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marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
Mon May 7, 2018, 09:04 PM May 2018

What is a belief system?

The term gets used here a lot, but I honestly don't know what it means. I've never used it prior to participating in the Religion Group here at DU. Some hypotheses I have about what it might mean are:
- a specific belief
- a random belief
- a group of related beliefs
- a group of unrelated beliefs
- a world view
- an ethical view
- a religious faith

There are probably other possibilities. All of them seem to fit some contexts but not others. Sometimes it seems assumed that everybody has one. Other times it seems more like it's recommended we should have one, and if we don't bad things might happen. Can anyone enlighten me?

101 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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What is a belief system? (Original Post) marylandblue May 2018 OP
It is often used, especially in this forum, guillaumeb May 2018 #1
Can you define belief system without using the words belief or system in the definition marylandblue May 2018 #5
Here. Eko May 2018 #7
That's pretty good, but what if I don't have a religion, philosophy or moral code marylandblue May 2018 #9
Hopefully you have a moral code. Eko May 2018 #10
I don't have a code, I have moral intuitions marylandblue May 2018 #11
So you have Eko May 2018 #12
Yes, but they aren't codified, so aren't really beliefs marylandblue May 2018 #14
I dont see how that differs from a moral code at all. Eko May 2018 #16
I don't think it's wrong to kill or go to war marylandblue May 2018 #18
Well there is your moral code. Eko May 2018 #22
Like I said, that's an intuition, not a code. marylandblue May 2018 #25
Whatever you say. Eko May 2018 #30
Informal versus formal. guillaumeb May 2018 #71
I don't know, right now I think MM in #59 is right marylandblue May 2018 #73
But if you have beliefs, guillaumeb May 2018 #80
Yes, but the whole thing is such a broad conception so as to be worthless marylandblue May 2018 #84
It is not worthless because it governs your behavior. guillaumeb May 2018 #85
Worthless as a concept related to religion discussions, not worthless in general marylandblue May 2018 #88
I liked your analogy of using the same language. guillaumeb May 2018 #89
Here is another. Eko May 2018 #8
Thanks, interesting article marylandblue May 2018 #13
No, Eko May 2018 #15
I read the paper, why isn't science a belief system? marylandblue May 2018 #17
Sigh. Eko May 2018 #20
I don't see anywhere where it excludes it marylandblue May 2018 #24
Right off the bat it does, I even put it in bold. Eko May 2018 #26
That definition still doesn't exclude science marylandblue May 2018 #32
Uh, yes it does. Eko May 2018 #34
That is true among people who accept science marylandblue May 2018 #37
They dont interpret it differently, Eko May 2018 #39
We are defining science differently marylandblue May 2018 #41
Talking with you is going nowhere. Eko May 2018 #42
I didn't say their beliefs were just as valid marylandblue May 2018 #43
And that science is a belief. Eko May 2018 #45
Like I said, we are defining science differently marylandblue May 2018 #47
So, what is science? Eko May 2018 #50
I gave you my definition of science in #41 marylandblue May 2018 #54
And I didnt say you said they were just as valid. Eko May 2018 #46
I am not giving credence to anything marylandblue May 2018 #48
Wrong beliefs? Eko May 2018 #49
"Belief" and "opinion" are not always synonymous. marylandblue May 2018 #53
Science and religion are in two totally different realms of thought. Tobin S. May 2018 #56
But not really. trotsky May 2018 #60
Creation stories aren't meant to be taken literally. Tobin S. May 2018 #62
"Creation stories aren't meant to be taken literally." trotsky May 2018 #64
I can just report to you what happened. Tobin S. May 2018 #91
Actually, there is a way. trotsky May 2018 #94
Oh, they weren't? Act_of_Reparation May 2018 #66
Trotsky just said 42% of Americans are creationists Tobin S. May 2018 #92
I don't see that as particularly damaging to my argument. Act_of_Reparation May 2018 #93
I dont believe the earth is round. Eko May 2018 #68
See the definition of belief marylandblue May 2018 #72
Here is the oxford. Eko May 2018 #74
"something one accepts as true" marylandblue May 2018 #76
I think you missed the rest of that. Eko May 2018 #77
Cambridge. Eko May 2018 #75
I'm not sure why you are just multiplying dictionary definition marylandblue May 2018 #79
I must have posted the wrong one. Eko May 2018 #81
You know what are some other synonyms for belief are? Eko May 2018 #83
Neil deGrasse Tyson Eko May 2018 #78
And it is easily provable. Eko May 2018 #70
In the simplest sense it's a mental construct that defines the world around you. Major Nikon May 2018 #23
What is the difference between a mental construct that defines the world marylandblue May 2018 #27
One is a house, the other is a hammer Major Nikon May 2018 #31
That analogy doesn't explain anything marylandblue May 2018 #38
A belief system is also tool Major Nikon May 2018 #44
False metaphor Buzz cook May 2018 #52
Religion is totally a belief system. Eko May 2018 #28
Individual religions typically include a belief system Major Nikon May 2018 #33
definition. Eko May 2018 #36
Religion is far more encompassing Major Nikon May 2018 #40
It is a term used here repeatedly in equivocation Voltaire2 May 2018 #2
Much straw evident here. guillaumeb May 2018 #3
So are you now conceding that atheism isn't a belief system? Major Nikon May 2018 #29
Do you believe that its premise is true? guillaumeb May 2018 #69
I have a dodge, not an answer. So let's not pretend otherwise. Major Nikon May 2018 #86
Your title explains it all. guillaumeb May 2018 #87
And here I thought your dictionary skills had granted you literacy Major Nikon May 2018 #90
See that's the most important point. trotsky May 2018 #61
There are many different types of belief systems, Eko May 2018 #4
I dunno. Sounds science-ey. Iggo May 2018 #6
I believe in science dhol82 May 2018 #19
philosophy, ethics, speculation and Middle Earth marylandblue May 2018 #21
Science encompasses them all. Except for middle earth.... dhol82 May 2018 #35
Some philosophers would argue philosophy encompasses science rather than the other way around Major Nikon May 2018 #51
What is a belief? Buzz cook May 2018 #55
"Belief" in a religious context means something different Major Nikon May 2018 #58
Still belief, just not for a very good reason. Buzz cook May 2018 #63
One of those things has a foundation in evidence and reason Major Nikon May 2018 #65
It's confusing because apologists have made it a keystone in some of their worst argumentation. Act_of_Reparation May 2018 #57
It means whatever a person thinks it means at the time. MineralMan May 2018 #59
That's probably the most accurate definition here. marylandblue May 2018 #67
My apologies. guillaumeb May 2018 #82
Thanks, but I don't like how this discussion went marylandblue May 2018 #95
How would you do so? guillaumeb May 2018 #96
I thought I'd get a better idea of what makes something a true belief system marylandblue May 2018 #97
And if we ask 100 people why they call themselves a Democrat, guillaumeb May 2018 #98
Actually that question was asked a few months ago in General Discussion marylandblue May 2018 #99
If it allows you to make sense of the world, call it what you wish. guillaumeb May 2018 #100
My assertion isn't just about a name marylandblue May 2018 #101

