Prayer vs. Human Action

[MineralMan]

My younger brother is in a major teaching hospital in Los Angeles, and is in the process of either dying or receiving a liver transplant. I'm following his care and progress closely, but from St. Paul, MN. In doing so, I'm communicating with his son, a man of 40 years, who is also a fundamentalist Christian.

Yesterday, some significant improvement in his condition occurred. My nephew said to me, as the first thing he said, "God is healing him, due to my prayers and the prayers of the members of my church." I asked him, "Did the doctors there start a new treatment plan?"

His answer was that they had, and that "God was guiding their hands." I asked, "What did they do that led to his improvement." He gave me a summary of how they had proceeded.

I didn't get into any of what I'm about to say with him. It doesn't matter, really, and I want to maintain a regular communication with him so I can follow my brother's condition.

What guided those doctors' hands was their training, experience and access to advanced medical technology, not prayer and some deity. Those physicians use science, not prayer, to treat their patients. Without their skills and training, my brother would have died last week. He may still die. The odds are about 60:40 that he will die.

While it may ease my nephew's mind and the minds of his family and church members to give credit for his survival so far to prayer and God, it is a false way to look at the situation. Had he not been transferred to one of the best hospitals in the world and had he not had the advantage of a team of superb physicians on his side, he'd be dead right now. No amount of prayer would have affected that outcome.

I can't discuss this with my nephew, of course, but such things weigh on my mind when someone is critically ill and those who are close to that person give the credit for improvements to prayer and a deity. What of the person in the next ICU bed who died? Did that person's family not pray hard enough?

God is not looking after my brother, who is not a believer in the first place. A skilled, experienced medical team in that hospital is doing that. They are using skills that took them many years to develop. They are exercising careful judgment to decide on a treatment plan that involves a wide range of technology created by others who also have years of training and experience.

One patient dies. Another patient lives. No deity is involved. We all live or die when we are critically ill, based on our physical condition and the skills of those caring for us. No amount of prayer will alter the outcome, even though it may make the people praying feel as if they are doing something.

Medicine is science-based. Medicine is evidence-based. Medicine is not faith-based. Medical care will be what saves my brother's life, not prayer. I wish I could help my nephew understand that. It's not "God's will" that will determine the prognosis. That has nothing to do with it. It is a hopeless wish, though. If my brother lives through all of this, I will thank his medical team. My nephew will thank his God. How strange that seems to me.

[guillaumeb]

1. One can have both prayer AND human action.

One does not preclude the other.

Best wishes for your brother and his family.

[MineralMan]

2. Of course. One makes the non-patient feel better,

while the other actually benefits the patient. In far too many cases, however, people think the one that makes them feel better is more important that the one that helps the patient they're concerned about.

Professional medical treatment actually improves people's chances of survival. Prayer does nothing in that regard when offered by those who are not being treated.

There is no evidence that prayer heals anyone of real physical illnesses. There is a plethora of evidence, however, that professional, scientific, evidence-based treatment can help with many health issues.

Which do you think is more important for the patient? Which do you think should be the focus of my brother's son when we discuss his condition?

[guillaumeb]

4. Your first paragraph perfectly summarizes the issue.

While the placebo effect is interesting, the most important thing in my view is medical treatment.

If your brother's son is convinced of his position, and if he asked you about it, I would respond to him that his prayers are undoubtedly of worth. That is a general enough answer that could be interpreted in many ways. And if it is important for the son to talk about the issue in this way, it might be of personal benefit to your brother's family.



On a personal note, I represented people in my union local for over 33 years. One day I was talking to a co-worker and friend who is a Baptist Minister. A person who was passing later asked me if I was a Christian. I responded yes. He asked why I never said anything about it at work and my response was that I was his union representative, not his spiritual adviser.

[MineralMan]

6. I do not discuss religious issues with family members.

I consider such things to be personal choices and do not wish to insert myself into such things. I do wish, however, that there was better recognition on the part of my nephew of the actual people, technology and processes that are working to safe his father's life. He seems to be distancing himself from that part of the process, although he will describe what measure are being taken if asked directly.

He is the person on the scene. I need this information to communicate with my brother's and my parents, who are in their 90s and are completely non-religious. I need to give them actual reports on his condition. My nephew is aware of my atheism, but continues to begin conversations with a discussion of the prayers that are being offered.

This also interferes with his understanding of what the medical professionals around him are sharing with him. He more or less dismisses medical information and makes it secondary to his religious beliefs. It is frustrating, to put it bluntly. I do not care one bit about his prayers. I want to know medical information about my brother's condition, so I can share it with others.

[guillaumeb]

7. Understood. Definitely a dilemma.

And because of current laws regarding medical privacy, only the patient or a designee can receive information. A thought, which depends on your brother's mental state and wishes, is to ask if he would authorize you to also receive medical updates.

Good luck.

[MineralMan]

8. I am authorized for those updates, but must rely on my nephew,

since he is the one on the scene, and is the one who sees the doctors and other medical professionals. Phone calls to such professionals never work out. They're very busy with their patients. They tell the story once, and once only.

[Voltaire2]

13. " I would respond to him that his prayers are undoubtedly of worth"

so you would basically lie to this person?

