Has Islam and Christianity become dangerously politicized and extremist?

[pinto]

I think so. The broad majority of both faiths have seemed to lost a voice and influence among the various denominations, sects and practices. Extremism has grabbed a very public lead in practice and publicity.

I don't think the trend bodes well for any of us. Across the whole spectrum of religion meets politics.

The separation of church and state goes both ways. I'm adamant about that. Feel we should step out and support the standard- theists, agnostics, atheists and others.

[cbayer]

1. I would agree that the extremist in both religions have caused them

both to become overly politicized.

OTOH, the silver lining is that the pendulum is swinging back, particularly for christianity in this country. And I think Islam is gaining legitimacy in the US, which should really help with some of the bigotry and fear of US Muslims.

My daughter just become engaged to a Muslim from Pakistan. I know that they will face many negative things, but I think they will also be trail blazers. Both very good people and very much in love.

[pinto]

4. Ah, all of the best to both. How cool. Yeah, many challenges. Yet we are all moving forward.

One way or another.

It's interesting to me that the simple fact of living your life adds to the whole. It has probably always been that way.

Agree, I feel the pendulum is swinging back, for what it's worth in the big picture. I've been pleased to see the very public religious challenges to extremist conservative proposals.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. Have. And when werent they?

[madrchsod]

3. it`s much worse than it ever has been,

it used to the catholics ,then the jews,and now it`s islam. people have to have a reason to hate others who they perceive are not like them.

[msongs]

5. both have been since day one nt

[riverbendviewgal]

6. watch the BBC documentary POWER OF NIGHTMARES

It is very good and shows the extremism in both

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares

[cynatnite]

7. The question should be when weren't they?

History says both religions have been dangerous and extreme since it's inception just about.

[intaglio]

8. Become? They started political

Christianity took a while to get real power (Constantine) but they provided gangs for politicians before that (Ephesus and Alexandria are examples). Islam was always about power: the deal with the ruling tribes of Medina and the (re)conquest of Mecca 8 years later were purely political.

[pinto]

14. Understood. I was thinking more in a recent framework.

All of the hot-button political wedge issues here in the US seem to be a particular focus of extremist Christians. I hear little else from them politically, for that matter. A dangerous form of tunnel vision, imo. Especially in such a diverse country.

And extremist Muslims seem to be driving political debate in most Arab states, have an increasing voice in East Africa and a divisive presence on the Pacific archipelagos.



(ed for spell/syntax)

[LARED]

9. Could you expand on how and where

Christian extremism has grabbed a very public lead in practice and publicity.

I frankly don't see this.

[cbayer]

10. We are seeing more and more state laws that aim to restrict

a woman's right to choose. These are being driven my the christian right.

Legislation that denies full civil rights to GLBT people are driven by the christian right.

The recent controversies over the requirement under ACA that employers provide women access to reproductive medicine were driven by the christian right.

Is that enough?

[LARED]

20. Seems to me we are using different definitions of extremist.

All of those items you list are main stream issues that are hotly debated by the political middle. The problem I see is holding a view against those rights is not typically an extreme view. It is held by people that don't believe those issues are rights protected by law or supported by the government, or something similar to that.

The views you list as extreme are held by a significant number of people that simply disagree with us. The fact that the Christian right is active politically trying to influence the pols by itself does not define it as an extreme view.

The middle ground of honest debate seems to be shrinking all the time. Calling those that disagree extremist does no one any good. Pretty soon any disagreement will be considered extreme. Let's hope we never get there.

[Goblinmonger]

21. These issues do not exist without the religious beliefs of these people.

Or do you not understand that "liberal Christianity" is just getting more in line with secular morals as they become more "liberal."

I'm sure that will cause a great deal of cognitive dissonance for you as you have convinced yourself that all morals in the US stem from Christian morals, but mull it over a bit.

[LARED]

25. So explain how holding an opposing view from you or me of a mainstream political debate is extreme.

Even if those views are born via a religious belief.

I would suggest you are the one struggling with cognitive dissonance as exhibited by your need to redefine words to suit your view.

[Goblinmonger]

27. I realize that you would not see someone pushing their religion into laws as extreme

but it is. Remember, we are a secular government. That is what you said on another thread. These people want to push their religion in to our laws. Much like the religions did for centuries here with blue laws, anti-abortion laws, temperance laws, etc. The list goes on. When religion is pushed into our legal system, it sucks.

You having blinders does not mean I am redefining words.

[LARED]

34. So advocating via the political system is extreme

if those beliefs are in part or whole based on one's religious views?

You really want to go there?

[darkstar3]

35. Yes. Unequivocally yes. To invoke religion as the reason for governance

flies in the face of how our government was intended to function, and is the way in which extremists introduce legislation regarding morality and religion.

