Is faith a noun or a verb?

[guillaumeb]

Most people might say that faith is a thing, and thus a noun. And they would be correct. But consider this:

The problem we have in translating the Bible is that sometimes there is no single word in English that can represent the Greek word. That's the situation here. When you see words like belief, believed, and faith in the NT, they are really the same word in the Greek although they may have slightly different meanings due to context. That word is "pistis" as a noun and "pisteuo" as a verb. When the noun form is used it is translated as faith or belief. When the verb form is used it is translated as believed, or as "by faith."

http://pheugo.com/faithmatters/index.php?page=FaithMatters.Faithisaverb&WEBMGR=846fafeb0c3a6445eab46c9ebd0e4182

So if we look at the 2 forms, it leads us to believe that faith must be accompanied by an action reflecting that faith.

In addition, from the same source:

Most importantly, faith is an activity. In our modern way of thinking we separate mind and body, subjective and objective. We say that the objective things are provable and subjective things are not and then further claim that only what is objectively provable is "real" and "true." People today put faith in the category of something subjective and thus perceive it as believing without proof. That's a modern idea that shouldn't really be read back into the NT. In many cases, when Jesus healed someone, he would say, "Your faith has made you whole." Their faith was not simply sitting around passively believing that Jesus could heal them. It was a belief so strong that they went and sought out Jesus. That faith-action resulted in the proof or validity of what they believed. Thus, faith in the NT sense is an action based upon a belief. The belief is so secure that the person is willing to act, even to the point of risking death, because of the confidence in what they believe.

So we can see that faith impels one to action that is presumably, hopefully, reflective of that faith. And given that many faiths contain admonitions on behavior, that behavior should also be reflective of the faith.

Thoughts?

[BigmanPigman]

1. It can be both. Many words are.

Last edited Sat Apr 14, 2018, 09:21 PM - Edit history (1)

Like the word "play".

[guillaumeb]

5. Nicely done.

I like plays. On words and involving words.

[yallerdawg]

2. You slipped in an M&M...

before M&M did!

[sprinkleeninow]

3. Action based faith.

'Your believing/action-based faith has made you whole.' Oui?

😘

[guillaumeb]

6. Well, it makes me an imperfect Christian.

Sometimes I succeed in both belief and action.

[sprinkleeninow]

11. As I also confess.

I believe in 'theory', but at times, where is my 'practice'.

I talk, but the walk is AWOL.

Mon ami,
Je t'adore mucho grande! 🤗

[Mariana]

4. Have you faithed this week? Will you faith tomorrow? Are you faithing now? nt.

[guillaumeb]

7. By my faith, you have many questions!!

My grandfather used that one many times, in French, along with the word calisse.

[Major Nikon]

8. Man, you sure faithed that one up

[Mariana]

9. ...

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

10. Its still a noun

Just because it leads to an action doesn’t make it a verb. A book isn’t anything much unless it’s read, music is played or heard, both are still nouns.

[Brainstormy]

55. of course it is. n/t

[No Vested Interest]

12. Jimmy Carter has a new book coming out, entitled "Faith: A Journey for All".

There is speculation that it may be his last book.
It may be worth a look.

[Voltaire2]

13. Basically you dont understand elementary school

Level grammar.

[Major Nikon]

14. Faith you, you faithing faither!

[Mariana]

21. ...

[guillaumeb]

18. Did you actually read the post?

If so, I believe that the point is clear.

[Mariana]

23. The only point I see

is that in addition to assigning your own unique personal definitions to English words, now you're assigning new parts of speech to them as well.

Do you do this with French words, too?

[guillaumeb]

27. My question was related to you reading the post.

By your non-answer, I will assume that you did not read the post, but instead responded to the title. And that, in my view, explains your apparent confusion.
So, here is the first part:

The problem we have in translating the Bible is that sometimes there is no single word in English that can represent the Greek word. That's the situation here. When you see words like belief, believed, and faith in the NT, they are really the same word in the Greek although they may have slightly different meanings due to context. That word is "pistis" as a noun and "pisteuo" as a verb. When the noun form is used it is translated as faith or belief. When the verb form is used it is translated as believed, or as "by faith."

