After Las Vegas, who says prayer doesnt work?

[guillaumeb]

From the article:

This idea has been playing out on social media ever since a shooter killed at least 58 and injured hundreds of others in Las Vegas. For every one tweeter offering prayer, there was one tweeter mocking them.......

As a person who both prays and writes about people who pray, I found these comments naive, arrogant and misinformed. First of all, how is prayer supposed to “work”? What does “success” even look like when we’re talking about prayer?...

But I don’t know many religious people who think of prayer this way. Instead, many of us see prayer the same way that St. Therese of Lisieux sees it: It’s “a surge of the heart; it is a simple look turned toward heaven...........

To read more:

http://religionnews.com/2017/10/04/after-las-vegas-who-says-prayer-doesnt-work/

[trotsky]

1. Who says that?

Everyone except for those blind to their religious privilege.

[guillaumeb]

2. Or those blind to the meaning of prayer.

That might be who.

[trotsky]

3. You're right, it couldn't possibly be religious privilege, because that doesn't exist.

My bad.

[guillaumeb]

6. Perhaps we should talk about the types of priviledge?

[Act_of_Reparation]

8. Please do.

[guillaumeb]

9. No, after you.

[Act_of_Reparation]

10. I have nothing to add at present. I agree with trotsky's summation.

You apparently object. Don't hold back, good sir. Make your objections known.

[guillaumeb]

11. That does not surprise me.

Always good when the chorus hits the same notes.

[Act_of_Reparation]

12. I'm sorry, you were saying something about religious privilege?

You seem to have teetered off course there.

[guillaumeb]

13. I did not bring up the topic.

So the author of the comment is rightfully the one to expound on the topic.

(HINT: See comment #3)

[Act_of_Reparation]

17. He made his position clear.

By virtue of your response you indicate that his position is either incorrect or incomplete, suggesting that we should talk about the types of privilege.

I find your suggestion immensely agreeable. Please discuss the types of privilege.

[guillaumeb]

18. Agreed, that discussion should take place.

But not in this post.

(Hint: You might want to look at Trotsky's initial response, the part where Trotsky actually introduced the topic)

[Act_of_Reparation]

27. You're talking about the post...

...where trotsky said the automatic assumption that prayers should be welcomed and appreciated is a symptom of religious privilege?

Yeah, I read that post. I'm more interested in your response. Live I've said. Over and over again.

[trotsky]

23. Sure! But since we're in the Religion group, there's only one type that is on topic.

I'll start.

Don’t Believe in Christian Privilege? These 15 Examples Will Leave No Doubt
https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/01/believing-christian-privilege/

Please read that article (it's not terribly long, certainly only a couple of minutes for someone as incredibly smart as you to read) and let me know if you still think religious privilege (Christian privilege in this country) doesn't exist.

Then you take a turn, and tell me why religious privilege isn't a thing.

This should be fun!

[guillaumeb]

28. There are many types of privilege.

No debate there.

[trotsky]

34. So do you, or do you not, acknowledge religious privilege?

Yes or no.

[guillaumeb]

36. I acknowledge many types of majority privilege.

There are always certain types of privilege in any society.

[trotsky]

38. I'll take that answer as a statement that you do not believe religious privilege exists.

Thank you for clarifying. Feel free to correct me if you wish.

[guillaumeb]

39. Feel corrected.

[trotsky]

42. Please state clearly for the record that you acknowledge religious privilege exists.

Thanks in advance.

[guillaumeb]

44. Are you a certified court reporter?

I had no idea that this was a legal proceeding.

But, for the record, the idea of majority privilege is obvious, and given that the majority of people in this country are theists, it follows that theists enjoy a majority privilege in this country.

Just as atheists enjoy a majority privilege in non-theistic societies.

[trotsky]

49. I've had far too much experience with your discussion tactics, I'm afraid.

Your inability (or simple unwillingness) to answer the most basic questions in a straightforward, unambiguous manner is well-known to many.

But again, your answer here is more of the same. You refuse to acknowledge, let alone try to understand, actual religious privilege (as opposed to generic "majority privilege" ) is disappointing. But then again, you have a demonstrated history of disregard and disdain for the non-religious, with your insistence that you get to define atheism the way you want.

[guillaumeb]

50. A rereading of my answer might clarify it for you.

In future, if you require only a one word response it might be helpful to so state.

[trotsky]

53. It's your usual kind of response.

I'd much rather just let you continue to put on your act for everyone else to see (and be warned).

[guillaumeb]

54. If one poses a complex question,

one should anticipate a complex response.

If however, you would ask me to name my favorite color, or my favorite singer, that would be a much shorter answer.

