Question about "Jesus died for our sins"

[DetlefK]

Does that mean that due to Jesus' self-sacrifice our sins are preemptively forgiven?

Does that mean that people no longer go to hell for their sins?

[sprinkleeninow]

1. 'Hell' is the condition of being eternally distanced from God.

A condition when one can still experience His Love, but also having a void that will not be filled, a knowing that will not be satisfied.

Jesus became The Christ when He voluntarily ascended the Cross once and for all. He became the Atonement and the Second Adam , which was necessary to cancel out the iniquity of the First Adam.

'Sins' are 'pre-emptively' covered by His redemptive sacrifice. Conditionally though, in that one believes this gift as done/offered for his or her own benefit, acknowledges Him as Saviour, and finally enters into the life of the Faith [Church].

[DetlefK]

2. So, the sins are only preemptively forgiven if you believe in him.

But couldn't that be abused? You could sin all you want and stay out of hell anyways as long as you believe in him.

[sprinkleeninow]

3. It isn't to singularly 'believe' as I have outlined.

Unless you are close to expiring like the thief on the cross or someone on their deathbed. There are exceptions such as these.

Embracing the Faith, communicating with the fellowship of believers [the Body] and receiving the Mysteries [participating in the sacramental life of the Faith]. I can only speak on behalf of Eastern Orthodoxy.

[Major Nikon]

20. How do we know it was voluntary?

Other than the fact he didn't miracle himself off.

Followup question: Assuming he did volunteer, why did he have second thoughts after the fact?

[Mariana]

25. From the stories, it doesn't seem like it was all that voluntary.

He did just about every non-miraculous thing he could do to avoid crucifixion. He begged God to get him out of the jam he was in. He ordered his disciples not to resist when he was arrested, probably because he knew it would cause prejudice against him if they did fight. When he was questioned by the Jewish elders, by Pilate, and by Herod, he was evasive in his answers and took great care not to say anything to incriminate himself. He succeeded, too, since neither Pilate nor Herod found any reason to punish him and would have let him go. But by then, he'd thoroughly annoyed the Jewish leaders and much of the population. They wanted him gone, and they insisted he be executed.

[sprinkleeninow]

36. Bc He was fully man and fully God.

He had all emotions, etc. that His sisters & brothers would have. He had distress in His Spirit when people were infirmed, diseased, dying, dead. That's why He has complete understanding of what Creation experiences and so has compassion and great mercies towards it.

Answering from the position I'm in.

I got emotional just from writing that.

[Major Nikon]

43. Must have picked that up after the fact

Cuz He did some cold blooded shit in a previous life.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/gods-12-biggest-dick-moves-in-the-old-testament-1522970429

[rogerashton]

4. Noyes' "perfectionist" sect did feel that they could "sin" without penalty, I believe.

They formed the Oneida community. Their interpretation does seem to be quite exceptional, though.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/HNS/Cities/oneida.html

The American Universalist denomination held that all humans are ultimately saved, though one faction of Universalists believed in the punishment of sin in a period in Purgatory. Universalism merged with Unitarianism to form the Unitarian-Universalists society, which is officially noncredal. The Universalist denomination founded Tufts University and also St. Lawrence University, where my niece is on the faculty.

[Zoonart]

5. Very interesting...

I. had not know that this was the root of Unitarianism. Thanks!

[marble falls]

6. No. It means that Christ showed that a sin and sins can be be redeemed by accepting the grace.....

of Christ. After Christ we are no longer condemned by our sinful nature, but are are convicted and get forgiveness by recognizing our sinful nature, admitting it and seeking forgiveness. It is impossible to stop all sin but we work at it and do the best we can.

[wasupaloopa]

7. If I remember from Catholic School, we all inherited original sin from Adam and Eve and therefore

could not go to heaven. God sent his son Jesus who is also god to suffer and die to atone for original sin. After that you could be baptized and have original sin washed away and you could go to heaven provided you didn't commit any unconfessed mortal sins before you died.

I could never buy into all that

[3Hotdogs]

9. If I commit one of the sins but don't believe it is a sin, do I still get fried?

[wasupaloopa]

11. Probably not but you might grow hair on yor knuckles or go blind.

[3Hotdogs]

21. My dad caught me playing with myself. He told me I would go blind.

Me: "Dad, I'm over here." (Pointing to a different direction from where he was looking at me.)

[Pope George Ringo II]

14. And there, in a nutshell, is the reason so many insist on denying evolutionary theory

No Adam & Eve, no original sin, no need for the magic zombie, and the entire religion is simply irrelevant.