So, faith must be reflected in action.

Alternatively, faith inspires action.

[Voltaire2]

33. you clearly do not understand what a verb is.

Did you sleep through your grammar lessons?

[guillaumeb]

37. Do you understand the point?

If so, explain it in your own words.

[MineralMan]

15. Use it as a verb in a sentence.

Show us that it can be a verb. Simple.

[Major Nikon]

16. Stop or I'll faith!

Please faith my facebook post

Let's go faith a joint

I'm going to faith you six ways to Sunday!

[guillaumeb]

19. Read the post and see the point.

Or, choose to not read the post.

[Voltaire2]

32. like an actual point, yours is infinitely small.

[MineralMan]

44. I read the post.

Faith is still not a verb in the English language. We don't use ancient Greek. Faith is a noun. You cannot use it as a verb in English.

Jimmy Carter did not use it as a verb. He wrote metaphorically on our it, but he's an educated man, so he did not try to actually use it as a verb.

Your argument doesn't make it a verb, either. One can have faith, but have is the verb, and the noun, faith, is the object. That's because it is, and will remain, a noun.

[guillaumeb]

46. You read the words.

And missed the point.

[MineralMan]

47. You made no point

regarding the question you posed. Faith is a noun. You have not used it as a verb, even once, because you cannot. The answer to your question is, and will remain, that faith is a noun. Any discussion beyond that is specious.

[guillaumeb]

48. My point remains, and is still valid.

I made a number of observations here that revealed the point.

[Major Nikon]

109. Youve really only succeeded in faithing yourself into a corner

In your defense etymology has revealed many English verbs originated as nouns, so maybe in a few hundred years the movement you started will no longer be a subliterate endeavor.

[nil desperandum]

115. If you don't stop all that faithing you'll go blind....NT

[marylandblue]

17. Christians like the word faith, and use it more than any other religion

They like it so much that they violate the rules of good translation. Good translation uses the most appropriate word in idiomatic English to translate a given Greek word in context. So what they are really saying is that the rather stiff translation "by faith" in the New Testament should really be translated by the verbs "to believe" when applied to opinions or "to trust" when applied to relying on someone or something.

But mixing these all up using "faith" to translate the same Greek word creates a mashup in English that didn't exist in Greek because a Greek speaker would understand the same word in different contexts. Just like we have no problem telling the difference between running a race and running a country, even though other languages might use different words for each type of run.

[guillaumeb]

20. The concept contains within it both action and a state of being/doing.

If I have inner faith, presumably my outer actions will reflect that faith. Thus the outer is consistent with the inner. Similar to Jesus talking about the whited sepulchers, wherein the outer does not reflect the inner.

And as your reference to "run" shows, context is critical to full understanding.

It is not sufficient to have faith, it is necessary that that faith be reflected in our actions. So we cannot truly separate the concept from its realization.

James 2:14-26

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

[Mariana]

22. Everywhere the word faith appears in your post, it is a noun. nt.

[guillaumeb]

25. To help with your apparent confusion:

The problem we have in translating the Bible is that sometimes there is no single word in English that can represent the Greek word. That's the situation here. When you see words like belief, believed, and faith in the NT, they are really the same word in the Greek although they may have slightly different meanings due to context. That word is "pistis" as a noun and "pisteuo" as a verb. When the noun form is used it is translated as faith or belief. When the verb form is used it is translated as believed, or as "by faith."

[Voltaire2]

31. so go right ahead and use the word "faith" as a verb in a sentence.

It shouldn't be difficult.

[guillaumeb]

35. The post explains my position.

And I have simplified in some of the responses. So where exactly is your confusion?

[Voltaire2]

36. so go right ahead and use the word "faith" as a verb in a sentence.

