Why I find Christianity so hard to stomach.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

It constantly sounds like a scam to me.

When things go wrong, Christians say it’s not God’s doing, and when things go well, they say it is God’s doing.

When things go wrong, people are told to pray. When God doesn’t answer those prayers, they’re told things turned out the way they were supposed to (and sometimes that they didn't pray hard enough).

People are told that God is there with them all the time, that God never abandons them, and that God walks with them every step of the way. I beg to differ. God never appears. And if God is with us all the time, well, God must not be a very swell guy, since some pretty horrific things are happening all the time.

[TrogL]

1. Congratulations. That's the first question in the Inquisition

[hrmjustin]

2. As a christian I have to tell you most christians do not know their faith well.

God does not decide who lives, gets sick, gets rich, or who dies. God has left that to the laws of nature and us. We pray to God for strength to get through this life and the grace to get to the next.

[Angry Dragon]

4. So what is the point of religion then??

Prayers are not answered??

The Old Testament is made up?? Because in that section god was a very involved being

[hrmjustin]

5. I am not saying prayers are not answered or it is all made up.

The bible is a bunch of stories that explain the divine. Some are allegorical, and some of it happened as it says. The bible throughout history was never read literally by the church. It was not till these evangelicals started in on this crap they do that it took hold in churches. God is within you and the people you meet. As a christian I look for Christ in everyone I meet. It is not easy, but I try to do it.
The bible was written by men and women not God. Yes divinely inspired, but written by man with all his flaws and dreams. The bible is the word of God according to man. The bible is our link to the divine nothing more. As for prayers, pray for what you will but strength is the most important thing you can pray for.

[skepticscott]

21. So you're saying

That you get to cherry-pick which stories are allegorical, invented or embellished and which actually happened as written, depending on the agenda you're trying to promote? Exactly as Christians have done all through history, including the evangelicals that you denigrate? And that you get to assume that the Bible is "divinely inspired" despite the fact that it looks EXACTLY the way it would look if it were entirely the work of humans, with no god involved at all? You'd think that a "god" worth the name could have inspired people a little better. Or that he could have arranged a link to him that wasn't quite so thick.

Okey-doke then.

[hrmjustin]

34. This is all based on faith and reason.

We know that there are two creation stories in the bible and that both could not happen literally and be true. We know that evolution is the best theory we have to date about life. So as a person of faith I personally do not believe in adam and eve or the garden of eden, but I believe the story starts the faith story on it's way and has many meanings to it. Different people get different things from the bible so that is up to the reader. If you choose not to believe that is your right. It is not logical I understand that, yet I have faith. It gets me through this life my friend so I use it.

[skepticscott]

42. If you have faith

Why do you need to bring reason into the picture at all? It's still cherry-picking (apparently out of a need that "liberal" Christians have to appear rational to the world) to say that you reject belief in the literal truth of certain Bible tales because the evidence is against them, but accept certain others with no more evidence because you have "faith".

And yes, I'm sure it gets you through your life. If more Christians could simply say openly "I know this doesn't make sense, but I need it anyway", it would probably be a better world.

[hrmjustin]

45. You know i like the way you think.

But i will stick to what works to me my friend

[daaron]

47. Y'know, I know this doesn't make sense, but -->

I find it endlessly fascinating. Need? Maybe too strong a word.

[Thats my opinion]

43. you are on targert about what is currently happening in progressive religion.

Your critics keep trying to beat a dead horse that in no way reflects what you hold. They and the fundamentalists have the same view of the bible. The fundies because they think it is all true. The critics because they think it is all false.

[hrmjustin]

46. Well my beliefs work for me, and remember...

...faith is not only based on words in the bible.

[edhopper]

27. "The bible throughout history was never read literally by the church."

That'll be news to Gallileo and Tyco Brahe.

[hrmjustin]

33. It would be more accurate to say bible scholars not the church itself...

...that did not read the bible literally. In the middle ages many bible scholars understood genesis to be a story and not the way it really happened. The church as an institution well that is a different story my friend.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

56. Maybe it was at times. I will say this, I was raised Catholic, and Catholic schools

teach evolution. Some years ago, when the evangelinuts began to dominate the religious landscape of the U.S., some Catholics began to like the incredibly infantilized, evangelical view of religion, and wanted Catholicism to adopt some of that. All of a sudden it seemed like all Catholic churches were adopting some of that. Heck, I even heard of a Catholic church where they speak in tongues like the evangelinuts do.