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
1. It is often used, especially in this forum,
Mon May 7, 2018, 09:23 PM
May 2018

to refer to a formalized belief system. But I would think that all of us have a belief system of sorts. If you are a Democratic voter, you might share a certain set of beliefs with other Democratic voters.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
5. Can you define belief system without using the words belief or system in the definition
Mon May 7, 2018, 09:54 PM
May 2018

Definitions that use words that are in the term being defined tend to be circular.

Eko

(7,299 posts)
7. Here.
Mon May 7, 2018, 09:56 PM
May 2018

a set of principles or tenets which together form the basis of a religion, philosophy, or moral code.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
9. That's pretty good, but what if I don't have a religion, philosophy or moral code
Mon May 7, 2018, 09:59 PM
May 2018

What if I think primarily in pragmatic terms, rather than following a specific set of principles? Does that mean I don't have a belief system.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
11. I don't have a code, I have moral intuitions
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:08 PM
May 2018

For me, things are right or wrong based on intuitive understandings in context. Any codification comes after the intuitions as way of communicating them, but I don't think morality can be reduced to a code.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
14. Yes, but they aren't codified, so aren't really beliefs
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:12 PM
May 2018

They could form the basis of a belief system, but such a system would be incomplete and like many ethical codes, lead to moral contradictions.

