Lincoln Was An Atheist

[rug]

By Hank Campbell | May 2nd 2012 05:00 AM

Unless he gets hit by a bus, Mitt Romney is going to be the Republican nominee and be given the opportunity to lose in the election this fall.

I am not being a partisan liberal in saying that. He will lose. He has done some things right; announcing he won't take any taxpayer financing was smart. It means he can do what Sen. Barack Obama was able to do in 2008 and raise an unlimited amount of money and spend twice as much money as his opponent, whose name was on the campaign finance reform law and who couldn't very well renege on his own policy. Unfortunately, he can't also do what Sen. Barack Obama did and sucker the other guy into a commitment before backing out, so that playing field is simply level. Instead of one candidate spending as much as both candidates combined spent in 2004, we'll have two doing that - and then some. We could have our first $2 billion election campaign.

What Romney has going against him is religion. In March, during the Republican presidential primary, a Langer Research Associates exit poll found that 73 percent of Republicans claimed it mattered that a candidate shares their religious beliefs and 41 percent said it matters a lot. A Pew Research poll had Santorum doing twice as well as Romney among voters who felt religion was important. Obviously, Louisiana is not the entire U.S. but if it's accurate it shows Mitt Romney is generating Bob Dole 1996 levels of support, not George Bush of 2004 ones. Romney does not share the religious beliefs of most Americans, being a Mormon, so if that really is a barometer, he is in trouble. Maybe Republicans need to lighten up.



If Romney does win, it won't be the first time a candidate defied cultural mores; the first Republican president, Thomas Jefferson, was branded an atheist by opponents because of his commitment to separation of church and state. The first modern G.O.P. president, Abraham Lincoln, was extraordinarily difficult to pin down on religion, just like Jefferson. He didn't belong to any church yet he got elected just fine. I certainly can agree those people of 1860 were an exceptional generation of Americans but surely Republicans of 2012 have something going for them also when it comes to changing why presidents are chosen?

http://www.science20.com/science_20/blog/lincoln_was_atheist-89603

Misleading headline, interesting article.

[Goblinmonger]

1. and, apparently, a vampire hunter. n/t

[AlbertCat]

19. and GAY!

[Joseph8th]

25. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

Oh, that's too too funny.

[dmallind]

2. In all truth maybe he was m,aybe he wasn't.

All the frantic NTS arguments about Hitler faking his Christianity to sway public opinion certainly apply more so to Abe than Adolf for a start, and he certainly spoke far less about it.

It doesn't matter a toss of course. Lincoln could have been Fred Phelps or Hitchens in private for all it would have changed his actions and influence. He was not an untarnished paragon whose life could impart any truth value at all to his beliefs whatever they were (inasmuch as I've read about the guy my best very much layman's guess is some sort of vague ineffable Deism FWIW).

[Lint Head]

3. Great post. Lincoln also had no electricity or elevators for his cars.

[Thats my opinion]

4. Lincoln was a bona fide member of the church I served.

My predecessor at the University Church in Chicago read once that Lincoln said he would join any church that had no creed but the "simple faith of Jesus." So he had a bust of Abe cast, and one Sunday morning it was carried down the aisle and Abe was welcomed into the congregation. It was still there when I arrived in 1967.

[trotsky]

5. Sounds like a Mormon posthumous baptism.

Creepy.

[Thats my opinion]

8. Lighten up!

My predecessor who died in the 50"s was making a point. That church--and to this day--has no creed but anyone who feels a commitment to the ethic of Jesus is welcome. Even you trotsky. He was just saying that had Abe been around he would have been a fit (genuine--bona fide) candidate for membership.

[trotsky]

9. That you do not see the arrogance and presumption in this...

is one of biggest reasons why Christianity has the problems it does.

[Joseph8th]

26. Yup. nt

[cleanhippie]

30. He may have been a fit, but he probably would (may) not have joined your congregation.

And to think that he would have, by posthumously inducting him in, is exactly the same as what the mormons do.


Get it now?

[Goblinmonger]

6. I do not think

that word means what you think it means. "bona fide" that is.

So anyone can claim someone as a member of their church if they make a bust of them and put it in the church? By the end of the day, Pope John Paul will be a bona fide member of my new church of atheism.

[laconicsax]

7. Holy crap! I didn't realize you were THAT old!

[dimbear]

10. Whoa. The first Republican president was Lincoln. The Republican Party didn't even

exist til about 1850.

Is the author thinking about a party called the Democratic Republicans? Completely different thing.

