Religion
Related: About this forumHow Do You Distinguish Between Religious Fervor and Mental Illness?
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/how-do-you-distinguish-between-religious-fervor-and-mental-illness/...Take an example of a man who walks into an emergency department, mumbling incoherently. He says hes hearing voices in his head, but insists theres nothing wrong with him. He hasnt used any drugs or alcohol. If he were to be evaluated by mental health professionals, theres a good chance he might be diagnosed with a psychotic disorder like schizophrenia.
But what if that same man were deeply religious? What if his incomprehensible language was speaking in tongues? If he could hear Jesus speaking to him? He might also insist nothing were wrong with him. After all, hes practicing his faith.
Its not just the ambiguities of mental health diagnoses that create this problemthe vague nature of how we define religion further complicates matters. For example, the Church of Scientology argued with the Internal Revenue Service for years to be classified as a charitable religious organization and to qualify for tax-exempt status. The Church eventually won this battle in 1993, a major step towards becoming a mainstream American religion.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,576 posts)When God talks to you it's schizophrenia.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Who knew?
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,576 posts)but if I ran into some dude coming down from a mountain carrying stone tablets that he claimed God had given him, I'd definitely wonder about his sanity.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)A debilitating mental illness that presents in a fraction of a percent of the population, and yet somehow the LDS church raised 16 of them to their highest office in succession. Interesting.
kimbutgar
(21,040 posts)They are a loony bunch. Cult like. They stand on street corners for hours in all types of weather not saying a word with their signs. I had an aunt who became one when I was a kid. She became unbearable and crazy.
Sorry John the Baptist was insane.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)with a cult of dedicated employees. A very sad situation for the many children trapped inside.
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)Last edited Mon Dec 26, 2016, 07:07 PM - Edit history (1)
Jehovah's witnesses do hand out lots of tracts.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)that said god literally talked to them were schizophrenic?
I'd be called a bigot if I posted that.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,576 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)I'd ask you to state specifically what the priest allegedly said and specifically what the priest allegedly said that God said.
I would disregard your psychiatric diagnosis because obviously you are unqualifed to make one.
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)I asked our local priest, standing in line at the local coffee shop, if he heard the voice of God. And whether it was just like, was, an audible voice. He insisted that it was. Much to everyone's amazement.
I've also talked to bishops, archbishops, cardinals. To be sure, they often seem somewhat less literal. But not consistently.
rug
(82,333 posts)I once used a urinal next to Christopher Hitchens and we discussed Mother Teresa.
okasha
(11,573 posts)once had a lengthy existential conversation while waiting in line outside a tortilla shop in Cuernavaca.
rug
(82,333 posts)"I too await the coming of my hour, I too exist. No. I quit." - Visión del escribiente
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Most of them un-friended me over the election though, so, safe space around here.
eppur_se_muova
(36,247 posts)Believing religion is not a mental condition is like believing alcohol is not a drug.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Not my words, but the actual words of the author.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)who claim to follow a religion of peace and forgiveness and honesty (Christianity, allegedly) but who are vicious, insulting, dishonest, and unrepentant.
But then, maybe that's what Christianity really is. Sadly I see lots of Christians behaving that way.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)They don't claim to be Christians now, do they? Do you think Jesus calls you to be a better person by being a Christian? Or do you prefer to follow the trite "Not perfect, just forgiven" approach where you can do whatever you want and just ask for forgiveness on Sunday?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Understood.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)It's not pertinent. It's your attempt to change the subject, just like you always do. And when you find you've lost the argument on a thread, you'll pick out one element and start a new thread. It's your admission of defeat. Good golly you've done it enough it's obvious to everyone.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I like pickled herring, but have never tried red herring.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,262 posts)Protestant: Clinton 39%, Trump 56%
Catholic: 46%, 50%
Overall Christian: 41%, 54%
Jewish: 71%, 23%
Other religions: 62%, 29%
no religion: 67%, 25%
Overall non-Christian: 66%, 26%
So there's a pretty good correlation between immoral behaviour (voting for Trump) and being an American Christian.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)most Americans identify as Christian.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90356
Agreed?
Interesting attempt to answer my question.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,262 posts)Remember, most Americans voted for Hillary - by a margin of 2%. But most Christians (who were 75% of voters) voted for Trump, by a margin of 13%. And non-Christians voted for Hillary, by a margin of 40%. This doesn't 'ignore' that most Americans are Christian at all. It just shows there's a big difference between the typical Christian and the typical non-Christian. And the typical Christian voted for the bigoted, misogynistic, narcissistic, greedy arsehole.
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)Whether they can ever be distinguished is a matter, for now, of faith. And not reason or science psychiatry. Which, in this psychiatrist's account, find it hard to distinguish them.
By the way? "Religiosity" is now recognized as a typical symptom of schizophrenia and related disorders.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)that person is probably going to feel that all religious people are, in part at least, delusional.
And the reverse also could be true in religious societies.
Does that prove anything other than the mindset of the person making that judgement?
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)If I point out what I see as the biases and /or limitations of a discipline, does that constitute a rejection of the entire discipline?
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)while rejecting neither in their proper places.
I hope that clarifies.
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)I've showed that in a dozen ways here, already.
So the idea of separate and non overlapping magisteria or jurisdictions is simply wrong.
The Bible told us to scientifically examine, "test everything," in religion, according to its visible, physical fruits, works, signs, deeds, and proofs.
Just to clarify.
Lemaitre supported the Platonistic dualistic idea of separate areas for religion and science; spirit vs. matter. But I don't support Lemaitre et alia.
