep 2016

They still do.

A balanced view would note both. But that means people would never speak if Christianity as entirely peaceful and loving. As countless priests and ministers constantly do.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
29. Atheists don't discriminate; they avoid ALL religions
Thu Sep 22, 2016, 03:56 AM
Sep 2016

Atheists don't discriminate; they don't want any religions for themselves; none of them. Retire Chritianity, as well as Islam, as well as Hinduism, as well as Buddhism, as well as Shinto, as well as Tao, as well as Jainism, as well as Gnosticism. And all the rest.

Many religions are personally rejected, in part because under the veil, the sheep's clothing, of peace and love, they pursue hate and war and genocide and death.

Is it rude and bad to call attention to mass murderers with a double personality?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
31. I'm talking about your posts in this subthread. Don't try to blend into a group.
Thu Sep 22, 2016, 07:09 AM
Sep 2016

They are deplorable.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
32. So let us read Psalm 2.8.
Thu Sep 22, 2016, 07:26 AM
Sep 2016

If you say you are a Christian, or support Christianity, then, if you are not a uninformed person, or a hypocrite, then you must read the Bible.

Let's start with Ps. 2.8. And then the moment when Moses formed the Levitical priesthood.

How do you read them?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
33. For starters, I'd read the whole thing, not one line.
Thu Sep 22, 2016, 07:34 AM
Sep 2016

1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Why art thou so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but thou dost not answer;
and by night, but find no rest.
3 Yet thou art holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 In thee our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 To thee they cried, and were saved;
in thee they trusted, and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm, and no man;
scorned by men, and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock at me,
they make mouths at me, they wag their heads;
8 “He committed his cause to the Lord; let him deliver him,
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
9 Yet thou art he who took me from the womb;
thou didst keep me safe upon my mother’s breasts.
10 Upon thee was I cast from my birth,
and since my mother bore me thou hast been my God.
11 Be not far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is none to help.
12 Many bulls encompass me,
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax,
it is melted within my breast;
15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
thou dost lay me in the dust of death.
16 Yea, dogs are round about me;
a company of evildoers encircle me;
they have pierced my hands and feet—
17 I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my garments among them,
and for my raiment they cast lots.
19 But thou, O Lord, be not far off!
O thou my help, hasten to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
my life[c] from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion,
my afflicted soul[d] from the horns of the wild oxen!
22 I will tell of thy name to my brethren;
in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee:
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
all you sons of Jacob, glorify him,
and stand in awe of him, all you sons of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted;
and he has not hid his face from him,
but has heard, when he cried to him.
25 From thee comes my praise in the great congregation;
my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26 The afflicted[e] shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the Lord!
May your hearts live for ever!
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the Lord;
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before him.[f]
28 For dominion belongs to the Lord,
and he rules over the nations.
29 Yea, to him[g] shall all the proud of the earth bow down;
before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
and he who cannot keep himself alive.
30 Posterity shall serve him;
men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,
31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn,
that he has wrought it.

It is David speaking to his God, asking relief from the suffering in the world, from the Creator iof the world.

It is not a zionist blueprint for world domination.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
34. It starts as a complaint that God is not giving what he promised
Thu Sep 22, 2016, 07:43 AM
Sep 2016

Here, in the first part, God's follower is complaining that God, contrary to his promises, has for a time allowed him, his follower, to suffer.

So how does the text answer that veiled complaint about God's temporary nonperformance, next?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
35. "It is not a zionist blueprint for world domination."
Thu Sep 22, 2016, 07:48 AM
Sep 2016

Did you miss that is my complaint about your posts in this subthread?

I have a feeling discssing Psalms with you will not be productive.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
36. Ps. 22 begins noting God is not fulfilling his promise. Then?
Thu Sep 22, 2016, 08:08 AM
Sep 2016

Then it predicts that God WILL however fulfill them.

And so what exactly are those promises? "All the families of the nations shall bow before him. For dominion is the LORD'S" (Ps. 22.28-9 NAB).

Is this submission of all the nations to the Lord, to be a peaceful process? Ps. 2.9 says it is not:
"You shall rule them with an iron rod; you shall shatter them like an earthen dish" (Ps. 2.9).

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
37. Completely inane.
Thu Sep 22, 2016, 08:21 AM
Sep 2016

Acknowledging God as the Creator of all is not a battle plan for Israel to conquer the world.

I suppose you think Psalm 2:4 means there is a god in heaven literally laughing.

"He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord has them in derision."

Although, as this progresses, I may find that believable.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
38. God "shattering" the nations isn't just a metaphor for say, Gods soul-shattering reform of our life
Thu Sep 22, 2016, 08:51 AM
Sep 2016

In most similar references, it is not. Moses they claim, literally left Egypt. And went literally to Canaan or Israel. Where, after many literal, actual, physical battles, the Israelis physically triumphed. To take over actual, literal land. By defeating and scattering - shattering - their enemies, their fortresses.

That the warlike images specifically are not usually metaphors, is evidenced at least in part, by the historical fact that countless ancient records confirm countless, literal, actual wars between Jews and nations.

So these battles, warlike images, are normally not metaphors.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
39. Do you understand the main theme running through the Old Testament is the sovereignity of YHWH?
Thu Sep 22, 2016, 08:56 AM
Sep 2016

Framed for the most part in 2,500 year old analogies.

And what the hell is this?

"countless, literal, actual wars between Jews and nations."