Eko

(7,299 posts)
16. I dont see how that differs from a moral code at all.
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:21 PM
May 2018

People think its wrong to kill but go to war and kill.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
18. I don't think it's wrong to kill or go to war
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:24 PM
May 2018

I think it's wrong to murder, which is defined as illegal killing. What makes a killing legal or illegal depends on context and social rules but can't be fully codified.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
71. Informal versus formal.
Tue May 8, 2018, 07:42 PM
May 2018

But if you have beliefs, you have a personal belief system. Can you imagine anyone not having a belief system that governs responses to situations?

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
73. I don't know, right now I think MM in #59 is right
Tue May 8, 2018, 07:54 PM
May 2018

The concept of "belief systems" seems poorly defined and therefore not of much use. I am not even sure how much sure how much the concept of "beliefs" is useful. It seems to be a very flexible term with a lot of different meanings, therefore it generates more argument than enlightenment.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
80. But if you have beliefs,
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:18 PM
May 2018

you have a belief system. It may be personal and informal, but it is still a pattern of beliefs that influences how you react to situations.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
84. Yes, but the whole thing is such a broad conception so as to be worthless
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:31 PM
May 2018

Everything you think of can be called a belief, and any two beliefs put together can be called a belief system. So to say I have a belief system is simply to say I have a brain.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
85. It is not worthless because it governs your behavior.
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:59 PM
May 2018

It may be personal to you, but it is not worthless to you or to others because it is a part of your sentience.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
88. Worthless as a concept related to religion discussions, not worthless in general
Tue May 8, 2018, 09:13 PM
May 2018

Everything we talk about here is some sort of belief system according to one definition or another. But so what? It's like pointing out we are writing in English. It's true, and it's important to communicating that we write in the same language, but it is not itself a topic of much discussion. Why is it so important to point out that everything is a belief system? And if it is so important, why is there no agreed upon definition of it?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
89. I liked your analogy of using the same language.
Tue May 8, 2018, 09:19 PM
May 2018

But given how many different opinions and beliefs there are on many subjects, any definition is to a degree personal to the believer.

But consider the many denominations of Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism, and see them as reflective of a division of opinion.


I saw an article about atheism that stated that approximately 10% of atheists believe in a higher power. Belief is a complicated matter, and as evidenced by the strong discussion here, a contentious matter.

Eko

(7,299 posts)
8. Here is another.
Mon May 7, 2018, 09:57 PM
May 2018

"Belief systems are structures of norms that are interrelated and that
vary mainly in the degree in which they are systemic. What is systemic in the Belief
system is the interrelation between several beliefs. What features warrant calling this
stored body of concepts a belief system? Belief systems are the stories we tell ourselves
to define our personal sense of Reality. Every human being has a belief system that
they utilize, and it is through this mechanism that we individually, "make sense" of the
world around us. Perceived Reality is constructed by means of systems of signs, being
affected and being changed by means of Belief systems. A subject cannot understand a
sign without talking about to a system that is learned socially and that allows him to
make sense of perception. In the same way, the classification of signs in closed
typologies can be deceptive, since the status of the sign depends strongly on the form in
which the sign is used within the Belief system. A significant can nevertheless be iconic
in a belief context and, to be symbolic in another context. From these we can see that
people are capable of constructing all manner of individual beliefs by which they tell
stories about how the world works. As humans, we tend to use all these belief systems
to varying degrees to cope with events in our lives. Ultimately we need the world to
make sense at some level. Therefore, those areas where that "sense of reality" is most
challenged will tend to be the areas in which the most controversies exist."
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiA18yqgfXaAhVMh-AKHbG8CN0QFghTMAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpdfs.semanticscholar.org%2F1a00%2F10e05368c1fa4242473908ae7e9b2ed6538e.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2jQSzPKzkMriI4Bnz4nudt

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
13. Thanks, interesting article
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:10 PM
May 2018

This article would tend to render moot the supposition that science without a belief system is weak. It's moot because there is no such thing as science without a belief system. It is itself a belief system, or part of one. Would you agree?

Eko

(7,299 posts)
20. Sigh.
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:30 PM
May 2018

The elements (concepts, propositions, rules, etc.) of a belief system are not
consensual.
That is, the elements of one system might be quite different from
those of a second in the same content domain. And a third system different from
both. Individual differences of this kind do not generally characterize ordinary
knowledge systems, except insofar as one might want to represent differences in
capability or complexity

Belief systems are in part concerned with the existence or nonexistence of
certain conceptual entities. God, motherland, witches, and assassination
conspiracies are examples of such entities.
This feature of belief systems is
essentially a special case of the nonconsensuality feature.

