Atheism outside the US - First hand perspectives invited

[dmallind]

I think many US-based folks, believers and none, who have not had the luxury of long first hand exposure to other countries, have a bit of a blinkered view of how atheism is perceived, how it operates, even how it is defined in other countries. I can only speak with much authority on one other country, unfortunately the one least mysterious to the majority of US DUers, Britain. I grew up there, have friends and family there, and keep up with news and entertainment shows (not out of jingoisyic nostalgia - just like a lot of their shows better than American ones - QI wouldn't last an episode here). But I'll start with that one and encourage other DUers with first-hand experience (beyond a vacation or two) to respond in kind for other countries. I am even curious about Canada. Been there quite a few times, but only to urban centers and not for very long. What IS it like for atheists in Saskatoon? Darwin? Hong Kong? Cork? Wellington? Mumbai? Teheran?

ATHEISM IN BRITAIN

INCIDENCE: Much larger than in the US - surveys usually come in around 40% nonbeliever

POLITICAL STRUGGLES: Negligible on either side. There are a few fundy groups about abortion and gay rights, but at nuisance level at worst. Similarly there is no move worth speaking of to remove religion from state schools (I had RE to age 15, and hymns/prayers are daily routines in almost all schools) or clergy from civic payrolls. Islam is a bit more problematic, but "separate but equal" schools and voluntary, within UK legal limits, Islamic adjudication options manage the tension fairly well

DEFINITION: The US fundy-derived idea that atheism necessarily includes a positive belief in the absence of gods is not much in evidence. The standard definition outside zealous opponents of atheism is the traditional philosophical one of lacking belief being the sine qua non, with certainty of disbelief very much a minority optional extra.

PUBLIC PERCEPTION: Casual acceptance on both sides. I would never have bothered with organized atheism there - and seen no point. Even though not a majority, atheism is generally seen as the expected cultural default as well as the intellectual default. When personal belief is discussed or discovered, positive theism is seen somewhat akin to being able to play the piano, or having a foreign parent. Nothing wonderful or terrible either, but worth noting as a distinguishing characteristic and passing curiosity.

Public expressions of disbelief likewise are neither shocking nor "cool" - people discuss their atheism like their taste in wine. It's something they may care a little or a lot about; something that may color other opinions, but nothing that is intended to define them as people or cause a stir.

In this context, Dawkins' criticism of religion is noteworthy not because of its controversial or original nature (it has neither in the UK) but because he obviously cares about it more than most and does see it as a big deal. The average UK atheist is indeed likely to agree with Sir Richard that religion is a bunch of crap - he's just not likely to see it as more important than thinking, say, grand opera is a bunch of crap; Dawkins obviously does. This attitude (not opinion!) also holds for the majority of religious Britons. They no more care that atheists think they are full of crap than opera fans care about the opinion of their detractors. "De gustibus and all that" seems to be the stance for most on both sides.

SOCIAL IMPACT: As can be imagined, little. Dawkins et al sell well because they write well and because Britons enjoy a righteous rant. He has spent a lot of time in the US so he rails much against what few Brits really understand in reverse - and the nature of his ranting would draw little controversy in the UK even if they did have the same exposure. It would simply be taken for granted that teaching creationism as science is asinine, and that gynecology is a secular subject. Atheism isn't much of a "cause" in Britain because it doesn't need to be. They have religious trappings there that even few Southerrn Baptist preachers would dare wish for here, but they never get beyond trappings. Religion stays for the most part as something kids study for 80 minutes a week and old biddies sing about for 80 minutes on Sundays.

SUMMARY: Ironically, British atheism then becomes what many US believers wish it were here - a casual apathetic idea that doesn't kick up a fuss much. The rub is that to get atheism like that, you have to have religion like that first.

[rrneck]

1. I wish DU3 had two things.

An enthusiastic rec button and a bookmark feature.

Good stuff that should prompt more good stuff.

[frebrd]

3. I wish the Rec button worked for me.....

but it doesn't (like a number of other things here), and I really don't understand why we can't bookmark.

[rrneck]

5. I don't think they've programmed bookmarks yet.

You might ask them about the rec button over in Meta.