Are you in fact saying that's what's going on now?

Because the Bible told you so?

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
40. The wars went on for some time. Recently?
Thu Sep 22, 2016, 09:13 AM
Sep 2016

Last edited Thu Sep 22, 2016, 11:02 AM - Edit history (1)

After the war between the people of Moses and the residents of Canaan, there were constant other wars.

Mist recently, the terrorist guerilla war by Mosche Dayan against the British. Then the 1967, Yom Kippur, Six Days War, against Egypt and Syriia, etc..

If we consider Christianity as heir to the Israeli legacy, the promises of God for world domination, as most Christian theology indirectly insists? Then add in, all the wars started by Christians. Like the expansion of the British Empire. Including the military takeover of North America, and much of the Pacific. And countless other Christian wars.

God's sovereignty over the world, was often thought and said to be accomplished by way of say, literal religious soldiers physically taking over the world; "Christianizing the pagans," with the Christian British Empire and its weaponry, as the British might put it.

Hopefully it's over though. Finally in 1945-7 or so, the British and American Christians in effect, controlled the whole world. The victory in WWII, and sole possession of Atom Bomb, made that domination total. Even Russia and China were allies. All other parts of the world were either Christian, or intimidated.

Today, after the basic achievement of world domination, Judeo Christianity is easing up on restraints somewhat. And allowing some belated ethnic diversity.

For that matter though, many might well question whether this domination is entirely the very last word in God's foretold ideal "kingdom" of heaven on earth. Or whether some future refinements might be needed.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
41. If you're drawing a kline between the legendary battles of the Old testament and
Thu Sep 22, 2016, 02:04 PM
Sep 2016

the wars of the modern state of Israel, your understanding of history is as poor as your understanding of religion.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
43. It didn't happen? Why do you say that?
Fri Sep 23, 2016, 01:28 AM
Sep 2016

Can you explain exactly how your holy book is wrong?

When you say "literalist" are you referring to believers whoso think that the events in the Bible happened, like Pope Francis? How much of the Bible do you have to believe is real before you're considered a literalist?

There's so much more but let's see if you can answer even one of those questions straight an honest.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
15. It's far better to work for peace than the alternative.
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 04:00 PM
Sep 2016

At least the Pope got that right.

Do priests at individual Roman Catholic Churches support peace or is there a lot of support for war at some churches?

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
16. I've heard priests defend executing apostates
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 04:57 PM
Sep 2016

Many Catholics supported the Crusades. Some crusades were even lead by popes.

Today most priests seem pacifistic. Yet they still pretend to follow the Bible, often. Whose Old Testament was quite violent.

So priests today are, if not violent, then at least hugely deceitful hypocrites.

For that matter, look into the modern priests of Opus Dei, and the Jesuits. To find priests participating in genuine violence, wars, and totalitarian regimes. Like Franco's fascist Spain, and various South American revolutions.

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
19. Do Christian Pacifists merely "pretend" to follow the Bible?
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 06:37 PM
Sep 2016
Today most priests seem pacifistic. Yet they still pretend to follow the Bible, often. Whose Old Testament was quite violent.

So priests today are, if not violent, then at least hugely deceitful hypocrites.



"They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks"--Isaiah 2-4



Larry Cloud Morgan, hammering on a nuclear missile silo.



A Review of the Plowshares Movement through 2012

Published on Nov 3, 2013

A history of the Plowshares movement from 1980 to 2012, compiled from the records of many friends by Ardeth Platte OP and Susan Crane.


Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
23. Here Christians look violently pacifistic
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 07:51 PM
Sep 2016

In other ways, they continue to subtly or indirectly support more direct violence.

Many support say, 1) the Church overall; which would imply supporting it's violent history. Others agree with 2) one reading of Revelation: that a huge apocalyptic war alone, can finally achieve the triumphant "kingdom," that dominates the earth at last.

Many 3) evangelicals support anti-Muslim and other wars, too, based on their reading of the Bible. Particularly the often genocidal Old Testament.

Under the sheeps' clothing, there was often a wolf, all along.

No doubt there are some sincerely pacifistic Christians. But many are far,far more violent than you would think.

As we 4) constantly see here in DU, in hundreds of news stories about murderers quoting the Bible, God, as their justification.

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
28. Again, do Christian Pacifists merely "pretend" to follow the Bible?
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 08:28 PM
Sep 2016
Today most priests seem pacifistic. Yet they still pretend to follow the Bible, often. Whose Old Testament was quite violent.




Here's a Christian Pacifist on a Red Tricycle. Note how he quotes the Old Testament in this video:



Rocky Tiger Ploughshares - Action.

21 July 2011, a peace activist on a red tricycle disables a "Tiger"
attack helicopter with a garden mattock.




Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
30. There are apparently sincere Christian pacifists. However?
Thu Sep 22, 2016, 04:04 AM
Sep 2016

They are fooling themselves and others, if they think their pacifism accurately reflects the entire Bible, or the New Testament.

We might wish them luck anyway. But they need to know that their belief sees much of the Bible's violent theology as obsolete, or canceled/ "fulfilled."

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
44. Wow. This was sure left hanging.
Mon Oct 3, 2016, 11:48 AM
Oct 2016
Do you know of any atheist pacifists?


He could have at least mentioned Barbara Deming's "On Revolution and Equilibrium".




https://www.warresisters.org/store/revolution-and-equilibrium-barbara-deming





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