9) Belief systems often include representations of alternative worlds, typically the
world as it is and the world as it should be. Revolutionary or Utopian belief
systems especially have this character. The world must be changed in order to
achieve an idealized state, and discussions of such change must elaborate how
present reality operates deficiently, and what political, economic, social (etc.)
factors must be manipulated in order to eliminate the deficiencies.

11) Belief systems are likely to include a substantial amount of episodic material
from either personal experience or (for cultural belief systems) from folklore or
(for political doctrines) from propaganda.

13) Beliefs can be held with varying degrees of certitude. The believer can be
passionately committed to a point of view, or at the other extreme could regard
a state of affairs as more probable than not. This dimension of variation is
absent from knowledge systems. One would not say that one knew a fact
strongly. There exist some examples of attempts to model variable credences or
"'confidence weights" of beliefs and how these change as a function of new
information. A distinction should be made between the certitude attaching to a
single belief and the strength of attachment to a large system of beliefs.

2. ELEMENTS OF BELIEF SYSTEMS
1) Values. Implicitly or explicitly, belief systems define what is good or valuable.
Ideal values tend to be abstract summaries of the behavioral attributes which
social system rewards, formulated after the fact.

2) Substantive beliefs (Sb). They are the more important and basic beliefs of a
belief system. Statements such as: all the power for the people, God exists,
Black is Beautiful, and so on, comprise the actual content of the belief systems
and may take almost any form. For the believers, substantive beliefs are the
focus of interest.

3) Orientation. The believer may assume the existence of a framework of
assumptions around his thought, it may not actually exist. The orientation he
shares with other believers may be illusory. For example, consider almost any
politic and sociologic belief system. Such system evolves highly detailed and
highly systematic doctrines long after they come into existence and that they
came into existence of rather specific substantive beliefs. Believers interact,
share specific consensuses, and give themselves a specific name: Marxism,
socialism, Nazism, etc. Then, professionals of this belief system work out an
orientation, logic, sets of criteria of validity, and so forth.

I could keep going, but did you see anywhere in there, which was very detailed and concise, that they include science?



marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
24. I don't see anywhere where it excludes it
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:37 PM
May 2018

And some of the features of belief systems appear to apply to science. For example science has an implicit value that knowledge is good. Substantive beliefs of science include that testing hypotheses experimentally leads to truth. Not that under this point, the article says the beliefs may take almost any form. Also see your answer in No. 4, where you said beliefs may be facts based on evidence, which appears to include science.

Eko

(7,299 posts)
26. Right off the bat it does, I even put it in bold.
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:40 PM
May 2018
The elements (concepts, propositions, rules, etc.) of a belief system are not
consensual. That is, the elements of one system might be quite different from
those of a second in the same content domain.


As for post 4, beliefs may use science, but that doesnt make science a belief any more that a man using a horse makes him a horse.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
32. That definition still doesn't exclude science
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:44 PM
May 2018

One person might believe in science. Another might believe the earth is 6,000 years old.

Eko

(7,299 posts)
34. Uh, yes it does.
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:46 PM
May 2018

The elements (concepts, propositions, rules, etc.) of a belief system are not
consensual.
Science is consensual, something is true because any scientist can do the same experiment and come to the same conclusion.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
37. That is true among people who accept science
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:54 PM
May 2018

But we know of many people who do not. Creationists, anti-vaxxers, climate deniers. They see the same facts everyone else does, but interpret it differently. So it's a part of a belief system if you want to accept science or not.

Eko

(7,299 posts)
39. They dont interpret it differently,
Mon May 7, 2018, 11:01 PM
May 2018

They don't even accept the evidence that they can get for themselves. That's like saying gravity is a belief even though you throw your freaking apple and every single time it falls to the earth. What? do you think the scientists that designed your computer or phone that you are using to post here just believed it would work? That they just believed the internet would work? That it was their opinion and not based on facts? How about the ones that designed your car, they just believed it would start, move and stop you from 60+mph? Of course not, they know it will because it is testable, repeatable. They know why it works, and they apply the very same knowledge to many other applications. You know what the antonym to belief is? Its fact and truth.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
41. We are defining science differently
Mon May 7, 2018, 11:06 PM
May 2018

The things you are describing are "physical reality." "Science" is a method for explaining physical reality and the theories developed by that method. To use the method properly, you have to believe certain things, but your beliefs don't change the physical reality you are exploring.

