Religion
Related: About this forumChristmas billboard campaign revisited
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this post won't disappear.
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)I guess people are more the same than they want to believe...
trotsky
(49,533 posts)In the case of non-belief, it's more like "you are not alone." I don't see any threats in those billboards, I don't see any false promises about the afterlife, I don't see them attacking anyone. Is that really the "same" as this kind of bullshit?
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)My beliefs to anyone. I don't find any of the
billboards posted here to be respectful.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Many don't even know there are others who don't believe.
I think it's worth letting them know they aren't alone.
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)Maybe that approach would contribute to being marginalized?.
It's a timely and effective message.
Let me ask you one question, though: do you think there are any ideas BESIDES religion that should be free from being questioned or doubted?
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)But when people start pushing their beliefs, rather than letting people believe what they will, there is often a tendency to get pushy and/or disrespectful (or just arrogant). That's how I feel about the billboard. I have no issue with people being atheist.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)As long as they're quiet about it.
Yeah, we get it.
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)It's free speech, say what you want. I don't really care. My first comment was that I think there is a parallel between any arrogant approach ("fake news" ) towards another's belief's, whether evangelical or atheist.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)If so, explain.
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)"We don't believe in God." "Join us for an atheist holiday." "Join millions wo have no belief in God." But to take Trump's derisive mantra?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)I would be okay with one that says "Atheists: You are not alone" Or even "Atheists meet every Tuesdays at Joe's diner." But they had to go the extra mile and diss religion with the "Fake News."
Talk about false equivalencies: are you saying that atheists are facing discrimination like the Muslims? totally apples to oranges there.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You stated:
"...when people start pushing their beliefs, rather than letting people believe what they will, there is often a tendency to get pushy and/or disrespectful (or just arrogant)."
Do you think the billboard in my post #55 is disrespectful (or just arrogant)?
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)They attack ideas, not people.
As a religious person, you FEEL you are being attacked when it's just your idea that is being criticized.
That's the problem I hoped to illustrate, and you helped me perfectly. Thank you.
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)I'm tellin' ya, not so different...
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Well, maybe someone else learned something. Thanks anyway.
Mariana
(14,856 posts)Expressing one's beliefs, or lack of them, is not "pushing", and neither is it preventing anyone else from believing what they will.
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)So can I just express my view and use the term "arrogance"?
Mariana
(14,856 posts)Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)That's setting the bar for disrespectful a little low, don't you think?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)"I disagree with you" is apparently one of the most offensive things you can say.
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)Trump's favorite derisive mantra
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)Please either explain how "I don't believe that stuff anymore" is disrespectful or clarify that you don't actually have a problem with that one.
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)I don't find that disrespectful and frankly I only find the billboard itself mildly disrespectful. People can say what they want. I just originally commented regarding the fact that both evangelists and atheist buy billboards and that some may share a zeal to convince others of personal beliefs that I don't understand.
Mariana
(14,856 posts)"I don't understand the need to advertise my beliefs to anyone. I don't find any of the
billboards posted here to be respectful."
Have you changed your mind, then?
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)Please re-post the billboard if I did
Mariana
(14,856 posts)HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)There's always an add at the top of an OP, so I must have thought that top one was just an add and I only saw the "fake news" one. Also it doesn't look like a billboard, but I'll comment. The bug eyes on the woman is a bit obnoxious, but the text doesn't bother me. Again, I have an opinion about what is respectful, but I don't have anything to say about someone's right to put up a billboard that says whatever they want.
Maybe some want me to be bug-eyed about these billboards like the woman in that add? Sorry, I just was commenting on the subject of billboards and beliefs... on both sides. It does feel like some on here actually want that reaction though so they can jump on it.
Mariana
(14,856 posts)Plenty of atheists have watched a friend, neighbor, coworker, or family member come utterly unglued when they learn we don't believe as they do. I understand why they used that image.
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)The eyes might be a little cartoonish, but if that's the worst which can be said about that one then it could be worse.
3catwoman3
(23,975 posts)left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)Do atheists give and receive Christmas gifts?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Because the origins of the holiday (and its major traditions) have nothing to do with Christianity.
left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)Please enlighten me
Cartoonist
(7,316 posts)This is a real event. No need to believe in any BS.