[trotsky]

55. To refresh your memory,

My question was: "So do you, or do you not, acknowledge religious privilege?"

Pretty simple question. You would answer it either "Yes, I do acknowledge religious privilege," or "No, I do not acknowledge religious privilege."

So what's your answer?

[guillaumeb]

58. I already answered. But, in the interrest of ease of dialogue,

yes.

[trotsky]

60. Holy crap, why was that so difficult?

You could have answered my initial question that way, and spared us all from this nonsense.

So since we're here in the Religion group, let's discuss religious privilege.

One talking point that you are incredibly fond of repeating (despite it being the argumentum ad populum fallacy, laughably enough) is that a majority of people (at least in the US) believe in god. This confers a considerable privilege for a believer, allowing them to:

1) Assume that a random person they interact with also believes in god, and

2) Feel confident that anyone who is not a believer should silently defer to the majority when public prayers and religious ceremonies are conducted.

Do you agree with the numbered items above being some of the signs of religious privilege?

What do you believe are some of the elements of religious privilege that you enjoy?

[guillaumeb]

62. Why did you find my responses so difficult?

As to your "argument", you are attempting to argue with statistics, so your argument is with those who compile the statistics.

[trotsky]

63. Your responses weren't difficult, you made the PROCESS difficult.

So am I correct in that you now will no longer claim the majority of people in the US are believers in god? That had been one of your frequent go-to comments, but now you seem to say that's a topic for statisticians.

All I want to do is discuss religious privilege with you, and again you're just making the process difficult - probably because you know you'll just humiliate yourself again.

[guillaumeb]

64. You look at statistics regarding the proportion of religious believers

in the US.

You can do it like this, if you wish:

PRINCETON, N.J. -- About nine in 10 Americans say they believe in God, and one in 10 say they do not. However, when presented with more than a "yes or no" option, about eight in 10 say they believe and one in 10 say they aren't sure. Belief in God, regardless of how the question is phrased to Americans, is down from levels in past decades.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/193271/americans-believe-god.aspx

I generally state that about 85% believe. If you have different numbers, feel free to present them. So yes, at this point, your fight is with polling organizations.

[trotsky]

65. LMFAO

You actually think that's a response to my questions about religious privilege?

I mean, I understand why you desperately want to change the subject before you humiliate yourself again, but I've got news for you: you already did.

[guillaumeb]

66. Perhaps you should stop laughing and read your previous post.

The one that said, in part:

So am I correct in that you now will no longer claim the majority of people in the US are believers in god? That had been one of your frequent go-to comments, but now you seem to say that's a topic for statisticians.

I understand your often demonstrated need to pivot and reframe when you are proven incorrect, but your posts are available to read and reread.

So no, your assumption is again incorrect,t because statistics do actually show that the majority of US residents do believe.

[trotsky]

67. Just exploring where your tactics are leading you.

Not my fault when you end up not only having painted yourself into a corner, but standing in the bucket of paint too.

[guillaumeb]

68. Trying out a stand up act? More practice is needed.

So, to borrow from you, are you admitting that my claim about religious belief in the US is correct, and does that further mean that you will stop denying and/or questioning it?

[trotsky]

69. When did I ever deny or question that the majority of US residents believe in god?

Defend this claim. Please post a link.

[guillaumeb]

70. #63

[trotsky]

71. Nope, not seeing a denial there.

Try again. Dig that humiliation hole as deep as you'd like. Everyone's laughs will just echo louder for you.

[guillaumeb]

72. I understand. I do. Have a nice day.

[trotsky]

73. Mission accomplished!

You avoided having to actually participate in a real discussion.

I guess humiliation is a small price to pay for not having to defend your beliefs - when you can't actually defend them.

You have a nice day as well! Let me know if you'd ever like to talk about religious privilege!

[Act_of_Reparation]

74. It's something I'm told we *should* talk about.

But not here. And not now. Because reasons.

[trotsky]

76. There are many kinds of privilege.

Some of them are good kinds. Both sides. Believe me.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. Tell the evangelicals that seem to think intercessory prayer is a thing.

Your issue is with them, not us, and there's about a hundred fucking million of them, so limber up your typing fingers before you tackle it.

[guillaumeb]

15. Prayer can have a different meaning to each person who prays.

Some believe in a personal prayer hoping for a personal intervention. If someone tells me that they are praying for something, I might say that I hope your prayers are answered.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. Well, I never pray, so mission accomplished.

[Bretton Garcia]

25. The Biblical meaning of prayer changed, twisted.

Often 1) in the Bible, the people ask or pray to God for things, and he delivers. 2) But then? Since often God didn't make good on that original kind of promise?