[PassingFair]

11. His law partner, Herndon, claimed that Abe was an atheist.

I've read that he burned many of his diaries when he
decided to enter politics.

And he certainly wasn't a "Christian".

He laced his speeches with Christo-speak, because people
"needed" to hear it.

[kwassa]

12. Abraham Lincoln attended the New York Ave. Presbyterian Church in DC

His pew has been preserved, and I've sat in the pew.

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/sites/nyave.htm

Amid busy downtown traffic stands a Washington church with strong ties to the Lincoln family -- a must-see for anyone interested in the Lincoln story. President and Mrs. Abraham Lincoln first visited the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church shortly after he took office on March 4, 1861, and often attended services until his death on April 15, 1865. Located three blocks from the White House, the building was new when the Lincolns walked through the doorway.

[trotsky]

13. And clearly, if one attends a church, they MUST be a Christian and not an atheist.

Right, kwassa?

[Goblinmonger]

14. Oh, SNAP!

Can I go sit in Hitler's pew?

[kwassa]

18. Uh, didn't you claim to be a history teacher?

I must be remembering that incorrectly, since you don't seem to understand the discipline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_and_religion

Noah Brooks, a newspaperman, and a friend and biographer of Lincoln's, in reply to Reed's inquiry if there was any truth to claims that Lincoln was an infidel, stated:

In addition to what has appeared from my pen, I will state that I have had many conversations with Mr. Lincoln, which were more or less of a religious character, and while I never tried to draw anything like a statement of his views from him, yet he freely expressed himself to me as having 'a hope of blessed immortality through Jesus Christ.' His views seemed to settle so naturally around that statement, that I considered no other necessary. His language seemed not that of an inquirer, but of one who had a prior settled belief in the fundamental doctrines of the Christian religion. Once or twice, speaking to me of the change which had come upon him, he said, while he could not fix any definite time, yet it was after he came here, and I am very positive that in his own mind he identified it with about the time of Willie's death. He said, too, that after he went to the White House he kept up the habit of daily prayer. Sometimes he said it was only ten words, but those ten words he had. There is no possible reason to suppose that Mr. Lincoln would ever deceive me as to his religious sentiments. In many conversations with him, I absorbed the firm conviction that Mr. Lincoln was at heart a Christian man, believed in the Savior, and was seriously considering the step which would formally connect him with the visible church on earth. Certainly, any suggestion as to Mr. Lincoln's skepticism or Infidelity, to me who knew him intimately from 1862 till the time of his death, is a monstrous fiction -- a shocking perversion.[44]

[Goblinmonger]

21. Nope. Wrong discipline.

English and Communication teacher. I have taught Civics (Master's minor is Poli Sci).

And you aren't seriously using Wikipedia as the end-all proof to support your claim after you just tried to mock me for not understanding history, are you?

ETA: And when are you going to address the standard you created which clearly makes Hitler a Christian?

[kwassa]

22. and when have I done that, Mr. Logic?

Try again.

[Goblinmonger]

31. By your anecdote that you sat in Lincoln's pew at a church he attended.

Which was clearly offered to show that Lincoln was indeed a Christian. Which makes Hitler a Christian with no other proof necessary.

As trotsky says below, you painted yourself in this corner. Go ahead and keep squirming about it.

[kwassa]

32. No, I offered additional proof which you have ignored.

Not my problem, very much yours.

[Joseph8th]

27. One of the problems with religion is ...

... that one is whatever one says one is. I'm a Spaghetti Monster worshiper or YHWH worshiper or Buddha reverer, etc. Prez. Obama says he's Christian, he's Christian. Lincoln said he was Christian, he was Christian. Hitler said he was, so he was. That's the problem, and that's why religion has no place in politics -- faith is slippery as snot, and can change with the blink of an eye, or be a mask or disguise for another religion.

Otherwise, we just devolve into the "Real Christians" argument, and who's to sit in judgment and sort the real followers of Christ and the CINOs? We have no choice but to accept whatever believers say about their belief at face value, or involve ourselves in aimless speculation.

