Religion
Related: About this forumDid the dying Stephen Hawking really mean to strengthen the case for God?
In his final paper on the multiverse hypothesis, the worlds best-known atheist made a supernatural creator more plausibleSource: The Guardian, by Philip Goff
Scientists have discovered a surprising fact about our universe in the past 40 years: against incredible odds, the numbers in basic physics are exactly as they need to be to accommodate the possibility of life. If gravity had been slightly weaker, stars would not have exploded into supernovae, a crucial source of many of the heavier elements involved in life. Conversely, if gravity had been slightly stronger, stars would have lived for thousands rather than billions of years, not leaving enough time for biological evolution to take place. This is just one example there are many others of the fine-tuning of the laws of physics for life.
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In Hawkings older version of the multiverse hypothesis, there is great variety among the laws in different universes. In some gravity is stronger, in some weaker, and so on. However, physicists have come to see problems with such a heterogenous multiverse, especially if the number of universes is infinite. We work out the predictions of a given multiverse hypothesis by asking how probable our universe is according to that hypothesis. But if there is an infinite number of universes, that question becomes meaningless. And hence in his final paper, A Smooth Exit from Eternal Inflation?, Hawking and his co-writer, Thomas Hertog, formulate strict limits to the kind of universes that populate the multiverse.
The problem is that the less variety there is among the universes, the less capable the multiverse hypothesis is of explaining fine-tuning. If there is a huge amount of variation in the laws across the multiverse, it is not so surprising that one of the universes would happen to have fine-tuned laws. But if all of the universes have exactly the same laws as in Hawking and Hertogs proposal the problem returns, as we now need an explanation of why the single set of laws that govern the entire multiverse is fine-tuned.
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There is still hope for a scientific account of fine-tuning. However, by ruling out one of the two scientifically credible options for doing this, Hawking and Hertog have slightly strengthened the alternative explanation in terms of God. It is ironic that the atheist Hawking should, in his final contribution to the science, make Gods existence less improbable.
Read it all at: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/07/stephen-hawking-god-multiverse-cosmology
longship
(40,416 posts)Theists never fail to use this lame assed excuse for their treading into the science domain and loudly stomping around, peeing in the corners to mark the territory, etc.
When science complains, they claim NOMA!!!
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)It is incumbent on the claimant to produce the evidence.
Precluding such evidence one merely adopts the null hypothesis. There is no creator. No need for one, either. Positing a creator is an unnecessary hypothesis. Okham's razor neatly slices it right off.
I gave the god of the gaps argument in the article all the seriousness it deserves.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)of ANY kind of proof regarding many scientific subjects, what sense does it make to dismiss out of hand just the one "hypothesis" that can make sense out of so much conjecture?
Doesn't scientific methodology consider a "hypothesis" to be valid until it is demonstrably proven to not be true?
longship
(40,416 posts)That's William of Okham (1285 - 1347 CE). Parsimony is one of the first principles in modern science.
One does not get to add hypotheses for no reason whatsoever. William's razor slices them right off.
The god of the gaps hypothesis makes no sense whatsoever. This is especially true because nobody has ever provided any kind of operational definition for god.
If people want to play in the science domain, we're going to hold them to the rules. The extent that folks ignore the rules or refuse to abide by them is the extent that they should be subject to ridicule.
We are not going to allow you to shoe-horn your gods into our scientific theories without supporting data. That just ain't gonna happen.
Sorry.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Great way to dismiss an argument!
Refuse to consider the possibility (that billions of the "obviously inferior" do!)
longship
(40,416 posts)You want to play? Everybody's welcome as long as they play by the rules.
What that means is that you don't get to shove god into every gap (real or perceived) of scientific knowledge.
Got it now? Consider that argument summarily dismissed.
Next?
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)A rigid fundamentalist approach, but, hey - you can believe anything you want!
longship
(40,416 posts)The god of the gaps argument is the absolutely, positively weakest argument theists employ. It also happens to be a very common one. It deserves only ridicule.
Another science rule. One doesn't get to just make shit up. In particular, this includes making up ones own rules.
You want to play science? First learn how it works, and how it doesn't. There's a few centuries of history of science one might want to read about. But I suggest beginning with 1800 CE and going forward.
Or view Jacob Bronowski's Ascent of Man, from the BBC (and PBS). That would be a well rounded start. Some of the science is out of date, but it holds up fairly well. It certainly holds up as to science history up to when it was filmed in the late 1960's CE.
That's another characteristic of science. Our theories change all the time, but to fit new data not for some capricious reason like accommodating some spooky god figure.