Neither does the Bible itself.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Happy holidays, or whatever you personally say at this time of year. I do enjoy the discussion.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)He also seems to accept or fit the term "psychiatrist." Since psychiatry is based on Freud. Who said "all religion is delusion."
His name is Nat P. Morris. Here's his bio in The Wall Street Journal, no less:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/why-im-becoming-a-psychiatrist-1454371033
okasha
(11,573 posts)and the requisite internship and residency.
And it's been a long, long time since Freud was the dominant influence in the field.
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)Soon to be an official shrink.
Since he's interning at the second best research hospital in the entire country, I give him full honorary status, before formal recognition.
Not too uncommon. An informal attribution anticipating a stellar career and assured acceptance into professional rank.
Apparently there are also other ways to get certified by major psychiatric agencies as well, without a medical degree. One of my old chums from Oxford got one in, I think, NYC.
rug
(82,333 posts)Of course, this turned out to be a fake news story. But it still drew legitimate media coverage and outrage from readers. Fact-checking websites like Snopes had to point out the column was satirical.
I take it you also ignore that the two can indeed be distinguished. To hold otherwise is to be delusional.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Speaking generally, of course.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)So when people in Africa were convinced by the RCC to not use condoms? Why just pick on the Jehovah's Witnesses?
rug
(82,333 posts)The article is about the delusion, often promoted here, that mental illness and religious belief is indistinguishable.
It's not about Africa. It's not about condoms. It's not about Jehovahs's Witnesses. Feel free to start a thread on any or all of those topics. It ain't here.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)you accuse others of. There is more pertinence right below the part you highlighted.
To many, this was a ridiculous stunt. But for me, a physician specializing in mental health, the satire hits home in many ways. My colleagues and I often care for patients suffering from hallucinations, prophesying, and claiming to speak with God, among other symptomsin mental health care, its sometimes very difficult to tell apart religious belief from mental illness.
Part of this is because the classification of mental illness often relies on subjective criteria. We cant diagnose many mental health conditions with brain scans or blood tests. Our conclusions frequently stem from the behaviors we see before us.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)What if an overtly religious person fits in to society, works a job, relates well with others, exhibits all of the criteria that we use when judging normal behavior?
Is that person suffering from some sort of delusion?
It seems to me that your above description applies to non-functional people.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)that the article linked to in the OP isn't from a fake news site nor is it a satire. I also wanted to point out that the person saying the OP didn't post the rest of the story was doing exactly what they were accusing the OP of doing. If you thought I wrote the block quote I think you might do yourself a favor and read the linked story.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And that I see no connection between religious belief and dysfunctional behavior.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)the quoted text as from the story. That was my entire point.
rug
(82,333 posts)FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)From the article:
Typical Dawkins' overblown nonsense.
Until Dawkins, or anyone can prove that belief in a god or a Creator is false, he fails in his claim. What is delusional, in my view, is treating Dawkins' expression of his personal, non-professional opinion as proof of anything other than his evident propensity for making such statements.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I just LOVE the fits that Dawkins gives certain types of believers, though.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And how small is the dragon?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Next question.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Or the fire department.
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)Only a priest can see it, verify it, and deal with it.
Priests though are very expensive. In exchange for them handling invisible and immaterial things for you, they want you to give up everything you have to them.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)Otherwise, having no empirical verification in hard - and ultimately visible - data, it can be regarded as only theory
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Unless the dragon exists in a space between two universes.
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)Unless the space between two universes has been verified by experimental/empirical data, at best we are dealing with Scientific THEORY, not established scientific FACT
At best it's an heuristic construction.
rug
(82,333 posts)Then I'd tell you to prove it. It shouldn't be hard since both dragons and garages have material characteristics.
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)Last edited Sat Dec 24, 2016, 08:00 AM - Edit history (1)
In some accounts, since they are immaterial spirits, they cannot be verified, seen, by the eyes, or detected by science.
okasha
(11,573 posts)in urban areas. One need only call the proper authorities and report keeping of said very dangerous wild animal to discover whether there is one in a person's garage.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Useful for starting fires.
okasha
(11,573 posts)to volatile hydrocarbons, eg., gasoline.
Better call the fire department, too.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)Les fascistes ne passeront pas.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)un vrai cauchemar pour les gauchistes.
Oneironaut
(5,479 posts)One may believe that she heard the voice of a resurrected dead man from 2000 years ago, that she may cause favorable outcomes by either communicating telepathically with or asking out loud favors to a being who lives in the clouds, believe that she is constantly being watched by said being, and join others who believe the same dellusuon so long as these delusions are culturally accepted.
Replace God with a purple moon dragon named "Taco," and you would be ridiculed, if not committed. If hundreds of millions of other people had the same irrational, ridiculous belief, the madness of believing such a thing would be immediately overlooked.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)purple moon dragon named Taco. It can come with me to dog friendly brew pubs.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)so go ahead and claim you do! It's all good!
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)and explain that I have a purple moon dragon with me and they are to address it as Taco I think I will be cut off before I start.
Skittles
(153,111 posts)Emilybemily
(204 posts)They are the same thing
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)So I don't quibble over semantics. Same shit, different label.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)For example, parents who beat their children, denied them medical care, refused to send them to school, and so on, would be jailed for child abuse. But we can't touch them if they do all this because Jesus told them to do it.
RKP5637
(67,084 posts)him to be a minister and shook his shoulder. I always wondered about that as a tiny kid, like WTF!
doc03
(35,293 posts)pbmus
(12,422 posts)Told you to, you are mentally ill....