Eko

(7,299 posts)
42. Talking with you is going nowhere.
Mon May 7, 2018, 11:10 PM
May 2018

It is my opinion that your beliefs are in no way on par with facts and science. You go ahead and give credence to the Creationists, anti-vaxxers, and climate deniers that their beliefs are just a valid as the "belief" of science. In my opinion that kind of thinking is what it monumentally wrong with our country.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
43. I didn't say their beliefs were just as valid
Mon May 7, 2018, 11:11 PM
May 2018

I said their beliefs were beliefs, which would seem to be pretty obvious.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
47. Like I said, we are defining science differently
Mon May 7, 2018, 11:37 PM
May 2018

And I don't really care what you call the two things. But one thing is a belief about physical reality and the other IS physical reality. And nothing in making this distinction gives credence to any erroneous beliefs about physical reality. A person may believe they can fly. It is a belief. They may jump off a building. Of course they will fall and probably die. So it's not a valid belief about reality. But there was nothing in anything you've said that requires beliefs or belief systems to be in any sense valid or corresponding to physical reality.

Eko

(7,299 posts)
46. And I didnt say you said they were just as valid.
Mon May 7, 2018, 11:25 PM
May 2018

only that you lend credence to them by saying that. If Science is a belief like you claim, then it becomes your opinion that one belief has more validity than another instead of saying that one is not a belief. Like I said, you give credence to their argument. Why? I'm not sure, but possibly because you want to elevate your belief to the level of science. As I said, talking with you is getting nowhere and its thinking like what you are espousing is what I believe has led us down this dark road we are on.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
48. I am not giving credence to anything
Mon May 7, 2018, 11:39 PM
May 2018

Wrong beliefs are still beliefs. Is there something that makes them not beliefs, other than the fact that they are wrong? Other beliefs are correct. Is there something about a correct belief that makes it not a belief?

Eko

(7,299 posts)
49. Wrong beliefs?
Mon May 7, 2018, 11:44 PM
May 2018

Thats just your opinion (or, ahem, belief) since facts and such don't matter. If only we had something that could show is the real truth.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
53. "Belief" and "opinion" are not always synonymous.
Tue May 8, 2018, 12:59 AM
May 2018

Do you believe the earth is round, or is that just your opinion? I assume you believe it to be true, and don't think it is a matter of opinion. I don't think it is a matter of opinion either. So stop saying "facts and such don't matter." Neither you nor I think that.

Tobin S.

(10,418 posts)
56. Science and religion are in two totally different realms of thought.
Tue May 8, 2018, 03:09 AM
May 2018

They can get along together unless you're trying to tell people the Earth is only 6000 years old and humans coexisted with dinosaurs. Al Gore, in the film An Inconvenient Truth, said that he thought that there was no conflict between science and religion, and that is true if you are not a fundie. You can be a promoter of scientific discovery and still be a religious person. That's probably where many Democrats are. The two can coexist in the same individual.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
60. But not really.
Tue May 8, 2018, 09:23 AM
May 2018

Most religions have claims about the origin of the universe. That's not their realm - that's the realm of science.

Most religions have claims about supernatural forces that can affect events in this universe. That's also the realm of science. If something can affect this universe, it can be observed and studied. Ergo, science.

Tobin S.

(10,418 posts)
62. Creation stories aren't meant to be taken literally.
Tue May 8, 2018, 12:02 PM
May 2018

I was reading a theologian by the name of David Bentley Hart who said that fundamentalist Christianity really wasn't popular until the 20th century. Religious texts are steeped in allegory and metaphor. It's usually fundamentalists that take the literal view, and I think that's wrong, too. For me, religion is about the interior world in the individual. That's how the people at my church practice. We are not evangelicals. As for miracles, who knows? I've had things that have happened to me that seem unexplainable and beyond coincidence, but there wasn't a scientist around to study it, and much of that kind of thing has to do with the interior world of the individual as well.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
64. "Creation stories aren't meant to be taken literally."
Tue May 8, 2018, 02:02 PM
May 2018
In U.S., 42% Believe Creationist View of Human Origins

That's a lot of people. More than just fundamentalists. But either supernatural things can affect the world (they are therefore within the realm of science) or they are not. Can't pick and choose as you see fit for alleged "miracles."