There is no placebo effect or any other beneficial effect from third party praying. It's been tested. In one study there was actually a slight negative effect when patients knew that people were praying for their recovery.

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?mcubz=0

[guillaumeb]

14. Not a lie.

The son's prayers are of worth to him, or he would not pray. The son is described as a fundamentalist Christian, so his prayers are of worth to him, or he would not pray.

And as I stated, it is a vague enough answer that can be interpreted in many ways.

[Voltaire2]

15. That is still lying.

Or if you prefer, being less than honest about what you mean.

[guillaumeb]

16. Are you the final authority on what is important to the son?

If not, I fail to see your point.

[marylandblue]

17. It's being deliberately vague in order to hide your meaning

You believe that his prayers are important because they are important to him, but you don't want to come out and say that, because he would disagree and say that the prayers are important because they are important to God. So you say something vague enough such that he can interpret it the way he wants without him realizing you actually think something different than his interpretation.

[guillaumeb]

18. With his father suffering and in the hospital,

would you suggest
1) being diplomatic, or
2) would you suggest starting an argument that will convince neither side of anything and will increase the already stressful situation?

And if you suggest that the second option is the better action, please explain your reasoning.

[marylandblue]

19. I suggest sticking to their common point of agreement

which is hoping that his father survives and not responding to any attempt at discussing religion.

[gtar100]

3. That kind of behavior has always struck me as insensitive and insulting.

Very dismissive of people's efforts in difficult situations. "God's will" is like putting the same bet on both heads and tails on a coin toss. Can't lose either way. Empty win.

I don't dismiss the practice of prayer entirely though. It's been misused by church authorities for a long time, it's no wonder so many have this odd notion that prayer is a space to to try to convince God to do something and to save our egos from the feeling of powerlessness in the face of situations beyond our control or to give us a feeling that we're doing something noble without any investment in the situation.

I have no empirical knowledge of what the original intent was a behind the practice, but from my own experience of trying it, it has the effect of aligning and focusing both the the heart and mind. Very similar to meditation but more engaged in the content of thought. And out of that space my actions feel guided by a greater clarity. Like so many things, I can imagine such a thing can be used with wisdom or misused out of ignorance or bad intention. It can also be used with good intention with the same benefits even if it's couched in cultural traditions. It just does what it does.

And it can be dismissed by anyone who hasn't really experienced the need for it. It doesn't appear to be a requirement for a good life... like breathing. It's a tool and it does what it does and nothing more. But for the right purposes, it's a very effective tool.

[MineralMan]

5. You recognize that the effect is on the one who is praying,

not on anything or anyone else. That is my point, really. I use different strategies, since I am an atheist, but the effects are the same, really. My objection is to people assigning to prayer what is the work done by people to actually accomplish external goals.

When used to focus, calm or reinforce one's own mental processes, I have no doubt that it is useful. However, as I described its use, it accomplishes nothing for the person who is in need of actual and real help.

[Mariana]

9. In this case, it is also incredibly insensitive and rude to MineralMan.

My take on this is that it isn't really about prayer and its value or lack thereof. This is a hostile Christian who is needling an atheist just because he can. The nephew knows MM doesn't want to hear about his religion. He's taking advantage of this situation to force MM to listen to him preach. It really is a rotten thing to do to a man whose brother may be dying.

[Lordquinton]

20. And his father, who was mentioned to be non-religious

Why are the needs of the son put above everyone else in this situation?

[Mariana]

21. Well, in this situation, it's because he's in a position of power.

He has the information MM and the rest of the family want very badly. MM has little choice but to listen to his nephew babble on about his church and their prayers, and the nephew knows it.

[Lordquinton]

24. Using his position to push his agenda

Weilding his privilege like a bludgeon, forcing all to accept his will.

[trotsky]

22. "Why are the needs of the son put above everyone else in this situation?"

Two words: religious privilege.

If the situation were reversed here, and the son was an ardent atheist who insisted on denying everyone else's religious feelings, he'd be the bad guy. But because he's a fundie Christian and wants everyone to acknowledge his view, the atheists must allow it.

Religious fuckin' privilege.

[Lordquinton]

23. This is the best point

We're he forcing a priest on the old man he'd be seen as caring and thoughtful, doing what he thinks is best, and his father should graciously accept the offer. If he were keeping priests away people would be threatening lawsuits.

Privilege runs very deep indeed.

[marylandblue]

10. What gets me is how little prayers used to work

100 years ago, people died of pneumonia no matter how much they prayed. Now, through scientific medicine, it's easily cured with antibiotics. What happened? Did thousands of years of accumulated prayer over dying pneumonia victims finally cause God to guide Alexander Fleming to inventing antibiotics? Why did they have to suffer and die through such a terrible disease and we do not?

[MineralMan]

11. Before modern medicine and medications developed, often

prayer was the only thing available, I suppose. During the 20th Century, medicine made fantastic advances. Today, we have the capability of saving people's lives who would have had zero chance of survival not all that long ago in the past.

[Voltaire2]

12. And now it seems we have done something wrong and our prayers' effects are weakening.

Antibiotics are not doing the job anymore. Obviously we need to step up the prayers. Or perhaps goat sacrifices?