It never ceases to sadden me when someone knows all about Xmas, a phony date, but knows nothing about reality, like where we are in the universe, and how the Sun and Earth relate to each other.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)It's about the return of the sun. The cold is going to go away. The dark is going to go away. Let's celebrate because Spring's a-coming.
Do you need anybody to break the pagan roots of Easter to you? (spoilers: SPRING IS HERE; LET'S GET TO FUCKING!)
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Don't want to shock them too much at once, ya know.
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)The god's birth is celebrated based on the Winter Solstice.
The god's re-birth is celebrated based on the Spring Equinox.
The first words put in the god's mouth are, "Let there be light."
The god is often described as "The Light of the World."
The god's enemy is the "Prince of Darkness."
This is basically what happens when a sun-god cult gets waaaaaay out of hand.
Voltaire2
(13,027 posts)who are out to kill all your silly gods.
Why do you ask?
Shhhh!!! Don't let them in on the secret!
NeoGreen
(4,031 posts)...that provides a perspective similar to some of my views on the subject:
...
Iggo
(47,552 posts)I also get the day off with pay.
Thanksgiving, too.
And Good Friday.
Thoughts?
Mariana
(14,856 posts)Christmas is a national holiday. That means it's a holiday for everyone in the nation, not just a religious holiday for Christians. I believe it is also a state holiday in every state.
Here's an analogy. My husband is an immigrant, and he participated in Independence Day celebrations for years while he was not a US citizen.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Do you take issue with christian billboards that have the inverse message?
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)why do you think belittling their faith is the way to do it?
Or is the point just to belittle?
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Why is that?
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)I offered a better message for a better purpose.
You want to go off on a tangent of "billboards you don't like."
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)very typical of theists when responding to people who question them.
They are very relevant because whenever a billboard like this comes up people crawl over themselves to condemn it, while the inverse barely raises a blip. That you discard it so casually tells all that is needed about your views on that.
As an aside, did you ever consider that these billboards aren't aimed at you? Look past your privilege.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Which you answered with two questions.
You're not my employee, I don't command you, you don't answer to me. That's fine.
You also are not required to extend the same courtesy to me. That's fine, too. It's your "privilege."
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)And this was the first time that your image loaded for me, I'd have to go back and revise my statements, but that will have tonwait. For a while.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)Contrary to your indication that the OP billboards "bash" religion, they are put up to let others know that they are not alone if they are atheists. That feeling of isolation is something that a lot of atheists feel. Those billboards are not about converting Christians to atheism. Don't worry.
Do you really think that your example does that? Do you not realize that they example you post here completely leave atheists and atheism out of the discussion?
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)You don't think atheists are redeemed, too, in the story of Christ?
I don't know what century your vision of Christianity comes from, but most Christians believe judgment is reserved for God, and we are commanded to love one another. Some get it wrong, but most don't!
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)Maybe we don't really care. Maybe just keep it to yourself. Maybe we want to know that in the midst of all these overly open and out Christians there are SOME people that don't believe in a god just like we don't.
But, hey, it's all about you and your Christ. (You really don't see your privilege do you?)
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Proselytize much?
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)They are saying, "Hey, don't worry. There are other atheists out there. It's OK."
You have a problem with that message?
Last poster didnt like the discussion and locked the thread by self deleting.
I wont do that.
Mariana
(14,856 posts)Yes. We are all equally sinners and all equally deserving of eternal punishment for that.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)That's all you get from this?
Well, I guess it goes hand in hand with there is no meaning to life, it's all randomness, and we have no past and no future - we are of no consequence. Yaaay.
Mariana
(14,856 posts)There's plenty in the book that supports that.
I don't know where the rest of your post comes from. I don't know of anyone who believes there is no meaning to life, it's all randomness, we have no past and no future, and we are of no consequence.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)How could it be anything other than a pessimistic point of view?
Isn't this the path and the destination?
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)I believe lots of stuff that I've seen evidence for. I don't "believe IN" that stuff, though. I simply believe it's true.
Gods? Nah. I don't believe they exist, but I don't mind if you're able to believe that. I don't care all that much, really.
Where did you get the idea that atheists have no beliefs at all. "Theism" is a belief in deities. "Atheism" simply means a lack of believe in them. It's a simple word.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)or any other religions, then disbelief - a rejection of something as being untrue - is necessary.