Tobin S.

(10,418 posts)
91. I can just report to you what happened.
Wed May 9, 2018, 02:22 AM
May 2018

There is no one who can verify it, and you’d just have to get ale my word for it. I’m sure you won’t. Like I said, it’s about the interior world. There is no way you can scientifically verify such things.im not I picking and choosing.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
94. Actually, there is a way.
Wed May 9, 2018, 08:48 AM
May 2018

If something can affect the physical world, it can be studied. And no, I have absolutely no reason to take your word on anything.

Can you define this "interior world" of yours? I have no idea what that means.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
66. Oh, they weren't?
Tue May 8, 2018, 03:12 PM
May 2018

Funny that pretty much everyone forgot about that for thousands of years, only to have us conveniently remember once science had the question of creation more or less in the corner pocket. Totes coincidental, I'm sure.

Tobin S.

(10,418 posts)
92. Trotsky just said 42% of Americans are creationists
Wed May 9, 2018, 02:26 AM
May 2018

Hart has studied theology for almost his whole adult life. I’ll take his word for it.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
93. I don't see that as particularly damaging to my argument.
Wed May 9, 2018, 08:44 AM
May 2018

If you want to take Hart's words for it, that's fine. You still have to reckon the "what should be" with "what actually is". Even if the creation stories were never intended to be taken literally, the fact of the matter is they are taken literally, and have been for much of their respective religions' existence.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
72. See the definition of belief
Tue May 8, 2018, 07:48 PM
May 2018

Definition of belief, Merriam Webster, Definition 3
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/belief

conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence, belief in the validity of scientific statements


Eko

(7,299 posts)
74. Here is the oxford.
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:02 PM
May 2018

1. An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
‘his belief in extraterrestrial life’
with clause ‘a belief that climate can be modified beneficially’

1.1 Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion.
‘we're prepared to fight for our beliefs’
mass noun ‘contrary to popular belief existing safety regulations were adequate’

1.2 A religious conviction.
‘Christian beliefs’
mass noun ‘the medieval system of fervent religious belief’

2 belief inTrust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something)
‘a belief in democratic politics’
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/belief

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
76. "something one accepts as true"
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:05 PM
May 2018

So you know that the earth is round, but don't accept that it's true?

Eko

(7,299 posts)
77. I think you missed the rest of that.
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:06 PM
May 2018
especially one without proof.
‘his belief in extraterrestrial life’

Eko

(7,299 posts)
75. Cambridge.
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:05 PM
May 2018

1.something believed; an opinion or conviction:
a belief that the earth is flat.

2.confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof:
a statement unworthy of belief.

3.confidence; faith; trust:
a child's belief in his parents.

4.a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith:
the Christian belief.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/belief

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
79. I'm not sure why you are just multiplying dictionary definition
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:15 PM
May 2018

I found at least one that uses it the way I am using it. Are you trying to tell me I can't use Merriam Webster, I have to use Oxford or Cambridge?

I am not sure where dictionary.com gets its defintions, but it doesn't appear to be Cambridge
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/belief#dataset-british

Anyway, thesaurus.com at the dictionary.com link says that knowledge is a synonym for belief, so I think that source backs up my definition as well.

Eko

(7,299 posts)
81. I must have posted the wrong one.
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:20 PM
May 2018

Regardless Cambridge backs mine up.
the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:
[ C ] philosophical beliefs
[ C ] He made no secret of his belief that she was guilty.
[ U ] I have no belief in magic.

Not all knowledge is science. I can know a lot about baseball pitchers, thats not science.

Eko

(7,299 posts)
83. You know what are some other synonyms for belief are?
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:24 PM
May 2018

assumption, faith, feeling, hope, notion, opinion.
You know what are some Antonyms for belief?
reality, fact, proof and truth.

Eko

(7,299 posts)
78. Neil deGrasse Tyson
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:14 PM
May 2018

"Science, he says, is objective. It’s not something that you believe or do not believe; it’s something that you accept or don’t accept. It remains true regardless of your personal beliefs."
https://futurism.com/neil-degrasse-tyson-belief/

As you previously said, it doesn't matter if you think you can fly, jump off a building and your beliefs meet science.