[guillaumeb]

38. I can only conclude that you are confused,

or you would not have posed the question.

My suggestion is to go back and reread the responses here.

[Voltaire2]

39. You appear to think that if the noun "a" can be translated as "b" and "b"

has the property that it can be used as both a noun and a verb then "a" can also be used as both a noun and a verb.

Language doesn't work that way.

Please demonstrate the verb form of "faith" in a sentence.

[guillaumeb]

40. You appear to be still confused.

And from the speed of your response, I will conclude that you did not reread the responses here.

[Voltaire2]

80. Just one sentence would demonstrate the verb

form of the word “faith”, and yet you cannot provide it.

[Lordquinton]

106. With so much opinion and point making

you think that such an easy question would be easily answered. But the 11th commandment, questioning theists and all.

[MineralMan]

117. And we can easily conclude that you are unable to

provide an example of its use as a verb.

[guillaumeb]

119. I think you also are confused as to the intent of the post.

[marylandblue]

24. That just creates a further mashup

Because it creates yet another, now theological definition of faith that has no word in either Greek or English. If there were such a word, it would mean something like "belief leading to action."

[guillaumeb]

26. Yes, it would.

But I would argue that belief unrelated to action is merely a debating point.

[marylandblue]

28. Debate is a verb too.

[guillaumeb]

29. Reason is also both.

Showing that position is related to action.

[marylandblue]

30. But it still a theological point dressed up as grammar

If a Christian wants to beleive that his religion requires him to do certain things, that is his choice. But it is a theological identity not a grammatical one.

[guillaumeb]

34. And it only applies to religion?

So a philosophy of non-violence will not translate into non-violent action?

If you say that you are a Democrat, will your voting reflect that choice?

We all believe certain things, and in theory, those beliefs should translate into actions that are in accord with those professed beliefs.

[marylandblue]

49. It's a theological point because the described type of faith

Is that a strong faith will lead to action and the action is proof of faith. But outside religion it may or may not be so. My voting democratic doesn't mean I am a democrat. I may be an anti-Trump republican. Alternatively, my being a strong democrat doesn't mean I won't vote for a republican sometimes.

[guillaumeb]

50. But presumably you will vote for those people

because their political beliefs and policies align with your own. So you are generally acting in a manner consistent with your beliefs.

[marylandblue]

53. Presumably, but perhaps not

People are complicated and they vote the way they do for a lot of different reasons. They also don't vote for a lot of reasons. If am too lazy to vote at all, does this mean I "believe" laziness is a good choice or that I don't believe in certain policies? Probably not. More likely I an just lazy, or have other things to do, or am not motivated enough etc. It's a long list. But belief doesn't always imply action.

Studies also show our brains work the other way around. If you force someone to take an action, they are more likely to believe it is good.

Which is why we make our children brush their teeth even if they don't believe in it. Eventually they do believe it, not because we taught them enough dentistry, but because we made them do it enough times.

[guillaumeb]

62. Belief neither implies nor compels action.

[marylandblue]

68. Correct, but that's part of my argument nt

[guillaumeb]

70. Jesus talks of action as a necessary accompaniment to faith.

Can I call myself a Democrat if I never vote? Perhaps, in a philosophical sense, but most people would say that I was either apathetic or unengaged.

[marylandblue]

76. Sure but that doesn't make faith a verb

It makes it a mistranslation of a Greek word, that should be translated as either belief or trust, accompanied by a judgment that there is something wrong with having a belief without action.

[guillaumeb]

84. The Greek word contains both belief and action in it.

[marylandblue]

89. No, that's the way the author interpreted the word

The interpretation is confused with the translation, resulting in linguistic fallacies. The examples provided by the author do not indicate that pistis in Greek contains action in the contexts provided.