[Thats my opinion]

15. On the fun chart of logical errors,. I counted 8 on this one alone. nt

[trotsky]

16. Congrats, tell kwassa!

Because it was an example intended to illustrate his logical errors. *sigh*

[kwassa]

17. Who said Hitler was an atheist? Not me. And since you know little about Lincoln ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_and_religion

Rev. James Armstrong Reed, in preparing his 1873 lectures on the religion of Lincoln, asked a number of people if there was any evidence of Lincoln being an infidel in his later life. The reply from Phineas Gurley, pastor of the same New York Avenue Presbyterian Church while Lincoln was an attender, to Reed's question was:

I do not believe a word of it. It could not have been true of him while here, for I have had frequent and intimate conversations with him on the subject of the Bible and the Christian religion, when he could have had no motive to deceive me, and I considered him sound not only on the truth of the Christian religion but on all its fundamental doctrines and teaching. And more than that: in the latter days of his chastened and weary life, after the death of his son Willie, and his visit to the battle-field of Gettysburg, he said, with tears in his eyes, that he had lost confidence in everything but God, and that he now believed his heart was changed, and that he loved the Saviour, and, if he was not deceived in himself, it was his intention soon to make a profession of religion.[43]

Want more? I can give you plenty

http://www.mrlincolnswhitehouse.org/inside.asp?ID=189&subjectID=4

The Rev. William Henry Roberts recalled:"As a member of the New York Avenue Church I was seated not far from Mr. Lincoln at Sunday services for a year and a half, and his attitude was always that of an earnest and devout worshiper. He was also an attendant at the weekly meeting, though for a considerable period taking part in the services privately. It having become know that he was an attendant at the prayer meeting, many persons would gather in or near the church at the close the service in order to have access to him for various purposes. Desiring to put an end to these unwelcome interruptions, the Rev. Dr. Phineas D. Gurley, the pastor of Mr. Lincoln, arranged to have the President sit in the pastor’s room, the door of which opened upon the lecture room, and there Mr. Lincoln would take a silent part in the service. He informed his pastor on several occasions that he had received great comfort from the meetings, and for the reason that they had been characterized more by prayer than making of addresses.”6

[trotsky]

20. You have maintained that Hitler was NOT a Christian.

The proof that we have of Lincoln being one is that he occasionally attended church, and some of his peers claim he was.

That's the same evidence we have for Hitler being a Christian. (Actually more, since we have lots of Hitler's own writings claiming such.)

Feel free to throw as much as you want - your logical error and double standards are on full display here and you'll only make it worse for yourself.

[kwassa]

23. In my opinion, Hitler was not a Christian. That is still my opinion.

My definition being different from yours, under which any demented shithead claiming to be a Christian is therefore a Christian. I disagree with that viewpoint.

What Hitler has to do with Lincoln I'll never know.

My quotes are from private individuals talking about their personal knowledge of Lincoln, in the discussion of religious matters. This is not Lincoln making political speeches about Christianity.

Go ahead. Find comparable discussions with Hitler. Not his political speeches, designed to win him political support. Personal conversations by reputable honest people about their impressions of him on the subject of religion.

[eqfan592]

24. So what is your definition of a Christian? (nt)

[Joseph8th]

28. The Real Christians argument again? Really?

Who is to decide? You are welcome to disagree with the viewpoint that any demented shithead who claims to be Christian is Christian all you want, but that's just you, alone, by yourself, doing that.

You can't seriously expect history to adjust itself to fit your opinion? What about the countless other demented shitheads who have killed and are currently killing for Christ? As soon as they do something un-Christian enough, by your personal standards, suddenly they are no longer Christian? Even though David and Solomon were demented shitheads beloved by the same demented shithead deity, and Jesus presides over the utter destruction and damnation of all life on Earth? I think Hitler was positively OT, and differs from David (had he existed) by about the same degree as he differs from Pol Pot. Much less than Jesus, who presides over the end of everything for his malicious demented shithead skydaddy.

[kwassa]

33. Please post in a state of sobriety.

``````````````

[trotsky]

29. There are also quotes from people with personal knowledge of Hitler, who claim he was a Christian.

I caught you in a logical trap of your own making again, kwassa. I'm happy to keep this going as long as you want.

[kwassa]

34. A logical trap? Not your strong suit.

From long experience, the longer we argue, the less logical you get.

[darkstar3]

37. You don't even know when you invoke logical fallacy. I don't think you're the one

to tell others when they are or are not logical.

[trotsky]

38. I see you've dropped any attempt to defend your failed logic.

And instead resorted to a personal attack, which definitely follows historical pattern. Better luck next time, kwassa.

[Angry Dragon]

35. are there really any true Christians??

[darkstar3]

36. Nope. I've asked that question countless times here,

trying to get some brass tacks definition that Christians will agree represents them. There isn't one. There's no such thing as a true Christian.