To put it another way, only extremists attempt to legislate their morality, or their religion, onto everyone

[cbayer]

24. Perhaps not extremist, but I see them as religiously driven political agendas.

And, as someone said in this thread, one take on this is that political extremists have gained too much control over religious groups.

I think the christian right was co-opted by extremists within the republican party and that they played on their beliefs about GLBT rights and abortion. They promised them action in order to get them politically motivated, then did very little to accomplish the things they had promised.

[LARED]

26. I agree. nt

[Goblinmonger]

28. Jump back into your way-back machine

and go see who was supporting anti-abortion laws half a century ago. It wasn't just the right-wing whackjobs. Liberal Christianity has become more compatible with the progressives because they are moving toward more secular basis for their morals.

[cbayer]

29. You jump in yours. Have a nice ride.

http://rcrc.org/about/history.cfm

[Goblinmonger]

30. It's not nice to refer to Catholics as whackjobs.

Mainline Protestant and Jewish leaders meet at the United Methodist Building in Washington, DC, to discuss the Roman Catholic Church’s pledge to overturn the new U.S. Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade.

I would get into trouble and get my post hidden if I were to say that the RCC was a crazy right-wing church. Catholic bashing and all that. Why do you get to say it?

[cbayer]

31. What a complete non sequitur.

How was your ride?

[Goblinmonger]

32. So are you saying the the RCC did not oppose Roe?

Or are you saying that they aren't mainstream religion?

Your whole argument is that the political right wing has taken over religions and that is the problem. So is the RCC a right-wing organization?

It's your corner you painted yourself into. Granted, I gave you the paint and the brush, but you went with it.

[cbayer]

33. I showed you a timeline of religious organizations supporting the right to choose

and you came back with some incomprehensible statement about how I was calling the RCC whack jobs (which never happened).

This whole idea that you gave me rope to hang myself and that's what I did is what makes it not fun to have discussions with you. But put a notch in your belt if that's what you think. You win, I guess.

[Goblinmonger]

36. You are missing the bigger point.

You and several others in Religion make a big deal out of giving respect to religion. You get upset when someone makes a comment about something that may include liberal (read: your) religion. But the same people that do that have no problem making fun of the religious views of the right. You were doing that here. You couched that in a move toward "political expression" but, at the core, it was still about their very conservative views.

Now, I and several others have tried to point this out to you and the others that do this but to no avail. So when I saw you making the comment, I will admit that I went into debate mode and thought ahead about 3 moves to try and make my point a little more clearly. You made comments about religions becoming more conservative and politically active and how that was bad. And before you shake your head at me again, reread your post where you give me the link to the timeline. Tell me that you weren't posting that like you won. Of course you were. The problem is that you didn't realize the point I was going to make. That by making light of the conservative religions for becoming politically active for their conservative views, you were also including the Catholic Church. When that was pointed out to you, you encountered some cognitive dissonance between what you tell others on here and what you actually do.

You have two options at this point. Either continue to dismiss what I did as the move of a someone not fun to talk to, or, perhaps, you could take this time to reflect on what it is you do and how you take shots at the true religious beliefs of the right and realize that it is no different than what the atheists in here you don't like are doing all the time regardless of the political bent of the religion. You and your father don't like it when people go after asshole moves by liberal organizations. Too bad. As a wise person once said, assholes are assholes. Some times those assholes are liberal and sometimes they are conservative (more the latter than the former, imho).

As to your last couple sentences: what isn't fun is that you were, again, caught in a level of hypocrisy which makes you feel uncomfortable. I apologize for that. You have not been willing to see this point through other means. Hopefully you get it now.

[eqfan592]

11. Hmmm...

Well there's your problem!

[westerebus]

12. Tea baggers come to mind as a political group.

Militias which are preparing for the collapse are near 100% self-identified as christian.

[cleanhippie]

13. Of course you don't.

Its been pointed out to you time and time again why, too.

[pinto]

15. See my post #14, plus other replies to you here. (nt)

[LeftishBrit]

16. Well, what about such politicians as Palin, Santorum, etc?

And religious leaders such as Pat Robertson?

[LeftishBrit]

17. I would put it more that political extremists have increasingly co-opted both Islam and Christianity

but yes, it's a danger.

[pinto]

18. Good point.

[cbayer]

19. I think this is what has really happened. Well said.

[Goblinmonger]

22. I disagree.

Islam and Christianity that isn't batshitcrazy is getting more in line with the secular morals of the culture. Perhaps we are noticing more how batshitcrazy the morals of the "old school" Islam and Christianity were, but fighting against abortion rights is nothing new for religion in the US and those that fought against them early on were not the tea baggers alone.

[darkstar3]

23. Not without great assistance from inside the religious organizations.