Eko

(7,299 posts)
70. And it is easily provable.
Tue May 8, 2018, 07:40 PM
May 2018

take some Binoculars, go to the beach, watch a ship sail away, guess which part starts to disappear first?

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
23. In the simplest sense it's a mental construct that defines the world around you.
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:36 PM
May 2018

Science isn't a belief system, but it can be used as a tool to explain the physical world.

Religion isn't a belief system, but it can be used as a tool to explain the physical world.

The first approach uses evidence and reason. The second uses faith.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
27. What is the difference between a mental construct that defines the world
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:41 PM
May 2018

And a tool to explain the world?

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
38. That analogy doesn't explain anything
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:57 PM
May 2018

Both houses and hammers are really tools. One is a tool to provide shelter. The other is a tool to drive nails. Aren't the only differences between the two just complexity and purpose?

Buzz cook

(2,471 posts)
52. False metaphor
Tue May 8, 2018, 12:17 AM
May 2018

A mental construct can be a tool. A nonphysical tool is a mental construct. Not sure exactly which logical error this is, but its obviously an error.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
33. Individual religions typically include a belief system
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:45 PM
May 2018

However I wouldn't agree that religion in and of itself is a belief system. It's more like a container that holds belief systems.

Eko

(7,299 posts)
36. definition.
Mon May 7, 2018, 10:48 PM
May 2018

a set of principles or tenets which together form the basis of a religion, philosophy, or moral code.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
40. Religion is far more encompassing
Mon May 7, 2018, 11:05 PM
May 2018

It typically includes dogma, customs and courtesies, culture, history, and several other aspects along with a belief system. Some adherents subscribe to one or more of those things, while rejecting the belief system. For instance, many people who consider themselves Unitarian Universalists, are atheists.

Voltaire2

(13,033 posts)
2. It is a term used here repeatedly in equivocation
Mon May 7, 2018, 09:25 PM
May 2018

fallacies in order to “prove” that religion and science are equivalent.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
86. I have a dodge, not an answer. So let's not pretend otherwise.
Tue May 8, 2018, 09:00 PM
May 2018

Seems to be par for the course that you virtually never provide a straight answer to a straightforward question.

The silver lining is your dodges provide far more useful information about intellect and state of mind.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
87. Your title explains it all.
Tue May 8, 2018, 09:04 PM
May 2018

It astonishes me that people can insist that what they claim to believe is somehow not a belief. As if expressing a concept using a negative construction makes that belief not a belief.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
61. See that's the most important point.
Tue May 8, 2018, 10:51 AM
May 2018

As a thread like this shows, there is no clear-cut "final" definition of what a belief system is. This makes it a uniquely helpful term for the theist looking to create false equivalence. So just like the dishonest among them do with the word "faith," they abuse the term in order to try and justify their religious beliefs. Or at least attempt to knock the pillars out from underneath science or atheism, oddly, by weakening those things to be "just another religion."

Eko

(7,299 posts)
4. There are many different types of belief systems,
Mon May 7, 2018, 09:45 PM
May 2018

some based on opinions and others on facts with evidence to back them up.

Buzz cook

(2,471 posts)
55. What is a belief?
Tue May 8, 2018, 01:31 AM
May 2018
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/belief


Definition of belief
1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

her belief in God

a belief in democracy

I bought the table in the belief that it was an antique.

contrary to popular belief

2 : something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion : something believed

an individual's religious or political beliefs

; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

the beliefs of the Catholic Church

3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

belief in the validity of scientific statements


We believe things for many reasons some good and some bad. We hold beliefs to different degrees of certainty from equivocal to fanatical.
I believe the boiling temperature of water at sea level is 100 degrees because it is a verifiable fact, I believe that my dog is the best dog because I like him and he seems to like me. I'm pretty sure that Cleveland will win the pennant, I'm mostly sure that the cube root of 27 is 3. Certainty is a whole kettle of fish on its own.

We can apply those beliefs alone or in combination to interact with other things. That interaction will be more or less effective depending on the validity of our beliefs and the thing it is interacting with and the environment it is interacting in.

My dog is the best dog is valid if the set of dogs is those in my house. the cube root of 27 is 3 not valid in binary math.

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy does not have an entry for "belief system".
https://plato.stanford.edu/
That leads me to believe that it has no set definition. So if there is no set definition, then the person bringing it up bears the burden of defining it for the purposes of the conversation.