[cbayer]

37. Nicely said.

[hrmjustin]

41. Thanks my friend.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

55. That's true. The Bible was not read like a fairy tale until the evangelicals took control of

religion in the U.S.

[hrmjustin]

67. Many people don't realize that about bible scholarship is that...

...for centuries bible scholars did not take everything word for word. As I said the church may have put out a storyline that was compatible with adam and eve, however it was not till John Calvin that allegory was thrown out with the bath water.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

68. That's true. Not just that, but also the evangelicals employ heavy Cafeteria Bible...

They only take literally certain aspects of the Bible (for example Noah's Ark), and not others (Paul saying that women need to cover their hair or they'll be sluts).

I've even asked evangelicals about this particular example (among others). About this particular example, they say:

"Oh well, he was talking to the Corinthians, so he was just saying that to get them to behave." Such bullshit, really. They pick and choose what they want to believe literally. How can I respect evangelicals if they play Cafeteria Bible, choosing and picking what they want to see literally? It's pure scam. Pure crap.

I have zero respect for evangelicals.

[mindwalker_i]

6. I guess the point is that it all helps in the end

If one believes in God, says prayers, offers up the occasional goat or bull, they'll get into heaven when they kick the bucket. I kind of have a problem with it there because faith seems to be such an important piece. But why, if God is infinite, would he give a rat's ass as to whether someone "believes in him?" I can't imagine an infinite being having any opinion regarding who believes in him or not.

The real issue is that God was created in man's image so of course he's vain and cares about being worshiped. It leads to logical contradictions that have to be overcome with "faith" - belief regardless of evidence. That's a very useful thing for politicians to exploit - if people are accustomed to ignoring logic, all sorts of "arguments" can be used to persuade them in the direction that the politicians want them to go.

Works just as well for senators as kings.

[aquart]

7. Okay, please back away from the Old Testament.

Really, Christians should never be allowed within ten feet of it. It is a very complex document with multiple authors plus some very naughty Sumerian/Akkadian puns that you just don't want to mess with.

[laconicsax]

14. But without badly misinterpreting it, they wouldn't be able to claim Jesus as the messiah.

The interesting part is that if Jesus an allegorical character used to personify early Christian values rather than an actual founder of the sect, all of the contradictions, historical inaccuracies, and wacky bits of the New Testament cease to matter AND the Old Testament and its messianic prophecies wouldn't need to be included with the Christian scriptures.

[aquart]

30. There probably was an actual historical guy there.

We just don't know any real thing about him. The real sly error, for me, is putting paternity on the monkish Yahweh (easily understandable if you trace his name to the indoeuropean Yewo meaning Law and perceive him as a Maat-type character) when there was a randy begetter named Zeus/Jupiter right in the neighborhood.

[daaron]

48. Pretty hard to say what's what.

Once one takes advantage of all the time that's passed and surveys the whole scope of Christian history. There are a great number of extra-biblical early Christian texts that offer very different cosmologies, theologies, liturgies, the works. Why do modern Christians continue to give undue weight to the Councils of Nicea and that era's choice of orthodox canon, when there is so much more to explore for the open-minded scholar to read and ponder!

A thorough reading of the "Lost Books of the Bible" ought to disabuse a reasonable Christian of their gullibility for biblical miracles, and open up new ways of understanding not just Christ, but many of the fundamental elements of the faith. There was no agreement on who Jesus was, or what was true. Surely we have grown since the time of Constantine. As just one example, consider how the Dead Sea Scrolls have changed our understanding of both baptism and the Last Supper - they turn out to have firm albeit marginal roots in mainline Judaism dating back at least to the Maccabean revolt.

[Thats my opinion]

8. In that reading of religion, not much. nt

[cbayer]

36. Do you think the only value of religion would be getting god to do what you want?

[Angry Dragon]

60. I am not sure where that question came from

God seems to be a central part of most religions
Tha Christian god promotes love and obeying as a central theme
If I do not like the kind of love that any god offers I am free to reject same
I am free to question any god

[Sarah Ibarruri]

54. That's one heck of a mean god, seemingly helping not at all, seemingly

enjoying the suffering of mortals, seemingly wanting to be worshiped for absolutely no reason at all.

[Omniscientone]

63. This guy

is pretty smart. I agree with pretty much what he says.

[earcandle]

3. Great way to interpret the core yuk that is dupe city all the way. The faithful believe in the dupe

And they will never let on to anyone, and stumble themselves when questioned, and then go back to the same orbital poor excuse for reasoning. I am so sick of it. I can't understand intelligent people doing anything but socializing in this cold place. Probably trying to stir up some heat. Life happens on earth. Take responsibility already for what is happening here. We don't need no scapegoats. Like, be real.