Since there were many "unanswered prayers"? The meaning of prayer was slyly twisted by many religious sophists. To G's kind of presentation of prayer. As a mere form of self expression. And not a request.

Many Christians, evangelicals, though, still hold to the original definition. And they are constantly disappointed. To find that God does not really answer most prayers; that contrary to much of the Bible, God does not deliver fully everything he promised; "whenever" we pray or request or "ask" for.

Until very recently, in the dictionary, the word "pray" retained the sense of a request; as in say, "Pray" or "please tell us what the weather is outside."

[WhiteTara]

56. To whom do you pray?

Outside Mind there is no Buddha
Outside Buddha there is no mind

[Bretton Garcia]

59. To redefine prayer as mere forlorn hopes...

.. and their forlorn, not too hopeful or expectant expression, is an interesting move, though.

[guillaumeb]

61. Your move perhaps. eom

[Bretton Garcia]

75. "A surge of the heart"; a look toward heaven.

But without expecting or seeing concrete results, or any tangeable things requested? After many years, and no obvious results, this expression of hope, often becomes forlorn. And is biblically called a "lament." As in Lamentations

[guillaumeb]

78. Again, your interpretation of the actions and thoughts of others.

I understand.

[Bretton Garcia]

80. Vs. their always accurate internal understanding of themselves?

The 1) Bible told us that quite often people are deceived regarding themselves; deceived by internal devils like Vanity.

In the present example 2) in any case, I'm accordingly not referring to people's internal perception. Instead, I'm looking at biblical evidence, history. Where we are given dozens of pages where the people ask why God is not protecting believers, and fulfilling his promises. In those examples, we see the old hopeful prayers transition to near-complaint and disillusionment. Or lamentations.

Although it is always risky to try to read people's internal thoughts, it might be that similarly, your own internal views here, on related subjects, may have changed somewhat over the last year or so. In that case, the classic transition that I see in the Bible, and in some people, might be interesting to you, or others.

I'm speaking of a gradual transtion in the quality of prayers and supplication. From early, 1) confident prayers confidently asking for and expecting physical tangeable help from God. To 2) expressions of at least vague optimism. To 3) at least hope. To 4) a sense of forlornness. To 5) lamenting the apparent failures of the faith.

[guillaumeb]

81. Your "progression" obviously might appeal to you,

and to the already convinced.

[Lordquinton]

4. We're at a point where it can be called out

With lesser fear of reprisal. Privilege is the key here, that saying "I'm praying for you" is supposed to be graciously accepted, and never questioned.

If you say, for example, "please don't pray for me" you become the bad guy, and probably draw hate, which reveals the true motivation behind the praying.

You ask people to think from other points of view when you yourself don't.

[BigmanPigman]

5. Spot on...every word!!!

[guillaumeb]

7. I never say "I will pray for you", unless I know that the person

is a believer.

But if someone does say to you "I will pray for you", do you assume that the speaker is attacking your beliefs? Sometimes people respond automatically, or as a custom. Insult should not be assumed. If someone says "to hell with you", or a similar thing,that is probably not an attempt at conversion, but an indication of how deeply faith is ingrained in society.

[Mariana]

19. Whence this compulsion to announce that you intend to pray?

Not you in particular, guillaumeb - this behavior seems to be widespread among Christians in general. It seems a strange thing to do. Is it important that other people know you're going to pray? Christ had a strong opinion about people who made sure others knew they were praying, according to the stories. He didn't think very highly of that behavior.

[guillaumeb]

29. I believe it is a custom, like wishing someone a nice day.

Verbal customs are quite prevalent. Almost an automatic response for many people, similar to Trump telling hurricane victims to have a nice day.

And some of these people might actually pray for others in that way.

[Lordquinton]

20. Not what I said

What is wrong with asking someone to not pray for them? That's the question.

[guillaumeb]

30. Nothing wrong about asking, if the person feels that strongly.

But if you do not believe in the utility of prayer, the prayer will do nothing.
If you do believe, the prayer might work.

So where is the issue?

[Lordquinton]

48. What's the issue?

Exactly what I said the issue was.

[trotsky]

24. Fascinating how you perfectly demonstrate what religious privilege is all about.

'How DARE you assume your beliefs are being attacked? Why can't you just accept the well wishes and remain silent about your own beliefs (or lack thereof)? It's just a custom, get over it!'

Irony is not dead.

[guillaumeb]

31. I think that you are assuming far too much.

Far, far too much.

If you were to hear "Merry Christmas", would you assume that the greeter was attacking you personally?

[trotsky]

35. Again you illustrate the very thing you deny.

Fascinating.