[guillaumeb]

90. Dueling experts in the Greek language?

[marylandblue]

93. I know a little bit of Greek

I know a little more about linguistics and Bible translation. He makes errors many Bible translators make. On such error is that if a word appears in two different places in the Bible with two different meanings, the two different meanings must have something in common. That sometimes is true but often not. In the real world, context always rules over any intrinsic meaning the word may have. So if "pistis" in context means "belief" then it means that and not action. Also he points out that pistis in Greek has a verb form "pisteuo." But we have no verb form of faith in English, we would have to say "believe" or "trust" again, depending on context to figure out which one.

Also he makes the mistake of translating prepositions literally. This is almost impossible because every language uses prepositions arbitrarily and idiosyncratically. You just can't draw much meaning from the way prepositions are used.

[guillaumeb]

94. Jesus said that faith requires action. eom

[marylandblue]

96. I am not disputing your theology, I am disputing your linguistics

[Voltaire2]

100. Meat requires cooking.

That does not make meat a verb.
Seriously did you sleep through sentence diagramming?

[guillaumeb]

101. Steak tartare.

Did you sleep through cooking?

[Act_of_Reparation]

105. And faith is still a noun.

Are you finished?

[yallerdawg]

41. Some people want to insist 'faith' is just some kind of passive flacid thing.

Merely a 'name' of some...thing.

When one believes, there should be no passivity.

Belief requires action, the action that comes from faith, and in turn that faith leads to greater belief and more action!

[guillaumeb]

42. Agreed. And some, in my view, missed the point of the title.

And the subsequent clarifications.

The Greek root contains both idea and action in it. And that, as you stated, is the point.

[yallerdawg]

43. But-but-but....

the literalists insist the dictionary only identifies the word 'faith' as a noun.

Once you have a dogma, you gots to stick to it!

[guillaumeb]

45. Ah yes, "the literalists".

Amazing how many there are here.

[marylandblue]

56. Because if you start making up your own grammar in service of theology

You aren't being non-literal you are being ungrammatical and obscure.

Say what you mean. You mean that belief in Jesus leads you to do the right thing. That's a lot more clear than engaging in linguistic fallacies in order to sound erudite.

[Brainstormy]

57. thank you. Faith is NOT a verb. n/t

[guillaumeb]

63. A false accusation.

Followed by an insult.

[marylandblue]

66. It is none of those things

You do not believe that if you believe in Jesus, you will not be led to do the right thing?

[guillaumeb]

69. It was both of those things.

And your sentence in the body of the response makes no sense. Either delete one of the "nots" or rephrase.

[marylandblue]

71. Do you believe that

faith in Jesus leads you to do the right thing?

[guillaumeb]

72. I believe that if I follow the message of Jesus

that I am doing the correct thing. When I fail to do so, I am not following what I profess to believe.

[marylandblue]

83. So faith is not action

Following the message of Jesus is an an action. Doing what you believe is an action. Believing something is not an action and it does not mean you will act in accordance with your belief.

[guillaumeb]

88. Acting as I profess to believe is indeed an action.

Failing to do so, and acting in that way, is another sort of action.

I can talk about the need for change, and that can be a good thing, but if all that I do is talk, what did I accomplish?

Jesus said that faith without actions is not enough.

[marylandblue]

91. So you agree that faith is not an action

Since there is such a thing a faith without action.

[guillaumeb]

92. Faith is completed with action.

According to Jesus, action is necessary for faith to be complete. The point of the post and the 2 citations.

[marylandblue]

95. Fine, but that's theology, it's not inherent to the words themselves

What you just said is more clear than the original article, but it has nothing to do with the meaning of the Greek. It's just what James 2:14-26 says, which is perfectly plain in English.

[guillaumeb]

97. True, it is theology.

In this case, Christian theology. The word theology is also perfectly clear.

[marylandblue]

98. Ok, you are entitled to your theology and the free exercise of your beliefs

[guillaumeb]

99. And in that spirit, you are also entitled to yours.

I could do no less.