But we have this.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1a00/10e05368c1fa4242473908ae7e9b2ed6538e.pdf

Belief systems are the stories we tell ourselves
to define our personal sense of Reality.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
58. "Belief" in a religious context means something different
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:55 AM
May 2018

It basically means you know something by faith alone. There are those here who think atheism requires the same kind of belief so as to support a false equivalency.

Buzz cook

(2,471 posts)
63. Still belief, just not for a very good reason.
Tue May 8, 2018, 12:39 PM
May 2018

If we have belief in things unseen as the bible recommends, then we still have belief the same as my belief in Boyles Law. The difference is foundational and in application.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
65. One of those things has a foundation in evidence and reason
Tue May 8, 2018, 02:39 PM
May 2018

So the differences are significant. I can formulate an infinite number of infalseable claims. Having faith makes them no more true than without.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
57. It's confusing because apologists have made it a keystone in some of their worst argumentation.
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:52 AM
May 2018

A belief system is pretty self-system is pretty self-explanatory: it is a system of beliefs. There are many types of belief systems. Religion is one type of belief system. It gets confusing because religious apologists treat their subtype as the general category... that is, they assume all belief systems are essentially qualitatively the same. That, for example, a political belief system based on empiricism and philosophy is not in the least bit different from a religious belief system based on the mad ramblings of an apocalyptic derelict who died two thousand years ago.

In totality, it goes something like this:

APOLOGIST: Are you a socialist?

SKEPTIC: Yes.

APOLOGIST: Well, socialism is a belief system just like Christianity (composition fallacy). So you're no better than me (tu quoque).



MineralMan

(146,308 posts)
59. It means whatever a person thinks it means at the time.
Tue May 8, 2018, 09:05 AM
May 2018

That's equivalent to it meaning nothing at all, in my opinion.

If I say that I follow my "belief system," without explaining that system in minute detail, nobody has any idea what I mean by that.

Also, some people consider Christianity to be a "belief system," but the thousands of individual denominations and doctrines of that general Religion are very different from each other.

So, it's just a generic term that means whatever the person wants it to mean, or nothing at all.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
95. Thanks, but I don't like how this discussion went
Wed May 9, 2018, 07:39 PM
May 2018

Everyone seems to have their idea of what a belief system is, even what a belief is, so I think it should be replaced by more specific terms.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
97. I thought I'd get a better idea of what makes something a true belief system
Wed May 9, 2018, 10:19 PM
May 2018

Last edited Wed May 9, 2018, 11:56 PM - Edit history (1)

As opposed to a bunch of random thoughts that we impose order on. But our brains are designed to look for order, even when there is none. That's why we see constellations in the sky and used them for astrology, because they thought the random placement of stars meant something.

So, if it were up to me, I'd ban the term "belief system," so that posters would have to say what they actually think about a topic, not assume that if there is a belief, it must be part of a "belief system."

On edit: Maybe when people say "belief system" they really mean "world view?"

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
98. And if we ask 100 people why they call themselves a Democrat,
Thu May 10, 2018, 07:52 PM
May 2018

we might receive 101 answers.

Various religious groups have general ideas about the essentials of being a "whatever", but we both know that when it gets to the level of individuals, that "whatever" can change.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
99. Actually that question was asked a few months ago in General Discussion
Thu May 10, 2018, 10:40 PM
May 2018

And many people agreed that the Democratic Party is the party that best reflects their positions and their values. But for belief systems, your only answer was that it refers to a formalized belief system and that if you are a Democrat, you might believe things that other Democrats believe. That answer is circular and vague. And IMO, nobody had any better answer. Such answers as were given were themselves based on vague or poorly defined terms where nobody came to agreement.

So I am kind of left with - everybody is said to have a belief system, but there is no agreement on what a belief system is. So I don't think I have one, and I won't have one until I get a reasonable definition. I have a world view, not a belief system. A world view is a comprehensive conception or apprehension of the world especially from a specific standpoint. My world view is pragmatic and existential. A lot of beliefs flows from that, but they don't necessarily form a system. Maybe some people will say that they must. But that could just be a function of the mind attempting to impose order on itself.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
101. My assertion isn't just about a name
Fri May 11, 2018, 06:27 PM
May 2018

But about the fact that "belief system" is too poorly defined to be useful. Also, the word "belief" is poorly defined, at least as used in this forum.

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