[GliderGuider]

2. Canada is much closer to the British end of the spectrum than the American.

I haven't had a heated discussion about religion/atheism anywhere here in almost 60 years.

As the children of atheist parents going to a rural one-room school back in the 50s, my two sisters and I were regularly excused from religious instruction classes. When I went to high school in 1963 I protested the use of the Lord's Prayer during morning exercises, and was excused from that as well until the practice was dropped a couple of years later. I never received more than a raised eyebrow from either teachers or students in both cases.

The religious belief of political candidates is not an issue, and never gets raised during campaigns.

Atheism is seen as utterly unremarkable here.

[frebrd]

4. "Atheism is seen as utterly unremarkable here."

That sounds wonderful. I live only a hundred miles or so south of Victoria, but it's like living in a different universe! Must be nice to live in a civilized country.

[LeftishBrit]

6. On the whole I'd agree with you..

with a few modifications.

(1) One thing about religion in the UK is that there is much less of a dividing line between Christianity and atheism than in some places. Many people are culturally Christian but don't believe in anything very much. They are religiously indifferent, and don't really care enough about it to be atheists. This is and has been common among our leadership, and makes it virtually *impossible* to tell what percentage of our Prime Ministers were unbelievers - any answer from 3% to 50% would probably be defensible!. Most were culturally Anglican; but many did not have strong beliefs. There are still debates about whether Winston Churchill, about whom more is known than about most Prime Ministers, was a believer or not!

Having said all that:

(2) There is one part of the UK where religion is important and the Religious Right is significant. That is Northern Ireland. A lot of the conflict there is more ethnic than religious; nevertheless, the Paisleyites are certainly genuinely preoccupied with Religious Morality, and for example laws about abortion are much stricter there than elsewhere in the UK.

(3) There is also a version of extreme social conservativism, often though not always linked to religion, that appears in the tabloids and especially in the last few years in the Daily Telegraph. This is linked to economically right-wing attitudes, and increasingly (perhaps since newspapers went online?) to a certain solidarity with American Republicans and hatred of Obama.

(4) Although it is unusual for the religious right to be significant in the UK outside of Northern Ireland, it can happen, and *because* it's not the norm, it's easy to get blindsided by it. If someone had told me in 2008 that within two years there would be a right-wing nut (Andrea Minichiello Williams) getting her 12-year-old daughter to sing an anti-abortion song in one of our local churches; that this church and a couple of others would be encouraging faith healing in the local streets, including people with serious conditions; and, worst of all, that the political pro-life movement would engage in a vile and ultimately successful smear campaign to defeat our MP in favour of a Tory, and that this would then be taken up as an inspiration by other RW pro-lifers - I would never have believed it!!! On the whole, I wish I was still in that state of happy innocence.

(5) The religious Left constitutes a higher proportion of the religious believers in the UK than the USA. Indeed, the upper echelons of the Church of England and to some extent of the Catholic Church here tend to be quite liberal, and are often a nuisance to Conservative governments (they actually tend to think that it's a bad thing to trample all over poor people!) The sort of people whom I've described under (3) and (4) are often explicit rebels against the country's current religious leaders.

[uriel1972]

7. Australia is pretty much in the UK camp nt.

[mr blur]

9. Indeed, you sum up as eloquently as ever! In fact, last month,

the Reverend Dr Giles Fraser resigned from St Paul's Cathedral, saying he could imagine Jesus being born at the Occupy camp.

I don't think that would have gone down well in the U.S., for example.

[Humanist_Activist]

8. Only been to Mexico and Canada briefly, so I can't really comment on the cultures there...

However, I wanted to mention that it seems to me that Dawkins doesn't seem nearly as controversial in Britain, and indeed is quite a popular scientist whose job was to popularize and communicate science to the public at large. My impression comes from some shows he hosted in Britain, and some he has an ancillary part in, such as "Inside Nature's Giants", where his specialty as an evolutionary scientist comes in. Indeed, I think its this background that makes him a staunch critic of religion, because many religions and religious people, directly challenge scientific research he has studied all his life with misinformation and ignorance.

This, I believe, explains much of his passion against the influence of religion in education, his rants against faith schools in Britain that teach creationism is rather noteworthy, particularly Evangelical and Muslim schools.