[marylandblue]

51. This is called the root word fallacy

And it fails because the word in Greek means different things in context, not that it inherently includes both ideas in every case. I alluded to it earlier with my example of the word "run." There is nothing inherent in the "run" that makes it appropriate for use in two very different contexts.

[sprinkleeninow]

58. Please forgive me for bringing attention to the use of the word 'flaccid'.

Ya know who came to mind seeing that. 😇

'Part of the body, soft and hanging loosely or limply, especially so as to look or feel unpleasant.'

His being in entirety, esp. what grey matter is present.

I'm sorry. Wot's happenink to me.
Used to be a nice girl.

[marylandblue]

60. Just another example of he has coarsened our public discourse.

[sprinkleeninow]

73. This is so very true. I find myself feeling some compunction for my jibes lately.

I'm getting a 'pass' so to speak, perhaps in my carnal mind, but then it dawns on me, this is not pleasing all the way around.

I find 'he' is deserving of righteous indignation, but then some of my words and thoughts I'm reminded of and they trouble my spirit.

A ton of us want it over with.

[marylandblue]

77. Me too

I got angry at my Trump-voting father-in-law because I can't find anything Trump did right and neither can he. But he still complains about Hillary.

I din't like getting angry at him, but I wish he could see what is really bappening.

[sprinkleeninow]

79. I am trying very hard to not let my animosity/detest spill over

into/onto any relationships with acquaintances, neighbors and like that. (Someone in church. I know their political leaning and they aren't aware I know.) I feel during conversation like my head will blow and I'll say something not retractable.

There's an 'invisible' force keeping my lips sealed.

'He' will answer someday, somewhere, somehow for the damage he has wrought, this worker of iniquity.

[yallerdawg]

74. My idea of defense of faith is not so much a milquetoast version...

more the version we saw Gene Hackman play in "The Poseidon Adventure."


"...sitting on our butts is not going to help us either. Maybe by climbing out of here, we can save ourselves. If you've got any sense, you'll come along with us."

[Lint Head]

52. It's referred to as both a nerb and a voun.

[guillaumeb]

64. Shhh!!!

[Binkie The Clown]

54. To faith, or not to faith? Makes no sense. In English "faith" is a noun only. or...

...possibly in some circumstances, an adjective as in: "the faith community".

If it were a verb it would have to be intransitive, transitive, or ditransitive. It doesn't seem to work in any of those cases:

Intransitive: I faithed all day yesterday. -- Nope!
Transitive: I was faithing Fred all day. -- Nope!
Ditransitive: Billy faiths John this book he just found. -- Nope!

I challenge you to find one proper, grammatical, syntactically correct English sentence that has "faith" as a verb.

And if that were not enough, my spell check fails on all conjugations of the *verb "faith".

*he faiths - fail.
*I faithed - fail.
*we were faithing - fail.

[guillaumeb]

65. My point, and the point of the 2 references,

is that faith without action is incomplete. And the reference to the Greek root amplifies that point.

[Binkie The Clown]

78. Communication is possible because words have agreed upon meanings. E.g. "verb" and "noun".

If you want to make up your own language, feel free to do so, but by doing so you will no longer be able to communicate meaningfully with others.

[Voltaire2]

81. No longer be able to communicate meaningfully

Is giving way too much credit.

[guillaumeb]

85. Many words are both noun and verb.

And my post talks about faith being complete with action.

[MineralMan]

86. Faith is not one of those words.

If it were, you could write a sentence for us that used faith as a verb. You cannot, because it is not.

[PJMcK]

59. Who cares?

By definition, "faith" is a noun.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

By function, "faith" is a delusion because it articulates belief in something that is empirically unproven.

That doesn't make it bad, it simply says that I need not subscribe to what you believe.

Facts and logic, baby, will stand up every time.

[sprinkleeninow]

61. Any wishing to view this, thanks. Anyone not interested, thanks.

I'm of the Orthodox Faith, but not Greek heritage. Although we communicated in a Greek Orthodox community for 15 years. I am quite fond of the Greek language, hymnology and all of their Hellenic culture.