My best to you.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)So, you're a rigid fundamentalist driver if you stop at red lights. You're a rigid fundamentalist student if you don't use a crib sheet when you take an exam. You're a rigid fundamentalist employee if you show up to work on time. Etc.
longship
(40,416 posts)My response to OP was notably challenging as it should have been, given the argument presented.
This sort of thing always happens when a noted atheist dies. It happened with Carl Sagan. It even happened with Christopher Hitchens. It's a standard theist technique to speculate that the dead atheist just maybe wasn't really a non-believer. I am sure that is comforting to the theists, but atheists generally absolutely despise it.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)A hypothesis has to falsifiable, for one thing. And the God hypothesis is not falsifiable. To be falsifiable, you have to accept the evidence wherever it leads. Does the God hypothesis predict there are multiple universes all with the exact laws that cannot be explained by appeal to more fundamental laws? So if we find there is only one universe, there is no God?
Somehow I don't think you will agree with that. So whether there is one universe or many - God. If there is one set of physical laws or many- - God. If the physical laws we have can be explained by more fundamental laws or not - God. That is not falsifiable.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)I might agree.
But these are concepts thought out by some of our greatest minds, still considered valid today, by great thinkers today!
Just as science isn't limited by the unprovable, neither should we be.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Last edited Wed May 9, 2018, 09:34 PM - Edit history (1)
If it isn't formulated as a testable hypothesis, then it is inherently unprovable and therefore not science. Lots of scientific theories were thought of by great minds, but they are no longer believed because they were disproven by evidence. There is no comparable concept in religion that has been disproven and therefore nobody thinks is true today. From the scientific perspective, the fact that someone had a great idea about God thousands of years ago that is still believed today isn't a feature, it's a bug.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)still considered valid today, by great thinkers today!"
Great thinkers like Charlie H. Campbell, whom you have claimed is an authority on these matters?
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218268526#post32
longship
(40,416 posts)All hypotheses must be able to be falsified. In other words, there has to be a possible measurement that can render the hypothesis false. Failing that, the hypothesis itself fails.
Google Karl Popper.
There are many more rules, too. Theists have a tall climb indeed if what many of them think is science.
There are some theist scientists, but most of them abide by the rules. Biologist Kenneth Miller is a devout Catholic, for instance. Nobody would criticize him about it since his religious beliefs do not interfere with his science. He also is justifiably famous for his dogged and fierce opposition to Creationism and Intelligent Design. He has made multiple appearances in federal court on the side of science where he amusingly describes himself as a theist. He obeys the science rules and is a great science advocate. He doesn't make shit up to sneak his religious beliefs into science.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)NeoGreen
(4,031 posts)...and everything must fit in this box...
longship
(40,416 posts)Irrelevant to the article's (cited in the OP) god of the gaps argument.
Theists just know that their ever shrinking gods can be shoe-horned into the ever shrinking scientific gaps. It will really work this time. REALLY!!
Thanks for the Mugsy!
Snackshack
(2,541 posts)Many variations of these numbers across the universe.
Planets that are too close or too far from a star for the temperature to be able to allow for water to be in all three states. The Goldilocks Zone.
Planets of varying size/density that causes a higher or lower gravity incapable of holding an on to an atmosphere or can hold onto an atmosphere but is crushing such as Venus.
It is only reasonable that some planets would fall into the proper window of parameters that supports life as we know it in this planet. The extremophiles of life that we have found in the bottom of the Oceans or in the icecaps of the N. / S. Pole show us the assuming life can only be sustained in the temperatures and chemistry seen on the surface of Earth is too narrow there may very well be life on planets previously viewed as incapable of sustaining life but until we go there and look we wont know.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)the specific, unique, necessary conditions to create life. OUR life.
In infinite possibilities of infinite multiverses, it was a certainty.
As Hawking has hypothesized, much less likely this particular universal set of conditions would occur. Even in our now limited universe.
Ron Obvious
(6,261 posts)And neither did he.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)When things don't fit into your dogma, reject and dismiss them!
It's easy!
Ron Obvious
(6,261 posts)Science doesn't deal involve dogma and only dismisses things for which there is no evidence.
In the world of science, in sharp contradistinction to religion, we are permitted to change our minds at such time that evidence should be presented.
SharonClark
(10,014 posts)Mariana
(14,854 posts)He can now publish articles that ascribe imaginary positions and motives to Professor Hawking, and there is zero chance that Professor Hawking will correct him.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Stranger things have happened.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)he is speaking to us from beyond the grave...
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Has taken a very personal dislike to me, with much name-calling.
It's the internet.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Some even call it dialogue.
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)but the substance is what is important.
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)It appears so. How rude and arrogant!
Me.
(35,454 posts)they can't even change water into wine...