[wasupaloopa]

24. When I read Genesis now it is plain that it is mythology but there is a meaning.

The meaning to me is if you use your intellect you discover wondrous things and some not so wondrous things.

Like you are responcible for your actions and to a large extent what goes on in your life. So Eve chose to use her intellect (ate the apple) and learned that there was both happiness and suffering in life.


Now if you chose not to use your intellect (don't eat the apple) you can go blissfully along not taking responsibility for anything and just blaming it all on god's will. You don't have to care about anything but yourself. Also you get to offer thoughts and prayers when a bunch of kids get blown away in school by AR15's.

[3Hotdogs]

8. Patty Smith -- "Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine."

If God is perfect, why did he make flawed people, capable of sin in the first place? We're supposed to be here to praise God. If God needs or wants praise and prayers and our money, then he also wasn't perfect and complete in the first place.

Or instead of sin, followed by salvation, why didn't he just create a perfect human race and save his son from the suffering?

[Mariana]

39. Making "flawed" people was God's second failure

that the stories tell us about. His first was making a bunch of angels who got sick of his rule and tried to stage a coup d'état in Heaven.

[Pope George Ringo II]

40. Possibly both second AND third.

Depending on how you feel about the Lilith story and how much you want to separate it from the Forbidden Fruit idiocy. But the important thing is that evil and struggle are always a woman's fault.

[Major Nikon]

44. Not to mention he fucked the first volume up so badly it needed a 2.0

[Pope George Ringo II]

46. It's worse than that. Once you include the Utah crowd, it's the Desert Quadrilogy.

Jewish Adventures
Jewish Adventures II, the Return of the Jew
Jewish Adventures III, Mohammed's Revenge
Jewish Adventures IV, Jews in Space.

[NeoGreen]

10. Sin is a "christian" concept...

...I am not a christian, I have no sin, so the purported sacrifice of heyzus (merely a re-cast Hercules?) to keep me out of the mythical hell is without effect and his purported death was a wasted effort.

Not a compelling narrative and there is no real moral to be gleaned from the story, other than the perpetuation of the "blood sacrifice" meme, which as a concept is immoral in-of-itself.

[samnsara]

12. i could never get an answer for 'why'...

[Act_of_Reparation]

13. It means early Christians needed to explain how their omnipotent messiah got himself killed.

And that was the best they could do on such short notice.

[Major Nikon]

22. It may also be a convenient distraction from his other crimes

The morning the criminal Jesus was arrested, they found him with a nude young boy.

[Pope George Ringo II]

15. I think Doug Stanhope answered this best.

[Cartoonist]

16. Dungeons & Dragons

Think of it as a game. Everyone starts out with one sin even though they didn't do anything to deserve it. You continue to collect sins as the game goes on.

You can clear your soul of sins by accepting the Serpent Lord as your savior and by saying the appropriate prayers per sins committed. As long as your soul is empty, you can receive tokens in the form of flattened bread. (tokens have no redeemable value)

If you die with no sins you move up to the next level. (Purgatory)
In the original version, if you still had the first sin but no others, then you were transported to Limbo. (no longer supported by the Dungeon Master)

In level P, you must prove your fealty to Jesus. If sincere, you move up to the next level. (Heaven) If not sincere, then you are sent to the lowest level of the dungeon, even if you have no sins.

If you die with sins, you go straight to the lowest level. There is a cheat though. If you can claim fealty to Jesus, then it doesn't matter how many sins you have because Jesus covered for you on the cross.

[Pope George Ringo II]

17. I always felt the game model was more "Call of Cthulhu"

The underlying assumption that some things "man was not meant to know," you lose sanity by reading their texts, and so forth.

[NeoGreen]

18. The Elohim

The Elohim are one of the powerful pantheons on Earth. Three different major world religions—Christianity, Islam, and Judaism—worship its patron god as the creator of all existence. For all the power that it grants the Elohim, however, it also cripples them in ways that most pantheons have never had to deal with.

The founder of the Elohim, YHWH, was never meant to be his own god. Rather, he was a member of an earlier pantheon, one that existed when the earth was still young. During the reign of the Titans (Titanomachy), however, many of YHWH’s fellow gods fell before the weapons of the Titans; that is those who did not convert to the side of the Titans. When the war ended, YHWH was alone. Seeking stability in an untamed world, he appeared to a shepherd by the name of Abraham (Commoner 3), while appointing various spirits to the rank of angels to aid him in spreading his message.

YHWH made a promise, a Covenant, with the descendants of Abraham that they shall be his chosen and favored people. A covenant that YHWH has kept true to, more or less, with about as much benefit to the Chosen as random chance would yield.