For the record, no, I don't assume that. But some people in some circumstances would.

[guillaumeb]

37. So what DO you assume upon hearing "Merry Christmas"?

[trotsky]

40. That the person saying it assumes it is an appropriate greeting.

With privilege comes the ability to assume one's own views are shared by everyone else.

[Mariana]

41. In some instances, the individual saying "Merry Christmas"

IS attacking someone personally. Just like sometimes the person saying "I'll pray for you" is doing it deliberately to offend. There's no need to assume anything. Most non-Christians in the US can very easily tell the difference between an expression of genuine good wishes and a passive-aggressive swipe. Most have had plenty of experience with both.

[guillaumeb]

43. Are you certain of the intent of everyone who uses either expression?

If I knew that you were a non-theist and said it anyway that might just be a passive/aggressive attack. Or it could be forgetfulness on the part of the speaker.

[Mariana]

45. In that instance, you're being rude either way.

It's rude to inject your religion into a conversation about something else. It's rude anytime, but it's especially so when you don't know for certain that the other person wants to hear about it. Forgetfulness isn't an excuse, because you shouldn't be so ill-mannered as to do that in the first place.

And why do people insist on saying Merry Christmas to strangers? Has anyone spent the last several weeks wishing everyone a happy Columbus day? No, they haven't. What's the difference?

[guillaumeb]

46. No idea.

I respond as the initial speaker does. If you say "happy holiday" I will respond in the same way, or simply say "and you also".

[marylandblue]

21. How prayer works in the Bible

Psalm 137


7 Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
“Tear it down,” they cried,
“tear it down to its foundations!”
8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is the one who repays you
according to what you have done to us.
9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

[Angry Dragon]

22. Where is your PROOF that prayer works??

I have noticed that you, for the most part, refuse to truly answer questions put to you
Why is that??
Up above you stated that prayer means different things to different people. List those different meanings, or at the very least explain what prayer means to you in very concise terms.
You owe it to the readers of your OP.

[guillaumeb]

32. After reading the article,

I felt it expressed my feelings. So if you have read the article, you have some idea.

I believe that prayer is an expression of reaching out to the Creator, and acknowledging the Creator.

[Angry Dragon]

47. Thank you for answering

[janterry]

26. I can't see how they would think St Therese didn't believe in 'the power of prayer'

I"m not religious anymore, but I sure know a lot about St Thérèse. She was really clear: After my death, I will let fall a shower of roses."

She really believed that that she would be able to respond to prayer - from heaven (those were the shower of roses.

I think in her own life, she accepted her fate (and martyrdom) as a humble sacrifice (she'd been dreaming of that since she was a young child. So, she didn't want that 'burden' lifted from her. Instead, she thought she could do more from heaven and lift the burdens of others.

edited because when I included her proper accents, it just deleted both of the e's in her name.

[guillaumeb]

33. Accents cannot geneally be added in the heading line.

An interesting oversight, but English speakers do not need accents in that language.

[SonofDonald]

51. And people wonder why atheists exist

No mystery there....

[guillaumeb]

52. Some might wonder. eom

[PJMcK]

57. How God answers prayers

When I was younger, I received an intensive education in the Bible, Christianity and its tenets. This was in a Lutheran church that was affiliated with the Missouri Synod.

We were taught that God answer prayers in one of three ways: Yes, No and Maybe Later.

See how that works? Only if God says Yes will you know the answer.

There are many other additional reasons why I am an atheist.

[Polly Hennessey]

77. Let me see --

you are saying that someone else praying will
help or make life better or bring about some type of change in our existence.

Ok, explain to me how someone or lots of someone's talking to themselves is going to make life better.

[guillaumeb]

79. Obviously prayer is an individual action.

And each individual might pray for different reasons. The act of praying itself may bring comfort to those praying. So if they feel better, does that not make their lives better?

[Voltaire2]

82. The act of shooting up in itself may bring comfort to heroin addicts.

So if they feel better, does that not make their lives better?

[guillaumeb]

83. Are all beliefs addictive?

Patriotism, theism, atheism, altruism, all beliefs?

[Lordquinton]

84. One of these things is not like the others

sad attempt at framing.

[guillaumeb]

85. Are you answering for Voltaire?

If so, are all beliefs addictive?

[Voltaire2]

86. Your claim was that if x feels good then x

Is a good thing to do. Clearly that is nonsense. You’ve recognized just what nonsense your argument was so now you are attempting, as usual, to steer away from that argument by pretending that I somehow claimed that some or all beliefs are addictive.

So we can discard “it feels good” as a defense of prayer. Did you have some other excuse for it?