The first is a trailer, the second full version.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[link:

|

[link:

|

[guillaumeb]

67. Jesus talks of action as a anecessary accompaniment to faith.

Action makes faith complete.

[sprinkleeninow]

75. Word.

💚 you, Guillaume.

[Major Nikon]

112. Some use that very principal for things like murdering abortion doctors

...starting wars of aggression, terrorism, acts of discrimination, god-bothering, and the list goes on and on. Naturally they aren’t true “Christians”.

[MineralMan]

116. Action, like faith, is a noun as well.

It has "to act" as its root, but is a noun all the same. You believe that faith, the noun, requires action, also a noun. Requires is the verb in that sentence.

It's obvious why you have not supplied a sentence using "faith" as a verb, despite many requests.

I direct you to the title of your original post. That question has been answered definitively.

You're wasting your time with this entire line of discussion. Faith will remain a noun, as will "action" and "activity."

[thewhollytoast]

82. The real question is...

....are you a noun or a verb, perhaps a bot?

Are you a wave or a particle, or both? Or, like god's do, do you never listen to reason. Oh, and by the way the christian god's first name is Howard. Silly you I thought you'd get that.

Toast

[guillaumeb]

87. Welcome to DU, and the conversation. The answers to your questions are:

Yes, and all of the above.

[elocs]

102. When you start examining Biblical scriptures in the original languages

you often run into problems with the English translation. And your average Christian has enough trouble studying the Bible in English and usually take on faith what they hear over the pulpit.

[guillaumeb]

103. Most of us do not read Greek, or Aramaic, or Latin.

Even the US Constitution, written in relatively modern English, is the subject of intense debate.

[elocs]

104. Any Christian who is really interested can make an effort to study the Bible

in its original languages and you don't need to read Greek or Aramaic or Latin.
But I don't think that most Christians are interested in studying the Bible for themselves but are satisfied with being told by someone else what each scripture means.

[Major Nikon]

113. You dont have to be a Christian

Arguably the best biblical scholars are atheists and those of other faiths. Many Christian theologists started out as Christians and ended up as atheists or unitarians after they discovered all the contradictions, errors, and political motivations of the doctrine. There’s a good reason why the RCC kept the bible under lock and key for centuries.

[trotsky]

107. We already know that you redefine words as you see fit.

Go faith yourself, gil.

[Major Nikon]

110. And the donkey he faithed in on

[Mariana]

111. You guys are faithing me up.

[Angry Dragon]

108. depends on the person

[guillaumeb]

118. I like that one.

[Bretton Garcia]

114. See transitive vs. Intransitive verbs too

Some verbs often seem to require an object. Other cases are ambiguous.

So you might say you ate an apple. But it's a little different to just say, you ate.

At some point, a word for a transitive act, can begin to seem sufficient in itself.

Probably something similar to this lead to some verbs becoming nouns.

Possibly belief was similar. Normally belief is ... belief in something particular. Like you believe in say, democracy.

But then suddenly, in Sr. Paul, it nearly becomes an end in itself: just believing, and often with seemingly, no immediate object.

Which is where Paul made his mistake. Because it matters which thing precisely you believe in. If you believe in the wonderfulness of lies, that is a belief. But not a good one.

Of course Paul ultimately supported a particular belief. But it is surprising how often he seems to temporarily forget that. To speak as if faith, belief, is good in itself. Almost as if it didn't matter what specific thing you believed in.

Which is part of Paul's obnoxious craziness.

It's a lot like the motivational speakers who tell you that the secret of success is having say, "Confidence." That sounds good at first. But what if you have total confidence that a good fairy will cure you of your disease. And so you don't go to a doctor.

So Confidence is not actually a good thing just in itself. It is often seen that way; or in other words, as a noun. But it's better thought of as a transitive verb.

By the way? "Faith" might be translated as "confidence," some suggest.

So careful; don't blindly follow a confidence man. Like St. Paul.