Jesus was the first and only of his father’s Scions, created out of a necessity to bring the word of YHWH to the world. Jesus brought a message of redemption and hope to the world, while striking out at the sins he saw run rife through existence, especially amongst those who claimed to follow his father. In time, he gave his life to serve as a model to his father’s word, and ascended to Heaven to serve as YHWH’s right hand man.

Since YHWH’s collapse, however, Jesus has found himself in charge of running the Elohim. While the strain pulls at Jesus, he seems to be in no risk of falling to the dissonance that tore his father’s mind apart. After all, of the three major faiths that follow his father, only two regard Jesus as divine in any way, and one of them sees Jesus as a prophet, not as a godling. The stress of managing the world’s most widely-regarded pantheon means that Jesus does not visit Earth often. When he does, however, he usually puts himself in positions of change and peaceful resolution. He has been a civil rights spokesman, a hunger strike leader, a preacher, and an union representative. Those who describe meeting him recall him as a peaceful, even-tempered individual on the whole, though prone to moments where his temper got the better of him.

Jesus rarely produces Scions, but the few that exist usually follow in their father’s footsteps. They are kind, peaceful individuals who work to aid the downtrodden and the scorned of the world. Deep within them, however, lies an anger that can be fearsome to behold. While the titanspawn come face-to-face with this ferocity most often, the Scions of Jesus often make a spectacle of themselves by preaching hatred in their father’s name, either through words or through action.

Associated Powers: Epic Charisma, Epic Stamina, Guardian, Health, Prophecy, Psychopomp, Water, Zohar
Favored Attributes: Craft, Command, Empathy, Integrity, Melee, Presence
Rivals: Lucifer; Apollo, Amaterasu, Damballah, Odin, Tezcatlipoca, Thoth

[NeoGreen]

19. Jeebus saves...

...

[Lordquinton]

23. That's a huge can of worms

Wish it could be discussed in good faith.

[Eliot Rosewater]

26. The way I understand it, I can buy a weapon of war at my local

sporting goods store, cuz you know, FREEDUMB, and then I could use it to mow down 300 children at the local playground and as long as I come to Jesus right before the cops shoot me, all is good.

[Pope George Ringo II]

29. They make a big deal out of it working for Constantine.

Some seem quite proud of a bad man playing their god for a moronic sucker.

[Major Nikon]

45. It gets even better

You can rape your child, sell them into slavery, and/or murder them for cursing you and not commit a sin at all with no need to repent for anything(other than to the state at your sentencing hearing).

[ExciteBike66]

27. If I recall correctly

your sins are pre-emptively forgiven ONLY IF you accept Jesus as savior and are remorseful.

Thus, even Hitler might be in heaven if he had done that prior to blowing his brains out.

[applegrove]

28. Jesus died for your sins. We are all sinners. There is good and bad in all

of us. Don't scapegoat as you are sinful too.

[NeoGreen]

30. I am not a "sinner"...

...only 'christians' should be labeled as 'sinners'.

"Sin" is a christian concept, keep it there, where it belongs.

Your post is not cool bro', don't assume or apply christian labels onto those where it doesn't apply.

[Pope George Ringo II]

32. Talk of sin is what happens when you let the engrams build up.

People stop talking about it once they're Clear.

[Pope George Ringo II]

31. You know that part of marketing where you invent a need the customer didn't know he had?

That's what "sin" is. Nobody had it because it doesn't exist.

[NeoGreen]

33. The analogy I've heard is...

..."Imagine someone who walks up to you, cuts you with a sharp blade, chastises you for bleeding and then tries to sell you a band-aid."

That's the whole modus operandi of 'christianity' in a nut-shell.

[applegrove]

34. When people think they are all virtuos they project their bad onto

others. Otherwise known as scapegoating. Jesus tried to stop that. For sure there was a need to stop scapegoating in ancient cultures.

[Pope George Ringo II]

35. That "sin" nonsense predates the magic zombie by a long time.

It's despicable. Always was, always will be.

[NeoGreen]

37. Isn't jesus the ultimate...

...scapegoat?

[applegrove]

38. Yes. That is why he did it. So people would live in harmony. And accept that there

is good and bad in all of us. And be better able to have empathy. Keep in mind most people did not read back then. Their minds were not open by books. If they felt like blaming someone for bad weather they did.

[NeoGreen]

41. So, scapegoating...

...is what it is all about? Built into the narrative?

High quality theology, that is.

Oh, and "off"

[Mariana]

42. Jesus wanted people to live in harmony?

Not according to the stories, he didn't. For example:

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.” Matthew 10 : 34–37