Atheism - as often apparent here at DU - in not a passive position.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)I've studied them. I still don't believe that any deities exist. I don't disbelieve that people believe they exit. I simply don't believe they do, myself. I just don't have that believe, and can't imagine any way that I could believe that they exist. Belief is active. Non-belief is not. If you can, and do believe that a deity or deities exist, I accept that you believe. I just don't care and don't share that belief.
Good luck to you.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)It is not a pessimistic world view. That you think so is something you need to deal with, not us.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)I rest my case.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)What happens to you? You don't know. How is that less depressing?
The difference in my mind is that this life is IT for me. I HAVE to make the most of it because there is nothing after. I love every day. I do my best to let those I love know that I love them often, because there is a chance I will never see them again. Each day I see a beautiful sunset is an incredible experience that I cherish.
I get that you can't fathom the mindset that there is nothing after death. Doesn't mean I'm a depressed pessimist.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)and there is a pessimistic outlook.
As anticipated, you confirmed who has the pessimistic outlook.
What could be more pessimistic than "Nothing?"
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)At least I have an answer.
And you are kind of insulting, frankly. I gave you a very fair and heartfelt response about why I don't see my outlook as pessimistic and how that guides my daily life. And you just shit on that. So, plank in your own eye and all.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)How does "Maybe something but who knows" jive with atheism?
The OP is "kind of insulting" to a freakin' lot of people!
All I did was offer a positive alternative point of view.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)You have no proof of anything beyond my answer of "nothing." None. You don't know what happens. And, given the mean side of the Abrahamic god, there is the chance you get eternal punishment in a sea of fire. That's pretty depressing.
The OP is a billboard intended to make isolated atheists feel not alone. That's OK if some others are insulted. This is a discussion between individuals and I'm trying to get you to see your misconceptions of the world view of atheist (sure, there are some nihilists that are atheists, but that isn't a required view point--most I know are just like me).
Would it be great to think that I'm going to see my mom again? Sure. But I'm not. And as a result, I made sure to let her know how I felt and get the most out of every minute I spent with her while I had her. Am I sad she's dead? Sure. But we had a good run. Now I need to make sure my kids, wife, and dear friends know the same about how I feel and that we get to experience as much as possible together. How is that possibly pessimistic in your mind?
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Yes, it's a choice. And you still have no certainty.
If your choice makes you comfortable and content, so be it.
But if you were ever looking for more - who would want that shutdown and silent?
Mariana
(14,856 posts)What I would choose to believe has no effect whatsoever on reality. Wanting something to be true will never make it true.
SCantiGOP
(13,869 posts)How about eternal suffering in Hell.
And why would a loving and merciful God send anyone to that fate? Because he loves them!!
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)"Hell" is rejection of the meaning given to life and the purpose we have here.
"Hell" is a voluntary choice, not a punishment.
You argue there should be no consequences for the choices we make. My experience has been that just isn't the way the world works.
Voltaire2
(13,027 posts)Other people have different opinions on this hell thing. What if the eternal torture is reserved for people who believe that:
Hell" is rejection of the meaning given to life and the purpose we have here.
"Hell" is a voluntary choice, not a punishment.
OH NOSE!
Mariana
(14,856 posts)The wages of sin is death, or separation from God, or eternal torture, or some other unpleasant thing, depending on which flavor of Christianity one subscribes to. And the book makes it very clear that everyone is a sinner, so no one deserves to go to heaven. You can't earn your way in, the book says your good deeds are like filthy rags because everything is polluted by sin.
Christians, however, don't have to deal with the consequences of their sinful lives, after they've shuffled off the mortal coil. They get pardoned, no matter how horrible their acts might have been. So let's be honest about exactly who it is that wants - and expects - there to be no consequences.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)Nicely done. Christianity is the short-cut religion. One-step salvation. That's one of the reasons it flourished.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)no wonder you reject "religion."
But this sounds more like the tail wagging the dog than "fact."
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)And that's my observation about Christianity and why it grew so popular.
You might have a different opinion.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)I'm sure Christians have a much different opinion.
When they proclaimed their faith and were fed to the lions for entertainment, what were they getting away with?