So thanks for that post. It stirred me up.

[Warpy]

9. Nothing sounds more like a transparent scam

than somebody else's religion. How can they possibly believe any of that stuff? That's not what we were brought up to think, and it's not what all the sensible people we know think. They must be stupid or crazy or something.

Once you realize this to the point that you realize the belief system you were raised in that seems so logical to you is outlandish to people raised in different traditions, you start becoming capable of true tolerance.

That's what we need to aim for, not convincing people what what they think is wrong, no matter how bizarre it seems to us, as long as they're not using it as an excuse to bully or otherwise harm other people.

As long as they're not using it as a weapon, it's none of my business what gets other people through a dark and lonely night.

[cbayer]

38. Great post, warpy.

That is why I defend religion in general, but no specific religion or religious beliefs.

It is the lack of tolerance that causes the most strife, both on a small and large scale.

[Speck Tater]

10. If the tornado misses my house

but wipes out my neighbors then "God saved my house". So why didn't he save all the neighbors' houses?

Catastrophe can strike anyone at any time. Humans hate uncertainty, so rather than being afraid all the time we invent a magic protector in the sky so that we can get to sleep at night. The only other choice (the Buddhist way) is to embrace uncertainty and impermanence, admit there's not a damn thing we can do about it, and learn to live with it.

[aka-chmeee]

20. I especially love the survivor of an accident or disaster

who gushes to a reporter that "I know now that god must have other plans for me!!!" Just Great! Your god of Love just offed 168 innocents to give your self esteem a boost! The irony goes unnoticed among the followers.

[aquart]

31. Which is another way of attempting to gain control.

Since all you ever have a hope of controlling are your reactions.

[mia]

11. Life goes on or it doesn't. How we adapt is key.

I believe in God and I celebrate the moment I'm living now.

[cordelia]

22. +1

[edhopper]

28. I don't believe in God

and I celebrate the moment I am living. I was not given this life by any power, it is mine to make of it what i choose.

[cbayer]

39. Well, that's great. You and she share something in common!

Let's celebrate.

[RegieRocker]

12. First of all GOD is not a Christian thing exclusively.

That says something about you and your knowledge of religion to make a statement like that.
Man does not know what GOD is, does or will do. It would be like a minnow understanding what we are, what we do and what we will do. It isn't possible. We are still animals and that is clear every day. Try helping mankind remove itself from the perilous situation we are in instead of promoting it. Freedom of and from religion is important. Either side ridiculing the other is inappropriate and immature. I am an agnostic and no, that isn't an atheist. They are not even close to the same thing. I believe both equally. There could be and couldn't be a GOD. Neither the religionists (notice how I did not state "Christians", you might try and wrap your brain around that) nor the atheists have proven their side for me to choose one. They never will, it's impossible. Is it their responsibility to do so? No. I will make up my mind on my own. It is important for you to understand that one can't rationalize something that is incomprehensible. Hence the atheist regression into childhood with the labeling "spaghetti monster". At least a greater percentage of religionists are more mature than atheists.

[uriel1972]

13. Could you be any more snide if you tried?

I'm an atheist because I see no evidence of gods or other supernatural beings. The god is unknowable argument gets harder and harder to play with each new discovery of the universe which whittles away hiding places for supernature.

It IS up to the religionists to supply evidence for THEIR claims of the supernatural, why should we just believe without evidence? You seem to be okay with people running around judging other peoples lives without any sort of evidence to back up their claim to judgement.

'Regression', way to miss the point. Parody was the point of the Spaghetti Monster. Can't we have a little laugh now and then?

You seem hung up on the fact that only christianity was mentioned in the OP not all religions. The OP was under no obligation to speak about all religions and did not. That is no reason to believe that the OP only thinks of christianity when they think of religion.

I allow the possibility I am wrong on the gods issue because I believe in the scientific method and the inherent fallibility of human endevour. However that same beleif in the scientific method also means I must resist beleiving things without evidence.

Then again, what would I know? I'm just an immature athiest.

[JNelson6563]

17. +1

[RegieRocker]

65. Blah blah blah nothing here move on

[CJCRANE]

18. I agree.

The faults the poster ascribes to Christianity are shared by many theistic religions.

And most of them can't explain the concept of God in its entirety so they fall back on variations of "the Lord works in mysterious ways".

[mr blur]

25. " a greater percentage of religionists are more mature than atheists."?

And your evidence for this is..?

Dream on.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

29. ...

Your post is so full of logic holes that I'm not going to even address it. The fact that you wrote, and apparently believe, what you wrote suggests to me that you aren't going to get it.

[eqfan592]

40. +1 nt

[laconicsax]

61. Careful...I had a post hidden for using that cartoon. n/t

[RegieRocker]

64. No it is you who doesn't get it that is obvious.

Logic escapes you. However the illogical thought pattern you obviously have that you're superior to those that believe in GOD is the true irony here. Quite laughable really.

[daaron]

15. That's why I ended up going extra-biblical.

The Bible is merely a selection of extant Christian texts, and while the post-Nicean purge was thorough, chance has let slip plenty of raw material for the modern researcher to use to form our own belief systems independent of organized religion. There's really no reason for any modern Christian go to any church, except pure fellowship. And there is certainly no reason for any Christian to limit themselves to the Bible, unless one agrees with the Council at Nice. Furthermore, if one is comfortable with an interpretive approach to belief, there is no reason to deify Jesus, or accept more than a deistic "God the Father".

[JNelson6563]

16. I remember

when I was little girl and told god and guardian angels were always with you, I often wondered why they didn't help stop the violence in my house that my brother and I were subjected to.

Julie

[skepticscott]

23. Christians would cluck

and shake their heads sympathetically, and mumble something about how the abuse of children is all "part of God's plan".

Despicable.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

59. Yup. I understand that. I don't get why Christianity claims God is good.

What's good about God?

[2on2u]

19. Talk about human meddling in things religious

It sure seemed to need a lot of tweaking back in the day.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

The First Council of Nicaea (naɪsi:ə; Greek: ?ί???? was a council of Christian bishops convened in Nicaea in Bithynia (present-day İznik in Turkey) by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in AD 325. This first ecumenical council was the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom.[5][6]

Its main accomplishments were settlement of the Christological issue of the nature of Jesus and his relationship to God the Father,[3] the construction of the first part of the Creed of Nicaea, settling the calculation of the date of Easter,[2] and promulgation of early canon law.[4][7][8]

[rug]

24. All gods are better than their reputation.

[aquart]

32. Cultured, not feeling particularly well, dreamer, TEMPER, quick thinker, deep thinker,

Can keep a secret, and, although perfectly charming, disconnected and remote from other people.

And he's not getting laid.

Love a nice handwriting sample.

[alterfurz]

26. non-practicing pantheist here...

Many levels of consciousness, many gods. Each blind man holding onto a different part of the elephant. Oh sure, on good days I might still muster up a little dishwater agnosticism, but atheism remains far too problematic--as Woody put it, there's no way you can prove God doesn't exist: you just have to take it on faith.

As for praying to any diety: The gods hear and answer all prayers. The answer to the common petition to suspend just this once the Law of Cause and Consequence is customarily no. (Trust in Allah, but always tie your camel. Pray to Neptune, but row away from the rocks.) Sometimes when the gods want to punish us, they give us what we ask for, and to reward us, they don't. General guideline: If you don't pray when the sun shines, don't pray when it rains. Corollary: "If the only prayer you say in your life is thank you, that would suffice." -- Meister Eckhart (c. 1260-c. 1328). Personally, I'm counting on that.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

52. Hmm... thanks. nt

[cbayer]

35. What church(es) have you attended that told you these things?

Have you ever been to a church that told you something different, or are you basing your take on christianity on places/people that just say these things?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

50. Well, only on Christianity because it is the right wing's best pal, and the #1 reason

the right wing has sunk this country.

[Prophet 451]

44. Everyone's religion looks batshit from outside

My own faith believes God is a sadistic sociopath who toys with us for his own amusement and worships Lucifer as the justified rebel against a tyrannical god. Yes, I really do believe that. I really do pray daily to the being most consider the devil.

See what I mean? I'm sure that, from your point of view, that looks insane.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

49. Are you serious? nt

[Prophet 451]

53. About my faith? Entirely

Like I said, I'm sure it seems batshit to you but yes, I genuinely believe everything I mentioned above.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

57. Yes, I am pretty amazed nt

[Prophet 451]

58. Hence, my point

It's ok, I'm used to it.

[cleanhippie]

69. I agree, they all apear that way to me.

However, on the plausibility scale, I give your beliefs higher marks than most.

[Odin2005]

62. ALL religions are like that, not just Christianity.

[AlbertCat]

66. None of these things are unique to Christianity

In fact, I don't think Christianity has a single original idea.