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)For mant Protestants today, it's "by faith alone," even if you have a deathbed conversion. I've spoken to many Christians who think that. I even asked some if the Jewish children who died in concentration camps were in hell, and any of the camp guards who repented would be in heaven. And they said yes, that's how God in his "mercy" does it, because really we all belong in hell, just a few lucky ones get saved just be believing they will be saved.
If they think that's okay, they are no different from Republicans who don't care if the world goes to shit as long as they get their tax break. In fact, most of them are Republicans.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)What if the Calvinists are right? What if god just tosses you in hell because he fucking can? No reason. Just screw you.
What if the Catholics are right and you will not be in heaven because you had to chance to accept the one true religion and didn't take it? Or if you died before you were able to confess and had a mortal sin on your soul. Off to hell you go.
Of course there are consequences for the choices we make. I have consequences every day. I tend to think it is more realistic that my consequences are in the here and now and I don't have the ability to just ask for forgiveness for the crap I've done and avoid all punishment. Unless that isn't the Christianity I subscribe to, I guess.
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)More likely pessimists would choose that path, don't you think?
rurallib
(62,412 posts)Voltaire2
(13,027 posts)I try to be aware of reality as it is, not as it might be if only Zeus existed.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)if there were no Santa Claus?
Would you like to put up billboards?
Pessimism is like porn. I know it when I see it.
Liberals are supposed to be optimistic, aren't we?
Voltaire2
(13,027 posts)"Would the world be a better place if there were no Santa Claus?"
- there is no santa claus.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)to meet my expectations!
Voltaire2
(13,027 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Last edited Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:40 PM - Edit history (1)
You've come up with a lot of reasons to believe in something, none of which have anything to do with the belief being true. Is that what you teach your kids? 2+2=5, because having 5 apples is better than 4? Global warming doesn't exist because we should always be optimistic? And spend all your time praying to a god who doesn't exist because it would better if it did exist?Mariana
(14,856 posts)is because there are so very few of them. No one will report on the thousands upon thousands of religious billboards up there, in all their variety - some welcoming, some threatening, some loving, and some utterly hateful. It's normal to drive down the road and see religious billboards. It's very unusual to see those like the ones in the OP. The few that do get put up tend to get vandalized pretty quickly.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Given the reaction they've received so far on a left-leaning message board, it isn't difficult to understand why. Many on the left are only OK with atheists if we just shut up and stay in the corner.
Not a smart strategy given that the "unaffiliated" are now the nation's largest single "religious" group, but we all know how difficult it is for those who have benefited from religious privilege all their lives.
d_r
(6,907 posts)but these particular billboards in these pictures are kind of stupid. The message isn't "you aren't alone" it is antagonistic, and the reaction that "believers" have to that will be to cling to their beliefs even harder. That's how people are. Think of cognitive science. Anyone who disagrees with it will only feel more strongly in their disagreement in response to it. The people that go to church have strong feelings about it, and attacking it is only going to put them on the defense. There's nothing really positive here for anyone, just na-na-na.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Were theists more receptive to our perspective? More willing to reevaluate their privilege?
If so, I totes missed it.
d_r
(6,907 posts)those are the only two options though.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)If there's some way an atheist can say "I am an atheist" in public without pissing someone off, I'm all ears.
d_r
(6,907 posts)I think there is a difference between "apathiest" (don't care), "atheist" (don't believe), and "antitheist" (against). To me, this billboard is more "antitheist" than "atheist," but nobody asked me for my input on it anyway.
Mariana
(14,856 posts)I don't much like these, I prefer the ones that simply say something like, You're Not Alone and put up a link to a website of some such thing.
However, the fact remains that even the most hateful Christian billboards never get written up as a new story, while there are articles about even the most benign atheist ones that have no offensive language whatsoever.
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2016/08/dont_believe_in_god_cny_humanists_billboard_says_youre_not_alone.html
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Dont-Believe-in-God-Youre-Not-Alone.html
And so on.
d_r
(6,907 posts)I often fantasize about renting billboards after those "my heart was beating in 16 days" signs saying something like "use your brains, morans, that doesn't make any sense." I get the desire to be snarky, I'm just saying.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Well, considering that 85% of humans are theists, perhaps winning is not the correct word.